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American Fundamentalism

By Noam Chomsky at Jan 05, 2005

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There are studies, often, asking people whether religious beliefs are "very important" to them, how often they attend religious services, etc. There are also interesting studies relating intensity of religious belief (by such measures) with economic development. It turns out that there is a very close correlation: the more developed the society, the lower the intensity of religious belief. The United States, alone in the studies I have seen, is completely off the chart, with far higher religious commitment than predicted by level of development. Canada is somewhat off the chart in the same direction. You can find some statistics and discussion in an important study by Walter Dean Burnham, a very well-known and respected political scientists, in Ferguson and Rogers, eds., Hidden Election. As for "fundamentalism," if we are using the term in a narrow technical sense, then I suppose one could say that the US is perhaps the only fundamentalist country, since the concept was invented here, by American Protestants, about a century ago, to distinguish themselves from "liberal Protestants." All other uses are metaphoric, analogic, and highly subjective. That's true in the press, journals of opinion, and most of scholarship. It is often used to refer to extreme religious belief, sometimes to militant religious belief. In any event, there cannot be research into the question... There could be research into specific beliefs: belief in creationism (in the US, about almost 50% -- about a quarter believe in evolution, and most of the rest are not sure or lean towards creationism), belief in the devil (in the US, 70%), etc. I don't know of comparative studies on this (which would require translation into other belief systems), but it's generally assumed that one would have to go very far from the industrial societies to find comparable results.

Comment On This Blog Post  See All Comments (224)

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the old old conflict

By Kissenger, Clark at Oct 09, 2006 07:34 AM
i really feel we need to put our differences aside when it comes to the issue of religion. atheists, christians, hinduists, muslims, etc., can all work together towards one goal. the worst is when one tries to "prove" the other wrong. its is literaly impossible. a shift in thinking that profound is an intimate one. there are many of us out there who don't judge individuals based on their belief system. i happen to believe in God. i have very good friends who span the whole spectrum of beliefs from atheist to Hinduist Khali devotee. they are practical and wise people. the issue of religion rarely comes up, and when it does, there is no spite, and there is equal respect to the other's beliefs. there are many of us, and i mean people in general, who have alot in common, but it's a shame that we can't see the parallels through the differences to work together, and both atheists and people who believe in God are guilty of blocking positive energy flow. there's people from all belief systems who are sick of Bush, or have similar feelings on the environment, but can't pull together. i believe strongly in the separation of church and state. i'm for fairness for all. i like to respect people's convictions, just as i like to have mine respected.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Goodtimesc222, Samstar at Oct 28, 2005 23:09 PM
We wrote some of the comments attributed to "Bwong." We did not write the first summary, but, substantially, two of the paragraphs only were in our comment. The material in Jan 6 3:33 PM was in our [same-not later] comment, but spellchecked. The material quoted is our un-spell-checked first attempt. We made one followup, the one sentence quantum physics comment. We made no comments at all about sex-as differentiated from feminism, beyond the complex numbers comment, which has been rewritten, or anything about a NYT? publication or following, or any "War" etc. The last two comments, on pigs, Jewish food prohibitions etc. are forgeries entirely. Are you folks blogging to death, and essentially "Making crazy and lazy"-and "anti-ethnicity" , any criticism of corporate research?-and the critics also???? Samstar. PS: The date of post is also substantially wrong-and back-dated.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By K, Mr at Feb 07, 2005 06:39 AM
theological dialogues the only way to attack this type of fundamentalism. Bush and his clan need this form of therapy. Which bible does he read?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By K, Mr at Feb 06, 2005 22:01 PM
Here's the response to American fundamentalism click this link and see what other countries are doing to redirect fundamentalists in the 'true' direction towards peace. This is what American fundamentalists in power need to have done to them. Where's the pope when ya need him? http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0204/p01s04-wome.html

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By K, Mr at Feb 02, 2005 18:53 PM
Well one believes in existence on whatever metaphysical yadda here we go again religion the best fiction yet! I'll debate god when i see him and that day is far to come and pray when i do see him he pats me on the back for my lame attempt for glory in the freemarket neo-liberal economic system that his 'flock' has created for me to live in. no matter what i do god forgives me so i'll put the jesus crew on the back burner cause lord knows he's too busy keeping track of his flock in iraq. One thing for sure maybe we should bring back zeus or athena or how about gumbo. give me a break i've seen enough of how many centuries of wars over which lordship prays to which saint and version of prayer. enoughs enough how about praying for our atmosphere and lets stop the bickering. spaceship earth is breaking down scotty and the neo-cons are laughing all the way to the bank. are our new gods elites? Bush speaks to god no? what exactly does bush say to god if he does speak to him? is that the same god as the budda? what's islam's god thinking right now? Hey who made those gods? what qualifications do these gods have? are they educated?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Jautter, Mind at Jan 26, 2005 21:09 PM
Thomas Edison invented the light bulb before electricity existed.Sound preposterous? In the Bible,it states that God created plants before He created the sun. Sounds like the same thing to me. God endowed man with the ability to reason. A religeous person will accept this as true. Man gave man faith. "God told me to write the Bible,the Koran,ect...,trust me." Yet, when reason,given by God, conflicts with faith,which comes from man,a religeous person will choose faith every time.Do we really want a religeous person in the Whitehouse? We do if we have faith!

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Provocateur, Agent at Jan 22, 2005 19:15 PM
I forgot to add to the above that the "hero" Oliver North was featured in his program once as a speaker and at one point Ollie says, "They are all corrupt!" What nerve!

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Provocateur, Agent at Jan 22, 2005 19:14 PM
I was watching the religious network (TBN) one day because I was feeling sad and I wanted a good laugh and I saw preacher John Hagee of Cornerstone church in Texas who weighs about 250-315 lbs. Now, I do not like to make fun of people's physical shortcomings but this preacher has it coming. He was ranting and raving about Amerika's sins and he, at one point, says: "Gluttony is a sin. I repeat gluttony is a sin. Some of you can't have your picture taken unless it is from an aerial shot."

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 19, 2005 23:58 PM
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 19, 2005 16:37 PM
From the Tao Te Ching, channeling the Sermon on the Mount, a selection advising against rigid fundamentalism of any kind: 76. AGAINST TRUSTING IN STRENGTH Man is born gentle and supple. At death, his body is brittle and hard. Living plants are tender, and filled with life-giving sap, but at their death they are withered and dry. The stiff, the hard, and brittle are harbingers of death, and gentleness and yielding are the signs of that which lives. The warrior who is inflexible condemns himself to death, and the tree is easily broken, which ever refuses to yield. Thus the hard and brittle will surely fall, and the soft and supple will overcome.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Uncommonbooks, Lateral at Jan 19, 2005 09:43 AM
In answer to overt enigma: the influence of Fundamentalisn on US policy is the same as that old cliche about power corrupting and absolute power corrupting absolutely.......ie. Christianity is used as an excuse or a reason for certain policy platforms but that doesn't necessarily correlate with any genuine Christian doctrine. Trying to rid the world of 'evil' by killing people is a contradiction in terms, and contrary to the spirit of Christ's teachings.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 00:23 AM
Gentlemen (Bwong, Lateral and postman) Let us not digress from the essence of this subject - that is, the influence of fundamentalists and US Policy. It is easy, and very dangerous, to become diverted and enter into a debate about the existence of God as well as the finer points of Christian ideology. Although very interesting subjects, let us not indulge any further on these topics. Bwong - please show a little tolerance for those that have a belief in God if you do not. Neither position is correct or incorrect, but can cause a great deal of unwarranted animosity.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 18, 2005 20:33 PM
"No there is no proof God exists but the reality of the universe tells me the real question is it is a caring loving God." How so? Nature's claw and teeth are red with blood. Just think of the Tsunamei in South East Asia. "Love" is a brain sensation based in chemistry and electricity. It does feel nice but God has nothing to do with it.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 18, 2005 17:09 PM
In my reading I've encountered a distinction (both academic and historical) between Philosophical Taoism, Religios Taoism, and De-based or Alchemical Taoism. I tend to approach Christianity as a philosophy though its manifestations are overwhelmingly religious. The difference? The religious Taoists say that Lao Tzu turned into a dragon and rose to heaven. The very idea is anathema to the Taoist philosophy. Likewise, a mythology of Jesus has had two thousand years to develop. If we believe Dostoevsky's take on the Grand Inquisitor, the Faith's adherents abandoned Christ long ago in preference for an imagined (and more useful on earth) deity.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Uncommonbooks, Lateral at Jan 18, 2005 11:06 AM
A friend of mine makes the distinction between 'Churchianity' and 'Christianity'. The former are more interested in sunday 'worship', and the latter in the essence of the 'gospel' and 'faith' (ie. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen"). Christianity can't necessarily be judged by the actions of its adherents, such as Pres. Bush 2nd.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 16, 2005 02:42 AM
"This only is denied to God: the power to undo the past." - Agathon

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 16, 2005 01:41 AM
Every man is guilty of all the good he didn't do. Voltaire

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 13, 2005 22:31 PM
As for the hypothetical what if, for me “enlightenment” or “pure objectivity” or “salvation” or what ever we want to call the experience of being rescued from ourselves doesn't really interest me. I enjoy the struggle of life. For me that is what defines the human experience. This whole idea of elevation from suffering doesn't ring true. Maybe that is the American in me. I like the pursuit of happiness better than the achievement of it. I guess I ultimately don't believe pure happiness is possible. So for me contentment with struggle, perhaps even enjoyment of struggle is most rewarding. Which dose not mean I think human competition is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Ultimately I don't think its winning which against each other that is rewarding, but rather winning together. Struggling against death. My moral code is rooted in the idea that life for most people sucks. That it is more efficient to work together for a common good than to work alone at others peoples expense. That reaching a common goal is there for morally superior to reaching that goal while others do not.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 13, 2005 22:31 PM
“Objectivity is possible in reflection or pure observation but when it comes to action I think our limitations express themselves” I totally agree “I don't think it is constructive to say subjectivity is fatal.” Neither do I. Subjectivity opens one up to risk. As you point out for right now some amount of subjectivity is unavoidable. “One might offer that abandoning subjectivity rescues one from death (i.e. "those who hate their life shall keep it") but I would counter that retreating into full-blown objectivity is a sort of death in itself.” Which beings us to this point. Since subjectivity is unavoidable, and pure objectivity is unattainable, loosing our subjectivity seems to me to be rather unlikely and therefore pursuing objectivity seams to me rather risk free.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 13, 2005 01:11 AM
Subjectivity may be a fatal flaw (compared to more permanent fixtures such as energy and matter) or a structural failing, but it also appears to be the defining characteristic of the human experience. You can't watch the movie and be in the movie at the same time, and the movie is an entirely different thing for the characters caught up in it. They don't know what is around the corner. Objectivity is possible in reflection or pure observation but when it comes to action I think our limitations express themselves. I don't think it is constructive to say subjectivity is fatal. It is inescapable unless one adjourns from the world, in which case survival is questionable. One might offer that abandoning subjectivity rescues one from death (i.e. "those who hate their life shall keep it") but I would counter that retreating into full-blown objectivity is a sort of death in itself. What could be worse than being buried alive within one's own body? (Just thinking out loud so salt liberally)

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 13, 2005 00:50 AM
I think you're on the mark (nohope). The Jews were caught in a vice and gradually diminished. They held out just enough hope to try and persevere a little longer, unaware that (for many) there was no light at the end of that dark tunnel.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 13, 2005 00:15 AM
“An excellent example would be the jews in WWII.” I was thinking of suicide not genocide. The situation of Jews in Europe I think illustrates an inherent human conflict between two aspects of “the survival instinct” The one is the instinct to fight for ones life against all odds when death is imminent, and the other is the instinct to adapt for long term survival or until a statistically opportune time to change ones position. The Holocaust knowingly manipulated these two instincts to keep the Jews in a position were death was almost inevitable. Fighting requires a significant amount of time, organization, and know how. The European Jews simply were not prepared at the time for the series of events that ended in their extermination. I don't think it's accurate to say they choose death.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 12, 2005 23:56 PM
Good Point - An excellent example would be the jews in WWII.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 12, 2005 23:52 PM
“We act to survive - that is our nature.” Of course some people don't act to survive, some people choose to die.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 12, 2005 23:40 PM
While we as humans may be wired to have every thing have an answer, having an answer doesn't seem to me to always be critical. Regarding our question of faith, my view is that having an answer for the sole reason of having one can be ultimately self-defeating. Sometimes, it think the best answer is “I don't' know.” There is a question of morals/ethics that arises, and some people use this as an argument to justify religion. I think “Morality : An Introduction to Ethics” by Bernard Williams, articulates how one could begin to discover empirical, rational, and objective morality. Morality not as the subjective set of tenants in a given book or religious framework, but rather Morality as it is understood universally by all “moral agents.”

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 12, 2005 23:39 PM
“If we were stripped of subjectivity, then what purpose would we have to act at all? Wouldn't complete objectivity paralyze us as individuals? Even if we adopt a detached view, we experience that detachment subjectively, no?” I don't know. I'm not so sure that purpose really exists outside of a context. Often I think those contexts are constructed. i.e. I can tell you what the purpose of my fridge is, but the purpose of my life requires me to pinpoint a set of goals first. For me my purpose, what I strive for, is to live life consciously, pursue happiness (find the silver lining in all things) and respect others rights to do the same.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 12, 2005 23:00 PM
We act to survive - that is our nature. Our nature dictates all that we do or fail to do.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 12, 2005 22:44 PM
"...a structural failing in the human organism, our subjectivity." I think that's what 7Natures was getting at too, but how could that be a structural failing? or a "fatal flaw"? If we were stripped of subjectivity, then what purpose would we have to act at all? Wouldn't complete objectivity paralyze us as individuals? Even if we adopt a detached view, we experience that detachment subjectively, no? I have more questions than answers on this point, obviously. I think there's a healthy balance to be found between personal subjectivity and expanded subjectivity. In other words, exercising the proper degree of empathy towards others as well as towards oneself.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xyzak, Xyzak at Jan 12, 2005 18:22 PM
Just to follow up on the question of social mobility in europe ... it is this way because europeans (east, west and mediterranean) are grown into their local communities and have strong ties with their family - it is not uncommon for 2 generations to share the same house. Furthermore, elderly people are not perceived as a burden.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 12, 2005 17:50 PM
Now clearly as stated earlier there is no need to do this with every action. As I learn that there is a high probability that x remain constant, I work with that. Every time I act on x I am also retesting it, so the probability of a similar outcome becomes likely. But lets face it, as we go through life reexamining what we believe we know can save our lives or drastically increase the quality of our lives, by reviling overlooked hidden costs or benefits which were obscured by bias or faulty samples or for any number of reasons. So not trusting, not having faith, has considerable benefits because it allows us to overcome a structural failing in the human organism, our subjectivity.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 12, 2005 17:49 PM
Postman- don't feel stupid. We are talking about faith after all and there is an inherent problem in these types of discussions that people really aren't committed to working out what is true, but rather in supporting their belief system. That is as true of atheists as any other faith group. “I suppose "trust" would be more accurate, in the sense that we must trust said empirical evidence to remain constant.” I would agree that faith and trust are very similar and I think interchangeable ideas. But consider the question of trust. I don't trust that empirical evidence to remain constant, because I know for a fact that it does not. If I get drunk my since of judgment, my empirical abilities get compromised. That is true also if I presume an outcome. Things are not always how they seem at first glance. So to not have faith means that I constantly test what I believe to be true.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 12, 2005 16:47 PM
nohope: you're right, my analogy was absurd and "faith" isn't the proper word for what I was trying to describe. I suppose "trust" would be more accurate, in the sense that we must trust said empirical evidence to remain constant. Since we can't spend all our time proving our basic assumptions, we trust that a proof, once established, is stable enough to be taken for granted. Bottom line: I shot an air ball. Thanks for the correction.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 12, 2005 16:41 PM
"Thanks for proving my point. Ignore the ignorance in the mirror and envangalize your flawed version of reality." I'm sorry, what was your point again? That I'm ignorant? Aren't we all? Doesn't that go without saying? Do we communicate in spite of that fact? Or would you rather we all just shut up until you call on us to speak? As for evangelizing, I don't presume to have all the answers. You're the one who seems so eager to share your gospel truth.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 12, 2005 16:33 PM
bwong: kill 'em with kindness ;) guess I went off the rails myself, no offense intended. my eyes glazed over at your Nazi allusion and Bush=moron remark, coupled with the magic udder creation tale I was a little befuddled. I'll try to keep it constructive from here on out.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 12, 2005 01:48 AM
“When you step out of bed in the morning I'd imagine you take it for granted that the floor will be a solid and not a liquid.” Yes but that is not a result of faith, it is a result of empirical experience. If I had to use faith for every action I probably wouldn't live very long, because every action would seem like my first. I would literally not know if I am about to make my next strip on earth or water and so it would be just a matter of time before I fall off a cliff or drown or worse. “It's not really a matter of having or not having, it's just a selective application.” In so much as I rely on faith I am making a gamble with out any information to tell me what my odds are. Say you flip a coin. Heads I live, tails I die. Faith is believing I will get heads and live. But knowledge is knowing that I have a fifty fifty chance of living of dieing. If I know that I will avoid flipping the coin at all unless I have no other choice. But if I have faith that I will get heads, chances are I will get tails and die.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 12, 2005 01:47 AM
“Nohope, I would guess you are not very happy. Right?” That is a very pure assumption on your part. I'm one of the most content people you may ever meet. “nohope: We all have faith to an extent. If you were completely devoid of faith you wouldn't be able to breath. I mean, you do have faith that there's oxygen in that air, don't you?” No. That is absurd. Breathing in an automatic physiological action. I breathe unconsciously. If I make a choice it would by default be to not breath, as soon as I get distracted however I would begin breathing again, it dose so coincidentally whether there is oxygen or not, whether the environment I am in is toxic or not.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 12, 2005 01:44 AM
Hello, Postman, I must admit that after reading the drivels by Katsteeven and realpc I am getting a bit tipsy. The purpose of by "dumb ass" posts is to throw in a bit of multicultural perspective. Even if there is a compelling reason to believe in religions and myths(which I don't see any), either for ontological or psychological reasons, there is no reason why Christianity has to be the religion of choice as many here seem to assume. Even among mystical/religious world views, the Jedeo-Christain-Islamic tradition doesn't strike me as especially insightful or interesting. Sorry to disappoint.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 12, 2005 01:04 AM
Postman - you almost learned something. TOO BAD YOU are so fatally flawed. Thanks for proving my point. Ignore the ignorance in the mirror and envangalize your flawed version of reality.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 12, 2005 01:01 AM
"So do joining some radical Nationalist movement or the Nazi storm trooper." Or how about the radical left?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 12, 2005 00:39 AM
Geez wong, most of your posts were pretty sharp but the last few you come off like a dumb ass. Are you drunk? bored?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 11, 2005 23:40 PM
"Believing in God can simply mean the feeling we are part of something greater." So do joining some radical Nationalist movement or the Nazi storm trooper. Extreme nationalism and religious fanaticism may share a common root. Now both are embodied in Bush the moron. Aren't it lovely?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 11, 2005 22:02 PM
Opps, I meant "the world is begeted by the name that cannot be named and the way that cannot be described."

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 11, 2005 22:00 PM
"The way that can be described is not the true way; the name that can be named is not the true name. The world is begeted by no name that can be named and the way that cannot be described" ..my translation of LaoTze The way I supposed is something like the Greek's logos. Now that is mystical thought. The bible is just low graded soap opera.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 11, 2005 21:55 PM
As far as mystical thought and metaphors go, the bible is rather inferior in the genre. Here is a Nordic creation myth(according to Salman Rushdie) that blows the bible away. Here is it: Before all time and beyond all space there was a bottomless ocean. At the bottom of the bottomless ocean there was a sleeping cow. The sleeping cow was having a nighmare, as she struggles her udder rubs against itself. Out of this rubbing motion the universe is born. Now this is poetry! In fact it has more "literal truth" than creationism. According to quantum field theory the particles that made up the world are actually vibration modes of some basic set of quantum fields, kind of like the vibrational motion of the udder as it rubs against itself.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 20:32 PM
nohope: We all have faith to an extent. If you were completely devoid of faith you wouldn't be able to breath. I mean, you do have faith that there's oxygen in that air, don't you? When you step out of bed in the morning I'd imagine you take it for granted that the floor will be a solid and not a liquid. It's not really a matter of having or not having, it's just a selective application.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 20:27 PM
"Most Christians, except those with limited education, do not take the bible literally." I disagree. Most of the practicing christians I know are unable to reconcile the world of the bible to the real world. When they tire of trying to do so they either abandon the faith or throw reason to the wind and adopt a literal interpretation. Reality goes bye-bye.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 20:18 PM
"Human thought is fatally flawed by human nature." Thus spake 7Natures. Perhaps you're right, but then again since you're human I suppose your point is fatally flawed so pardon me if I ignore you. We're not perfect but we can still try to use our brains.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 20:16 PM
"So you are saying that people like me who have not faith in anything are insane?" Nohope, I would guess you are not very happy. Right?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 20:15 PM
"if we taken fiction literally then we are adjusting reality to fit our imagination and not the other way around" Most Christians, except those with limited education, do not take the bible literally. The stories are metaphors that point to something inexpressible.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 11, 2005 20:00 PM
“Believing in God can simply mean the feeling we are part of something greater. You can develop a habit of faith which can gradually (or suddenly, I guess) enlarge your perspective. There is probably no sane human being that doesn't have some kind of faith in something. An atheist might have faith in Marxism, or in scientific progress, for example.” realpc- So you are saying that people like me who have not faith in anything are insane? Either you are wrong, or I am insane or inhuman, because I have not faith in anything.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 11, 2005 19:18 PM
Look in the Mirror. That is a supreme example of what a closed minded human looks like - a universal truth. Human thought is fatally flawed by human nature.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 18:22 PM
rEALPC: Just to clarify...being close-minded doesn't make one an atheist, just as being an atheist wouldn't necessarily mean one was close-minded. They're separate qualities. It's actually a close-minded view that you're expressing. One's views may be consistent with atheism or materialism or conservativism or leftism but that doesn't make them a known or predictable quantity. The terms are descriptive to an extent but I think you're employing them to initiate a description. "A is an atheist, therefore..." It's a deductive approach. Perhaps I'd be more comfortable with your reasoning if you provided substantive examples of said closed-mindedness. I too need tangible stories to bolster my faith :D

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 18:08 PM
"I think the stories made up about God help believers focus on the larger reality." Perhaps, but made up stories only lend focus to the larger reality if they are taken metaphorically. Obviously, if we taken fiction literally then we are adjusting reality to fit our imagination and not the other way around (and that's something akin to insanity).

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 18:03 PM
rEALpc: "...atheists can focus in on problems but have trouble getting perspective." "[cHOMSKY] cannot stop and question his own reasoning or see it from a different angle." Are you unable to stop and question this particular reasoning? Does that make you an atheist? A radical leftist? You're throwing around a lot of labels and assumptions. It doesn't contribute much to the dialogue here, other than fog.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 15:42 PM
I think the stories made up about God help believers focus on the larger reality. I don't belong to any organized religion and to me the stories seem silly, but I don't judge those who believe them. I think faith is easier when you have tangible stories. I don't know anything about God that could be said in words. Chomsky may be slightly more open-minded than most of the radical left in at least acknowledging there may be something we don't understand. But dismissing all believers as stupid is not very intelligent. And I am pretty sure Chomsky is a materialist with a closed mind about anythjing non-physical.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 11, 2005 04:48 AM
"Once you have decided to believe in God, you see and feel evidence of its reality" realpc If you stare at a blank wall long enough you will see funny little patterns. Your diatribes against Chomnsky is just your usual strawman. You have no clue about his philosophy. Chomsky the arch "rationalist" is in fact quite unusual among scientists in that he explicitly says he thinks there are built in limits to what we can know because of the way our mind is wired up.According to Chomsky there are genuine "mysteries" which are not answerable by science(therefore unknowable) For example, he speculates human consciousness may be one such mystery. The point is what do you do when you are confronted with a mystery. Do you acknowledge it is a mystry and be marvelled and intrigued or do you invent some lousy story to try to "explain" the mystery away? Believers don't have a monopoly on "spiritualism". " I would rather live without answers than to believe in answers that are wrong"--Richard Feynman.

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By Shannon, James at Jan 11, 2005 04:08 AM
And you can't see your own christian focus and how you cannot stop and question your own reasoning.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 04:02 AM
Feeling connected to a greater mind can give you perspective and freedom from your own limited consciousness. I'm not sure if this is always true, but I have noticed that atheists can focus in on problems but have trouble getting perspective. Chomsky's writing is an example of this. He has so much faith in his own rational process, he cannot stop and question his own reasoning or see it from a different angle.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 03:59 AM
Once you have decided to believe in God, you see and feel evidence of its reality. Some people cannot believe in God because they can't submit to authority, or can't experience themselves as merely a part of something greater. Some people can't imagine a mind greater than human consciousness and rationality.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 03:55 AM
God is something that we can't possibly understand. It doesn't make sense to criticize the God described in the bible because that is just a human conception of something authoritative and powerful. God does not have to be outside the universe; maybe the universe is God. The world we can perceive with our senses, or technology, has to be a very small part of what actually exists.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 03:48 AM
Believing in God can simply mean the feeling we are part of something greater. You can develop a habit of faith which can gradually (or suddenly, I guess) enlarge your perspective. There is probably no sane human being that doesn't have some kind of faith in something. An atheist might have faith in Marxism, or in scientific progress, for example.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 01:58 AM
That aside... Thanks to bwong for leading an interesting conversation. Sorry I missed it.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 01:55 AM
I personally find it hilarious that you're posting comments on Noam Chomsky's blog about how we're here to reject Satan and give God some much needed lovin. If we are "created" in his image then why don't we allow others to torment our pets in order to reap the satisfaction of having them "choose" us as their masters? Or why don't our sports coaches torture their players when they lose a game? Seems to me the only humans imitating your god are those in positions of power with the latitude to abuse it. You'll probably take that personally and I apologize, but I do hope you realize at some point that you are deluding yourself and when you're sick you shouldn't be spreading it around.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 01:41 AM
to katstevens: I can appreciate where you're coming from since I too found myself in need of a savior at one time and you're right that rationalism can lead to a frightening outlook, but the point is this - Do we succumb to fear and close our eyes, or do we brace ourselves and courageously face to world we find ourselves thrown into? Kurt Vonnegut often remarks that none of us asked to be here in the first place...and that all of this was going on long, long, long before we arrived so we shouldn't expect to master/understand it all...

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 01:37 AM
(LASTLY) Who wrote the Bible? Current scholarship, to my knowledge, assumes that the material that constitutes the Old Testament was put together from various oral and folk traditions (many of them going far back) in the Hellenistic period. That was one of several currents, of which the collection that formed the New Testament was another. Biblical archaeology was developed early in this century in an effort to substantiate the authenticity of the Biblical account. It's by now generally recognized in Biblical scholarship that it has done the opposite. The Bible is not a historical text, and has only vague resemblances to what took place, as far as can be reconstructed. For example, whether Israel ever existed is not clear; if so, it was probably a small kingdom somewhere in the hills, apparently virtually unknown to the Egyptians. That's my understanding, from casual reading; I haven't followed recent work closely.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 01:36 AM
(CONTINUED) Anyway, without clarification of a kind I have never seen, I don't know whether I believe or don't believe in whatever a questioner has in mind. I don't see how one can "believe in organized religion." What does it mean to believe in an organization? One can join it, support it, oppose it, accept its doctrines or reject them. There are many kinds of organized religion. People associate themselves with some of them, or not, for all sorts of reasons, maybe belief in some of their doctrines.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tikitikitumboo, Postman at Jan 11, 2005 01:34 AM
A MESSAGE FROM mR. cHOMSKY (C/O aGENT pROVACATEUR): Do I believe in God? Can't answer, I'm afraid. I'm not being flippant, but I don't understand the question. What is it that I am supposed to believe or not believe in? Are you asking whether I believe there is something not in the universe (or the universes, if there are (maybe infinitely) many of them), and that somehow stands above them? I've never heard of any reason for believing that. Something else? What? There are many concepts of spirituality, among them, various notions of divinity developed in the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religions. Within these the concepts vary greatly. St. Augustine and others, for example, argued that one should not take seriously the Biblical account of God as an exaggerated human, and other Biblical accounts, because they were crafted so as to make the intended message intelligible to humans -- and on such grounds, he argued, organized religion ought to accept persuasive conclusions of science, a conception that Galileo appealed to (in vain) when he faced Papal censure.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Provocateur, Agent at Jan 10, 2005 23:22 PM
According to the Bible (The New Testament) most of the world's population is going to hell. Only a few are going to be saved. If that is the truth, then it is God's fault that he didn't give us better brains and better wills to make the right decisions to avoid going to hell. What do you think?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 10, 2005 19:17 PM
Boston Univ. Aquinan scholar and author of "Summa of the Summa" Peter Kreeft and I went round and round on rational thought.Defense of his beliefs in the Divinity always came down to Biblical Dogma. I stopped the discourse because I knew that his mind was frozen on an irrational premise - Seeing GOD as an angry self righteous jugemental fool that did not create a Universe to his liking exactly as he "GOD" intended. Irrational as an adjective is used by me to describe thought. Irrationally chosen thought and subsequent human behavior are in fact the foundation for things being true. History stands as proof. Your skeptism and own beliefs are preventing you from taking a quantum leap foward. WE will always know very little about our Universe by definition it was finite but now "beleived" by some to be expanding. While our knowing is limited - and man is capable of irrational thoughts and acts - GOD by rational definition is incapable of the irrational.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 10, 2005 07:12 AM
"...which I rationally have chosen to believe." I've always been skeptical of the idea of "rationally chosen" beliefs. Like you said, we really know very little about the universe and the things in it, and our human mind is limited to experiencing the world only on a certain scale and only for a limited time. Things could seem completely irrational to us and yet still be true if seen from a larger perspective.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 10, 2005 03:18 AM
The last election and Dubbya's plubic statements as to how god speaks to him are proof that the US is dominated by its' fundamental Christian faith. People who talk to GOD and have visions should be locked up. They certainly are not fit to govern a nation. I am always amazed at how we filter what we hear and see to come to some conclusion that we want to believe. For me Dubbya is the anti-christ. 49% of the US approve of what he is doing. History will play out the truth, as we argue over gays and Sco Sec and Jobs. We are being robbed blind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 09, 2005 18:12 PM
It's easy to look disapprovingly at the history of organized religion from our contemporary perspective. But are we really so superior? Maybe the real reason we now officially disapprove of war is that a serious war with the weapons we have now would destroy us all. That idea doesn't seem so glorious. But I don't really think we are morally superior to the ancients. We just can't afford real wars any more.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 09, 2005 18:09 PM
Now of course religion and politics are separated in the US. That does not mean people in general do not care about God. And whatever little we can know about God comes from the knowledge preserved by organized religion. Hating organized religion is equivalent to hating humanity. All institutions created by humans are imperfect, including religion. We know longer believe, as a culture, that military conquest is glorious and approved by God. But that is what people believed until relatively recently, and what the Moslem fundamentalists still believe.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 09, 2005 18:05 PM
Since organized religion has never been separated from politics until relatively recently, it has been involved in wars of all kinds. The Jewish bible includes a lot of military history, starting with the invasion of Canaan. There was no separation at that time between the legal/political system and religion. In Judaism, the earliest leaders and judges were prophets, like Moses, so direction and laws supposedly came right from Yahweh.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 09, 2005 18:00 PM
Organized religions are the institutions every civilization has had for preserving and communicating that civilization's knowledge and opinions regarding God. Most of the old pagan (pagan meaning local) religions have died out so there is no way to know about their beliefs and practices. We know something about what the original Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc., believed, only because of the organizations that have preserved this information.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 09, 2005 04:08 AM
For me the simple truth is that "IF" GOD exists - and I have profound reasons to believe that he does - he will be supremely more perfect than I could possibly imagine. While the mind of GOD may be unknowable to me - the evidence for his being is all around me. If I see GOD differently than you that does not make me right or you wrong. Because "IF" GOD exists he will be far beyond anything that any human could possibly imagine. Religions have devided and not united humanity. That is why I know they are bad. But GOD is a mystery.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 09, 2005 03:59 AM
Adam and Eve is a "cute" explanation for the unexplainable "Nature" that GOD has given man. GOD has revealed himself to man in a miriad of ways. That belief is based on a large body of mathamatical - scientific - physical - philosophical - theological and personal knowledge and expierience which I rationally have chosen to believe. Belief and faith are different. Just because I might believe and you have faith will not bring GOD into existance.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 09, 2005 03:02 AM
"If" GOD exists then he indended man to be both good and bad as defined by man not GOD. He also intended for man to be rational and irrational. GOD to be GOD must of necessity be perfect as man defines perfection. GOD can not be irrational or bad or stupid or arbitrary or any thing less than man is capable of imagining him to be. He can not be flawed - period. GOD' s magnificance has been destroyed by man making GOD into man's image. Because man is so flawed as viewed by man - not GOD - it is irrational to believe that GOD will judge man. WE are after his creation - "IF" GOD does in fact exist. By the way "IF" GOD exists then evil can not!

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 09, 2005 02:54 AM
It is supremely human arrogance for any man to claim he even remotely speak for GOD. The truth is that man can not know the mind of GOD or even remotely explain why GOD created anything- that is "IF" GOD exists.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 09, 2005 02:30 AM
Thanks for proving my point. You believe in an irrational dogma. No amount of reasoning will stop you from choosing to believe in your irrational god based on irrational dogma. Irrational beliefs can not lead to rational thought or action - exactly why you must condem reason - it destroys you faith.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 09, 2005 01:20 AM
Look at all the Qualities man has assigned to GOD. From whatever source they are always based on man's own Nature. Man is nothing like GOD. If we were then History would be perfect - one of Utopia aka Heaven. History and the bible prove that man is incapable of defining GOD. The god of humanity is unquestionably insanely irrational -just like man. Think about it - "IF" GOD exists then - Why would GOD created a universe that was not exactly as he intended. The Universe must therefore in the Mind of GOD be perfect, it is man that does like -hates- GOD's creation. Constantly trying to change God's creation to man's liking. The fact is, man worships an irrational being that cannot be GOD - a being more like man and what I would envision the devil to be like. Man's feable attempts to define and worship a god proves GOD is not Knowable. If he were then we would not have this nagging paradox destroying men -cultures and rational thought.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 23:47 PM
The point is not so much that many Americans are religious. What is interesting is the set of specific beliefs that underly American religiosity. When consciousness evolves, one's conception of "God" usually changes accordingly. Religious impluse and spiritualism usually manifest in more refine, philosphical froms in most developed nations, excpet in the U.S. What you find in the bible thumpers is not so much "spiritualism" but crude superstition and fanaticism you may expect to find in say, rual China. This is Chomsky's paradox. TV evaneglism is a very American phenomenon. It is an unique blend of Chritsian puritanism with the most crass form of husterism.The irony and contradiction is truly remarkable. In some way it captures the essence of American culture(like guns, baseball, Mcdonald's). I am sure this is an interesting topic for sociology students.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 22:02 PM
The God of the OT is saddistic, hateful, unjust, petty and down right evil. He's a bully and criminal,far worse than Hitler and Stalin combined. Anyone who would concieve of the idea of eternal torment for disobedience is a tyrant without equal. Such a "God" is a moral midget.It is a strange inversion that somehow this morally bankrupt deity is supposed to judge our conducts. By his standard Charlie Mansion should be a saint. What does this say about the mindset of hell and brimestone Christians(not all Christians) who worship such a God? If that is "God", you wonder what the devil may be like.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Provocateur, Agent at Jan 08, 2005 21:37 PM
Salvation via the Christian faith is valid only if you accept the premise that the God of the Hebrew Bible is just, moral and/or holy. If this premise does not hold up to scrutiny then Christianity as a means to escape an alleged afterlife in hell is just irrational. Look at the Old Testament. Even literary critic Harold Bloom concedes that the God of the Bible acts "badly" is jealous, quick to anger, etc. I don't know, but killing 40 children just because they made fun of Elisha's premature balditude is extremely bad for recruitment. Let's look at what Christians in general believe: That God is so holy that man's righteousness is as dirty rags in his eyes. So man's shortcomings must be atoned through Jesus' spotless purity. His death at the cross will justify man in God's sight if they will only repent and put their trust in Jesus for the remission of their sins. That is just ridiculous.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 08, 2005 20:59 PM
Like every other human being I become biased if I only hear one side. I am more interested in understanding than in feeling superior and correct. But it is a constant battle not to give in to self-righteousness. Then I start feeling superior because I fight the desire to feel superior. Life is meant to be paradoxical.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 08, 2005 20:56 PM
The truth is that every one of us (with possible psychopathic exceptions) want to belong to the group that is strong and smart and morally superior. This need to be superior is blinding -- you cannot see any truth or wisdom in what your adversaries have to say. I am here at the Chomsky blog because I strongly disagree with Chomsky's basic philosophy. I could go where everyone agrees with me, but I that would not help me get a broader perspective.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 08, 2005 20:52 PM
Yes, people want to feel they belong to something good. That is a powerful drive in everyone. The religious right feel they are moral and will go to heaven, the radical left feel they are rational and know how to fix society. Their motivation is to feel they are on the side that is right and good. Left and right continually antagonize each other and become ever angrier and more certain of their correctness.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Jan 08, 2005 20:04 PM
It certainly seems true that the left has been fairly focused on giving criticism. I was thinking about that the other day. I think what ought to be added is something positive, especially if people want to build networks of individuals. The thing is that people want to belong to something good. And that has to mean more than exposing crimes and systems' flaws.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 08, 2005 19:16 PM
Opinions are like rectums - everyone has one!

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 08, 2005 18:34 PM
Chomsky's writing, especially in recent years, is an angry self-righteous tirade. Sure there is some truth in what he says, but there is just as much truth in what his opponents say. No one has the whole truth, and everyone has at least a small part of it. Radical leftists are addicted to anger and are escaping fear of the supernatural by denying it exists. That's my diagnosis anyway.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 08, 2005 18:31 PM
Self-righteous anger feels good. It's the feeling of being superior and having the answers. All of us can easily fall into this trap, whether we belong to the religious right, the secular left, or something else. But religious faith, if it's genuine, provides ways out of every trap.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 08, 2005 17:59 PM
Secular rationalists and many Christian fundamentalists are both caught in the same trap of angry self-righteousness.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 08, 2005 17:29 PM
One motivator for secular rationalism, I believe, is fear of the supernatural. If you fear something the easiest strategy is to deny it exists. Secular rationalists replace the demons of the spiritual realm with capitalism, greed, natiionalism, bigotry, etc. The think they have evil figured out, contained, soon to be under control.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 08, 2005 17:25 PM
The central message of the Christian bible is true, I believe, but it's similar to the central message of any other mystical tradition. William James said the mystlical essence of all religions is the same, and I think he was right. The danger of hell is more real than reality. The faith necessary to let go of our worldly attachments is tremendous.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 05:48 AM
Joe, I don't know of any primer of mordern science. I work in mathematics and physics, only recently get interested in biology, but really very pedestrain. I form my half baked idea about things and through conversations with others. I have not made any effeort in studying the philsophy of science. It is true that nowadays science is very specialized. Partly it is because of the sheer volume of information, and partly because of pressure for researchers to produce(publish or perish, no time to do to much extracurricular thinking) A friend of mine observed that in the early 20th centry, new scientific developments are usually brought about by young men(mostly men if not all) in their 20's. Nowadays the really novel ideas tend to come from older people with tenures.These people have a better view of the big picture and they can also take risks with impunity.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 05:26 AM
"Just a last thought. Science may be more objective than politics and sociology, but science cannot express itself to the level of its utmost power until there is a fully humane, universal political and social reality in the world today." This I definitely agree. The deployment of technology is a political decision, not a scientific one. Thanks for the info on post mordernism. I was using the term as a caricature, mostly. Their literature sounds like Greek to me.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 05:21 AM
In one sense though, scientific inquiries are influenced by socialization, though I don't that is the kind of soical mediation that Joe has in mind. A suceesful paradigm tends to beget its own set of problems, which biases one's vision in a certain sense. For example, the success of the neo Darwinian paradigm conditions biologists to view evolution almost solely in terms of history and chances.It is only very recently that attempts are make to investigate the role of physics-mathematics in evolution. This line of inquiry highlights structures and time invariant laws. This new perspective no doubt is stimulated by more recent developments in mathematics, physics and the availiablity of high speed computers(many research in this area involve modelling and simulation). These factors are outside biology proper.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 04:49 AM
"Paradigm shifts" are forced upon scientists by nature and may be only very slightly influenced by social mediations(I don't agree with Thomas Khun, incdentally, who coined the phrase) This is true at least for the mature sciences like physics, Chemistry and some parts of biology. For subjects like psychology the story different. Some may argue psychology is at least 50% pseudoscience. The social "sciences" are probably over 80% non science. Accordingly social mediations play a much stronger role in these disciplines. PS The post mordernists may not agree an underlying reality exists, but who cares about the post modernists because you and I don't exist either in their theories.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 04:48 AM
Wrong theories will eventually be eliminated because they fail to explain experimental data. A new theory replaces an old one because it "extends" the old theory to account for observations where the old theory fails and it predicts new phenonmena which can be verified experimentally. By "extend" I mean one has to be able to recover the old theory as an approximation in domains where the old theory is successful(the requirement of internal consistency)

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 04:47 AM
On the other hand, the objective world puts strong constraints on scientific theories. You may choose to describe the world in a slightly different way, but different schemes of describtion have to talk about the same underlying reality. Because of the requirement of underlying invariance, a successful scientific theory has to be able to explain external observations and be consistent internally. This leaves very little room for "social mediations".

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 04:45 AM
"The scientist cannot be simply effaced from the equation as though he or she has some supernatural direct contact with the obective world - mediation always takes place. Mediation is socially produced." There is some truth to that, but science has a self corrective mechanism lacking in other disciplines such as philosophy or Paris high fashion. Philosphy is probably 99.9% social fad. We switch from "pre mordern" to "mordern" to "post mordn" -isms in matter of decades mostly because of intellectual fashion shift. Taste is of course heavily socially mediated

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 03:31 AM
arc-angel, God, Satan.. I wonder why these beliefs have more validity than the worship of Zeus. At least the ancient Greeks told a much better story.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Jan 08, 2005 02:53 AM
Hi Katsteevens, "Save a life from what? ... We want to stop people from being mistreated." Yes. "The task may not seem too big but I don't believe we have the power within ourselves to complete the task ... Can we outsmart an ex arch angel without help from God?" Okay, help from God. It sounds like your faith helps to give you more power to help people, and that's great. I see no conflict in believers and atheists working together on mutually agreeable tasks. Like reducing poverty, or healing the sick, and so on. Personally I'd be happy to work with deeply religious people on such tasks. This approach would require that we unbundle the various issues that get combined sometimes, and cooperate issue-by-issue.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 08, 2005 02:16 AM
Depending on what history you choose to believe - the bible ceased to exist outside the Church for several hundred years during the dark ages. Only God knows what the bible really is.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 08, 2005 02:03 AM
"By the way, did you know there was a Gospel According to Mary Magdelene (amongst other things) which did not get in." yeah, this is true, but the "Davinci Code" is still a work of fiction :). The bible is full of distortions based on the politics of 300 AD, not 0AD. For instance, while Jesus always cries against the Pharisees in the bible, we know from history that the Pharisees did not become a influential sect of Judaism until well after his death. After the destruction of the temple the Jews turned to the Pharisees instead of the early christians, and the christians hated them for that. So, over those three centuries, the Christians incorperated their views into the Gospels - making Jesus speak out against their contemporary enemies. I imagine the New Testament is pretty far from the facts of Jesuses real life.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 08, 2005 01:31 AM
"IF" GOD exists he is far beyond our feable little brains to comprehend. Human nature and arrogrance drives man to place himself in the image and likeness of GOD, and thereby knowable. "IF" GOD exists he is Vastly greater and more spectacularly unknowable and more supremely perfect in every way that he makes human understanding and acceptance impossible without revelation. "If" God - he is most definitely unlike anything man has conceived, or presently believes through faith.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Jan 08, 2005 01:03 AM
"Work and pray, live on hay, you'll get pie in the sky when you die." -IWW song lyrics i'm not in this for honor, i don't plan on failing, and i'm certainly no God's pet dog. i'm fairly young right now, so after living the early phases of my life active in political organizing, i plan on living the later stages of my life concentrating more fully on music, film, and science, enjoying the peace/prosperity with friends and relatives. then i'll try heroin on my death bed and happily bid adieu to the only world we know of. will there be something after that? i don't know. nor do i care.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 08, 2005 00:46 AM
The Bible is Religious Dogma. Written 300 years after Christ's supposed life. Common Sense dictates that word of mouth history is totally unreliable. Dogma has no place in rational thought. Accepted Dogma stops thought and change. The Bible is a curse upon man and society. "If" God exists then he had to intend man to be as he was created to be. It is man that does not like his created nature. The Bible is proof of man's contempt for God. - that is "IF" God does in fact exist. "If" there is no God then Man has allowed an irrational belief to rule the world.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 08, 2005 00:03 AM
"The West is not an idealogically neutral space in which scientists can pursue knowledge." And in what golden age did that exist?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 07, 2005 23:01 PM
"It's interesting that you put forward a Soviet instance of control over science, but cannot cite one instance of private control over scientific research or development," Youre assuming I think the west is immune. Actually I just thought of Lysenko because I know a decent amount about him - a lot more than, say, the Cold-Fusion Con-artists (which could be seen as an example of the profit-motive corrupting science). The fact of the matter is that accepting political control of science is tghe same as allowing political interests to control the search for truth. As long as we fight this temptation we can at least progress. once we accept it we will end up with NO progress because the current interests will always sqaush any research that could challenge them. At least Environmentalists can get published - if we accepted political control the Corporations would control the information channels completely, instead of just mostly.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 07, 2005 22:53 PM
"The debate is not Is Science to be Controlled?, but Who Has Control Over Science? " Nonsense. Just because bias will always exist doesn't mean we should stop TRYING to be objective and embrace political control of science. There are a lot of bad things in the world that we can't eliminate but try to minimize. Political Control of science is NOT something we should simply shrug our shoulders and embrace.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 07, 2005 22:39 PM
"What's going on are we turning back to romanticism? You know why 70% believe in the devil? because 90 % of em are uneducated and brainwashed by corporate american" Are you aware that people believed in the devil LONG before any corporations, or america, existed?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 07, 2005 22:35 PM
"The answers we need are in the book." Yup, everything is in the Chuang-Tzu.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 07, 2005 22:34 PM
"But Von Neumann proved in the 1950's(?)that "local hidden variables" can be ruled out. " Also Bell's experiment ruled out local hidden variable absolutely. Quatum mechanics predicted the outcomes of the experiment correctly while hidden variable theory was simply wrong. ' NONlocal hidden variables are possible, but being nonlocal are still pretty weird and magical :).

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 07, 2005 22:30 PM
I foyu mean Alan Sokal and "Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity" it was not a feminism jouranal bnut a post-modernism one. It is hillarious that the idiots at the mag published this article. http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 21:58 PM
joeblog, I think that post you commented on was from r4d20, not hairjello.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 07, 2005 21:41 PM
"Is Bush 2 the new messiah" Is Bush the Antichrist? By Chuck Baldwin April 12, 2002 http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/bush12apr02.html

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 07, 2005 21:36 PM
“The most intelligent of our species will be first to acknowledge the POSSIBILITY of God's existence because it cannot be disproved that He does not exist. Using this as a premise, what harm is there in those who chose to invest their belief in God? They are not harming anyone by making this investment. The harm comes when they enforce their beliefs on to others.' No the harm comes when decisions are based on a faulty analyses of reality. A mother who kills her child because she believes good tells her to do so only to regret it latter when she discovers it was mental illness. A president who believes he is destined by god to lead a nations and rid the world of evil. A terrorist who believes God has allowed him to defeat one super power only to defeat the other and free the Middle East if not the world of a western culture of sin. So long as your decisions are made on Faith and not Knowledge, you run the risk of making poor choices with devastating consequences. Iraq is simply our most resent and timely example.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 07, 2005 21:35 PM
“I think that the human spirit, in some form or another, needs a higher ideal to aspire towards.” Another way of saying this is that ignorance and denial are necessary for human survival. I think there is something to this, consider how memory functions, selectively forgetting and even inventing events.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By K, Mr at Jan 07, 2005 20:59 PM
What's going on are we turning back to romanticism? You know why 70% believe in the devil? because 90 % of em are uneducated and brainwashed by corporate american. If God does exist he don't mind that i suppose. I'm ready for another 30 years war. Rationality over belief and pursuit of scientific knowledge over fundamental jargon. God don't mind science running the show. De-programming millions of Yankees is a doo dandy for sure. If the population is suppressed enough i'm sure they have nothing left but 'god' to bring salvation. Easily exploited hominid demograph. Is Bush 2 the new messiah or is it Bin Laden? Hey if God exists why did he bring down the space shuttle? Why are they losing in Iraq? Why is their dollar falling? Satan must be at work eh? God don't care about neo-economic policies because the corporations obviously are graced by his will. The higher the corporate profits the closer to enlightenment. GOD SAVE US ALL.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 20:52 PM
"Let's start with the part where you say that trying to save your self and others is not a bad thing. I happen to agree. Whether the results will make a difference can only be discovered after we try to do it, right? Suppose we all dedicated an average of 15 minutes a day to try and improve the world.." adamrotmil Souds reasonable and inclusive. Except for one problem. Katsteevns(and people who think like him) may have a different idea of what improving the world means than you do. Based on what he said so far it seems his ideal world would be a Christian theocracy fashioned after the Talibans. In Jesusland homosexuals will be outlawed (killed?), women would be reduced to human incubators and premaritial sex would be banned.He may even go after pork eaters and sunday shoppers by the look of it.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 20:44 PM
"what if the force that drives evolutionism - the survival instinct is in and of itself, and intelligence of sorts? " Overt enigma That is obviously not what ID advocates have in mind. You're just changing the definition of "intellegence" without really saying anything new. Using the same device we are all thesists if "God" is by definition = nature. Clearly that doesn't settle anything.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 19:07 PM
Katsteevns, Quoting scripture, although thoughtful, is ultimately irrelevant. Especially to those who do not subscribe to Christian theology or to any type of theology - to them, it is just a poem and fails to prove anything really.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 18:54 PM
The most intelligent of our species will be first to acknowledge the POSSIBILITY of God's existence because it cannot be disproved that He does not exist. Using this as a premise, what harm is there in those who chose to invest their belief in God? They are not harming anyone by making this investment. The harm comes when they enforce their beliefs on to others. To all: I apologize for entering this debate late as is demonstrated by my post from 4 pgs ago.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 18:53 PM
Hairjello: " I mean, c'mon, how can you believe in something that isn't there, that you have no proof of?" That, my friend, is the essence of faith. If there was proof that God exists, would it not then be a statement of fact? Speaking from theistic perspective, do not ridicule those who believe simply because you do not have the capacity to invest in something that YOU cannot prove. Intelligent Design vs. Evolutionism: (I am jsut playing devil's (pardon the irony) advocate here - what if the force that drives evolutionism - the survival instinct is in and of itself, and intelligence of sorts? This is far reaching philosophical idea that can be explored another time. With respect to religion and God - I reserve my own opinions on the matter, save one: All religions have the ability to enlighten humanity. I think that the human spirit, in some form or another, needs a higher ideal to aspire towards. The feeling that there is more to life than life is a hunger that has fuelled creativity from poets, artists, philosophers and even scientists (Einstein, Hawkins, Newton, etc.) - because there is no conclusive evidence one way or another.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 07, 2005 15:06 PM
meant to say "repetitious."

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 07, 2005 15:06 PM
katstevens, What book has all our answers? The Jewish bible is mostly a long, repitious, angry advertisement for a particular god. The Christian bible is likewise, except for the teachings of Jesus, which are meant to be incomprehensible. Life on earh is paradoxical and ironic. If anyone says they have it figured out I conclude they are an egomaniac.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Jan 07, 2005 11:47 AM
hey bwong. thanks for explaining that. so you're saying that the motion of these particles is truly random and doesn't follow cause and effect? that's messed up. katstevens, man can't save himself from what? from the sun exploding? or are you talking about manmade problems like war, poverty, and environmental destruction? if it's the latter, we did a good job creating them, i think we're quite capable of solving them if we want to.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Jan 07, 2005 06:33 AM
Let's start with the part where you say that trying to save your self and others is not a bad thing. I happen to agree. Whether the results will make a difference can only be discovered after we try to do it, right? Suppose we all dedicated an average of 15 minutes a day to try and improve the world. Whether it's by talking with other people, volunteering, etc. Even if the results in the term of a life time saved only one other life on this planet, wouldn't it be worth the effort?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 07, 2005 04:43 AM
Western civ is quite amazing when it comes to technology, at least compared to the other animals. But it is highly naive to think that means we are not ignorant. It is also highly arrogant and human-centric to think what we happen to know so far makes more than the tiniest dent in what we don't know.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 07, 2005 04:38 AM
A western education does not eradicate ignorance. Chomsky, and many other pre-postmodernists, believe that humans are capable of creating a society free of violence and injustice. They believe that most of our misery is rooted in ignorance and superstition, and these will evaporate once all people learn to think rationally.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 03:54 AM
BTW, just to make one point clear. Non determinism does not imply any supernatural or devine presence.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 03:36 AM
One may ask if it is possible that there are "hidden variables" which have not been taken into account. If we know these hidden variables we will be able to restore determinism. But Von Neumann proved in the 1950's(?)that "local hidden variables" can be ruled out. This means, if indeed the outcome of a measurement is determined by some hidden variables, it has to be far away and they interact with the system in some very bizzare manner which will violate other laws of physics, for example, the impossibility to transmit information instaneously(special relativity) Max Born put it this way, if you don't find quantum mechanics shockingly bizzare you don't really understand it.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 03:34 AM
"The collapse of the wave function", as the measurement process is called, is an INTRINSICALLY random event.This randomness is not due to our limited knowledge(as in classical statistical mechanics) In Einstein's figurative speech, "God"(nature) does play dice.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 03:33 AM
"The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle has nothing to do with determinism. It just describes our limited ability to measure the motion of the particles." hairjello The Heisenberg principle does not describe "our ability" to measure certain quantities sumultaneously(not just momentum and position, but any pair of "non commuting" observables, say, two orthogonal components of an electron spin). Rather, it says that at a deep, fundamental level, nature "cannot make up her mind" what the values of these observables are until a "measurement" is made(A "mesaurement" here means just any interaction with a "macroscopic" system and does not have to involve any conscious "obsever") In general there is no way to predict what the value of a measurement is(unless the system happens to be in an "eigen state" of the observable in question). All we can do is to predict probabibilities.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Dowling, John at Jan 07, 2005 02:53 AM
bwong -- some would say because Jesus rendered many laws (sabbath, purity, etc) obselete... and like a good Rabbi he showed that all laws are subject to interpetation...

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Parke, Parke at Jan 07, 2005 02:31 AM
I blogged on a related theme (at http://thingsasitis.net/2004/12/is-democracy-moral.html). It has been my observation that our belief systems are generally quite simplistic, even those of us who snear at fundamentalism. In the post I pose the question: are our common sensical notions about right and wrong consistent with our notions of democracy?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Jan 07, 2005 02:14 AM
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle has nothing to do with determinism. It just describes our limited ability to measure the motion of the particles.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Jan 07, 2005 01:55 AM
Right, religion means lots of things to different people. It's really an individual interpretation. That's why we get philosophies like "thou kind of shall not kill" etc...

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 01:32 AM
"Leviticus18:22 states:"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female:it is an abomination."...just to name one instance." The OT also said pigs are an abomination and people who work on the Shabah should be put to death. How come eating pork chops have not become a "moral issue" and we haven't had any debate about the death penalty for sunday shoppers? Usery is not allowed either. How come I don't see any christian army picketing outside banks and other financial institutions?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 01:18 AM
"bwong, there's nothing that tells us quantum mechanics isn't determinist." hairjello Ever heard of the Hisenberg uncertainty principle?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Jan 07, 2005 01:00 AM
hey man, i like using the word "retarded." so sue me. I disagree that science, generally speaking, is an elite, closed, exclusive, unaccountable process. yeah, it's become quite specialized and jargony, but it's possible for most people to learn how to understand current science research if they want to and the path of learning is quite straight forward. aside from the jargon, science research papers are easy to understand compared to nonscience papers (esp. the postmodern kind), and the experiments can be simplified into nice little abstracts that say what happened in a few sentences. plus, there's a whole slew of popular science books. anyway, i don't think there's a trend toward "genetic determinism." that's the strawman i was talking about. bwong, there's nothing that tells us quantum mechanics isn't determinist.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Jan 07, 2005 00:12 AM
Maybe Mr. Leviticus was just talking about taking naps together?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 23:36 PM
I think in this day and age corporate encroachment poses a much greater threat to the integrity of scientific research than Lysencko and Stalin.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 23:33 PM
"Science shouldn't be popular and scientists are not, and should not, be under any obligation to only puruse "socially useful/responsible" or religiously validated lines of inquiry. " r4k20 I basically agree. But I would add that scientists should not be pressure intp only pursue "economically useful" lines of inquiry either. Scientists have to get their grant from somewehere. It is a problem if scietific research has to rely too much on private donors. Big business is able to set the agenda for scientific research by controlling the purse string(e.g bioltech and pharmetcheuticles)

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 23:25 PM
"Ur right though. We are limited to studying deterministic processes in science. " Quantum mechanics, anyone? The collpase of the wave function is not deterministic! :)

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 23:15 PM
In the article he offered an insider look at physics as a sham science. He described how the subject was a conspiracy designed to oppress women and minorities. The article was pretty much nonsense. For example he argued that the complex numbers were invented to objectify women. You get the picture. The article was actually published! Then came the declaration of war. The author published a follow up in NYT(?). He said the whole thing was an experiment to find out how gullible the academic feminists are. The fact that they could not detect such an obvious hoax and published his article in a serious journal proved once and for all that these academic radicals are just a bunch of ignorant windbags. The journal attribute the publication of his article as editorial oversight. The war then began in earnest.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 23:14 PM
I think it is a valid domain to investigate scientific inquiry as a social phenomenon. The sociology of science if you want. But as usual some people are a bit carried away. Take the example of some feminism professor(I don't even know what that means) who said matter of factly that Newton's laws are rape fantasies. There is this litle episode in the mid 90's known as "the cultural war" within the academic circle. This physicist from NYU(I forget his name, maybe r4d20 knows) wrote an article and submitted it to a very prestageous journal of academic feminism for publication.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 06, 2005 22:42 PM
"He is also interesting because he does not fall back on an elite scientifically- literate position of objectivity and professional superiority. He has the social courage to open science up for free debate. Something that people with political insight (e.g. Chomsky) would appreciate." Courage is the right word here. Scientists should be scared of the day when their research has to be "socially correct". Lysenko set Russian biologiy back decades, but he was loved by Communists because his theories were compatible ith "socialist values" (while genetics was called "beugoise imperialism dressed as science"). Evolution is under attack by Creationists who would LOVE to make science more accountable to "the people". Science shouldn't be popular and scientists are not, and should not, be under any obligation to only puruse "socially useful/responsible" or religiously validated lines of inquiry. Popular control over science may seem morally right to you, but it will be as productive (and, in my mind, as moral too) as church control over science.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 06, 2005 22:30 PM
"there's nothing supernatural about the environment. nature and nurture. that's determinism. " BUT...there are some "deterministic" processes which are (currently) so complex as to be unpredictable and, hence, not deterministic from our experience (weather, economy). It's one thing to say "everything is deterministic", but it's another to actually make accurate predictions. Ur right though. We are limited to studying deterministic processes in science. We wait on the complex systems until we have the techniques to predict them.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Jan 06, 2005 22:08 PM
Re: Steven Rose's "Lifelines" just based on the reviews, table of contents, and first few pages of the intro, it sounds retarded. there's this thing called "the environment" that influences life in addition to genes. WOW, what a revelation. that's real deep. did he come up with that all by himself? i'll check it out from the library sometime, but it sounds like he misrepresents/misunderstands Dawkins and sets up straw men. and "beyond determinism"? please. all science (including bio and psych) depends on determinism. cause and freakin' effect. if it doesn't follow that it's something supernatural we can't study. there's nothing supernatural about the environment. nature and nurture. that's determinism. but i ramble.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Provocateur, Agent at Jan 06, 2005 21:40 PM
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814 "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813. "The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173 http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 06, 2005 20:20 PM
"American culture is an oxymoron. I think some may confuse culture with fads, cliques, or ethnic groupings. Culture in my usage is what distinguishes Rome or Madrid or Prague or Athens or the small towns throughout Europe and everything that is offered there, from the strip mall banal mindless anti culture of the U.S.A." Just because you like something more does not make it more cultured. My god, the anti-American comments are as ignorant as anything a 19th century Brit would have said about the WOGs.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 06, 2005 20:08 PM
" people have things to do that are not repetitive and mind numbingingly shallow, ugly, madison avenue-ized, and uninteresting and non stimulating. [think pro sports, car races, hanging out at malls/shopping, bland architecture of cities, strip mall civilization, high culture in cities is greenwich village or Haight ashbury etc]" Yeah, but at least it beats living in Africa where people say "ug ug", eat bugs, walk around naked, and otherwise live as completely uncultured savages. Actually, I don't mean it - but it sounds pretty close to what you were saying about americans. There are thousands of Museums, theatres, symphonys, etc. in America. And the Average European is every bit as ignorant and uncultured as the average America. Football hooligans anyone?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 06, 2005 19:34 PM
rwrong - Again no suprises. There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Will Rodgers

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 11:01 AM
Oh 7 natures, yawn! You know somethn'? When I was an angst filled teenager I went through this phase fancying myself as Zarathustra. Everyone was, oh, shall I say, "human, all too human". "dumb as box of rocks". Then one day it suddenly dawned on me that behind all the big words and contempt, the real Nietzche was just a sad, pathetic little man full of hot air and delusion of granduer who died(befittingly)in a mad house.Thus spoke Zarathustra was probably just his syphilis talking. GROW UP! PS I can see you're frustrated in the "lust" department of the seven natures.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 06, 2005 09:58 AM
Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions. - Albert Einstein You all choose to believe what someone else has told you to believe. Thanks for proving my point!!!!!!!! Humans define the "truth" they want to believe, based on their personal ignorance. Left or right - all are dumb as box of rocks.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Poemworld33, Bruce33 at Jan 06, 2005 08:08 AM
Let's try a different tack... There's a concept called axiology which is the theory of value. It's usually considered a part of ethics, though I think it goes much deeper and broader. Karl Popper said, "All science begins with myth and the criticism of myth." I believe that God is one of our last reigning myths and it's our myth of value, i.e. God is an anthropomorphism of value. I usually read religious texts axiologically, unless they're right off the deep end. The Lord's Prayer can be interpreted as having a pretty potent theory of justice, IMO. Niall Shanks' book "God, the Devil and Darwin" is a simply devastating critique of ID. It covers all of bwong's points plus more. It's also quite well written!

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Jan 06, 2005 08:00 AM
But with activism, I like the Malcolm X approach: "Although I'm still a Muslim, I'm not here tonight to discuss my religion. I'm not here to try and change your religion. I'm not here to argue or discuss anything that we differ about, because it's time for us to submerge our differences and realize that it is best for us to first see that we have the same problem, a common problem, a problem that will make you catch hell whether you're a Baptist, or a Methodist, or a Muslim, or a nationalist. Whether you're educated or illiterate, whether you live on the boulevard or in the alley, you're going to catch hell just like I am." (from his "The Ballot or the Bullet" speech)

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Jan 06, 2005 07:59 AM
On a different topic, I still maintain that all theist religions are stupid, whether it's right-wing fundamentalism, liberation theology, or whatever. I mean, c'mon, how can you believe in something that isn't there, that you have no proof of? you don't believe in the tooth fairy, do you? i understand that people are insecure with the mystery of not knowing if this is it or in not having any "point" to living. but that's no reason to just make one up. furthermore, how does the existence of God, heaven, and hell even solve any of these existential problems? what's the point of God, heaven, and hell? It just raises the same bloody questions to another level? But of course this is all in good fun. It's your constitutionally protected right to believe in stupid things, and I fully support this right, though I will try to persuade you that you're being stupid, just as you should try to persuade me that I'm being stupid. that's discussion. that's healthy debate.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Jan 06, 2005 07:58 AM
With regard to evolution, I'll just refer you to the writings of Richard Dawkins or to any intro evolutionary bio text book like "Evolutionary Analysis" by Scott Freeman and Jon Herron (that's one I used, but it's a somewhat boring topic I warn ya). The strength of the theory is that it's so simple/elegant and there's so much evidence to support it. Evolution is well accepted as the unifying theme of all biology.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 07:18 AM
The anthropic principle is older than the ID movement. It comes from physics rather than biology. There are different versions of it. At least the strong version basically reduces to the tautology that universe exists because it has to exist for us to observe. Kind of a Hegalian version of cosmology.I don't know how that may support the ID claim except as a reformulation of another basically empty hypothesis. realpc is not very upfront about what ID is . At times he sounds as if ID is just another version of James Lovelock's Gia theory(which does not posit an intelligent "designer")

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 07:17 AM
According to folk legend, the 18th centry Great Swedish mathematican (also a religious nut) Lenord Euler had a public debate with the atheist philosopher Diderot on the existence of God. Euler arrived an hour late. He then swaggered onto the podium and loudly proclaimed some incomprehensible mathematics, then announced, therefore God exists! Diderot was so confused and intimidated that he sheepishly agreed to be baptized on the spot. I don't know if that was true. But this is apparantly what the ID crowd try to pull.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 07:17 AM
Michael Behe in the mid 90's proposed to disprove evolution with what he called "irreducibly complexe" organic structures which could not have been evolved gradually.But very quickly all his examples were shown to be flawed. It is also interesting that he did not publish his theory on any peer reviewed journal. Instead he wrote a popular book for the general reader.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 07:16 AM
gurudave, The ID movement doesn't explicitly claim any religious doctrine, but it is obvious the proponents are trying to argue the case for an intelligent "creator". The reason why this obvious conclusion is not spelt out is, I speculate, bad PR. Like the Creationists before them, ID advocates use pseudo scientific arguments to make their cases. Only difference is this group is mathematically a lot more sophisticated and they regularly use formulae and equations to dress up flawed arguments. Their favourite toolbox involve things like information theory, complexity theory etc, which most biologists are not well versed in.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Dowling, John at Jan 06, 2005 07:02 AM
Excellent links Dave!

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Jan 06, 2005 06:40 AM
American culture is an oxymoron. I think some may confuse culture with fads, cliques, or ethnic groupings. Culture in my usage is what distinguishes Rome or Madrid or Prague or Athens or the small towns throughout Europe and everything that is offered there, from the strip mall banal mindless anti culture of the U.S.A.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Jan 06, 2005 06:37 AM
I gave a bad link above. Here is the link to the [url=http://watch.pair.com/brit-israel.html]British Israelism-Rosicrucian-Freemason-pentecostal-fundie[/url] article.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Jan 06, 2005 06:32 AM
Intelligent Design does not posit an intelligence plus darwinism. Quite the opposite. [url=http://www.iscid.org/]The ID movement[/url] is based on 2 planks. The first is [url=http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/]scientific challenge to Evolution theory[/url], they seek to discredit it totally and completely, using science. The second is the [url=http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rossuk/c-anthro.htm]Anthropic principle.[/url]There is no religious doctrine with the ID movement. People involved are from all religions and no religions. Their common belief is the above. It is mostly scientists and people interested in the science, although some fundies are getting involved.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Jan 06, 2005 06:18 AM
Fundies come in [url=http://www.linternet.com/Netschaton/orientations/christ-fundamentalist.html]different flavors[/url], but more or less have the same ideas. They almost all believe in the divine nature of the U.S because of the British Israelism doctrine that has crept into almost all of their teachings. This has been called [url=http://www.larouchepub.com/other/1997/ahc.html]a conspiracy by some[/url] who see it is a plan of British Rosicrucian/Freemasons to gain loyalty from american christians. Fact is British Israelism is and was a central belief of the British Monarchy, although they are quiet about it today, in the Past Queen Victoria and her court were quite open about it. Recently there has been an opening up of these bizarre beliefs in books by [url=http://www.halexandria.org/dward196.htm]Sir Laurence Gardner[/url], who was the official genealogist for the British Royal family and for other european noble houses.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 06, 2005 06:09 AM
Americans also have a culture that is unique to it alone. Whether it is Jazz, Rock and Roll, Modern art or the mix of cuisines, native American inspired architecture of the south west, the biggest ball of twine in Minnesota, zines, graphite, breakdacing, hiphop, baseball, etc…. a melting pot of people and cultures constantly inventing and reinventing the American experience in a dance of idea which is unprecedented in human history. That is American culture… and it is a beautiful and unprecedented thing.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 06, 2005 06:09 AM
With half my relatives still living in Germany and a sister who has immigrated to Norway to raise a family I have some first hand knowledge of the differences in cultures between the US and Europe. It is not the case that Europe has more cultural variety available in greater proximity to the average person. What it has is greater concentration and uniformity of culture. The US on the other hand has many towns and cities with cultures from every corner of the world often collected in small immigrant enclaves with in walking distance or close drive. One strip mall the Bain of US architecture might have Iranian, Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, and American restaurants. Super markets geared towards south American, African and Asian cooking are not uncommon in most urban areas.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 06, 2005 06:08 AM
“"Our culture is every bit as valid as Europes.". Valid or not, quality is what I speak of. In Prague or a Barcelona or really anywhere in Europe, because travel is easy and multicultural experiences are close by, the people have things to do that are not repetitive and mind numbingingly shallow, ugly, madison avenue-ized, and uninteresting and non stimulating. [think pro sports, car races, hanging out at malls/shopping, bland architecture of cities, strip mall civilization, high culture in cities is greenwich village or Haight ashbury etc] America is the land of where you have to really search hard for a cultural experience, and even then it's like finding a diamond while swimming in a cesspool, it may be shiny and excite you for a while, but the smell is still there.” This sentiment is absurd on its face. I grew up in a family were my mother was German and my father a fourth generation German American. My mother raised her children speaking German as a first language and in a house with German customs. Such experiences are not extraordinary is a country built and populated by immigrants.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Jan 06, 2005 06:05 AM
I just read through this skirmish and, well, there were some basic misunderstandings concerning fundamentalists and Intelligent Design. First off fundies come in many varieties, the largest group are the pentecostals, they "speak in tongues". They are the dominant voice and many predict will soon become the largest christian denomination in the world. "Evangelical" is what most fundies like to be called. They are biblical literalists, and [url=http://www.religioustolerance.org/anglo_is.htm]British Israelism[/url] is also a common and essential part of their beliefs. Although British Israelism is rampant throughout the fundie world, including mormonism, they will often deny it. This is because the theory posits the U.K and especially the U.S as God's chosen people, this is why fundies are always speaking of the U.S using religious mythos. "The divine America" so to speak. Interestingly enough the concept [url=[url=http://watch.pair.com/brit-israel.html]British Israelism[/url]originated among the Rosicrucian/Freemason noblity of Europe who were trying to prove they were direct descendents of the Biblical Patriarchs and have divine mandate.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 05:32 AM
"Marxism and Darwinism have a lot in common and are in fact related." realpc This proves that you're a nut case. Interstingly the people who oppose "Darwinism" (the science)in biology class room almost always embrace "social Darwinsim"(an ideology)

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 05:17 AM
"Natural selection has not been proven to be the mechanism of evolution. Actually, it can be seen as a mechanism that prevents evolution, that helps to maintain the stability of species." realpc Natural selection acting on MUTATIONS. Sorry fellow bloggers, this is the last, really.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 05:13 AM
"The emergence of new species may occur because of what might be called the "law of complexity." This is a natural tendency of the intelligent universe, in accordance with complexity theory and chaos theory" realpc Does it take "intellegence" for salt or snowflakes to crystalize and form complex pattern? How on earth does the "law of complexity" and "chaos" require "intelligence"? There is serious work which investigates the role of "law of complexity" and "chaos" in biological evolution. See the work of Stuarat Kauffmann of the University of Maryland.It has nothing whatsoever to do with "intelligence design". This is not the place to debate evolution. My apologies to other bloggers here. This is my last blog on this.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 05:04 AM
"Evolution theory came before Darwinism. Darwin's theory is one hypothesis about what the mechanism of evolution might be. It is not common-sensical, not supported by any evidence, and not the simplest possible explanation" realpc In your view what is the most common sensical, simplest explanation of the origin of species which is supported by evidence? Please do share with us. It is true that there were theories of evolution before Darwin. But these were mostly speculations. Darwin identified natural selection acting on mutations as the driving force of evolution and marked the begining of mordern theory of evolution. But the theory also changed a great deal after Darwin. Among other things, Darwin didn't know anything about genes and DNA, which are integral to contemporary undersatnding of evolution. It is problematic to refer to evolution as "Darwinism" If there is no evidence for evolution we won't have an entire industry making vaccine and anti biotics.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 04:57 AM
Abortion and homosexuality are emotionally-charged controversies because of the human need for tradition, and this is not the same thing as religion (although of course tradition and religion have areas in common).

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 04:55 AM
The religious fundamentalists are more in touch with reality than the secular/atheist humanists. There is nothing in the bible about abortion, nothing really about homosexuality. Religion has nothing to do with these questions. Most genuinely religious people care more about the central connection with God than these stupid controversies.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 04:52 AM
The world is now divided between those who cling to 19th c. humanistic atheism, those who cling to ancient religious traditions, and those who see the future.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 04:51 AM
Darwinists and Marxists are both intellectual heirs of the 19th c. humanistic "enlightenment." This is the belief in the supremacy of human reason, and the disbelief in dimensions of existence higher than the ones we happen to perceive with our physical senses.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 04:48 AM
The emergence of new species may occur because of what might be called the "law of complexity." This is a natural tendency of the intelligent universe, in accordance with complexity theory and chaos theory.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 04:46 AM
Darwin's theory accurately describes natural selection, which can easily be observed and is a fact of nature. Natural selection has not been proven to be the mechanism of evolution. Actually, it can be seen as a mechanism that prevents evolution, that helps to maintain the stability of species.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 04:43 AM
The excuse of Darwinists is that the evolution of a new species takes millions of years. Darwinism is a matter of faith, moreso than religion. Religious people usually have tangible experiences underlying their faith. Darwinists, on the other hand, have no scientific evidence, no personal experiences, no anecdotal evidence, to back up their faith. Marxism and Darwinism have a lot in common and are in fact related.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 04:40 AM
Evolution theory came before Darwinism. Darwin's theory is one hypothesis about what the mechanism of evolution might be. It is not common-sensical, not supported by any evidence, and not the simplest possible explanation. It is popular only because, if true, it would make belief in God unnecessary. No one has ever created a new species, not even a one-celled species, artificially.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 04:21 AM
"ID is compatible with faith in God(s) and higher levels of intelligence. Darwinism denies that evolution is guided by any kind of intelligence; therefore Darwinism is compatible with atheism." realpc ID is creationism in disguse, only more cunning by concealing the G-word and more sophisticated in their psudo arguments. "Darwinism"(I prefer the term "evolution" for the same reason that relativity should not be called "Einsteinism") does not really affirm or deny higher "intellgence". It just explains known facts according to the principle of Ocam's Razor(with remarkable success)as a scientific theory should. It has no need for "God" or any "intellgence" but it does not deny it either. The existence of God is the realm of metaphysics. ID, on the other hand, yields no testable hypothesis and explains nothing. The belief in God is compatible with anything, therefore it is a useless concept in scientific inquiry. It may have some relevance to you personally, but that's it.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 04:07 AM
There is noting "spiritual" in the fundamentalist belief. Their incredibly unsophisticated literal interpretation of the bible(in English translation no less!)is an attempt to substitue the genuine mystery of the universe with vulgar, ninth rate soap opera. I know a few evangelicals. They are either motivated by base instincts such as fear of hell fire and the hope for hevenly reward, or petty hopes and despairs experienced in their own puny lives.There is no contemplation of the bigger cosmos, nothing outside that tiny puddle which is their own personal lives. There is no room for genuine "mystry" and spirituality in their beliefs.All questions are answered in the most prochial ways. A God that sits and watches hundreds of thousands die in horrific events like the recent Tsunaime but obsessed with who gay men go to bad with can only be described as petty and mean. This is the kind of God the fundamentalists worship because they fashion him in their own ugly images. We should recognize there is no necessary correlation between being "spiritual" and being religious

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 03:46 AM
ID is compatible with faith in God(s) and higher levels of intelligence. Darwinism denies that evolution is guided by any kind of intelligence; therefore Darwinism is compatible with atheism. Atheists love Darwinism and always have, and they would be lost without it. Creationism is the silly belief that the Judeo-Christian creation myth is literally true.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 03:44 AM
Intelligent Design is NOT creationism. It is a theory of evolution that preceded Darwin's theory. ID merely says that complex natural systems evolve towards higher levels of complexity. This is obviously true of life on earth. Darwinism says that nature is dead and life originated and evolved haphazardly. ID says that nature is alive and intelligent, that the universe is a great mind.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Dowling, John at Jan 06, 2005 03:41 AM
(con't) I like what Noam says about religion. He said something I often use when I get accused of being anti-American by fundie-nationalists... the concept "anti" being totalitarian in nature & going back to King Ahab... I love being able to give biblical examples against fundies. Given Noam's background, i bet he could contribute something to Zinn's people's history series... such as: A People's History in the Old Testament... Ahhh... wouldn't that be a great read! "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them." --George Bush

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 03:41 AM
Christian fundamentalism is popular in the US because, unlike many secularized protestant sects, it has a strong mystical dimension. Most Americans only know Christianity, so if they have a spiritual "radio," there is not much else to choose from. I think that if all Americans studied comparative religion, many would choose Buddhism, kabbala yoga, etc., rather than fundamentalist Christianity.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Dowling, John at Jan 06, 2005 03:41 AM
The country was founded by religious extremists... Zinn's People's History makes some interesting comments on this. I think it's pretty normal to have some kind of religious belief (maybe cause I'm American)... who doesn't ponder why we are here? The biggest problem I have w/religion is the fundies. Their perception is derived from the Bible, which is chock full of mass-murder & genocide. They look to violence as acceptable because they think God proves by these actions it's okay. These biblical atrocities are merely primitive tribal histories... all the religions have them. They take this as literal historical truth. There is a creationist museum opening in Kentucky soon... Bush has bankrolled faith-based groups last year over a billion dollars... it just keeps getting worse... (con't)

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 03:37 AM
Religion and mysticism are simply the awareness of super-physical aspects of the world. Before the radio, no one would have believed that invisible radio waves exist. Similarly, people who do not have a spiritual "radio" think religious believers are stupid or delusional. Christian fundamentalism has great spiritual depth, in spite of its silly belief that the bible should be taken literally.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tdc, Wtgn at Jan 06, 2005 03:29 AM
You know what I love about this discussion, the depth of it all. Here we have a group of tards who mock those who believe in something in which they have no tangible proof as irrational hicks. These same tards, however, have no problem with worshiping at the altar of Marxism, itself a belief system with absolutely no evidence that its central tenants are true. What gives? Why the hatin? You want to know why religion is on the decline in Europe, the answer is quite simple: the Euro left has been very successful in its Long March, thankfully the American and to a lesser extent the Canadian left have floundered and been fought during their attempted Long March.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Jan 06, 2005 02:53 AM
For what it's worth, I think religion's not a bad attribute for a culture to have. And according to these statistics, American's got a lot of it, in one form or another. For one thing, that tells us something about the general population that we often want to talk with about important ideas. It's going to be really important not to demean people even if we might happen to disagree personally. And as long as we're expressing personal views here, well, I'm personally comfortable with a sense of mystery about it all. I mean, who knows?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Jan 06, 2005 02:48 AM
Religion's aren't stupid, people are stupid. Religions are varied, some very sophisticated and enlightening, others the opposite ie. foolish and lobotomizing. The Vedanta based religions or Sufism are high quality and intellectual religions that offer great insight, whereas Biblical literalism suffers from being more harmfull then helpfull if you are a serious follower. Point is, religion can be good or bad. Some religions expand your awareness and understanding of your world, others put a straight jacket around your mind and you end up in a looney bin masquerading as a religious social scene wondering why everyone thinks you're nuts, can't they see Satan is their master and they are all going to Hell ?

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Jan 06, 2005 02:32 AM
yeah, religion's stupid. but on a positive note, I should add that America is losing its religion and has been steadily for the past several decades. Although most Americans still say they believe in God, actual religious observance (e.g. church attendance) has gone down. Also, fundamentalist religious ideas are steadily losing popularity. The reason religion/culture seemed to play such a big role in this election is that America is liberalizing on these cultural issues like gay marriage. Think about it. The idea of gay marriage would have been intolerable just 10/20 years ago. I think TV may have something to do with it. TV and generational change.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Jan 06, 2005 02:28 AM
So Religion in El Norte for the mass of rednecks who treat religion like some kind of entertainment or social event or political cause, is [b]escapism[/b] from the blah that is America. In the ex Iron Curtain we see a rise in religion because of it's novelty, because it was forbidden fruit, because they are also still very poor, unlike western Europe. They don't have the resources to enjoy their cultural heritage like western europeans, they are less likely to be interested in religion the better off financially they are. Whereas in North America it's not about wealth so much, it's about escapism from a cultural void. Football and the race track, shopping and gettin yer hair done, walking around "Main street U.S.A" and driving through city after small town all looking the same, etc. It's enough to drive you to drink, drugs, and or Jaysus brother ! If you are wealthy enough you can get your little piece of quiet and travel a lot. Most Fundamentalists are working people who can't afford the lifestyles of the upper middle classes, they are church oriented because it is pure escapism from their lives of quiet desperation. La Dolce Vita is the opposite of the American scene.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Jan 06, 2005 02:12 AM
r4d20 said: "Our culture is every bit as valid as Europes.". Valid or not, quality is what I speak of. In Prague or a Barcelona or really anywhere in Europe, because travel is easy and multicultural experiences are close by, the people [b]have things to do[/b] that are not repetitive and mind numbingingly shallow, ugly, madison avenue-ized, and uninteresting and non stimulating. [think pro sports, car races, hanging out at malls/shopping, bland architecture of cities, strip mall civilization, high culture in cities is greenwich village or Haight ashbury etc] America is the land of where you have to really search hard for a cultural experience, and even then it's like finding a diamond while swimming in a cesspool, it may be shiny and excite you for a while, but the smell is still there. In Europe the ideal has been that societies own self interest is served by culture, and that commerce should not ruin the quality of life. Of course the Huns are always at the gates wanting to rip apart your pillows and piss on the carpets. In America the Huns have ruled and rough shod because America was their factory town, while they maintained villas in Tuscany, it's still like that.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 06, 2005 01:35 AM
Way to go ace!

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 01:29 AM
"Reading, after a certain age, diverts the mind too much from its creative pursuits. Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking. -Albert Einstein" It is not without irony that 7 natures posted this quote from Einsten. But being too pompous and clearly lacking a sense humour, I doubt that 7 actually sees the irony. Let him revel in the superiority of being an erudited fool. Now I am going to join the other ignorant fools.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 06, 2005 01:27 AM
“American fundamentalism goes back to Colonial days. It's simple - when a country is founded by religious fanatics there will be a segment of the population that continues to teach those values to their children. So, it's not our "lack of culture" but a simple result of historical events.” While I think you have a valid point, and I agree that the depraved culture theory is pure ignorance, I don't think you argument explains why Europe religiosity declined while the US did not. While many religious extremists came to America there were many who stayed behind. One explanation, which I think may play into it, is that Japan and much of Europe had state religions and some still do, while the US has had religious freedom. One explanation may therefore be that religion in still associated with state oppression in Japan and Europe. The experience of post-soviet nations becoming increasingly religions would support this view since in these nations religious repression is likewise associated with state oppression.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 06, 2005 01:17 AM
irrational - 1.lacking sound judgement or logic 2.not controlled or governed by reason 3.no having the power of reason rational - 1.based on reason;fitting in with reason; sensible 2. using reason 3.sane; able to think or speak clearly and logically It is irrational to define irrational in such a way that allow ignorant fools to have irrational beliefs!!

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 06, 2005 01:11 AM
arrg Correction actual social mobility but rather perceived social mobility.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 06, 2005 01:07 AM
“Aquinas -the most advanced rational thinker of all time - made a theologically and philosophically compelling argument based on the actual existance of the Universe, and that in fact GOD has revealed himself thru creation which stands as proof of his existance.” As bwongpoints out God is just one of an infinite number of fantastical solutions to unanswered questions. Aquinas's theory is self-serving and self rationalizing. Which hardly qualifies him as “the most advanced rational thinker of all time.”

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 06, 2005 01:04 AM
American fundamentalism goes back to Colonial days. It's simple - when a country is founded by religious fanatics there will be a segment of the population that continues to teach those values to their children. So, it's not our "lack of culture" but a simple result of historical events.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 06, 2005 01:00 AM
" The reason that we see this axiom turned on it's head in North America is because of the cultural wasteland" Whatever. Our culture is every bit as valid as Europes, Japans, or any other place. Saying America has no culture because we have Wal-Mart and not the Louvre is every bit as bigoted as saying Chinese have no culture cause they eat with chopsticks instead of a knife and fork.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 06, 2005 00:52 AM
Chomsky has no understanding of religion or mysticism. I suppose he is implying there is something inferior about the US because so many of its citizens have "irrational" beliefs. "Irrational" is defined, I guess, as something you don't agree with or don't understand.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 06, 2005 00:51 AM
Notice the replies. The key to the beginning of social change is a universal acceptance of human nature. We choose to believe what we want to believe. Notice I said "I am absolutely certain that If GOD exists - he is far greater and more unknowable than man can possibly imagine." If is the critical word. Aquinas -the most advanced rational thinker of all time - made a theologically and philosophically compelling argument based on the actual existance of the Universe, and that in fact GOD has revealed himself thru creation which stands as proof of his existance. If GOD is the universe wether you choose to believe that or not is a choice - and that's a fact you cannot deny. Law and government have been in the business of ordering society based on religious values, an historical truth. I attempted to invoke response that was rational. It does not concern me what you believe or how you were enlightened. What is of great concern is that the ordering of society has been effected by a belief in an irrational GOD.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 06, 2005 00:48 AM
“But social mobility is definitely less likely in Europe than in the U.S.” Thanks for the explanation but I was not talking about actual social mobility but rather preserved societal mobility. My basic point though poorly made was that the disparity between haves and have nots is better correlated for religiosity than national wealth. The greater the divide between haves and have-nots the greater the religiosity, the smaller the divide the less religiosity. Ultimately I think the relationship revolves around the issue of social justice. I used upward mobility, because that seems to be the paradigm for social justice we in America buy into most. It was probably a poor choice.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 00:39 AM
I think guru dave is right on. The crassness of North American culture also helps explain the singular conception of "God" in the U.S(to a degree Canada also). TV evangelist is a uniquely North American phenonmenon even though like fast food it is being exported to other places, most notably South Korea where the Chritstian fundamentalists are even more militant than they are here. I read in am artcle in some mag(Times?)where TV evaneglists were referred to as "religion entrepnuer".

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 00:25 AM
"This compared to Europe and Japan where the income disparity is not as great and where attaining moderate success seems more realistic." You are wrong factually here. It is true that in Europe there is a smaller dispersion of income among the general public(hence the "low" income groups are doing much better in relative terms) because of generous social transfer. But social mobnility is definitely less likely in Europe than in the U.S. France being the worst country in terms of social mobility.The cast system there is arguably more rigid than England. It is a mistake to think that Europe is anything resembling "Socialist". Europe is basically still fedualistic but with a strong social contract won from years of agitations from below. The Lords can be lords as long as they cough up enough for the general folks. But they are stil Lords nevertheless. The whole of France is still owned by a few families going all the way back to the Sun King. In Germany you actually have to have an official religion.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 06, 2005 00:10 AM
Marx reportedly wrote at some margin, "God=I don't know, but ignorance is not an argument" The "God" of "intelligent design"("irreducible complexity" has been debunked) and the God of "first cause" are nothing but fillers. You go and invent a name for whatever that you don't have an answer for. There is absolute zero content in this conception of "God". It would have been called "the green elephant" , or simply "x", intsead of "God". So everytime you encounter a phenomenon you do not comprehend, it is the green elephant at work.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 05, 2005 23:59 PM
“When measuring large populations it is only natural that the less well off populations will be more interested in religion then the wealthier populations. For most people the amount of time spent on religious thought is based on their economic prowess or lack thereof. If you are poor and have little to no hope of rising in the socio-economic sphere, religion acts as Marx put it: as an opiate. It gives relief to the mental pain of hopelessness.” I think you are right here but I would give an alternate opinion that more closely relates to your previous position that is that in North America there is greater disparity between the rich and the poor reinforcing the realization that upward mobility is illusionary and for most unattainable. This compared to Europe and Japan where the income disparity is not as great and where attaining moderate success seems more realistic.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 05, 2005 23:53 PM
sorry it should read If we are to ever assume that there is an end to the causal relationship of all things then any unknown effect should do until we are proved wrong and it's cause is revealed.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Jan 05, 2005 23:51 PM
When measuring large populations it is only natural that the less well off populations will be more interested in religion then the wealthier populations. For most people the amount of time spent on religious thought is based on their economic prowess or lack thereof. If you are poor and have little to no hope of rising in the socio-economic sphere, religion acts as Marx put it: as an opiate. It gives relief to the mental pain of hopelessness. The reason that we see this axiom turned on it's head in North America is because of the cultural wasteland that is North America. In Europe the cultural offerings are sublime, in Japan the culture is diverse, in America culturally satisfying activity and experience is conspicuous by it's absence. In America the cultural void leads to depression and a huge intake of prescription drugs as well as a search for fullfillment in the religious milieu, sporting events, and the entertainment media. These things are used to try to fill the void that is filled for the people in Europe by their diverse cultural offerings.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 05, 2005 23:49 PM
“The "First Cause" has a serious problem. This theory resides on the notion that everything must have a cause. But here is the problem; if everything must have a cause then God/des/s must have a cause. If the God/des/s has no cause then why assume that the Universe should have a cause. If we are to ever assume that there is an end to the causal relationship of all things then any unknown cause should do until we are proved wrong and it's cause is revealed.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Cfraserh, Haps33 at Jan 05, 2005 23:41 PM
Well, just to add my two cents, I haven't believed in God for about 15 years (and I'm only 27, so when I was old enough to seriously think about it, it didn't take long to figure it out). I think there's a very strong correlation between most people's concept of God and their political beliefs, as I assume Prof. Chomsky was implying. I think the belief , in general, that "something greater" than us is at work can easily lead to the delusion that we are required to do nothing, or less than we normally would. I can understand how some very intelligent people find emotional solace in religion, I've been forced to accept it; and religion has helped people, but not more than it's hurt people, and I think the ways it did help don't require a belief in a supernatural ominscient being - we could do the same if everybody stuck to ethics we don't need to read out of a 2000 year old book. Just my opinion (obviously) :)

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 05, 2005 23:23 PM
“The "First Cause" and "Rational Design" theory's are a believable foundation establishing a strong likelihood that GOD in fact does exist.” When we say things exist what we are taking about is cause and effect. Gravity “exists” because every time I throw an apple in the air I “know” with a strong probability of certainty that it comes back down at a rate I can predict. Rationales for God and the like such as First Cause" and "Rational Design" are not based on cause and effect. They are based on speculation of the origins of a situational relationship. God will have a strong likelihood of existing when I begin to interact with him/her/them in such a way that I can predict outcomes that I can empirically measure.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 05, 2005 22:39 PM
Cont'd I am absolutely certain that If GOD exists - he is far greater and more unknowable than man can possibly imagine. The "First Cause" and "Rational Design" theory's are a believable foundation establishing a strong likelyhood that GOD in fact does exist. That said it is a sad historical fact that all codified world law and their governments are based on irrational religious dogma. The US -Saudi Arabia - Isreal are worst case senarios. Any society based on irrational accepted truth is going to be and act irrationally. That is the sad history of the world.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 05, 2005 22:38 PM
A life fully lived led me on a search for rational believable truth. The Bible and Plato and Augustine and Aquinas and Freud and Merton and John Paul and Kreeft and Lewis and Nietzsche and Einstein and many many others. I stopped all my reading one day when a cleric whom I respected and admired as a holy man gave me a flipant response to a deep emotional scar that had burned a place within my soul, you know that place were we all live alone. I started to think. Trying to makes sense of life, of my search for "truth". All the "smart" minds of history - could they all be wrong. Was I in fact an educated/ indoctrinated fool who had bought convential "wisdom" lock stock and barrel. I found the answer to that question because I had the luxury to think. Attempting free - clear -rational thought - accepting no dogma as true. That lead me to a conclusion that all of humanity had been driven by false religious dogma and were worshiping false gods.

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Provocateur, Agent at Jan 05, 2005 22:01 PM
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/1990----.htm The above interview (link) by Chomsky put me on the path of rationality. I a former Christian fundamentalist. I have been losing my faith since I was about 21 (I'm 30 now) and last year after reading the above interview I had a new outlook. Chomsky said that "the Bible is probably the most genocidal book in our entire literary canon" and I agree with him. For example check out 2nd Samuel Chapter 24. http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl2.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl1.htm

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Re: American Fundamentalism

By Shannon, James at Jan 05, 2005 21:42 PM
Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions. - Albert Einstein Reading, after a certain age, diverts the mind too much from its creative pursuits. Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking. -Albert Einstein The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge. -Albert Einstein

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