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Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Noam Chomsky at Dec 20, 2004

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Bakunin's point was, I think, pretty simple. Within the larger society, it is possible to build structures that capture hopes for the future. For example, free schools, or self-managed cooperatives (like South End press, or worker-run factories in Argentina), or innumerable other examples in communities and workplaces, extending as feasible to larger enterprises, such as the very extensive Mondragon complex in Spain (significant, though limited in extent of worker control). And in fact whatever the energies and commitment of participants will make feasible. The death penalty and incarceration raise completely different issues. The death penalty can be tolerated only by extreme statist reactionaries, who demand a state that is so powerful that it has the right to kill.  It is ironic that proponents call themselves "conservatives." As for the incarceration generally, a whole range of issues arise.  Why has the US gone off the spectrum of industrial societies since the late 70s, including a 50% increase in incarceration during the Clinton-Gore years -- more than enough to have swung the 2000 election?  One very clear element is the drug laws, designed to criminalize the poor and ethnic minorities.  Institute a sane approach to substance abuse, and the prison-industrial complex, as it's sometimes called, would shrink dramatically.  That doesn't eliminate all problems.  It will always be the case, presumably, that societies will want to protect themselves from people who are just too dangerous and cannot be dealt with by ordinary means.  That should be done as humanely as possible, and while the problem is not likely ever to disappear, it would be at most a marginal one if the causes of what is called "criminal behavior" were addressed.  I add "what is called," because some of the worst criminal behavior is not criminalized, not only state crimes but also corporate crimes.  The history of corporate manslaughter is an atrocity, still continuing.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By K, Mr at Jan 03, 2005 05:35 AM
the merger is complete. neo-con control of the yankee government allows for corporate murder and imprisonment because it generates good business. make lotsa rules for hominids to break then lock em up and tax the other 'free' hominids for holding em. kill em off if the animals crime is bad enough. wait till it's a crime to be poor! that's the one i'm waiting for. that italian was right. yankee land is facist land and the imprisonment of it's people through laws created for profit only shows that the capitalist system has no values other than to exploit for profit. wait till ya go to jail for late fees at the video store. like enoughs enough. general strike shut down the system.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Tarakelton, Taratulsi at Dec 31, 2004 05:16 AM
bikes or cars - neither seem as energy depleting as this debate has been. i have a new solution. stop arguing and make changes. new infrastructure with better public transformation, bike usuage (where possible), and alternative energy sources are all highly possible solutions. we have had the capacity to use alternative/less energy for a while now, but the systems in place don´t allow for it. this is probably out of human ignorance and greed. telling people to ride bikes is certainly a good thing but a general increase in awareness combined with an increase in individual action will certainly help. i for one, remain optimistic.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Organum, Baby at Dec 28, 2004 19:25 PM
Marx beat Bakunin in the 1.international just as the Bolsjeviks beat the Anarchists on the ukranian steppes and stole the symbol of the red star. Maybe a philosophy of agression is best. In wich case it would be ok to drive the speed you want where you want. Hospitals would be the problem that leads to overpopulation and unneccesary human suffering ?

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 28, 2004 18:24 PM
from above And I'm not the mad drill sergeant who would force everybody to feats of athletics. If I can avoid having to cycle more than 10 miles each way, I'll probably do it. Now 20 miles is an hour's commute. A bit long, but absolutely within my very unathletic means. I agree the need for speed makes dangerous drivers; and I won't excuse uncouth behaviour from cyclists vs. people on foot. Just this: what causes more danger: a mad bull at the wheel of a few tons and acres of steel, or a mad bull pedalling away on a pair of slim wheels? What's more, the one pedalling has some way to vent his high passion.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 28, 2004 18:09 PM
Ah bwong, let's make things clear, shall we. I am NOT asking to ban cars, I am appealing to you personally, reader, to stop using YOUR car. Cars can be useful, commuting alone to work in one is a frivolous luxury though. There is a no comparison between the environmental impact of cars as opposed computers and bikes. I could power my computer with a hand-cranked dynamo, if I wanted to. One well-made bicycle can deliver 15 years or more of pollution-free commutes. Not quite the same scale, is it? My proposed solution is not the end of travel, but travel under our own power, in person, so that we can smile and excuse ourselves verbally to other road-users we might have offended. continued below

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 27, 2004 15:08 PM
Corrections for the last message: "These guys are biking HIGH SPPED on side walks, knocking over little old ladies, running redlight, riding in the wrong direction(and give you the finger to boot).. these lunatics are worse than any driver I have encountered. But that is not a reason to ban bike any more than drivers with a short fuse is a reason to ban cars."

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 27, 2004 15:06 PM
"Moreover, sitting behind the wheel tends to make restraint of agression difficult." And riding a bike won't? Have you met a bike courier? These guys are biking HIGH SPPED on side walks, knocking over little old ladies, running redlight, riding in the wrong direction(and give you the finger to boot).. these lunatics are worse than any driver I have encounter. But that is not a reason to ban bike any more than drivers with a short fuse is a reason to ban bike. "Traffic jams make frustrated, angry little devils out of drivers. " And yout solution is apparantly not to travel at all(it is unrealistic to expect most people to bike for 50 miles everyday, give me a break). Good thinking.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 27, 2004 15:05 PM
Why are you having children? Given what a North American would consume in his/her lifetime, children in the developed countries is an important source of enviromental strain. You should be advocating forced sterilization for the U.S.A in order to be consistent with your "the sky is falling" position.

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Person

Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 27, 2004 15:04 PM
"These days, railing against cars makes you out a stark raving looney." I think you're more like "raving against" cars. It is the raving that makes you a looney. "Knowing the household budget of the earth, it is madness to use cars as your main a to b thingummy." But you refuse to answer my questions. If you think the household bugdet of the earth is so dire why do you use the computer? Why do you use electricity? How do you make steel(for your bike) without depleting the earth's enery reserve and iron ore? What about home heating? I suppose you can light a fire in your high rise apartment. I can transcribe your argument against car word for word to advocating banning all and any of these things you take for granted.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 27, 2004 14:41 PM
Michael Dawson, I am not sure if I am guilty of bad logic, though I am sure you're guilty of bad reading comprehension. I was high lighting Lucko's(and your) absurd, over the top rhetorics with something equally absurd. Now I see you're changing your argument, and quite drastically. There is a big difference between debating the "dominace of car in the transportation system" and advocating "getting rid the car, peroid",--which is luko's point(and yours may be until now) I have no problem agreeing with the position that cars are way overused and we should make every effort to eliminate frivolous uses and reduce waste through car pooling, better public transit system and better city planning etc. But what you and luko have been advocating is eliminating cars altogether, and that somehow the bike is able to fulfill all travel need. That is an utterly absurd position which, as I pointed out, only undermines whatever valid points you may have.

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Mcd

Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Dawson, Michael at Dec 26, 2004 22:32 PM
Bwong, you are a victim of bad logic, at least. Everybody dies, and all travel imposes risks. From that, you draw the conclusion that it's not valid to debate automobiles' dominance over our transportation order? Think a little harder. Everybody dies and all food-eating carries some risk. Therefore, it's OK to eat nothing but candy. That is your argument. Why are you so reluctant to think about this life-and-death topic?

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 26, 2004 14:08 PM
...from above In the fifties, boycotting SouthAfrica seemed a silly idea. Apperently, it wasn't. These days, railing against cars makes you out a stark raving looney. Completely the reverse is true. Knowing the household budget of the earth, it is madness to use cars as your main a to b thingummy. Moreover, sitting behind the wheel tends to make restraint of agression difficult. Traffic jams make frustrated, angry little devils out of drivers. Perceptions about symptoms of 'loosing your marbles' need to be carefully readjusted...

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 26, 2004 14:07 PM
bwong: "For example, city planing, traffic rules, irresponsible, unnecessary use of cars, and the bad roadside manners of some drivers(and some cyclists by the way, have you met a bike courier?). None of this is intrinsic to car as a mode of transportation itself. " Sorry, but they all are. Intrinsic to car use, that is. My city looks the way it does because people have decided that cars are 'reasonably' the only feasible mode of transport. Public space in the western world has largely become car space. It stinks out there, of benzenes, and acetone, and the gases that don't reek are maybe the most deadly. And when you testify, the answer is the one Paul Street got: 'nothing can be done'. Well, I can tell you this: there is a f**king lot can be done. But don't wait for anybody to do it in your staid, nobody will. continued...

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 26, 2004 12:56 PM
Bwong I'm sorry you keep accusing me of things I have refuted. And I'm sorry you have to resort to wild jumps in scale (entropy & the environmental impact of bycicle construction and e-mail)- to depict our arguments as ridiculous. I do NOT want to go back to the cave. (Third time I said that). Radio's and fridges and electric lighting and much more are fine inventions I would not want to lose. Which is exactly why we should stop driving cars now. So we have a little bit of juice left. Oil is a finite resource, and for all practical purposes, it will be gone within our lifetimes & our children's lifetimes. Car use transforms fine cities into illness breeding hells. Patterns of oil consumption among the world are about as just as patterns of food consumption. Global Warming is destroying crops allready. (Remember how many hurricanes florida had this year?) Mechanized agriculture is pushing aside subsistence farming. If you think oil, and the use of it, are not among the most urgent of problems to be solved... reminds me of my grandmother who was selectively deaf. She just about chose what she wanted to hear and what to misunderstand. merry christmas

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 25, 2004 07:20 AM
Merry Christmas Luko, even though I disagree with you on this one.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 25, 2004 07:14 AM
BTW, Lucko, if I am not mistaken you use a computer to post your messages. Now is that enviromentally responsible? Think of the resources that needed to be consumed to make the hardwares, the electricty that you use up... Is that over indulging while you could have written your polemics with a quill and post it on some billboard. Is it hypocrasy or what? Jesus!

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 25, 2004 07:09 AM
By relying on broad stroke generalizations and hysterical polemics you only undermine whatever valid points you may have . Is it any wonder you are laughted at on university campuses? You keep asking what kind of world will we leave for "our children". Well if you think the world so bleak that we cannot survive without devolving back to cave I wonder why do you want to have children in the first place. Now that is irresponsible.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 25, 2004 07:07 AM
If you wish to indulge in absurd arguments,I can certainly entertain. How about this? According to the second law of thermodynamics the universe is inevitably and perpetually winding down(useful form of energy is degraded into useless, molecular chaos, aka heat). Eventually the universe will die of a heat death(a plausible scenario unless the universe keep on expanding). So "resources" will be exhausted by nature even if we haven't existed. Therefore, everything you do or don't do is pointless. Q.E.D

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Person

Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 25, 2004 07:05 AM
Not only are you against cars as they are currently designed. You seem to be against any possible improvement because, they all costs energy(or, more correctly, they all lead to an increase of entropy) . Now tell me if there is process in this world that doesn't have enviromental cost? Your beloved bicycle is made of steel. How is steel being made without enviromental cost?

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Person

Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 25, 2004 07:02 AM
Now there are risk inherented high speed motion, but that is the price to pay with our enormously enhanced mobility. To make a simple analogy that I hope even you can understand, there will be no death due to plane crashes if the aeroplane has not been invented. But it would be a very bazare argument to say areosapce technology serves no useful purpose but to kill people.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 25, 2004 07:02 AM
The problems you mention such as traffic jams, pollution and hazard to pedestrians and cyclists have to do with many factors. For example, city planing, traffic rules, irresponsible, unnecessary use of cars, and the bad roadside manners of some drivers(and some cyclists by the way, have you met a bike courier?). None of this is intrinsic to car as a mode of transportation itself. All these problems can be addressed(and should be addressed.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 25, 2004 03:11 AM
No, cars are just fine. Matter of fact, a replacement for the trusty internal combustion motor is being invented right now! Not! Hydrogen looks cool cuz it don't pollute, ya just need a lot of juice to produce it. Nuclear has the same basic problem: not quite cost-effective. To stop using cars is necesary because of global warming pollution (more babies die in car-rich environments) depletion of oil reserves social and economic justice: It is unjust that we can squander resources, while those we plunder for those resources remain in desperate straits. Dawson got it bull's eye: cars are killing machines. Lethal without intent.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 25, 2004 02:38 AM
You're right bwong, cars are made for transport, for comfort and enjoyment. We have built our lives around cars. More than three quarters of public space is car domain: human beings do not have accesss. We spend our early mornings and evenings in endless traffic jams, spewing noxious gases while standing still. News about car accidents, dead pedestrians and cyclists is relegated to local news, and 'faits divers'. Radio spends more time on the traffic jams of the moment than publicity! In high summer and deep winter, elderly people, children and cyclists are dayly advised to stay indoors because of pollution. What's your point bwong? Cars are ok?

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 23, 2004 22:07 PM
No, Dawson, I think you are the victim of your ideology. Coporations make everything in order to maximaize profit, including the bicycle you ride. Moreover, your bicycle(at least some parts)is probably made in some third world country where workers are paid slave wages. At least auto workers are unionized. So what is your point? Yes, there is always some risks if you travel. If everyone stay home and vegitate I suppose there would be much less fatality die to traffic accidents. But that is a completely stupid argument, I hope even an idealogue like yourself can see it. You sound as if car are built for the purpose of killing. This is just as reasonable as accusing mothers as murderers. Life is 100% fatal, far worst a record than cars if I follow your non logic.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Organum, Baby at Dec 23, 2004 22:06 PM
Importnt thing is not to define cars. They take , as wel as save life. Question is, how do we maximize potential for fellow man. PS We are all victims of ideological pressure

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Mcd

Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Dawson, Michael at Dec 23, 2004 21:24 PM
Bwong, I wonder why _wouldn't_ you make the statement that cars are deadly? The car's first purpose is to maximize corporate profits. As an inescapable by-product of what the car is (an independently-steered, high-speed box), it kills far more people each year than would any conceivable alternative modern transportation order. It's makers are highly aware and militantly sensitive about these facts. Why do you deny this? Are you a victim of ideology?

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Organum, Baby at Dec 23, 2004 03:50 AM
PS in the christian faith the death penalty is just a illegal as the hoarding of treasure.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Organum, Baby at Dec 23, 2004 03:32 AM
My dream cooperative would plan and build eco-environments for bigger groups and then sell it on the "free" market with profit for interested groups. ( people with children or concience ) Recycled garbage ( moneysaver ) energyconserving noplast-housing (moneysaver) serviceroads but not dimensioned for private car orgies (moneysaver) free of MCsugarhormones (moneysaver as well as removing subliminal poisoning of childrens minds) This sounds like camp-hill. Difference should be. Have it run by pro-economists and workers. Not idealists doing quaker-style selfrealisation.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 23, 2004 03:28 AM
Ah cummon. A horse you ride should be a friend. ;-) And yes bwong, I do be parsimonious to extremes. I wouldn't want to be surprized by enforced cold. No reason to give up though. Fun is when you huddle together in the cold and tell stories. A fire shared among many is much more efficient than individual bathroom heaters.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 23, 2004 02:04 AM
I was about to suggest horse riding maybe one politically correct alternative to cars. But then I realized the idea of animal slavery may upset the animal right activists and that horses contribute heavily to green house gas in the atmosphere. I give up.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 23, 2004 01:57 AM
But I certainly would not make the extreme statement that cars in themselves are "murder machines"(or something to that effect) as Dawson alledged. Remember that is how this exchange began in the first place. If you are so concerned about the oil reserve being used up, have you cut off the heat,water and electricity in your house yet? I am sure you will save a lot more on utility bills on top of free work out.Afterall, humanity have lived very well without artifial heat and electricty for thousands of years.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 23, 2004 01:56 AM
"..I like bicycles and instant communication. But just look at the rate we are using up oil. .." I am not disputing that our current rate of usage is extreme.There are certainly a lot of frivolous, wasteful use of resources(not just oil) that we can drastically cut down. There are many steps to cut down waste, for example, better city planing, more investment in public transit, more bike lanes, heavy taxes on gas guzzeling vehicles like SUV(or heavy taxes on the second car like in Singapore) and car pooling , etc.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 23, 2004 01:40 AM
"Its impossible to live without cars in most of Usa because you create this environment , just as it is unsafe to drive an old small car because cars are supposed to grow inches and horsepowers each year" Do you create the huge distance between cities? How do you cycle across states? I know,Luko would remind us our ancestor migrated out of Africa on foot and Marco Polo went to China on a horse, but I am not taking about people who can spend weeks or months just for the purpose of going from point A to point B. We didn't create the weather either. If Luko likes to bike 20 miles in howling wind and -20 degrees C(not uncommon in our Northern provinces)everyday to get free exercises that is his right. But please don't tell us everyone else is somehow morally deprived.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 22, 2004 23:02 PM
Thatwas supposed to be a smile, not a sarcastic look. :D

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 22, 2004 22:59 PM
"I am way this side of forty, and twenty miles is not madness, but expediency. Slightly over an hour's ride. That is two hours of light exercice each day, and no gym fees. " Actually, that soundsl ike a good deal :).

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Organum, Baby at Dec 22, 2004 22:54 PM
Its impossible to live without cars in most of Usa because you create this environment , just as it is unsafe to drive an old small car because cars are supposed to grow inches and horsepowers each year. Their safety create unsafety for those choosing eco-nomical-logical solutions.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 22, 2004 21:34 PM
ctd. Please don't accuse me of wanting us back in caves. I don't. I like bicycles and instant communication. But just look at the rate we are using up oil. It took us a century to get to peak oil production, and it won't take us 50 years to use up what is left. Nuclear costs more than it produces, Hydrogen needs giant energy input for the production of it, and the 'free' alternatives, well, we haven't really started yet. Add it up. Using oil, we could feed all six billion of us. before oil the earth carried two billion. After oil we will possibly be able to feed more than 2, but certainly less than 6. Me, or you, or your child will have to die, so that the ones left can eat. And it is not 50 years away (as if that could made it better), but the day after tomorrow. Soon enough so we will see it happening. I admit, it looks hopeless. But it isn't. Results we get from working, not from waiting for somebody else to do it for us. Besides, I've got kids. Can't afford hopelessness.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 22, 2004 21:34 PM
I am way this side of forty, and twenty miles is not madness, but expediency. Slightly over an hour's ride. That is two hours of light exercice each day, and no gym fees. Madness? Too much sacrifice to ask? My grandfather had to walk a day long to get to work. That was a bit much. But don't expect me to commiserate with a little bit of physical effort. If the trek to work is less than 10 miles, and you still think you need a car, you're nuts. ctd.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 22, 2004 16:08 PM
"And if that means I have to ride 20 miles to work, that's it. The price I have to pay. It's not that hard. I'm thinner, stronger and happier (and proud) since I ride the bike" There we go again. If you think it is realistic to bike 20 miles to work everyday, that is your choice and you're entitled to it. But you can't realistically expect everyone to subscribe to such madness. You sound like you have just discovered biking. Well, I have been biking since I am 17 and I am now 33. I have always been thin and fit.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 22, 2004 16:03 PM
I understand your point perfectly, but you seem to be missing mine. Nowhere did I suggest that you should grab and eat all your sweet. I am all for a more equitable distribution of resources and cuting back on consumptions(which I agree is grotesque). But you are taking the extreme position that there shouldn't any use of car at all. I am saying to you this is not realistic for one, nor is it desirable. Do you use electricity in your house? I suppose you do, or you won't be able to post this message. You make it sound like we can only choose between going back to the cave(all development in the west was built on slavery thus development is bad) or rape and plunder. I don't agree with such logic. If that is the case, there is really no point in doing anything. You may as well resign to the cynicism of r4k20.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 22, 2004 12:45 PM
About privileges and rights, luxuries and needs. It helps to clarify for yourself what they are. For me, rights and needs include seeing your kids grow up happy, sharing life with a loving partner and a friendly community, and doing a job I can be proud of. And providing good food to those around you. Making music. All the material perks our culture provides can be great fun, but they are mostly irrelevant to what happiness is about. Happiness is what you do, not what you have. Now, amongst people who would share, one who would have more than his share becomes a thief. I'm sure none of us like that thought to niggle at our consciences. I do my best not to take more than my share of the earths blessings. It would be immoral to do otherwise. And if that means I have to ride 20 miles to work, that's it. The price I have to pay. It's not that hard. I'm thinner, stronger and happier (and proud) since I ride the bike.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 22, 2004 11:49 AM
Bwong, I'm sorry you shredded my quotes. And I couldn't patronize you. My point is, that within our lifetimes, oil will not be available in the manner that we have gotten used to. Alternative energy is a long way from being able to fill our 'needs'. The West has had a century of incredible richness and luxury, made possible through lavish and unlimited use of oil. Before that, the fuel of affluence was mostly slavery... We use cars cuz they're there, gas is payable, and we *can*. Easy. But every drop we use is 'stolen' from people who might have better use of it than we do - now or in the future. Is it ok that the kid who grabbed all the sweets should eat them all? That's the other point: if you live well, the rest of the world is paying for your well-being. Living a bit poorer might not be a bad thing for us westerners.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Dec 22, 2004 08:42 AM
Speaking of corporations "back then," they used to be a pretty good means of organizing a project. Back when their rights were defined by the scope of the project charter, and expired on completion of the project. For my part, I wish we didn't have to blame them for so much these days. But it's difficult to ignore any organization that openly influences the lives of people, often with terrible outcomes, and without meaningful input from the humans affected.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 22, 2004 05:26 AM
The arms race has been going on for thousands of years. I'm sure Chomsky would like to blame that on the corporations, if only they had existed back then.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 22, 2004 01:16 AM
"The kind of car -free existence is only possible if you are living your life in some small village all your life." It is ALSO only possible if the neighboring people, who use cars etc, are nice people who respect your right to live in peace - and the history of the world shows how much you can count on THAT being true. A society with cars, and other technologies, can, and inevitably will, simply TAKE whatever it wants from the society without. No society can surivive by voluntarily stripping itself of the means to defend itself. No society can surivive by counting on the morality or good-will of it's neighbors. Ask the native americans - or at least the 1% of them that are still alive. Technology spread, not only because people liked it, but because people NEEDED it to defend themselves against the other people who had it. Example: once I have guns, you NEED guns if you want to defend yourself from me (and, trust me, you DO).

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 22, 2004 01:12 AM
I am actually agreeing with r4d20. Hell must be freezing over(opps, no more fossil fuel to keepo the lake of fire burning..)

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 22, 2004 01:10 AM
"The big question is: will we be able to feed ourselves without a petrol enhanced food production process? And if oil won't be available, what will be the 'juice' running the system?" Yes, that's why scientific research is important. But the back to the cave crowd is probably against science too because it camn be mis used. BTW, the sun will burn out one day(not something our caveman friends are aware of)even if we do nothing. What do we do then? Better lock yourself up in a dark and cold basement and fast to prepare for the day, right?

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By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 22, 2004 01:03 AM
"I've even sat for countless hours at a table on a busy university walkway chanting about our evil government and corporations and about how our media is blindfolding the public. But most students walk by without looking; some even point at us and laugh;" Oh, so YOU'RE that dude. I'm one of the laughers.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 22, 2004 01:03 AM
"Giving up such privileges is a good step to a more just society " How so? I really find this kind of "all or nothing" logic hard to swallow. There is nothing wrong with using resources as long as you do so wisely.The car is a great inventioin that imesaurably enhances our mobility.The kind of car -free existence is only possible if you are living your life in some small village all your life. But using technology doesn't mean you have to abuse it. No one say you have to drive a gas guzzling SUV, or drive if you only travel for a block. No one is stopping you from car pooling either.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 22, 2004 01:02 AM
"Cars are inherently dangerous, particularly when they are the dominant mode of personal mobility. 43,000 + people were killed in them just in the U.S. last year" Life is dangerous - and finite. Death is inevitable. The person who goes to absurd lengths to avoid death is a sad and pathetic creature who is only postponing the inevitable.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 22, 2004 01:00 AM
If cycling is that hard, just think how much energy a car is throwing away for the same job. Cars are not a god-given right, not something you get at puberty. Humanity has gotten along perfectly well without hem for thousands of years." Humanity has been gotten along perfectly well without home heating, public health care, running water, without books, and living with root canal. What is your point? "Even when it was raining, freezing, snowing and worse. Don't forget this: it's a privilege to be cosy in a car, not a right." Yes, all modern amenities are "privileges". Again, your point? Going by your logic even the bycle is a "privilege". How do you make bycle without steel? How do you make steel without using heat, which inevitably use up fuel. By your logic the only politically corect way of transportation would be to walk. Your legs, after all, are the only transportation device you're born with.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 22, 2004 00:56 AM
"Babies and bath water. Nobody is asking anybody to interdict cars." Michal Dawson is.Read his posts. "Just jump on your bike and find out for yourself exactly how much effort is required to get from A to B." It depends on the distance between point A and point B. Look, I bike year round so don't lecture me. But I happen to live in the city where things are relatively close by and I am young. I am not so self righteous to expect everyone to bike. It is ridiculous to think that people with a job can spend a few hours comuting to work by bike everyday.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 22, 2004 00:50 AM
"I don't know where you guys live, but in most places in North America it is impossible to get around without cars. " Bingo. I live outside DC and have NEVER lived closer than 25 miles from where I work. I took the metro when I could, but for the last two years I have worked where there was no bus or train from my home to there. I support change, but the magnitutde of the problem can't be ignored.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Apocalypse, Unfolding at Dec 21, 2004 23:59 PM
Lukopedistas, I totally agree we should live more frugally, more sharingly, and in more solidarity. And we definitely want to spread information about the upcoming changes in our energy resources. But how can we tell people? I've emailed everyone I know massively. Most of my friends got annoyed by this. I've told everyone in my family. And while some of them see the looming troubles, most of them are corporate employees that get more mental mileage out of denial. I've even sat for countless hours at a table on a busy university walkway chanting about our evil government and corporations and about how our media is blindfolding the public. But most students walk by without looking; some even point at us and laugh; and those that stop by - they're already familiar with these issues. So someone share some effective activist strategies and tactics! I need better ones!

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 23:21 PM
My children will have children in a world where oil is scarce and expensive. In a world where there may not be enough food to go around. I find that knowledge focuses my mind. What needs to be done becomes clear. Stop using oil ! (as much as possible)

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 22:41 PM
Global Warming is there. It 'll do what it 'll do, for better or for worse. Probably worse. The weather will not be kind. Oil will be gone soon. That means almost all of the worlds energy expenditure, all plastics, lot's of medication, all asphalt roads (excelent for cycling btw), and a lot of grease to keep the wheels lubricated. Gone. What better, clearer, more eloquent argument does one need to start being smart about what is about to happen to this world? Being parsimonious used to be considered a virtue. In the world we live in, it should be one of the most important virtues, along with solidarity and sharing.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 22:17 PM
Another thing. If we are smart enough to build communal gardens now, we will have a local and communally controlled food production process. If we wait till the crunch comes, we'll have to fight for land, food and water. You know how it goes. The mighty bastards would have all the land, and profit from our work on it. So let's take our lives in our hands before it is too late. Let's organize things so we and our kids can survive the disasters that are to befall us.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 21:49 PM
And let's not be too conbobulated about the visible efficiency of the media carpet-bombing. Most people have a clear head on their bodies. Present the oil and food problem as a simple home economics exercice, and things such as ways and means become self-evident. If you want your kids (and probably yourself too) not to go hungry, you have to scrap your car. And grow carrots & potatoes & beans & peas & everything you can eat. Because *nothing* will become cheaper as oil becomes scarce. Everything will become more expensive. Everything. Now imagine this simple equation getting through to a lot of people. And even have some of them act on it. At least some lives will become less unlivable, if only we each personally do what has to be done. And spread the message: start growing food, scrap your car.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 21:16 PM
I know, that if you dare look under the media carpet-bombing, the world becomes a very scary place to be in. But will you allow hunger to become a major killer in your community? Is it acceptable, that children from your community die because the heating bills become unpayable? We have to do something about it now, and it has to be something that is within each individuals grasp. Let's recycle our cars and build communal gardens. Our children will love us for it.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 20:44 PM
Whatever amount of petrol we use, we steal fom our children. And our children will need petrol to run hospitals and agriculture. The urgency of this petrol conbobulation is that high. In ten years time, we'll have to have learned to live without, or we'll be in very serious trouble. At the rate we're burning it, it's very nearly gone. Up in smoke. The difference between what world agriculture can sustain with against without petrol is somewhere between 2 and 4 billion people. We will have to drop from 6 to between 4 and 2. At the best estimate, that kills off one in three of us. At least one member of any family. From hunger, probably. The best thing you can do is to scrap your car now, and think about how to feed you and your neighbourhood of the land. If enough of us do this in time, we might soften the crunch. But let's not delude ourselves; as the gauls already knew 'from time to time, the sky falls on our heads'. On the other hand, if we do this,singly and together, it will be easier to get through. 'cause it gets bleeding cold, when ya finished burnin' ya furniture, an' the kids are clatterin' teeth.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Dawson, Michael at Dec 21, 2004 19:49 PM
Two comments: 1. To bwong: Cars are inherently dangerous, particularly when they are the dominant mode of personal mobility. 43,000 + people were killed in them just in the U.S. last year, and cars are also massively energy-inefficient, both in production and use. 2. To darjan: "Many different branches of homo sapiens?" Why would a KKK member be hanging around here?

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 19:40 PM
I suggest we learn to live using as little fossil energy as possible. If you're ready before it's gone, you're pretty well prepared for the hardship that will come. How do you heat your house when the petrol is too expensive, and the trees are all gone (your neighbours had the same idea)? How do you get about if you have no car? How do you get food when all the gardens have become suburbias? Can you grow food somewhere near you? Because very likely, your local cheapo supermercado will become a deluxe delicatessen for the rich, if anything at all. I suggest we take stock. We should stop using cars *now*.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 19:24 PM
This input of energy in modern crop-growing is so high, that an american farmer, after accounting for energy, begets three grains of maize for every one he puts in, whereas a mexican slash and burn farmer, gets sixteen grains of corn for each one he puts in the ground. Now imagine a world where high-volume agriculture becomes very dear, because of a dearth of petrol. There are about six billion of us now. Before petrol, the world could sustain about two billion people. Right now, we could feed those six billions, but we don't. The big question is: will we be able to feed ourselves without a petrol enhanced food production process? And if oil won't be available, what will be the 'juice' running the system? ctd.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Darjant, Darjan at Dec 21, 2004 19:20 PM
Add on: Since there are many branches of Homo Sapiens, i am really interested which branch would (or will if you like) win the game. Regards,Darjan.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Darjant, Darjan at Dec 21, 2004 19:14 PM
It is a fact that going from car to bike means to let not just yourself but people on one certain teritory lose their long sought and hard achieved (yes it was hard - we got cancer, pollution, some never even thought of social relationships) living standard (maybe style). It is a fact that water supplies are shrinking and population of Homo Sapiens is increasing. And it is a fact that people are conservative when it comes to bare survival. "Do not change what works for me and it is keeping me alive." This universal principle obviously works not only when Homo Sapiens is endangered and in fear for his being but also when it comes to pleasantness of ones every day life. Yes, there are for-seeing-ones who are in fear for their successors becouse of environmental and loads of other consequences but majority just is not there with them jet. And must say that i doubt ever will be. When trying to produce more material of your own (reproducing, raising family, etc) you are faced with a hard fact again. What means of achieving that goal are sustainable and which are not? Regards, Darjan.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 19:11 PM
Thank you apocalypse for a thoughtful rejoinder. Having researched all I could about the consumption and production of oil (peak oil...) the following becomes clear: Petrol will start running short within our lifetimes, and it will become hard to come by for our children. Look at the way the numbers for world production and consumption developped over the last 100 years and you will see what I mean. Probably, there will be serious local differences in the speed at which oil use fizzels out; as a matter of course, poorer people will be hit earlier - this remains a global characteristic. An important factor is the overwhelming reliance of "modern" agricultural production on petrol. Everything, from ploughing to getting the stuff packaged and in your local supermarket runs on petrol. ctd.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Apocalypse, Unfolding at Dec 21, 2004 11:41 AM
My guess is the ruling class - the corporations and government - greatly prefer option 1. If this happens, they can make more profit without changing too much of our society's structure. I also guess that what's most likely to happen is some combination of 1, 2, and 3. Maybe the lower classes will have less access to personal transportation. Maybe the lower classes will be segregated from the wealthy and live next door to their employers. Who knows? Anyways, these are some interesting issues that are on the horizon, as I see it. And while the direction our future takes probably depends more on the CorpGovtMedia than on our own attempts guide it, I think we need to be ready for this transition. We need to understand it. Perhaps, we need to nudge it carefully into a position that doesn't shatter our progressive aspirations. What do you guys/gals think? I posted these speculations because I wanted to learn other peoples viewpoints on this matter. Obviously, I don't know much on the topic - but I do feel I need to learn more. Indeed, I feel WE ALL need to, because leaving this information and these decisions in the hands of the establishment is what got us here.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Apocalypse, Unfolding at Dec 21, 2004 11:40 AM
Read the article if you haven't. My summary is this: oil consumption is accelerating while oil reserves are dwindling. Something about how we travel will have to change. Consequently, I imagine we will face either: *1) A shift from gasoline to another comparably plentiful, portable, and powerful energy source - including a similar shift in the related energy harnessing technologies (currently we have engines) on our cars, buses, trucks, and airplanes. *2) A dramatic shift in how most people travel; maybe new infrastructure or implementation. A new transportation infrastructure, for the US anyways, might include new bullet train railways connecting many nodes. A new transportation implementation using the old infrastructure could be huge buses - using our current streets and highways - running on schedules and covering all public, and some private areas. *3) A dramatic shift in how or where most people work and live. Maybe we'll all be working and living at home (yeah right!). Or maybe most of us will move next door to the company that'll own us. I can't even speculate on what different living conditions might arise. contd ...

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Apocalypse, Unfolding at Dec 21, 2004 11:38 AM
find this dialogue concerning automobile use amusing. Obviously, more people riding bikes would nicely hurt automobile and oil company profits while producing other beneficial effects for the environment. But how many people would have to start biking to put any real dent in the auto industry? And how many bikers to offset the accelerating ecological decline? Something tells me that not enough people will start biking to make a significant difference. Maybe it's the fact that the US economy and its residential layout are designed around promoting automobile and gasoline use. And most people just follow the design. Untill something drastic happens, anyways. But I think something drastic will happen - to those of us likely to live thirty years longer or more. And I guess the transition period - even if it takes forty years - is likely to surface maybe even in twenty years or so. So it looks like a lot of us are involved. What am I talking about? Well, this is the Znet article: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=11&ItemID=6825 contd ...

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 11:20 AM
What's more, the Bushtards are stomping all over Iraq in view of making oodles of petrol $$. So don't let them make money off oil. Boycott Big Oil. Drive a bike now. Governments have never given anything for free. Those rights we have, we've had to fight for. Public transit is one such thing we have to fight for. Governments are not going to stop global warning. You *can* get started: drive a bike now. Wear a poster on your back, if you like. You won't even have to go to meetings to be a revolutionary: an act of rebellion you can do all on your own: drive a bike:-)

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 10:40 AM
Babies and bath water. Nobody is asking anybody to interdict cars. Just jump on your bike and find out for yourself exactly how much effort is required to get from A to B. If cycling is that hard, just think how much energy a car is throwing away for the same job. Cars are not a god-given right, not something you get at puberty. Humanity has gotten along perfectly well without hem for thousands of years. Even when it was raining, freezing, snowing and worse. Don't forget this: it's a privilege to be cosy in a car, not a right. Giving up such privileges is a good step to a more just society

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 21, 2004 04:28 AM
Now I absoulutely agree that we should cut down on car use and invest on public transit, but let's not throiw the baby out along with the bath water. All technology have drawbacks and are subjected to abuse. But I certainly don't think moving back to the cave is the way to go.The key is to use technology responsibly.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 21, 2004 04:27 AM
I don't know where you guys live, but in most places in North America it is impossible to get around without cars. I live downtown so personally I don't drive, I bike whenever possible, otherwise I take the public transit. But I am not so self righteous to suggest that everyone should bike. What if you live outside down town core? What if you need to commute long distance to work (not uncommon for many people)?What if you're not an athelet? It is -16 degree celcius outside, with the wind it is like -30 degrees. I am not out of my mind to bike on a day like this. You'll need a major updating and expansion of the public transit system to make it a viable alternative to people to need to be on the road a lot. Waiting time, crowding and limited service area and poor scheduling make riding the public transit here in Toronto a major pain. (That's why I bike year round if for no other reason than to avoid taking the public transit, but that is only possible for relatively short distance)

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 21, 2004 04:25 AM
I thought Mr. dawson was indulging in extreme rhetorics for the effect, but it appears that he was serious. I am aware that technology can be abused and many people do drive when they should be walking, biking, or riding the public transit and such irresponsible behaviour do have grave consequences such as pollutions, accidents, etc. But to suggest that the car is nothing but a killing machine is absurd beyond the pale. The car is a useful tool, the fact that you may use a hammer to rob someone or hit yourself over the head doesn't mean that the hammer is intrinsically a harmful product.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Dawson, Michael at Dec 21, 2004 02:48 AM
I agree about the superiority of the bicycle, which has to rank as one of humankind's greatest inventions. I worry, however, that simply calling on people to abandon cars for bikes is a recipe for failure. Unless we can politicize the issue of infrastructural funding, how can we expect people to challenge the dominance of cars? It's too difficult and dangerous for most people, especially those with kids. Getting rid of cars will take a social movement confronting our overclass, and specifically demanding the reconstruction of our cities and transportation facilities. Bikes and trains should receive the century of lavish treatment that cars have enjoyed. Indeed, to my eye, I see no other way of rescuing ourselves from impending unprecedented ecological and/or military disasters. I still don't understand bwong's analogy to having children. Is he trying to say that our cars-first system is inevitable? I'm writing a book about this topic, so I don't want to miss a potentially crucial point...

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Dec 21, 2004 01:45 AM
Just food for thought, but companies engage consultants to forecast the likey rate of injury from their products. They also forecast the like rate of lawsuits, called Claims Forecasting. Numbers such as the rate at which people are likely to die before having a chance to file a lawsuit are also calculated. That's called "having scienter" in legalese, meaning "having knowledge of"...

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 01:34 AM
For those of you in despair about what to do about the state of the world, there is an easy step you can take. Sell your car, scrap the insurance, stop paying roadtax, stop burning fuel. If you can handle it, drive a bicycle, you'll feel healthier almost immediately. Half an hour to work, and you'll never worry about eating too much anymore. Driving a bike amongst cars requires simple physical courage, making you feel strong facing the ferocious poisonfarting machines. Bicycles are an instrument for the revolution.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 01:18 AM
Boycott Big Oil, I say, they are the ones hoping to make $$ out of the current series of debâcles in the middle east. Boycott Big oil, get out of your car, stop burning the black. I'm serious about this. If we all decide to use bicycles and public transport and skateboards and rollerskates to get around town, we'd be hurting mostly the right people, and we'd be doing the planet a favor. Boycott Big Oil, stop the war and see your townscape transformed!

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 21, 2004 01:05 AM
I must concur with Michael Dawson. Cars pollute terribly. Local radio announced this morning that cyclists had better not go downtown because of high levels of pollution. Have we gone mad? Is it 'ok' that three quarters of public space is privatized by people in stinking gasguzzlers? And what will our children use for energy, when most of the oil is gone and what's left costs a fortune? Getting around in cars is a stupid idea these days. Getting on your bike however, is a radical move.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Dawson, Michael at Dec 21, 2004 00:46 AM
How is manufacturing and selling a deadly product for profit the same as raising a child? I don't get your analogy. Please explain it.

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 20, 2004 23:43 PM
Automobile's a bad example. It's like saying every mother commits murder because she knows the baby she gave birth to will die someday. Try again (Hint:like gun manufacturers).

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Re: Bakunin, the death penalty & seeds of the future

By Dawson, Michael at Dec 20, 2004 23:26 PM
I would go so far as to call it "corporate murder" in some cases. Don't the automobile pushers know full well that their products are bound to kill tens of thousands every year, and seriously maim many more? And that's corporate capitalism's #1 industry, something it probably couldn't remain hegemonic without...

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