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Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Brian Dominick at Mar 26, 2005

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After following some of the very heated "threads" of comments on Lucinda Marshall's recent posts have prompted me to write this special post about the use of weblog comments. To date, I have already warned two users to cease using what I perceived to be abusive language, and I have deleted one comment posting, which was explicitly abusive. I also recently banned a user who was abusively harassing fellow blogger Paul Street. I am not sure if people noticed, but when I designed the comment system, I intentionally made it not-so-conducive to dialog. ZNet has provided also provides an excellent, elaborate forums system. We are regularly told it is by far the best on the radical left. Thoughtfulness, civility and extremely challenging debate are its hallmarks, and it has been that way for more than 11 years now. People who want to engage in civil debates would do well to become ZNet Sustainers (if you aren't already) at a comfortable monthly rate to help support the extremely expensive resources we're all using so regularly, and then have at it in a the moderated format of the ZNet Forums. Besides, the forums are technologicially FAR more conducive to discussion than any blog comments system I've ever seen -- especially this one. Just to be clear, there is a lot of "borderline" activity in recent weblog comments, especially on the topics of gender/sexism/feminism and pornography. I am evaluating comments to make sure ideas are protected so long as they are not presented in an abusive fashion. But I can say right now that I know for a fact some women do not feel comfortable posting their ideas in the comments area because they are afraid they will be personally (verbally) attacked in a vicious manner. I cannot say I blame them, even though so far I don't think there has been a concerted attack, that I have seen. This is a final warning for anyone using intimidation in the blog comments area. I will not hesitate to delete comments and possibly ban users if abusive or threatening postures are taken in comments. A lot of people work very hard to keep ZNet going, and we don't do it so that just anybody can come along and use our facilities as a forum for oppressive ideas. And while it is sometimes healthy to let people make total idiots of themselves in order to get bad ideas into the open and then decimate those ideas with tactful argument, if the presentation of dissenting opinions is done in a manner that intimidates others, then in the interest of open speech, those doing the intimidating lose their prerogative to make use of our facilities.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Real, Julian at Aug 12, 2005 02:20 AM
Hi Brian. I tried emailing you, but got an instant email back letting me know there were problems with its delivery. Could you send me an email address where I can ask you about a few things, re: blogging. Thanks. Julian Real

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By J, Big at Mar 29, 2005 03:13 AM
ouch i didn't realize that your comment got erased if you skipped pages- lesson learned. Well, I suppose the zstaff can do as they please but lets not do anything rash here. I and many others feel that the bloggers opinions were not based in sound facts or reasoning, and so chose to express ourselves in an intelligent, civilized manner by debating with the purveyors of said opinions. how can this be construed as a personal attack? Why is calling these dissenters misogynists and potential rapists acceptale? Who appointed them as the unquestionable voices of an entire movement? Mr. Dominick I beseech you- do not stamp out informed dissent and discourse- it is the lifeblood of any movement. If we are not asked to defend our ideas from critique they will stagnate and die. The criticisms you would so easily dismiss were for the most part very well thought out and formulated by some very intelligent people. These people deserve better than to be slandered as misogynists and have their ideas summarily dismissed because of their gender rather than their logic.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Shannon, James at Mar 28, 2005 20:53 PM
People do what they do "because they can". You name the issue and you have the answer. Pornography - Abortion - Rape - Murder - Incest - Adultery - Terry Shiavo - Medical Fraud by overpromising - Malpractice - Medical Fraud by the FDA / Drug companies. Theft by Government - Judicial Fraud - The Fraud behind Tort Reform Fraud and Congress - Corporate Fraud - Theft by Insurance - Investment Fraud - Wall Streets Ponzi scheme - Insurance Companies systemic Bad Faith Scheme - Tax Evasion - Stock Manipulation - Theft of Promised Pensions - Public Fraud of the underfunded Social Security and MediCare programs - Tax Cuts for the Wealthy who don't pay taxes - Cost shifting by insurance companies and pension funds to the Government - Accounting Fraud -Cost shifting to society by individuals too stupid or violant or lazy to work for their bread. Simple fact is if you took all the "Bullshit" out of America there would be nothing left. We live in a society that is "Organized Crime" top to bottom.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Shannon, James at Mar 28, 2005 19:10 PM
Oncorhynchus Rastrosus - Bravo. Occasionally some one pipes in with a truly intelligent insight. Most are here to simply show the rest of us how good they are at "MasterDebating" - especially and including Chomsky & Street & Dominick & Marshall & & & &, with their self-righteous arrogant issue focused manipulation. A wise friend once told me something about advice that I will never forget. "A smart guy doesn't need it and a dumb guy won't heed it." Things are as they are because all are human and 99.99999999% of all humans are the center of the universe.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 28, 2005 17:48 PM
Strike that last comment, I have not had my coffee yet (over commersialized addictive worker oppressive vice that it is). I shouldn't have brought up specifics, I have just felt a little attacked lately here. Maybe for good reason. I will attempt to control my emotions more, but wouldn't that be a patriachical thing to do?

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 28, 2005 17:37 PM
Marcus, since we are airing our feelings here about fellow blogers, can you please explain to me how your comment bellow is not exactly what you are saying we should not be doing? Comment by marcus denton posted on Tuesday, March 22 at 07:47 PM MTbrad, have you ever talked to a woman? Ever put yourself in a woman's shoes, tried to understand her experience? It's hard to see how you could do this, be empathetic, and still deny gender has no affect on fears, or anything for that matter (I suspect for you this would just be the beginning).

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 28, 2005 17:27 PM
Her newest entry is sooo over the top, were she is attempting to equate discussion of and desent from her oppinions with spousal abuse. This is not only completely irrational, it is a dismissal of the true suffering of the women(and men) who have suffered through this terrible social affliction.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 28, 2005 17:24 PM
"She was saying the opposite: that people making patriarchal arguments put up standards for her to meet to be a feminist" And then she did the same thing regardinng feminism in her "12 step program" entry.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 28, 2005 10:10 AM
"She was saying the opposite: that people making patriarchal arguments put up standards for her to meet to be a feminist" What kind of standrad do you have in mind? That being able to make an argument which can be judged on its own merit(without regard to the gender or race of the poster)? I don't think we demand any more from Lucinda than other participants in these blogs. It is not the question whether you agree with the points made. It is the goal of feminists that women be treated equally. Why should there be any exception in rational discussions? Your attitude is not only patronizing to the men here, it is also offensive to all women who are able to debate/discuss rationally and logically without having to play the gender card at every turn.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 28, 2005 09:51 AM
"At its base, I think this is a case of "nothing hurts like the truth." People are feeling threatened and attacked, especially because the frame of mind which would make them feel that way is the one being critiqued at its most fundamental level. The responses to such an "attack" are what we've seen." You describe Lucinda's behaviour quite perfectly. It is find to have a "matriachal" perspective. But I would hope that even in such an alledgely unfamiliar framework arguments still needs to be back up with facts and arguments, other than simply declaring "I say so because I am a woman and you're not". Indeed we have no hint what the "matriachal" perspective is other what Lucinda declares to be the truth. I happen to think that rationality and logic has no gender. That should be self evident unless you subscribe to the sexist, "irrational female" stereotype. Quite frankly I find marcus Denton's attitude patronizing.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Rastrosus, Oncorhynchus at Mar 28, 2005 07:58 AM
Talk about forms of “power-over.” Marshall's blogs have addressed the lowly readers from a perspective of POWER-OVER EVERYTHING. Toss a stone into a pond, and it causes ripples. Surprised? And yet ZNet's administrators wonder why so many of its readers have reacted as if they're being jerked around. From its first day onward, the whole approach of Marshall's blog has been like that of the man or woman lamented by Paulo Freire, “who proclaims devotion to the cause of liberation yet is unable to enter into COMMUNION with the people, whom he or she continues to regard as totally ignorant.” GRIEVIOUSLY SELF-DECEIVED. The ZNet Blogs will continue to descend to whichever level Lucinda Marshall and her partners manage to take them. (How's this for an inspiring possibility, drawn from Marshall's March 27 blog(?): “I have absolutely no objection to graphically or verbally explicit discussion of human sexuality. I do object to it when it is racist, sexist, homophobic, or exploitive in any manner. While I am opposed to censorship, as Mary Kay Blakely pointed out years ago in ‘Red, White and Oh So Blue', sometimes there just aren't 2 sides to an issue and there is no obligation to give print space, air space, etc. to that which causes harm.”) My only question, in closing, is this: Why would ZNet promote work as fundamentally contemptuous towards its readers as Lucinda Marshall's?

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Rastrosus, Oncorhynchus at Mar 28, 2005 07:56 AM
Perhaps we can best see Marshall's method (or, rather, her scheme) at work in the following passage from her “Additional thoughts about your comments” (March 20): “The key point here is matriarchal thinking is a different construct than partriarchal thinking. Patriarchy is based on the concept of power-over, matriarchy tends to value power from within and power from connection.” With passages such as this, readers of ZNet are instructed that there is Good Thinking and Bad Thinking: Namely, Lucinda Marshall Thinking and Readers of ZNet Thinking. This simple dichotomy has played three roles throughout Marshall's seven blogs to date: The role of her thesis, the role of her supporting evidence, and the role of her conclusion. It must be nice to inhabit an intellectual universe in which one gets to define the nature of the problem (“patriarchal thinking” versus “matriarchal thinking”), to adduce the evidence that proves it is the problem (“patriarchal thinking” versus “matriarchal thinking”), and to reach conclusions about the nature of the problem based on this evidence (“patriarchal thinking” versus “matriarchal thinking”).

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Rastrosus, Oncorhynchus at Mar 28, 2005 07:55 AM
The remainder of this particular blog presented readers with one straw man after another: From the “hallelujah chorus of men's voices from the patriarchal left” on. Nor has any of this changed with Marshall's latest blog, “The abusive justification of porn/changing the paradigm” (March 27), and its four “definitions” of the “types of verbal abuse that have been used in the comments to this blog to justify pornography.” (The last two in particular are egregious examples of the straw man at work. But I will leave it up to readers to check these out on their own.)

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Rastrosus, Oncorhynchus at Mar 28, 2005 07:54 AM
In “The 12-step program for discussing feminism and misogyny” (March 22), Marshall opened: “There seems to be something of a 12-step program that one has to go through before being allowed to legitimately discuss such topics as feminism, misogyny or violence against women.” This assumption of enlightenment and expertise on Marshall's part (that no one but Marshall can legitimately discuss the kinds of topics that she is raising in her blog) is condescending and dismissive of ZNet's readers (no “partnership thinking” with Marshall, evidently). Moreover, as it asserts Marshall's superiority over ZNet's readers, its whole premise is fundamentally abusive towards others--it is the readers who need to undergo “something of a 12-step program” before they can “legitimately” engage with Marshall on any subject of her choosing.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Rastrosus, Oncorhynchus at Mar 28, 2005 07:53 AM
In the week since Lucinda Marshall introduced her new blog at ZNet (“Violence Against Women,” March 18), Marshall has posted a total of seven blogs. In the six of these that appeared prior to Dominick's March 26 intervention, Marshall repeated one fundamental message, over and over again: I, Lucinda Marshall, am an expert at these topics. You, readers, are not. Therefore, I do not respect your views. As a matter of fact, I hold them in contempt.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Rastrosus, Oncorhynchus at Mar 28, 2005 07:52 AM
The “special post” by Brian Dominick (“Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums,” March 26) is deeply troubling in two respects. Less important, I think, is the fact that Dominick has red-flagged (though without citing any concrete examples) what he variously describes as “'borderline' activity,” “intimidation,” “abusive or threatening” posts, and so on, “especially,” as he reports it, “on the topics of gender/sexism/feminism and pornography.” The second, more grave, respect is that Dominick's intervention is directed solely against the visitors to the ZNet Blogs, and to posts by its visitors in the Comments section. But Dominick never says a single word about the conduct of ZNet's bloggers themselves.

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By Jautter, Mind at Mar 27, 2005 06:52 AM
Good subject to bring up.I wonder how many people besides myself did a quick look in the mirror?

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 27, 2005 04:05 AM
I am going to reprint my previous question; An interesting point was brought up in regards to the Ward Churchill incident, if it was a nazi or white supremicist that was being assulted for his writing and teaching would the left stand up for their free speack rights? Our society is based on a freedom of speech and leftists love to beat up on rightwingers when it comes to the supression of free speech, would we apply the same reasoning to speech we dislike? Like porn for instance.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 27, 2005 00:05 AM
Hesed was the person I was refering to, but after looking back it appears as if you two have made contact regarding the issue.

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 26, 2005 21:04 PM
"But I can say right now that I know for a fact some women do not feel comfortable posting their ideas in the comments area because they are afraid they will be personally (verbally) attacked in a vicious manner." And some men, there has been at least on poster who said he would no longer post because of the personal attacks aimed at him. This is a really good topic for leftests, just because you disagree with a point of view does not mean that we should seek to personally attacking that person. This is what the fascist right is doing, eg. Ward Churchill. An interesting point was brought up in regards to the WC incident, if it was a nazi or white supremicist that was being assulted for his writing and teaching would the left stand up for their free speack rights?

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Re: Blog Comments vs. Discussion Forums

By Lackey, Word at Mar 26, 2005 21:02 PM
Thank you. I think you're taking appropriate steps. I know it can sometimes be, um, difficult to draw the line between fervent argument and abusive vitriol. I don't envy you.

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