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Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Noam Chomsky at Dec 06, 2004

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First, nothing remotely like capitalism exists. Is the US economy, relying crucially on the dynamic state sector, a capitalist economy? But putting that aside, was it an argument in the 18th century to say that feudalism, absolutism, rule by Kings, slavery,.... are the only viable systems because they are the only ones still functioning? Or in the 1960s to say that women can't be granted elementary rights because such rights aren't granted in any viable system? Or that freedom of speech must be blocked by state power for the same reason? This is beyond absurdity. Is "capitalism" supposed to be something like the system in the US?  Or Japan?  Or...? If not, we are proceeding in outer space.  If so, then it is unfair to say that the claims are unargued: they appear to be instantly refuted even by the most superficial examination.  Has great science, art, music, etc., been produced by people working for money? Is that what was driving Einstein when he was working on relativity theory in the Swiss patent office, or later at the Institute for Advanced Study?  Or artists struggling for years on crusts of bread in garrets?  Or artisans throughout history, and today, trying to create objects of beauty and perfection? Or parents devoting time and energy to raise their children properly (creating "human capital," in the terminology of economists, a major factor in economic growth)?  Or in fact just about anything worthwhile or constructive?   The unargued claims...are apparently being put forth by people who do have not had even the slightest experience, direct or indirect, with creative work, now and in the past -- and by "creative" I do not mean only the peaks of human creativity, but the lives of most decent people who are not utterly pathological. Suppose that there is some miraculous difference between scientists, artists, artisans, parents, etc., and those seeking to produce marketable goods -- a near-lunatic assumption, but let's adopt it for the sake of argument.  So take the core of the fabled "new economy," for example, what you and I are now using: computers and the internet. How were these developed?  Answer, pretty much like most of science, the arts, crafts, etc.  All produced in labs, often for decades, mostly within the dynamic state sector of the economy, with essentially no consumer choice or entrepreneurial initiative.  Unless you count the "entrepreneurial initiative" of IBM executives who realized that they could use public resources, like the MIT Whirlwind and Harvard Mark series of computers in the 1950s and the work going on in the labs, to learn how to switch from punched cards to electronic-based computing, or their "entrepreneurial initiative" in relying on government procurement (that is, unwitting public subsidy) to develop more advanced computers in the 1960s, or the initiative of AT&T to rely 100% on government for procurement of high quality transistors ten years after they were invented (largely using government-produced technology, and within a great lab that AT&T, theoretically private, was able to maintain at public expense by charging monopoly prices, thanks to government protection), and so on.  I happened to be in the electronics lab where a lot of this was going on at the time, but even the most casual acquaintance with the history of technology, hence the source of the modern economy, reveals that this is completely standard: people working very hard, all hours of the night, because they find their work fascinating and are passionately interested in finding out the answers to hard questions, just as artists labor often in penury to satisfy their inner creative needs, parents devote enormous efforts to "producing human capital" (in the familiar ugly terminology), etc. Most of human life, in fact, for anyone who has taken the trouble to observe or participate in the world. One might add that these were also the standard assumptions of the founders of classical liberalism -- the conceptions that those who you are arguing with are supposed to revere: von Humboldt, for example, who took it to be obvious that people are born to "inquire and create," and it is an infringement on their fundamental nature to deprive them of this right -- and further, that if an artisan produces a beautiful object on command, we may admire what he does but despise what he is, because he is not a free creative person acting from inner creative need, but a tool of production controlled externally. Let's...keep to Adam Smith, a very important figure.  He was pre-capitalist in his conceptions, and often quite interesting.  For example, his basic argument for his rather nuanced views about markets: that under conditions of liberty they would lead to equality, an obvious desideratum.  Or his one use of the term "invisible hand" in "Wealth of Nations," in an argument for what economic historians call "home bias," in effect an argument against what is now called "neoliberalism" or "neoclassical economics." Smith argued that the English economy, what he cared about, would be wrecked if British capitalists were to invest abroad and import from abroad, but it would not be a problem, because "home bias" would lead them to invest at home and use domestically-produced goods, and therefore, by an "invisible hand," Britain would be saved from the ravages of international markets.  Or his argument against division of labor, and insistence that in any civilized society, governments would intervene to constrain it, because it would turn working people into creatures as stupid and ignorant as a human creature can be -- essentially on von Humboldt's assumptions. Yes, Smith is very much worth reading, whether one agrees with his interesting work or not.  Reading, not worshipping on the basis of concocted mythology.

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Person

Very well said.

By Kissenger, Clark at Feb 20, 2006 00:38 AM

Very well said.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Sridharmahadevan, Sakreha at Jan 17, 2005 05:12 AM
The problem is not captalism or communism or any ism. 1. The Greatest Villain of all time is ‘Darwins's Survival Game' (DSG). 2. The Villain's sidekick ‘The Human Mind'. The rules of the game at present DSG are “I survive and I survive”. Can we modify it to “All survive or Nobody does”. Assume there is a comet which is stationed outside earth, monitoring the denizens and checking if everyone is happy. If some one is unhappy, the Comet collides with the earth and kills everyone. But then everyone will live in fear and not happiness. Better Idea would be to modify the Side Kick. The core problem of the side kick is its desire and its amplified form ‘Greed and Gluttony' This is my solution. Genetically modify each human so that all offsprings will have no greed and gluttony. This is a task for science. The task of “Mass Benevolentization”. Now this will make humans genetically unable to compete and hence they can't take part in any game, and more importantly in Darwin's Survival Game.!! For more details please read http://fundgence.blogspot.com/2005/01/human-life-35-30-off-walmart.html

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Bash at Jan 13, 2005 15:06 PM
I said "Corporations can't be reformed within the system we live under." You continue to say "Today the corporations own us. They own the government and the media." Then at the same time "This can be done by,what is becoming,an enraged populace if they are led by honest people like Ralph Nader--and without revolution." Listing dictators who I obviously don't support does not contribute to your argument. To have an argument you have to say HOW this would happen when (as you admit) Corporations are so powerful.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Bash at Jan 12, 2005 20:15 PM
"[Your agruments] are devious legal maneuvers to protect your client--the corporations." As my arguments are that Corporations can't be reformed within the system we live under it's absurd to suggest they are my clients, and means you're avoiding the real debate. I certainly haven't received the cheque. "you believe anyone doing honest work is somehow part of the problem." Just as slave who worked honestly for their masters were part of that problem. "you believe that anarchists and communists can eat without someone doing the plowing. " Corporate heads don't tend to do a lot of plowing. More often they tell the guy plowing they own his land. We can eat, and better, without them. Your dictionary quote just shows how mainstream thought tries to 'normalise' capitalism.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Bash at Jan 06, 2005 15:16 PM
"P.S. Darwin's theory was put into practice by the science of biochemistry. " No Darwin's theory was based on scientific observation. He wasn't proposing evolution, he was describing it. I feel you're making rash and scattershot comments rather than actually debating. When they're shot down you just make another one.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Bash at Jan 06, 2005 15:13 PM
"Businesses that are owned, like your local plumbing contractor, are not imperialists." Neither are muggers or burglars imperialists. Imperialism = exoloitation + distance. "You remind me of my four year old grandchild. He told me today: "You can do anything you want to"." Presumably because I look like him, as I never said anything like this. "Please tell me any economy that can exist without buying and selling." This is no less a tautology for being repeated. Please tell me any sea that doesn't have water. Economy means buying and selling. "Communism was supressed by its own people." If you mean Stalinism it survived exactly by supressing it's own people. "Anarchism failed to even get started." ???? "Corporations can only lose their immortality by being outlawed." "Governments don't get rid of corporations because the corporations own the government." These contradict each other. Only one can be true. It's the second one.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Bash at Jan 05, 2005 18:47 PM
"How do you get the Tutsi's in Ruanda to stop their genocide? Commitment, philosophy, or revolution?" Can you really not see the role of Western imperialism in Africa in the Rwandan genocides? (Or, for that matter, the war in the Congo going on right now?)

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Bash at Jan 05, 2005 18:42 PM
"Corporations are immortal because they are not human." You're confusing immortal with inorganic. There's an obvious difference between not human and more than human. If humans can destroy the ozone layer (presumably "immortal" by your definition) they can get rid of corporations. "Ideology is merely theory put into practice." No, activity is theory put into practice. Ideology is theory put into dogma. "Both the Anarchists and the Communists tried this and it failed." Wouldn't suppressed be more the term here? "The idea of living without govenment is like children living without a parent." I was their child but now I live without my parents. "Buying and selling is neccesary to any economy..." Tautology. "...and government is neccesary in order to keep this activity honest." Like they did over Bhopal?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Bash at Jan 04, 2005 18:10 PM
The weakness of all this "anti-corporate" thinking is that it assumes capitalism is something to do with SCALE, rather than being a form of social relation. It's as if anti-slavery campaigners of old had defined slavery as owning more than 20-odd slaves, and had seen having 18 or 19 slaves about the place as something perfectly normal and unproblematic. Slavery was about owning other people. Capitalism is about buying and selling. Pervaricating and hedging your bets will not change this very much.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Bash at Jan 04, 2005 17:59 PM
If John St. John is going to describe looking at what writers actually said as an "intellectual trap" then I guess I'm in favour of intellectual traps. "Both Marx and Kropotkin were ideologues." No they were theorists. To prove them wrong you have to find holes in their theories, not just name-call. "Anarchy means no government. Communism means no government. In order for both systems to work we would all have to become angels." Isn't it more absurd to suggest that a power and money system could ever be run for the greater good, because the people with the power and the money would have to become like angels. "One can not put a corporation in front of a firing squad or haul one to the guillotine. You can't even put a corporation in jail--they are immortal." This is just specious! You can't do those things to a sunset either - that doesn't mean sunsets are immortal.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Bash at Dec 31, 2004 14:38 PM
John H. St.John posted on Thursday, December 09 at 07:10 PM: “Kropotkin glorifies the individual… The trouble with this thinking is that humans survived as social animals. It is like saying, let every bee look out for himself.” This is even more absurd! If you can't be bothered to read Kropotkin's books you could at least read the titles! His most famous work is called Mutual Aid. He proposed the very opposite of what you're accusing him of. Debate can be good. Informed debate is normally better.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Bash at Dec 31, 2004 14:37 PM
Apologies for writing to old postings but I got here late! The Sweish Vicarage (posted on Monday, December 06 at 12:04 PM – the very first post!) says “Marx was impatient, he tried in a normative way to invent a economical system, sitting with his pen and paper in the British Museum in London. It did not work. Capitalism works.” This is of course an absurd parody. One of Marx's most famous dictums was “history is the history of class struggle”. Marx saw history in terms of changes in the means of production, challenging the notion it was made by elevated individuals with big ideas. This is probably his chief insight into the process of history. He saw communism as a historical tendency that is already underway.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Rbussell, Roley at Dec 25, 2004 23:23 PM
I think that when Chomsky mentioned AT&T as benefitting from state subsidy, he is really putting forward the idea that the economy is not just private businesses doint the hard work. The State sector (State and Federal Budgets) is very important in modern technological society. Also, modern economic thought does not value labour on how long it takes to produce something. Labour is firstly paid enough to induce them to work. Without government regulation and if poor people are everywhere, there may not be any need to compensate workers for the disutility of work, because they are forced to work to survive. Take slaves as example, only in last 100-150 years or whatever has direct slave ownership gone out of fashion in the Western World. And servants...? Servants on minimal wages are still employed everywhere in the world. People have had to struggle to win adequate pay, workplace conditions and universal rights. The market economy didnt just magically do it...the invisible hand didnt do it, people had win these through negotiation, protest and struggle. Roley

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 21, 2004 02:52 AM
John, How do we remove corporations, practically? They have an awful lot of money and influence and they control most of the channels of information to the public. It is my understanding that coorporations evolved to do things that nobody wanted to do alone.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 21, 2004 00:22 AM
It's quite simple. No one is smart enough to truely understand the "greater good". anyone who claims to know what is best for humanity is either insane, a liar, or too damn stupid to know the limits of his own knowledge. Nobody is in any position to tell anyone else what is best for the humanity, nature, or the world. We are ALL equally qualified to judge, from the factory worker to the capitalist to the scientific "experts". Consequently, we should all be allowed, within certain limits, to do whatever the hell we personally think is best for the world without some know-it-all telling us what is right or wrong.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 21, 2004 00:21 AM
"This is the fundamental fact on which the whole philosophy of individualism is based. It does NOT assume, as if often asserted, tha man is egoistic or selfish or ought to be. It merely starts from the indisputable fact that the limits of powers of imaginations [and knowledge] make it IMPOSSIBLE to include in our scale of values more than a sector of the needs of the whole society, and that, since, strictly speaking, scales of values can exist only in individual minds, nothing but partial scales of vlaues exist - scales which are often different and often inconsistent with each other, From this the individualist concludes that the individuals should be allowed, within defined limits, to follow their own values and preferences and not sombosy elses". Hayek - "The Road to Serfdom"

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 21, 2004 00:10 AM
"What are the defining features of capitalism?" For me the major defining feature of capitalism is a certain basic regard for private property, regardless of race, class, ethnicity, and a basic respect for letting people pursue their OWN economic interests.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 20, 2004 23:58 PM
"There will never be "high enough" level of production under the current system, not because of ever increasing needs and demands. Needs and demands have to be artifically created even if they are not there in order to feed the beast,-the"economy",-or it will collapse." What do you mean by "artifically created"? Desire for more and better things is the human condition. It is the natural reflection of our desire for permanence in an impermanent and ever-changing world. Buddha figured this out 2500 years ago. It takes discipline and patience to learn to control desires and to be happy with what you have instead of wanting more and more. Humans are not naturally born content.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 20, 2004 23:53 PM
"The planet would not last much longer if we keep up the current rate of production, let alone exceeding it." Maybe. What is certain is that a lot of people will not voluntarily switch to a system that decreases their standard of living. People are short sighted, which is why most people will not voluntarily accept a change unless that changes benefits them in immediately obvious ways.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 20, 2004 23:36 PM
Well I think we need to first agree on what "Capitalism" is before we can carry out further discussions. There are many economies which called themselves "capitlalist" yet have very different ethos. Are we talking about North American style Capitalism? Japanese style capitlaism which functions like a planned economy in many regards, and at least until about ten years ago, big corporations took on a role almost similar to the welfare state for the employees; or, are we talking about military backed jack boot capitalism in some South American countries; or kinship based, "petty capitalism" which flourished in China for many centries and is now making a come back? I am not sure if we can reduce a very complex, real syetm, like the U.S econmy with a blanket characterization such as "capitalist" A real economy is a living, complex entity with its own history and ecology.( I am as guilty as everyone elese iin using these terms very loosely) What are the defining features of capitalism? In what way are these features responsible to the concerete social realities we object to? We must answer these questions first.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 20, 2004 15:19 PM
The US system is a success in that there is a large professional class, many small business owners, a large middle class, and a working class that can afford many things formerly considered luxuries. It is a mixed economy, not capitalism. The US does not survive primarily by preying on weaker nations. The poverty and misery in Eastern Europe, Africa, etc., are not the result of US exploitation.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 20, 2004 07:15 AM
To say that "capitalism" in its current form is a "success" is like going to a country like India to live in the most upscale neighbourhood, hanging out with only the top 10% of the most well to do people who drink fine imoported wine, drive nice cars and eat cavier,while ignoring all the slums and starving people just because they are hidden from view, and then conclude that the syetem is an unprecedent succcess.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 20, 2004 07:08 AM
For those who think that our current irresponsible system represent the highest form of human achievement which should be adopted worldiwde, I suggest you to read Ronald Wright's book "a short history of progress". It was delivered as 2004's Massey lecture in Canada. The book's main theme is that the human animal is very clever, but remarkably short sighted. The book gave ample and fascinating examples of how civilizations before us inevitably destroyed themselves due to unimaginable foolishness(that is, in hind sight) just when they thought they reached the pinnicle of human achievements. Moreover, each time the ante was up when the collapse inevitably reccured. He then chillingly pointed out the tell tale signs of self destructions and self dillusions is unmistakenly written all over our wall right now. You may not agree with him, but all thinking people should give serious considerations to his arguments.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 20, 2004 06:56 AM
Therefore, unless we begin to adress the structural issues and come up with more inovative ways of organizing production, distrubution and consumption(ie, the "economy")we are faced with the horrible choice: either over run all the resources and destroy all planet, or, face economical ruins(for the majority of working people anyhow)

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 20, 2004 06:55 AM
"Why on earth would you want to re-create the great depression? " Read the whole post. My point is that the current system is unstainable because of its intrinsic dynamics, not because of subjective mind states like "greed" and so on, which are human attributes, not that of an economical system. There will never be "high enough" level of production under the current system, not because of ever increasing needs and demands. Needs and demands have to be artifically created even if they are not there in order to feed the beast,-the"economy",-or it will collapse.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 20, 2004 06:45 AM
"Just becauase you move slowly doesn't mean you can re-invent humanity" Who says I want to "reinvent" humanity? I think we are going to get into a debate about human nature...

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 20, 2004 06:40 AM
"Any viable alternative to capitalism MUST be able to equal or exceed the productionn of capitalism or else it will never be adopted." Why? The planet would not last much longer if we keep up the current rate of production, let alone exceeding it.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 20, 2004 06:21 AM
"If everyone conserves and cuts back on consumptions drastically we would be in a recession so steep that it makes the 30's look like child's play." Why on earth would you want to re-create the great depression?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 20, 2004 06:18 AM
"I believe in gradual, evolutionary changes through fostering an enviroment that encourages good behaviours. It's like evolutionary theory in biology. You creaat the enviroment that "selects" certain variations or strains in a species. Revolution would be like full brown gentical engineering. You don't know where it will lead" There still is the issue of how far you can go. Just becauase you move slowly doesn't mean you can re-invent humanity. Slow is better than fast, but you still need realistic goals.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 20, 2004 06:11 AM
"the vast array of deep, pervasive, extremely destructive, indeed perhaps terminal problems our current system suffers " I can't say I really agree with you. The current system may need tweaking, but I don't think any dramatically different system is even capable of solving "our problems". Any viable alternative to capitalism MUST be able to equal or exceed the productionn of capitalism or else it will never be adopted. And it must be able to do this even in the face of active opposition from capitalists who are trying to undermine it. After all, capitalism thrives despite the presence of it's opponents, so any system claiming to be stronger must be able to do the same. Complain about the system all you want, but who can beat it?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 20, 2004 06:05 AM
Revolutions, like wars (I mean war in your homeland, not sending your troops abroad), is something that is forced upon a desperate people when there is no other option . It is not something that the people freely choose or should wish for. I believe in gradual, evolutionary changes through fostering an enviroment that encourages good behaviours. It's like evolutionary theory in biology. You creaat the enviroment that "selects" certain variations or strains in a species. Revolution would be like full brown gentical engineering. You don't know where it will lead.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 20, 2004 06:03 AM
But who says that I want a revolution? "Revolution" is the lazy man's way out because you know it will probably never happen in our life time(I am 33)unless WWIII reduces civilization to rubbles and usher in the age of mad max.Well, I don't want that. Moreover, revolution is too drastic, it throws the baby out along with the bath water and you'll have to re invent all the institutions from the ground up. That means you'll have to go through all the trial and errors, all the false starts and dead ends, etc. without the benefits of fine tunings accumulated by centries of social evolutions

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 19, 2004 21:56 PM
"Capitalism" doesn't mean "economy"" Of course I know. I use the word to mean "our present capitalist economy", which is quite a mouthful.I think this usage is taken for granted in most non technical publications(newspaper, magazines etc)

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 19, 2004 21:35 PM
"Capitalism", at least in its present form, is not sustainable. I don't like to use human adjectives like "greed" to describe a system which is basically a self running machine. Fact is, capitalism has to be fed on consumption and waste. Economics text books say "the economy" exists to satisfy humann desires. Reality is the other way around, desires and greed has to be delibrately stroked and stimulated to feed "the economy".If everyone conserves and cuts back on consumptions drastically we would be in a recession so steep that it makes the 30's look like child's play.Without waste and grotesque consumption the "economy" would die just like an organism would die of starvation. I think we have to look at this structural problem. Everything else is just distraction.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 19, 2004 21:35 PM
I think overpopulation as a problem may be overstated. It is not the multitude of the third world who are depleting most of the world's resources and create most of the waste. The U.S has only 5 % of the world's population(with dwindling birth rate) but generates 25% of the total green house gas output. About 20% of the world's population(in the developed world) consume 80% of the world's resources.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 19, 2004 08:25 AM
"The primitive communism of the hunting and gathering tribe ended with the invention of agriculture. We were forced to become individuals in the larger society.." I don't see anything wrong with being individuals. There is a difference between "individualism" and selfishness. It often takes courage and convictions to swim against the tide. I for one don't want to live like a "borg" drone. Instead of saying we are "forced" to become indidiviuals I would rather think that argriculture began the liberation of the idividuals. On the other hand, "collectivism" was forced upon ancient hunter gatherer society because of extreme scarcity.I don't think the lives of cavemen was as rosy as some of us imagine.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 18, 2004 23:09 PM
The landless peasants were than driven to newly emergered urban slums,which were unheard of before. The same pattern is still being played out in the developed world. When we look at the obscenity and cruty in emerging Capitalist paradises like the Philipines and Brazil,we are merely looking into history. Finally, after a few centries of fine tuning and reforms, a relatively decent system emerge in a handful of developed nations(which continue to brutalize the rest of the world) and this you call the miracle of capitalism? Moreover, most of these reforms that make these countries more humane did not "unfold" naturally from the logic of capitalism. They are by an large forced upon the states by the people who finally said enough is enough.The "system" fought every reform with brutality and violence.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 18, 2004 23:08 PM
Aside from the U.S, for several centries the engine of "Capitalism" has been fueled by bloody and brutal colonial conquests as well as violent suppression and exploitation of the domestic lower class. "Communism", by the way, began as moral indignations not very much different from Dickens' Apologists for "Capitalism" present themselves as defenders of "private property". Ironically, mordern Capitalism began with the systematic expulsion of peasants from their land by a parliament fiat ("encirclement" movement in England)The land wasland given to the textile overlords to raise sheep(for the wool).

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 18, 2004 23:00 PM
From this very localized, ahistorical view, notions such as "capitalism" and "comunism" becomes static, caricatures devoid of context and history. I find it comical that someone would use the United States as a model of Capitalist beneficence. Even if you forget about the very real abuses going on today and recent historybecause you do not agree with the left's "interpretations" if events, the history of slavery and robbing of Native land is hard to deny.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 18, 2004 22:34 PM
I think it's interesting to have someone like realpc around to have some debate. His(her?) view is quite typical.I think you can't really understand the state the world is in today without knowing some history and historical perspective is sorely lacking in our rather myopic culture.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 18, 2004 22:25 PM
"The current American system, with all its drawbacks, is largely the result of the cleverness and creativity of our species. Try to stop genetic scientists from figuring out new and better ways to mess with nature" Actually, it is Bush and his findamentalists supporters who are trying to stop stem cell research and re-introduce creationism in school text books. Me think you're barking up the wrong tree.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 18, 2004 19:47 PM
Chomsky and his crowd are sadly lacking in spiritual perspective or intellectual agility. I have not seen a trace of wisdom in any of his recent ravings.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 18, 2004 19:45 PM
The current American system, with all its drawbacks, is largely the result of the cleverness and creativity of our species. Try to stop genetic scientists from figuring out new and better ways to mess with nature. Try to stop physicists from discovering something even more dangerous than splitting atoms. Chomsky has a lot to say about human creativity. Well I agree we are an unusual primate and I admire the creative spirit in all of us. But human creativity is probably the single greatest cause of human and non-human suffering. Chomsky and his crowd do not see the tragic irony of our situation. They do not see how complex the problems are or the kind of subtle thinking that would be required if we are to find any solutions. And solutions, if found, will always be partial and will always lead to new problems.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 18, 2004 19:39 PM
There are many evils in the world, including greed, crime and corruption. You are blaming all these evils, which exist and have existed in every known society, on modern corporations. A convenient catch-all scapegoat. We have many problems -- some of them are the eternal problems of human fallibility and selfishness, many others are the direct result of technological progress. If we look for the real causes we are in a better position to improve things than if we blame it all on a mythical all-purpose villain.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 17, 2004 21:09 PM
As we have seen, there are liability problems with cooperatives. In a medical cooperative, for example, nurses would not want to share liability with MDs. The MDs are paid more because they take a bigger risk and their skills are harder to acquire and more in demand. Shared liability would be a problem in any coop where there is considerable risk. I once worked for a small company that went out of business. I am very glad that just being hired by the company did not mean I was responsible for their debts.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 17, 2004 21:01 PM
There is nothing wrong with cooperatives, and nothing prevents them in the US. They are also democratic. If you prefer to start a cooperative rather than a corporation, who would object? And what is wrong with our labor being a commodity? What else could it be? Labor can potentially have value,, and therefore people may want to pay for it. If your labor had no value, and were not a commodity, you you could not make a profit by working.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 17, 2004 18:45 PM
We all value our own skills and over-estimate how valuable we are to society. Rather than leave it up to a central commitee of "wise" rulers, let the public vote with their dollars.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 17, 2004 18:41 PM
Capitalism rewards those who supply something that is in high demand. For ex, a great athlete gets a high salary because of high demand, a useful product sells more than a less useful product, etc. Capitalism does not always reward excellence, but it is a democratic way to determine value. A person whose skills are rare and in demand gets a higher salary than someone with skills that are either easily acquired or not valued by the public. In other words, capitalism is a way of voting on value. Each person's worth and compensation is determined democratically.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 17, 2004 06:34 AM
I think I am missing something in rd420's post. I think we do generally assume (though obviously not true in real life) that people are paid according to abilities. If I am not mistaken I am told constantly that Capitalism rewards excellence.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 17, 2004 06:33 AM
"And I guess you want the nurse who has 4 or less years of college to be paid the same as the MD with 8+ years" If schooling is the only determining factor in salary then PH.Ds should get paid a lot more than MDs, which is clearly not the case. This brings us back to the point Chomsky made in the very first post in this thread. Do people who engage in creative, highly skilled work do so because of the money, or because of the joy they derive from the work itself? If people recieve a high degree of job satisfaction in their line of work, is it not in itself a form of reward? I think people who perform boring, but necessary jobs such as cleaning toilets should be paid a lot more because these jobs carry no job satisfactions, and the reward can only be monetary. I would still rather be a brain surgeon or a physicist even though the gabarge man makes 100K a year.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 17, 2004 05:32 AM
John, You say they will be paid according to "abilities" - but who gets to decide what each ability is worth? Will it be democratic? Well, of course we all value our own contribution, so will we simply let the majority vote themselves everything? Or will pay be decided by a group of "elites"? What group, with what powers? And who will want to be a manager or administrator if they are going to be liable? You think someone wants a job with BIG RISK and low reward?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 17, 2004 01:36 AM
I work for an org with under 200 employees. Workers do not participate in high-level planning. This is because we are specialized and do not necessarily have time to be informed on all the business and financial details. The managers and directors are paid to do this. They do not have time to pay attention to the details of my job, and I don't have time for theirs. This is division of labor and in an orgazation of any complexity it's the only possibility. If I worked for a big corporation it would be even worse. The corporation could be sued for billions and the responsibility of each owner would be considerable. By your reasoning, for example, a nurse working for an MD would have to buy malpractice insurance because she/he would be liable for the MD's mistakes. And I guess you want the nurse who has 4 or less years of college to be paid the same as the MD with 8+ years. None of this makes sense.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 16, 2004 22:33 PM
My point was that it would be unfair to hold low-level workers responsible for a company, but since they would be the legal owners in your ideal world, they would be liable. I am a "lowly worker" in that I am not a manager or owner of the organization I work for. I sure don't want to be liable if anything goes wrong. I don't make high-level decisions, for one thing. But even if all decisions were made democratically, with all employees having a vote (and wouldn't that be ridiculous; it's hard enough to keep track of my own responsibilities), I absolutely would not work for a company where I had to share financial risk. I have my own small business in addition where of course I make decisions and take a risk. But I am not forced into high-risk situations by other people.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 16, 2004 19:17 PM
On preventive war: I am a "neoliberal progressive-traditionalist". I don't think any of us advocate preventive war. But anyone who did support the Iraq war (and that would include John Kerry) considered it retaliation for 9/11. However, Michael Moore told Bill O'Reilly we should have stopped Hitler before we were attacked. What is that if not preventive war?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 16, 2004 19:07 PM
"If the corporation were turned into a coop all of the people in the business would be owners. Voila! the business is owned by somebody." Great, now the lowly workers can be liable if the coop gets sued or goes broke.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Beard, Kropotkin at Dec 16, 2004 16:58 PM
(Part 4: Final) B: So what if everybody else decides to implement the preventive doctrine? What will keep them from killing you first? J: Because I believe in God and country and…(BANG!) (Just then a gun shot went off and J's head splattered against the wall. Everyone turned around only to see Barbara, his wife, standing there wearing her NRA T-shirt, her Wal-Mart sneakers, holding a 12-pack of Diet Pepsi in one hand and the smoking gun in the other.) Barb: Sorry, B. I heard what J said and thought he was going to kill you. (Barbara drops her gun, opens a Pepsi, looks into B's eyes and says…..) Barb: Be sure to vote for Bush!

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Beard, Kropotkin at Dec 16, 2004 16:57 PM
(Part 3) B: Commies?! What are you talking about? I've asked you five simple questions and now you're calling me a commie? You say that I'm attacking you? You say that I'm sneaking up on you? And you say that you should have kicked my red-ass earlier? And you said I've proved your point? What are you talking about? J: Yes, you have proved my point. B: How have I done that? J: Well, if I would have just killed you earlier on I wouldn't have to endure all this pain you're inflicting on me. See? B: I'm inflicting pain on you? What have I done? J: You may as well have stuck a knife into my back you unappreciative, Che T-shirt wearing, traitor.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Beard, Kropotkin at Dec 16, 2004 16:53 PM
(Part 2) B: Hmmm I'm not so sure you can apply the preventive medicine analogy when talking about human affairs and war. It's a little more complicated than that, don't you think? J: Hell no! It's not complicated! If we know that these folks may eventually do something to us, why shouldn't we just go after them first? Killem'! Killem' all! B: How will we determine who may want to do something to us in the future? J: See?! This is the perfect example! I can tell by the way you're questioning me that it's possible that you'll probably want to attack me in the future. B: You can tell that simply by the questions I've asked you? J: There you go again! You've just proved my point! You are attacking me! I knew I should've kicked your red-ass after you recommended that therapist! You commies are always sneaking up on us just waiting to pounce when our guard is down.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Beard, Kropotkin at Dec 16, 2004 16:51 PM
Preventive War or Preventive Thought?: The Logical Conclusion for an anti-Chomskyite (Part 1) B: You look deep in thought J. What are you thinking about? J: I was just thinking about preventive war and how it seems a good logical idea. B: Really? You think it's logical? J: You don't?! You can't be that naïve. Of course it's logical. B: Please explain yourself. J: Well, I mean if we just go kill the other people first, it will just save us the trouble of having to do it later after they attack us, and could possibly save many more lives than if we wait. And it's probably cost efficient. Why would any intelligent person wait? It's like preventive medicine. You don't wait until you get the illness before you start taking preventive medicine. Otherwise, it's not preventive medicine. How much simpler could it be?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 16, 2004 05:40 AM
"rd4d20: no one is asking doctors to work for free. Other systems such as Japan, Europe or Canada might be useful to look at however, where doctors are still paid well and most people are much healthier than in the US." I'm willing to look at other systems. Socialized health care seems somewhat inevitable, given the fact that the poor outnumber the wealthy and I'm more interested in keeping the peace than standing on free-market principle. However, the most I will support is the existance of some basic level of coverage for everybody. I do not beleive in a system that tries to force equality on everyone - one which forbids richer people to spend their money for better treatment from a private sector. We can give people coverage that they cannot afford on their own, but we should never deny coverage to people who can afford it.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 16, 2004 05:33 AM
" Americans disagree about almost everything, but they do not support torture. Americans were outraged by the Iraq prison scandals... American policy unanimously opposes torture." Ummm.. All I know is that I am an american and I know a decent number of right leaning americans, personally, who laughed at the Abu Ghraib scandal. They don't support mass torture or anything like that, but they really didn't see a problem with what happened to the people in Abu Ghraib (mostly because they just assumed they were all real terrorists). Basically, the line was "yeah, it's wrong, but they deserve a lot worse and I don't think the people should really be punished". I wasn't trying to malign my own country - but I live here and I know what people would say to me when we talked about this stuff.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 16, 2004 05:28 AM
If people are healthier in Japan, Europe and Canada than in the US I doubt it's because they have more access to medical treatment. Americans are unhealthy because of their unhealthy lifestyle. Modern medicine can save lives in certain types of health emergencies. It is practically useless for making people healthy.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 16, 2004 00:31 AM
You might find some bizarre quote by an American sadist advocating torture, but the overwhelming majority of Americans do not. If you were the least bit objective you would know this.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 16, 2004 00:29 AM
"Lots of americans support the torture of Terrorist POWS" That is absolutely not true. Americans disagree about almost everything, but they do not support torture. Americans were outraged by the Iraq prison scandals, even though this was only psychological torture and by Communist standards would hardly count as torture. Americans as a group do not accept torture. Every society has its sadists and sociopaths who advocate torture. American policy unanimously opposes torture.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 16, 2004 00:15 AM
"In reality we are all connected, and the welfare of each of us depends on the common efforts of everyone" This is true only to a limited extent. Read Dawkins "the Selfish Gene" to learn more about under what condiditions this is true and what condiditions it is false. "As for who defines the “needs of humanity,” the answer is simple: us. " Graeme, who is "us"? Humanity? Look around you - there are millions of people who argue all the time about this issue. There is no commmon consensus on what the human "good" is. "All of us here are almost certainly citizens of signatory states to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which outline the needs of humanity and compel all of our states to do their utmost to fulfil them for the citizens under their control before all other goals." Just because I am a citizen of a signatory state doesn't mean I necessarily agree with this document. I'm not saying I don't, but your example is a bad one. Lots of americans support the torture of Terrorist POWS.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 15, 2004 23:58 PM
"How about a more realistic example like health care? This is obviously a very in demand service and it is universal.But as many as 40 million Americans simply cannot afford it. Their demands just don't count. Why is there no universal medicare in the U.S like in all industrialized nations? This is because doctors see medical service as a comodity and when faced with comepting demands, the capitalists logic take over,they cater only to those who can pay, and many cannot." You expect Doctors to work for free after they spend years and lots of sleepless nights learning the skills they need? It's never going to happen.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 15, 2004 23:44 PM
The most efficient way to get a decent life for most citizens is a mixed economy. At least, nothing better has yet been developed. In the US people below the poverty line typically have electricity, cars and TVs. Health care is becoming unaffordable even to the middle class, but this is partly because of expensive advances in medical technology. It is not simply because of the lack of centralized control. Other advanced systems are also mixed, but more centralized than the US. The result is higher income tax and economies which are not as healthy. That's why the UK, Israel, and others, had to move in the direction of free markets. The US may find a solution to the health care crisis which does not depend on centralization. Or maybe it will follow the example of Europe, but the economy may eventually suffer if it does. If you care about human lives, you should consider the health of the economy. A vital economy provides good jobs and business opportunities, letting people help themselves.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 15, 2004 22:44 PM
realpc, There you go again making your opponent out to be straw man. No one is suggesting that we try to "extend everyone's life indefinitely." The suggestion is that everyone is entitled to health care and a decent living, which is well within our means to guarantee. Only callous Americans like yourself would deny such a thing or twist it so that it becomes unrecognizable.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 15, 2004 19:10 PM
We are obligated to protect the right to life. We also should accept that life is only meant to be temporary, and that trying to extend everyone's life indefinitely is a big mistake.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 15, 2004 16:50 PM
Realpc, Do you know how callous (and stupid) you sound? "Life is temporary and precarious," therefore we are not obliged to even try to protect the right to life?? That has to be the best non sequitur I've ever seen.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 15, 2004 09:55 AM
"I don't know where you live, but I can get plenty of water where I am. Why should a bottle of evian be more valuable to me than a car?" You seem to think somehow "value" should be tied to scarcity. But there is an obvious problem. By definition you may not recognize something is "valuable" until it may be too late (you're running out of clean air, clean water, etc) It is that kind of thinking that enables short sighted people to think that we can pollute and over deplete resources with impunity and most of us(not radicals by any means) are seeing consequences of that kind of short sighted, upside down, value system.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 15, 2004 09:48 AM
Continued.. You can see how the logic of according higer "value" to demands that can be backed by more cash works out in health care. The U.S system tends to favour expensive, high cost solutions(catering to the rich) to health problems.The U.S system is the most expensive in the world (14% of its GDP), yet many Americans don't have basic health coverage. The infant mortality rate in some inner cities are at third world level. Thank God I am Canadian!

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 15, 2004 09:37 AM
Your walmart example is fallicious. The poor" in America are quite well off comparing to many in the world. They can back up their demands with enough cash for Walmart to turn a good profit(because of the low cost in the first place).But I doubt the sweat shop workers who created the consummer items on sale in walmart would think that they are that affordable. Moreover, there is no competition of resources in your example. People with means shop at expensive stores with better quality. How about a more realistic example like health care? This is obviously a very in demand service and it is universal.But as many as 40 million Americans simply cannot afford it. Their demands just don't count. Why is there no universal medicare in the U.S like in all industrialized nations? This is because doctors see medical service as a comodity and when faced with comepting demands, the capitalists logic take over,they cater only to those who can pay, and many cannot.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 15, 2004 09:06 AM
" In order that you can market something for a price, not only must there be a demand, you also have to have an intended target who can back up their demands with cash! In this skewed value system the wants of the rich automatically trump the needs the poor(or not so rich)" This is not necessarily true. Walmart didn't get huge by marketing to the rich. I'm not a Wal-Mart fan, but they got rich by marketing to the not-so-rich. A few people might be able to sell designer handbags to elitest idiots for $1000 or something, but most businesses cannot market themselves only to the rich. "When we are discussing issues such as population growth and sustainability we should keep this clearly in mind.Under this capitalist value system so clearly articulated by the poster(and eco101 text books)resources are often used not to satisfy the modest needs of the majority of humanity, but are diverted to make extravagant toys for the few who can afford them." Who gets to define the "needs of humanity"? I know what you mean, we can all see some of the poverty in the world, but this question is still important. Who gets to decide who deserves, or needs, what?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 15, 2004 09:06 AM
"If your dying of thirst a glass of water is worth more than a car - regardless of the labor that went into the car, the factory, or anything else." If you truly think like a capitalist the water as a comodity probably doesn't worth a dime if the thirsty guy can't afford to pay for the bottle. Assigning value is a complicated philosophical issue, I don't pretend I have a perfect, contradiction free definition, but neither do most people who claim to be in the know. Least of all economists who mouth off simplistic, vacuous statements from eco101 text books. Let's face it economists are second rated academics at best, the brightist minds are probably working on string theory and I am sure they are not motivated by money.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 15, 2004 08:56 AM
"rd4d20: there is absolute value in human life however, which should make that water more valuable than any car, no matter how much money you have." 1) I don't know where you live, but I can get plenty of water where I am. Why should a bottle of evian be more valuable to me than a car? Even before capitalism, water was a lot harder to get, and more valuable, in Saudi Arabia than in Norway. Relative value is a fact of life, if I already have a lot of something then more of the same is simply not as valuable as something that I need but don't have a lot of - or than something that I don't need entirely. The labor theory of value is a lame attempt to try and find some "absolute" value that simply doesn't exist. Value is a relative term, and always has been. 2) Absolute vale on human life? Thats a pretty broad and vague statement. I don't support killing people because you didn't spend enough on protecting a gas leak (for example) or some other thing. That kind of thing is bogus. But I also don't think I am responisble for taking care of everyone around me and putting their welfare above my every wish. What exactly were you talking about?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 15, 2004 08:41 AM
"The labor theory of value is moronic and false. Things are worth what someone else is willing to pay for them - there is NO absolute value.." rd420 This is quite intersting. I don't know if you're aware that you actually wrote "someone is willing to pay" instead of "there is a demand". There is a huge difference! In order that you can market something for a price, not only must there be a demand, you also have to have an intended target who can back up their demands with cash! In this skewed value system the wants of the rich automatically trump the needs the poor(or not so rich) When we are discussing issues such as population growth and sustainability we should keep this clearly in mind.Under this capitalist value system so clearly articulated by the poster(and eco101 text books)resources are often used not to satisfy the modest needs of the majority of humanity, but are diverted to make extravagant toys for the few who can afford them.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 15, 2004 04:22 AM
"overpopulation is a convenient myth Westerners use to absolve themselves for the horrendous mess they've made all over the planet. " Reducing infant mortality and tribal warfare led to dramatic population increases, which traditional economies cannot support. Westerners did more harm by trying to help, than by exploiting. The West has destroyed traditional ways of life in most of the third world. A lot of this has been well-meaning, rather than exploitive (of course there was also plenty of exploitation). Now that traditional societies are mostly destroyed, the only hopeful course is for the third world to become more like us (education, technological, capitalist). And, by the way, it is so lame to accuse people of racism if they criticize the undeveloped world in any way. Racism is, first of all, an obsolete scientific theory that educated people no longer take seriously. It's possible to notice that Africa is in horrendous shape not entirely because of the evil Westerners, without being a racist. It would be pretty idiotic to claim that Africa is in horrendous shape because of the skin color of its inhabitants.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 15, 2004 03:57 AM
"how to be an activist when many issues have complex and uncertain trade-offs involved. " That is a good question. l don't think it's possible to be an activist in the usual sense if you are a thinking person. But thinking and exchanging ideas might have more positive effects that emotionally-charged activism that over-simplifies and paints the world in black and white.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Casten, J.d. at Dec 15, 2004 02:24 AM
Graeme- By the millions killed on an annual basis, I suppose you point to those whose lives might be saved under some other sort of system (with food, healthcare, etc.). But say we had a charity organization that worked like a multi-national corporation: exploiting lack of international laws; and, like an organism, divides, and multiplies with various compounding investment strategies, and good causes. Eventually this charity organism might grow quite large-- and help many people. Would a democratic world stop this charity animal? Probably- because it would not be democratically controlled. Other "static systems" might fail the test of democracy as well. Moderates see that both responsible people on the "idealist" (hypocritical?) left and "realist" (cruel?) right want human rights, security, freedom, etc., but have different "solutions" that often are at odds- sadly these differences often turn into vitriol. My question: how to be an activist when many issues have complex and uncertain trade-offs involved.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 15, 2004 01:41 AM
It is unrealistic to expect any system to be a care-taker for an ever-expanding population. Our species is a cancer in that its growth is out of control. The welfare states of Europe would not scale, and probably can't be maintained much longer without some free market reform. No welfare state could provide for the wildly expanding third world population. The best hope for the developing nations is that they continue evolving and developing an educated middle class, and learn to use birth control.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 15, 2004 01:23 AM
The labor theory of value is moronic and false. Things are worth what someone else is willing to pay for them - there is NO absolute value. If your dying of thirst a glass of water is worth more than a car - regardless of the labor that went into the car, the factory, or anything else.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Casten, J.d. at Dec 15, 2004 01:17 AM
Graeme- I see your point about a "sociopathic system;" the "system" is not even conscious, so how could it have a conscience? Some argue that the profit motive (a goal for the business person) helps the economy, and if "all boats rise," then at least people may have things (to eat). Real incomes have risen in Asia, but not in Africa (establishing a 50% tax in most African countries would not likely work out). I think it a bit ironic when some disparage the profit motive on one hand, but ask for more equality of wealth on the other-- they seem to both want and not want a slice of the materialist pie. Posibly profit, or pay, can be a measure of other types of success- not an end in itself, but a REAL indicator of how much society values what you have to offer. If everyone is non-exploitatively fed, clothed and housed, etc., and the ecology is protected, who cares if people play a game of profit surplus? If the business people are usually not bad, but the self-perpetuating system values "profits over people," then it must be demonstated that a profit motive does not help the economy (& support more people)

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 15, 2004 00:47 AM
Yes, it requires experimentation to find the optimal levels, to find a healthy balance. Society is a liviing organism.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Casten, J.d. at Dec 14, 2004 23:52 PM
In the socialism/capitalism debate that has taken root in this blog, I think it is important to remember that tax rates and services may continue to fluctuate in level as circumstances change- hopefuly economic lessons will be learned about optimum tax rates for given circumstances, and the whole "system" will be somewhat self-correcting. There is actually growing conservativism and market-friendly policies emerging in Scandinavia (low capital gains & property taxes, etc.), and Canada has lower federal taxes than the US (a 29% vs. 35% top bracket)- although I believe the top US tax brackets could be higher, lower taxes can lead to higher government revenues if investments provide broader employment- setting optimum tax rates is experimental. Note: recently, the top 1% has paid 36% of all US income taxes (5% pay 53%), and the top money-making fortune 500 company sector, drug-companies, made around an average 12% in profit- and they lead other sectors by a wide margin. Although many could use a 12% raise, and a few do get rich (and have ways to protect their wealth), I don't see profiteering (and hence gross exploitation), to be as bad as some might suspect.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 23:51 PM
A guarantee of a basic right to life has never existed in any society and it never will. Life is temporary and precarious.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 14, 2004 23:48 PM
Realpc, I'm afraid that your will power is a gift too. Why would you think that "own" this power but not others (say your intellectual abilities)? Don't all good things come from above? Everyone must work in a Communist society; but only 3-4 hours a day, given current technology. That leaves everyone with an additional 5-6 hours a day to "to create art and music, write books, socialize, etc.. All the things (most people) don't have nearly enough time for." (Read Marx on flourishing.) There are no freeloaders here either. Again, you misrepresent the position you are criticizing.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 22:20 PM
"High income tax is only a problem if you don't get anything for it." It is a problem because I don't decide what they spend my money on. I, and I guess most Americans, are glad to contribute some of our income to unfortunate people who can't work. I am not happy about contributing to things I don't believe in, such as long-term benefits for healthy individuals. I do not want to subsidize someone else's leisure time by sacrificing my own. I do not want to pay for hi-tech medical treatments for obese cigarette-smokers. Or for the many modern drugs sold to the public that often cause more harm than good. I don't use any of these things, don't believe in them, and do not want to pay half my income to provide them to others. I think every citizen deserves basic emergency medical insurance. I would not mind having some of my income tax go to educating the public and encouraging a healthy lifestyle. I absolutely do not want an all-out universal health-care system.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 22:11 PM
The federal government has an important role, defined by the constitution. Its role does not include seeing that everyone has a guaranteed income. Not everything on your list makes sense, for example: Do you go to church? Church is not government-funded, just exempt from tax. Ever served in the military? The military is obviously specified in the constitution as a function of the federal gov. Received a grant for post-secondary education? Yes, a state U. Attended public school? Funded and controlled partly by local taxes. And I think making sure all citizens have access to a minimun education is ok as a central gov. function. When the US was founded education was not as critical.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 19:49 PM
By the way, I would love it if I didn't have to earn money. I would have more time to create art and music, write books, socialize, etc. All the things I don't have nearly enough time for. But who decides who gets to stay home and be creative? I sure would not be happy if they decided the guy next store gets paid for doing nothing, while I have to work. Furthermore, countries that provide a guaranteed income have big problems, including high income tax, high unemployment. Eventually something has to give.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 19:39 PM
Oh yes, job security. You can't get fired, even if you spend all your time doing things other than what you were hired for. Sort of reminds me of Chomsky.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 19:37 PM
People who are seriously disabled, mentally or physically need and deserve help from the government. We do not have the kind of society any more where extended families are able to take good care of disable members. People who are not disabled should be allowed to grow up. The government is not a parent. And even if it were, good parents allow their offspring to grow up and become independent.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 19:33 PM
The good Lord has been generous in not giving me any disabilities that would prevent hard work and studying. I recognize that I had nothing to do with this and I owe everything to God. On the other hand, I own my will-power and determination and independence. If somebody had been taking care of me all this time I would have been much lazier than I already am (and I can be pretty lazy).

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 14, 2004 18:22 PM
realpc< Someone is making sense just because they agree with you? I suppose those of us who don't are spouting nonsense. Again, you fail to advance the discussion with an argument or a rebuttal in support of your position. Where is your proof for the claim that socialism is a "de-motivator" (sic)? Are you a psychologist who has extensively studied the lifestyles of persons living in socialist countries? I think that you are just repeating one the capitalists' slogans. You also fail to understand the importance of job-security: it allows people to flourish in ways that you are much too vulgar to understand. For you it's all about financial success. All labor has dignity. You should be thankful that the good Lord has endowed you with a few more skills than those doing menial labor. There is meanness in almost everything you say.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 15:54 PM
Hey somebody here is making sense. What happened?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Casten, J.d. at Dec 14, 2004 15:05 PM
Most of the criticisms I see, against government and corporations, has to do with corruption and deception-- breaking or stretching laws, and slogans that misrepresent what is being "sold." Does the entirety of bureaurocratic-democratic regulated capitalism have to be scrapped in favor of starting from scratch? If eliminating wealth won't aleviate poverty, why do it? (Is not money/power also a "slave" to the mass consumer?) I think employee owned companies make good business sense, as well as empowering workers. But how would employee directed corporations compete against non-employee directed corporations? What pragmatic integrative strategies could be taken within our "system" that would address its problems, and still operate and adapt to change as efficiently-- and should these strategies be ones of force, or fostering (can you force adaptive innovation?-- even innovation in social organization?).

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Casten, J.d. at Dec 14, 2004 14:17 PM
I wonder about the relationship between "consumer capitalism" and democracy, where people vote for products/services with money. One might immediatley note that some have more money, and hence more of a vote, than others (and can advertise to get more "votes" to get more money to advertise for more "votes"...), but the biggest corporations seem to be the ones that serve the masses, not an exclusive rich clientel. I think a high progressive luxury tax would be great; but the fact that that would not eliminate poverty is telling (what's happening to much of rich peoples' money?-- it's being managed well, and helping the economy (and generating jobs, and hence giving employees more leverage for wage increases due to a smaller unemployment pool), or they loose it). I don't think the "rich and powerful" are as free from mass consumer demand as some seem to suggest. Is this demand manufacured? Advertising and branding seem to make consumables into works of art and ad to thier value- Rembrant toothpaste- buying brands can be like choosing art. To bring this back to topic-- innovation seems to be measured by what people buy into-- consumer's decide what is valuable.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Casten, J.d. at Dec 14, 2004 13:49 PM
As far as capitalism being an "innovative" "system," possibly it is not money desire that spurs innovation, but the decentralized competition that is not artificially constructed. Competition is important for evolution, where with humans, competition is not only for scarce resources, but spreading new ideas, etc. Of course, natural competition may not be necessarily capitalist. It seems a little prejudiced to suggest that only artists and scients innovate for the sake of innovation- do not business people innovate (efficiency, etc.) for the love of their own work too? "Only" about 4% of the popluation are sociopaths: who would suggest that all business starters/organizers/owners are sociopathic?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 14, 2004 07:30 AM
realpc, If the capitalists profit from your labor, which they must, and you cannot make a living without being exploited by some capitalist or another, then you are being exploited (the other options that you mention are unrealistic and you know it, you are just being obdurate). Every other worker does exactly what you describe yourself as doing, including me myself. It's just that some of us are smart enough to realize that we are enslaved. You just can't see it. No one is talking about depriving you or anyone else of the ability to freely make decisions, that's simply a canard.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Paul at Dec 14, 2004 05:44 AM
... A key part of his definition was the existence of a propertyless mass for whom the sale of their surplus-value generating labor power in exchange for wages was essential to survival. Yes, very 19th century. I'm not going to even argue for any particular definition and I am aware that ZNet doctrine appears to hold that classic Marxism is long spent but I do mean to suggest that this discussion would have more coherence if it was clear exactly what it is that is being discussed.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Street, Paul at Dec 14, 2004 05:43 AM
I hope that nobody will be offended if, after 102 or so comments on the Chomsky forum writing that Mike Albert pasted into this "blog" entry, I ask what it is exactly that doesn't even "remotely exist." Someone named "sumwun" (e-mail handle) gave a definition (on page 6 of these comments) that I actually recognized, but that's about it over more than 100 comments. If NC is saying that the only real capitalism is an unencumbered stateless "laissez faire" and/or a spirit or reality of free exchange with the object of gain, then it's worth noting that this is a definition that Marxists have long and cogently rejected. See Maurice Dobb, Studies in the Development of Capitalism (1947), chaper one, where there''s an excellent discussion of what Marx at least had in mind when he talked about the "capitalist mode of production": a way in which the means of production were owned and the social relations between people resulting from those ownership relations. ...ctd.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 04:25 AM
People like to strive and they like to feel challenged. Life is really a game. Socialism is the greatest de-motivator.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 04:22 AM
And a low-skill uneducated workers is less valuable than an educated expert because the low-skill worker is easy to replace. And the more educated/ motivated/ skilled workers are more likely to be promoted to management. I don't understand glorification of workers, just because they are less successful. Most low-level workers want to improve their condition, either get promoted or start their own small business. What they do not necessarily want is what the socialists offer -- lifelong security as long as they remain a low-level worker.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 04:18 AM
" it is the workers that keep businesses operating" Who are the "workers?" There is no clear line between workers and supervisors and managers. Supervisors often start out as workers, and they often keep on working even when they are coordinating the work of others. People who coordinate and manage are also needed to keep the business operating. Maybe in Marx's day factories were clearly divided into workers on one hand and boss/owners on the other. But this is not typical today, especially in high tech or service industries.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 03:25 AM
Let's keep on reproducing until every inch is paved and all other species are extinct. Let's keep every single human alive at any cost for as long as possible.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 03:01 AM
No, I do not accept that all capitalists exploit. I have agreements with the companies I work for and I trade my time and expertise for money. If for any reason they or I want to end the contract, we are free to do that. If I wanted to start a coop or commune, I could. There are many things I do not like about our society, but the freedom, which depends on a system where individuals make their own decisions, is of the greatest value to me and to most other Americans.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 14, 2004 02:18 AM
realpc, Before we go on any further- and I do have something to say about MOP and the employer/employee relation under Communism- you need to respond to my charge that all capitalists are evil insofar as they exploit. Do you accept this thesis or not? And, if not, why?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 01:25 AM
And what the heck is the MOP anyway? If you make software or perform a service the MOP is really your knowledge and experience and reputation. The concept of class warfare and owning the MOP come from a very different era and only apply to certain limited cases in the present economic system.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 14, 2004 01:22 AM
On workers owning the MOP: If I go through the arduous process of starting a business and making it succesful, I am not going to hand control of it over to some workers I hired after I have put in years of effort. Furthermore, many businesses fail so not only do you have to get the idea and market it, you run a big risk of wasting all that time and effort. Why should workers hired late in the process take over and get the benefits of something they did not sacrifice for?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 13, 2004 22:25 PM
realpc, By debate, Mr. Name Caller, I mean critically discuss his views in a scholarly context. A real scholar would have understood that. You still have not even met my humble argument. ALL capitalists are unethical because they steal time from their workers. You still don't get it: nobody is saying all workers will act morally- it's just that with them democratically controlling the MOP, there will be no EXPLOITATION. There will probably be lots of wrongdoing still, although I'm not as cynical as you, but your time except for what you have to contribute to running the MOP will belong to you. No more spending it to create wealth for strangers. I don't hate America; but I do despise small-minded Americans like you.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 13, 2004 19:47 PM
"I suggest we find a way to deal with this reality without adopting some ideology that has never, and will never work." Extreme socialism does not work, and extreme capitalism does not work. Most advanced countries now look for a balance. That seems reasonable to me.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 13, 2004 19:43 PM
"You have no business questioning Prof. Chomsky's knowledge of a subject unless you have debated him on it and found him wanting." In other words, we can't question the knowledge of an authority figure unless we have personally debated him. Since I would not be able to convince Chomsky to debate with me, then I must accept his knowledge unquestioningly, according to your totalitarian views. No wonder you hate America.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 13, 2004 17:46 PM
Some capitalists are unethical, others are ethical. The same is true of "workers" (and I am not sure who is included in that category). Some workers are ethical, others are not. If workers took control of the MOP, some would be highly ethical, some would be somewhat ethical, others would be crooks. Just like the "capitalists" (and exactly who belongs in that category is also uncertain). Even people who are basically ethical can't help giving friends preferential treatment. You ase assuming that workers are above all of that. If workers took control of the MOP, the more assertive ones would take more power than the less assertive. The more likeable ones would get preferred treatment. A hierarchy of privilege and power would re-create itself, as it did in the SU and elsewhere.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 13, 2004 17:39 PM
Realpc, Capitalism works only for capitalists; for workers it's hell on earth, as we are slaves. There is nothing good about Capitalism that could not be realized with workers controlling the MOP: e.g., there would still be "professionals and business owners," albeit ones that did not exploit. All of the accomplishments of the capitalists are morally tainted, as they were achieved through the practice of slavery. No sane person considers the Nazis praiseworthy for building the Autobahn. You are not meeting my arguments, just 'shooting your mouth off'. We are dealing with a philosophical matter here, so you should be playing by the rules of philosophy, the first one of which is 'Either show that your opponent's argument is invalid or refute one of his premises'. You have done neither.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 13, 2004 14:55 PM
The capitalist system is logical, and it works for large numbers of people. It has evolved gradually out of earlier systems. Capitalism also has many disadvantages, the unethical behavior of some powerful corporations for example. If our society is to evolve beyond capitalism into something better, that something will also have to be logical, and the evolution will have to be gradual. If you want something better you have to acknowledge the aspects of capitalism that work well. It has given so many Americans, native or immigrant, a chance to become professionals or business-owners.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Israel, Elmlish at Dec 13, 2004 09:46 AM
There have been a large number of recent experiments in alternative "monetary" systems that have had a startingly good record of success. Some examples can be found at http://www.timedollar.org/ and at http://www.schumachersociety.org/ The great thing about a number of these systems is that wealth is not based upon the scarcity of units of exchange, but instead based upon the bounty of available products and labor. Most of these are based upon a local network, but there has been a growing interconnectivity between these diverse islands. These new economies are growing to fill in the gaps where the current exploitative systems fail to meet the needs of the people.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 13, 2004 04:31 AM
realpc, All capitalists are evil, as exploitation is evil and all capitalists exploit. Jewishness itself has nothing to do with being evil, as the Nazis thought. Anti-capitalists, however, are correct in calling capitalists evil, as my argument shows. The Nazis had no argument, only irrational hatred. You have no business questioning Prof. Chomsky's knowledge of a subject unless you have debated him on it and found him wanting. What exactly has he said in any of his writings on capitalism that you have DEMONSTRATED is "nonsense"? Meet his arguments; don't just say he is wrong. He is not well thought of by so many people just because of his theory of linguistic universals. He has shown himself to be an expert in other fields as well. And for the last time, competition does not entail exploitation any more than playing hard entails cheating.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 13, 2004 02:47 AM
So corporations have to be owned by the investors, not workers who invested nothing and who are paid for their time. (How can you define "workers" anyway? Many workers nowdays are professionals or managers.) Since a corporation is owned by investors, it must not be liable, since no one would invest if owning part of a corporation made them liable for its mistakes. Maybe there is a solution, but turning corporations into worker-owned cooperatives would not work. Of course a bunch of workers could get an idea, find investors, market the idea, and form a cooperative. But then they could not be called workers.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 13, 2004 02:43 AM
Ok, a lot of that makes sense. But a corporation results from the evolution of a successful enterprise. You can't turn corporations into cooperatives because the workers had nothing to do with the original idea, getting investors interested, the successful marketing, etc. All that requried effort from the original creator of the enterprise, as well as risk. You can't turn all that over to a bunch of workers who risked nothing and sacrificed nothing and did not create the original idea.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 13, 2004 00:03 AM
"Who are you to call into question Prof. Chomsky's knowledge of psychology and history?" I hate to break it to you, but Chomsky is a mere human like the rest of us. I am a linguist, but I have studied other subjects as well. I question Chomsky's theories of language and I question his understanding of other subjects. I agree with his famous argument that humans are born to learn a human language. That argument made him famous, and after that people started agreeing with whatever nonsense he spouted. It proves your smart if you agree with Chomsky. Well sorry, he is just a guy like anyone else, with no special claim on wisdom.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 12, 2004 23:59 PM
"Capitalists, individually and as a class, are guilty of evil; the Jews obviously were not." Some capitalists are guilty of evil, many are not. Some Jews are guilty of evil, many are not (I am Jewish, and I am not equating capitalism with Judaism in case anyone is going to misunderstand my analogy). "Because we are social it is not human nature to be greedy. " Many other mammal species are social, including chimps. We have always been social, and tribes have always competed with each other. Population increased because of agriculture and led to escalating violent competition.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 12, 2004 22:17 PM
realpc: Capitalists, individually and as a class, are guilty of evil; the Jews obviously were not. It would, thus, be a good thing for "anti-capitalism" to animate the masses. Morevover, no one is advocating here a Final Solution for the capitalists. Marx says that the workers must cease control of the MOP, which does not entail violence. Were the workers in control of the MOP, exploitation would be illegal, just as other forms of theft (the ones the capitalists recognize as such) currently are. Better yet, exploitation would be impossible, as a person can be exploited by a particular employer only if he has no way of making a living without being exploited by some employer or other. But, we would guarantee everyone a living. (It is simply false that ALL the persons now living on this planet could not be provided for by the existing MOP.) Who are you to call into question Prof. Chomsky's knowledge of psychology and history? That is an arrogant claim on your part. I for one am certainly not "uniformed."

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 12, 2004 20:02 PM
Yes I know, Chomsky sounds like a sophisticated thinker. It is the impression of authority and careful thought, the subtle combination of obvious truth and biased distortion, that wins him so many followers. But his knowledge of subjects like history, anthropology and psychology, for example, is severely limited. I have no emotional investment in opposing the radical left, as I am not involved in politics. I am concerned that anti-capitalism might turn out to be as powerful and dangerous a uniting force as anti-semitism was for the Nazis.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 12, 2004 19:49 PM
No, the economic problems of the third world are caused mainly by over-population. When there are too many people it doesn't matter who is in control, the system will not work. Look at the problems in Africa, for example. The population increase resulted from reductions in infant mortality and inter-tribal warfare -- these are "good" things, which caused horrendous misery. My point is that the problems and solutions are seldom straightforward. Chomsky's thinking is straightforward and simplistic, and that is why it appeals to the uninformed.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 12, 2004 18:55 PM
realpc, Again, you misrepresent my position; I'm not talking about eliminating the natural fact to which you refer: death. I'm talking about the unecessary, economic oppression created by capitalism. Just because the former exists, we should not give up on eliminating the latter. And, yes, capitalism is responsible for ALL the economic problems in the 3rd World. If workers controlled the MOP, they would be wiped out.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 12, 2004 17:20 PM
The happiness of belonging to a group that is all "on the same wavelength" can be temporarily achieved by having a common enemy. Early communists were in agreement in their hatred of the bourgeoisie. As soon as they won the revolution, the whole basis for agreement was gone, and harmony disappeared. This pattern re-occurred for each communist revolution. The radical left in the US is united by its hatred of conservatives, neo-conservatives and the religious right. The feeling of harmonious agreement would evaporate if this enemy were conquered. The feeling of belonging to a group that is superior and knows the answers is based on a very attractive illusion.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 12, 2004 17:06 PM
The Soviet Union ran into the problem very eary, in that the revolutionaries disagreed among themselves. To prevent things from disintegrating right from the start, Stalin had to exterminate large numbers of "comrades." Communism was intended to restore the happy situation of human beings living communally and cooperatively. But this cannot occur in a large complex system where individuals have access to information and are likely to disagree with each other.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 12, 2004 17:01 PM
The only way humans can be reasonably happy is living as hunter/gatherers in small homogeneous tribes with low population density. That is how we evolved to live -- not very different from the other social mammals. And this primitive way of life is completely destroyed on exposure to modern ideas and technology. Happiness depends on living within a small emotionally-connected group where everyone basically agrees on everything, because they have no access to contradictory information.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 12, 2004 16:57 PM
The problem of human nature will never be solved. A person in power will reward those individuals he likes and punish those who aggravate him. This will occur even if only in subtle and subconscious ways. I agree that our system needs reform, but there will never be any straightforward solution. Communism has been a disaster every single time. It's easy to list excuses and blame the US, bad luck, etc. The truth is that communism is an attempt at a straightforward solution to the problem of living on earth.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Rrotstein, Sumwun at Dec 12, 2004 08:18 AM
It's weird to claim that "nothing remotely like capitalism exists". Capitalism is not something that exists only according to some definition made by Adam Smith. Capitalism has evolved over the centuries into the highly managed, state-interventionist and protectionist system that we have today. It's based on the separation of the worker from the means of production, the extraction of surplus value, production for profit, not social use, alienated labor, division of production among competing capital units, and the market -- all features identified by Marx a century and a half ago. That makes it capitalism; it's a little perverse to claim that capitalism "really" is only what Adam Smith said 200 years ago. It IS what it has BECOME. Also, it's worth pointing out that great art HAS been made by "people working for money" -- Beethoven made great music working on commission from aristocratic courts; Charlie Parker played in dives for peanuts; Duke Ellington did a thousand one-niters all around the country. Hell, even Chomsky himself made his early discoveries while being funded by the U.S. Department of Defense.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 12, 2004 05:01 AM
As soon as a radical concedes that well the US is not so bad, for its own citizens, they immediately come back with, but look at the misery in the rest of the world. We did not cause most of that misery. A lot of it results from over-population. Yes, over-population is a major cause of misery but it isn't something radicals waste too much energy raging about. Why not? Because there is no villain and you guys love having villains to blame.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 12, 2004 04:57 AM
There are lots of things wrong with the US, and also plenty of things that are not wrong. Prof. Chomsky has a good deal at MIT but you will never hear any gratitude from him. There are valid reasons for hatred of the US right now, but don't underestimate the power of envy to generate hatred. As for my being oppressed and not even realizing it -- don't worry, I know I'm oppressed. Being alive means being oppressed, knowing everyone we love will die eventually, everything we strived for will return to dust. It's a hell of a situation. We have great freedom to change our lives, but some things we have to accept. I am not against activism, I am against the attitude of constant rage, of utter ingratitude.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 12, 2004 03:13 AM
realpc, 1st off, what about people outside the US, such as the folks working in the sweatshops to which many US jobs have been shipped? Moreover, it's simply not true that everyone is as blessed as you, bieng able to avoid doing unskilled labor. 2ndly, you are changing your claim: you said that it is possible to do more than just survive: one can become successful. What good does it do someone to leave one exploitive relationship for another? Is it possible that you are oppressed and don't even know it?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 12, 2004 00:05 AM
If you work for a company and don't like it you can leave. If they outsource your job you can work somewhere else. Or live in the woods and hunt, or start a commune, or anything you want. I work for an organization, and I also do freelance work. I am not oppressed by a corportate dictatorship, and no American has to be.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 11, 2004 22:07 PM
I am in the US, where anyone who is not disabled, a single parent, etc., can make a living if they try hard enough. I made an all-out effort to improve my education and skills because I did not like being poor or doing unskilled work. Anyone can do this and it's very common here, for immigrants as well as natives. I do not work for a corporation and never have. I have worked for academic organizations and for small businesses,

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 11, 2004 18:00 PM
realpc So the system works for you, that does not mean it's just. There are millions of people on this planet whose "constructive efforts" would be in vain; they are going to remain impoverished no matter how hard they work. No leftist of whom I'm aware suggests working should be eliminated. However, it is not unrealistic to think that we could create working conditions that did not involve exploitation and oppression. If yo want people to take you seriously, you should stop misrepresenting their positions.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 11, 2004 16:55 PM
"Every social reform that we take for granted in modern America was fought for by the radical left." I'm not sure if socialist reformers and the radical left are the same thing. I am not against reformers, although they usually go too far. In my whole life the system has never stopped me from making constructive efforts to improve my life. I agree that corporations are a problem. The founders were concerned about concentration of power in government but they did not foresee the power of big business to influence the government. I can understand wanting to reform the system, but not in wanting to tear it down or eliminate authority. Most radical leftists, in my opinion, live in a fantasy world where life is a big party, and no one has to go to work every day and get yelled at by their boss.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 11, 2004 09:04 AM
realpc: Your ad hominens are not advancing the discussion. Competition, as I've said, is not the same thing as exploitation- a form of theft.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 11, 2004 00:24 AM
The radical left consists largely of individuals who are pissed off that someone else has the power, not them. It also consists if many individuals who are highly idealistic and can't stand to see suffering or injustice of any kind. In other words, they can't stand to be alive. I can understand trying to improve things, but I cannot understand this utter lack of any sense of reality. Look anywhere in the natural world and you will see intricate networks of cooperation and competition. And you will see death and suffering, because this is earth not some imaginary heaven.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 11, 2004 00:17 AM
Oh come on. Authority is a vague and relative concept. It's childish to say you hate all authority. If everyone did exactly as they pleased at every moment things would not work. No human (or animal) society ever has been without rules and responsibilities. In primitive tribes, the authority was the oral tradition passed along to each generation. Imagine even a nuclear family that did not expect its members to follow rules and fulfill obligations. Of course we all hate authority at times, especially in such a massively complex system as our society. And of course the rules often needed to be changed, and of course the individuals in power often need to be removed from power. But authority, in some sense, is inherent in any system. You will not be able to provide a single example of a society, human or animal, without any semblance of authority.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 10, 2004 21:41 PM
If the corporations were cooperatives and owned by the stockholders, the stockholders would all be liable. Would you buy stock in a company knowing that if it were sued you might be held responsible? I sure wouldn't. I think if you want everyone to be able to invest in companies, the shareholders cannot be considered the owners. They don't make decisions. The high level executives make the decisions, and they don't seem to suffer the consequences of bad decisions. I don't know. Cooperatives do not sound like a solution. Someone has to be in charge and make high-level decisions, and that person will be resented for being the authority. So much of this leftist radicalism is about hatred for authority. But you can't get rid of it in a big complex system. Get used to authority and you will be a lot happier.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 10, 2004 20:17 PM
Yes I agree, I do not understand why we have corporations that are not liable. But maybe it's because large corporations are public and the number of owners is vast. Anyway, get rid of corporations for all I care. But Chomsky's idea of separating creativity from value, as measured by demand, is just not well thought out. So many impossible situations would result from the separation. For example, 90% of the population would be rock singers, movie actors or baseball players, most with neither real talent nor the discipline to acquire real talent. Imagine how many lame novels will be written once people are free from the need to consider demand. Yes we humans are creative, but no we cannot judge our own creations with any kind of objectivity. And asking your mother or best friend won't help. No, the market does not always select products of the highest quality, but quality is a subjective judgement.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 10, 2004 18:53 PM
I would not claim that we have the best possible system, although I do think it is the best system currently operating. I think reforms are needed and giant corporations need to be controlled. On the other hand -- complaints about the consumer society are not well thought out. The consumer society is a direct result of the creative human spirit, the drive to create new products. Chomsky admires creativity -- but the artist/inventor/entertainer/whatever creates for an audience. Demand for products (or lack of demand) signal to the creator how much value the products have. Of course we all have different tastes and I can't understand why my neighbor watches reality TV. But then he probably can't relate to my values either. Creativity and consumerism are pretty much inseparable.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Y_godin, Yann166 at Dec 10, 2004 14:00 PM
Frankly, what's the point of discussing old theories? Aren't we supposed to come up with something new? The monetary value of a product primarily depends of its image value created by the media corporation. In the pricing of a new product, costs (human, tech.) never are the determining factor. Why do you think people are ready to pay fortune for pieces of junk? We are not living in a capitalist society, but rather in a consumerist one. As Baudrillard mentions, our society was allowed to emerge in order to absorb the huge overproduction of the industrial age, hence reinstauring the lost equilibrium in the system. It was allowed in order to keep power in the good hands. It is its sole purpose. Democracy, if one such thing really exists (I tend to think the contrary), is not really necessary. Changing things would require a lot of work on the educational level and a big overhaul of the media sector, whose primary goal is to keep people self-obsessed.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 10, 2004 06:37 AM
realpc, You must have missed the term 'average worker' in my explanation of the labor theory of value

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 10, 2004 01:26 AM
So ... the longer it takes a worker to produce something, the more the thing is worth? There is no way to determine value except workers' time? This idea does not sound very practical, and I don't know a single example where it has been shown to be effective. Let's say there are two workers and one gets a bright idea for a new kind of vacuum cleaner, and he spends a year designing and building 1000 of them. The other worker also gets an idea for a vacuum cleaner but it not only takes much longer to build, it doesn't work very well. So he makes only 100 in the same year. Now worker A and worker B go out to sell their products and the ones made by B cost 10 times as much and don't work well. Ignoring demand in the value equation makes things awfully difficult. No wonder communism failed.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 10, 2004 00:23 AM
Realpc: Where do you find Prof. Chomsky advocating a valueless society or one lacking an economic structure? Sure money may be necesary as means of facilitating the exchange of goods and services. But that's a far cry from having the value of goods and services depend upon so-called market forces. In a communist society the VALUE of a good or service would depend upon how much time it took the average person to produce it. The monetary system would be adjusted accordingly. A worker would receive a wage in the form of money- it would obviously impractical to give him/her a bunch of good and services- that would enable him/her to secure good and services = the value of his/her labor.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Dec 09, 2004 23:09 PM
Dr. Chomsky, You seem to be arguing that creativity does not depend on a capitalist system, since money is not the main motivation for engaging in creative work. You also seem to claim that, since people do creative work without financial motivation, financial motivation is not useful or necessary. However, the fact that people will create without financial motivation does not suggest that money is useless. Money has a function that may not necessarily be related to the constructive acts humans perform. But you cannot reasonably conclude that, because money and the market system do not inspire all, or possibly any, creativity, that these economic basics are irrelevant. Every society has some kind of an economic system. Life is always structured, never a creative free-for-all. Maybe what we now call capitalism is not the best possible system. But there has to be an economic structure of some kind, and there has to be a system of value. Money is an abstract system of value. We could use chickens or cows instead, but an abstact system is more practical for us now. You will never find a single society where there is no system of value. What you are advocating is simply irrational.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 09, 2004 21:51 PM
Communism is an economic system according to every philosopher I've read on the subject. How else would you describe it? Capitalism MEANS workers being exploited- no exploitation no capitalism. Marx had no problem with buying and selling per se; it was the purchase of labor at less than its real value that he condemned, rightly so in my opinion and in the opinion of the vast majority of people on this planet. Again, you should stop using the Soviet economy as an example of Communism. Moreover, it would probably still exist if it had been capable of keeping up with the US economy in producing armaments. Finally, why would production cease if Capitalism disappeared? Are workers too stupid to produce consumer goods without the assistance of exploiters?

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 08, 2004 21:49 PM
John St. John, Also, where is your proof for the claim that technological animals must exploit each other? Have you conducted a psychological study of which I am unaware? I know there are plenty of capitalists who would pay a pretty penny to get their (greedy) hands on such a finding, so that they could claim to have scientific evidence supporting one of their dearest beliefs, the one that allows them to put what's left of their consciences to sleep at night as well as convince many of their victims that 'things have to be this way'.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 08, 2004 21:39 PM
John St. John, For the last time, Communism was not tried in the Soviet Union. As Prof. Chomsky has said over and over, state ownership of the means of production is NOT Communism, which is an economic system controlled democratically by workers themselves.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 08, 2004 16:54 PM
Thank you Smith777 for your feedback. Perhaps people are naturally "competitive and acquisitive." What I maintain, though, is that they are not naturally exploitive: most people are unwilling to profit from the labor of others, i.e., treat others as slaves. If I saw that my neighbor was earning money by cutting other neighbors' lawns, I might start my own landscaping company and try to take away his business. What I would not do is try to force him to work for me so that I could pocket the difference between what his labor is worth and what I have to pay him to keep him in my employ.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 08, 2004 00:21 AM
In other words, it has been my experience that capitalists and would be capitalists are mutants, mutants with enough power to convince many of their victims that their behavior is normal.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Allen, Robert at Dec 08, 2004 00:04 AM
It is simply false to say that it is a part of human nature to be willing to exploit (in Marx's sense). I offer myself as a counterexample to this claim: I have never been willing to profit from the labor of others. I could not live with myself knowing that I got more from someone else's labor than I gave him/her in return. Moreover, to borrow a line from John Lennon, "I'm not the only one." Out of a class of 25-30 students, I will usually have only 1 or 2 who refuse to see that exploitation is theft and, thus, to be avoided.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Organum, Baby at Dec 07, 2004 17:50 PM
The success of the western powers with the us in front has been attributed to systemic supperiority. But , wasnt this mostly part of the propagandawar of the coldwarera ? The Soviet Dictatorship had many a scientific and industrial success. I would blame it all on the predomination of western vs eastern classic colonialism and ( Right on target ) The geographical pros and cons of different areas The soviet was never communist as the west never went into a liberalist free fall. Cool question is wether west would have working class spending power without threat of labourcommierevolutionaries :-)

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Cfraserh, Haps33 at Dec 07, 2004 11:59 AM
Speaking strictly about the US, it seems to be more like an oligarchy than a purely capitalist society. I think the nature of power is to concentrate and capitalism encourages this, leading to systems that don't even resemble capitalism anymore. I think the issue of peak oil is important here too: unless you're in denial about it, capitalism, or whatever it is that exists now, will cease to be anyway. We don't have to wait for everyone to become "altruistic", economic growth in the United States, and most of the world, is dependent on cheap, or at least available, energy. If it wasn't oil, I'm sure it would be something else - the nature of capitalism is unsustainable because it needs growth.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Swedish, The at Dec 07, 2004 10:10 AM
Whenever in the history of mankind did things work for all the people? In the afterlife, some people would say. According to Mr Burns all efforts of man must be failures. Some people get sunshine, some people get rain. Thus the weather is a failure.

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Burns, Glenn at Dec 07, 2004 08:09 AM
When someone says, "Capitalism works..." I automatically respond: "It works for THEM. Not us." How can it "work," if it does not work for all the people? It is therefore failing. Yet, I like Noam's statement: "...nothing remotely like capitalism exists."

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Swedish, The at Dec 06, 2004 22:29 PM
Continued. We will probably do what the new zealanders did in the eighties, i.e the hegemonic socialdemocratic party will go neolib. 25 % of the swedish working-force calls in sick every day. Costs a lot. Actually three times our military budget. Capitalism will cease to be when man have found new "altruistic" ways of transactions. Personally I believe we have to wait for the greedy-gene to mutate. We better be patient. And, sir, Mr Chomsky, never ever try to concoct a mythology. Leave people alone. They don't need you or Marx or Bakunin. They need Tolstoy. He said: "People who think they're doing everything, does nothing. People who think they're doing nothing, does everything". PS. Excuse my english. Swedish is my native tongue.DS

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Re: Capitalism, an innovative and viable system?

By Swedish, The at Dec 06, 2004 20:04 PM
Fuedalism died when capitalism organically replaced it. Adam Smith didn't "invent" it. He described what he observed around his present scottich economy. This process took hundred of years. It is still in its making. Capitalism will be replaced when people will find a replacement for it, which in a similar way will grow organically from mans finacial transactions. Marx was impatient, he tried in a normative way to invent a economical system, sitting with his pen and paper in the British Museum in London. It did not work. Capitalism works. The question is what you do with its revenue. You can tax it, as we do in Sweden. The socialdemocratic welfare-system has prospered since the sixties. Not anymore. People do not want to work. We will probably do what New

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