Concluding Statement
First, I want to thank Michael Albert and ZNet for hosting this exchange of views. I do not know about anyone else, but it has been educational for me.
Much of our difference is that Michael Albert is a model-builder and I am not. This causes us to talk past each other, despite the wide range of things on which we do agree. Michael and other Pareconers keep on trying to interpret my comments as though I am proposing an alternate model of post-capitalist society. So they ask how a decentralized socialist society would work, how goods would be exchanged among regions, how libertarian communism would value goods, and so on? Frankly, I do not know the answers and am not worried about that.
It is important to have a vision, a utopian set of values, of a different, more human, unalienated, way for people to live and work and to relate to each other. This is opposed to the Marxist tendency to let the Goddess of the Historical Process take care of everything. That is a dangerous approach because it leads to accepting whatever the historical process turns up, such as totalitarianism, and calling it socialism. A workers’ revolution must be conscious, with a true analysis of how society works and with a deliberate goal. This is different from the capitalist revolutions, whose main task was to remove barriers to the market and then let it automatically perform; therefore it was possible to have all sorts of illusions and false consciousness. However this does not mean that a revolution of the workers and oppressed must have a worked-out model, as opposed to a set of values. The working people can deliberately set about to develop a new society, consciously trying out various approaches.
It can be useful for someone to develop a more-or-less detailed model of how a vision could be concretized, how it might actually work. Besides Parecon, I can think of Bookchin’s Libertarian Municipalism, Takis Fotopoulis’ Inclusive Democracy, Paul Goodman’s Scheme II in Communitas, Pat Devine’s ideas, Kirkpatrick Sale’s bioregionalism, Guild Socialism, Castoriadis’
It is important to study all these and other models, but I have no need to endorse any one (aside from rejecting market socialism or state planning). I am willing to be in the same revolutionary organization with people who are committed to any of them. No one knows how a free people would reorganize production and politics after a revolution.
I am an experimentalist. Under socialist anarchism, people will try out different plans at different times in different regions. There will be constant reorganizing. To quote Kropotkin again, from his encyclopedia article on “Anarchism,” “Such a society would represent nothng immutable….Harmony would (…) result from an ever-changing adjustment and readjustment of equilibrium between the multitude of forces and influences, and this adjustment would be easier to obtain as none of the forces would enjoy a special protection from the State.”
Michael agrees with an experimental approach, but only within the framework of Parecon. That is, there has to be iterative exchanges between workplace councils and consumer councils, not kibbutz-like communes as advocated by Bookchin or Fotopoulis. He is for a concrete determination of what industries should be centralized and what decentralized, as I am, but he still aims for a primary national plan (why not a continental or international plan?). He rejects my advocacy of as much decentralization as possible (direct democracy functions best when people have direct control over their economy and it tends to be more ecologically viable). There is a whole literature on decentralism and regionalism, which I will not attempt to summarize here.
Once we agree on a general vision, then what matters most is our program for the here-and-now, what we are going to do, what we say to advanced workers who are listening to us (even if it is mostly propaganda for the future). Which is why I could be in the same organization as Pareconists, anarchist-communists, libertarian Marxists, anarchist-syndicalists, and so on, if we agree on our program for the next period.
This is why I keep on raising the issue of voting for Obama and other Democrats, even though this is a peripheral question for Michael and even though there are other Pareconists who disagree with him. Is there something in the Parecon program which leads Michael as well as Robin Hahnel (the co-founders of Parecon) to be willing to vote for an imperialist war monger? If so, this is a problem. Or is there no connection between the model of Parecon and one’s position on voting in capitalist elections? If so, this may be even worse. What good is Parecon if it gives no guidance to current political action?
(Michael’s comparison of voting for—and working for—Obama with getting a job in the capitalist economy is pretty weak. I have to work in order to feed myself and my family. I can live perfectly well without voting for my class enemy. I work because I have to; it does not imply support for capitalism. Voting for Obama, and urging others to do so, means giving political support to a politician and his capitalist program. Also, respecting other people’s motives does not require that we agree with them.)
Tom Wetzel has associated Parecon with the idea that mass movements of opposition should be participatory and directly democratic. I agree with this. And I agree with Michael’s belief that movements should be militant and threatening to the ruling class, so that it will make concessions. This approach would seem to contradict support for the Democrats and the passivity of reliance on capitalist elections. However, it is not necessarily connected to the specific program of Parecon as distinct from a general revolutionary libertarian socialism.
There have been several topics which we might have gone into but have not, due to limitations of space and time. In our initial exchange on www.Anarkismo.net, we argued about Michael’s concept of revolution, but I have not raised it here. There is also Michael’s theory of “coordinatorism” versus my belief in “state capitalism.” While we agree that there are a range of potentially rebellious forces, I would put an emphasis on the working class that Michael may not agree with. We have not discussed our views on specific anarchist organization—although this is directly relevant to my earlier point, that a revolutionary anarchist organization should not be primarily formed around a specific model of post-capitalist society. Instead it should be in general agreement on a vision, open to specific ways that vision may be eventually embodied, and in general agreement on a program for the coming period.
Right now we are at a major turning political turning point. A large part of the



elections and strategy
By Wetzel, Tom at Oct 10, 2008 13:33 PM
I don\'t agree with your view of the state. The state is not simply "the executive committee of the ruling class,"as your comment seems to suggest. The state has a certain degree of autonomy from the capitalists. The class who administer it, the public sector part of the coordinator class, do not have an identity of interests with the capitalists. The social wage itself reflects the role of the state as an institution responsible for holding the society together and maintaining social peace. Voting means that the people running the state cannot simply ignore public opinion. I agree that it\'s not neutral ground, but it is also contested terrain. There is a struggle over what the state will do. It\'s not simply a struggle between different capitalist factions, tho this tends to predominate.
It\'s as legitimate to make demands on the state as it is to make demands on corporate employers. We should try to do that from a position independent of the state. This is a reason we do not favor a stragegy focused on elections. It commits us to defend "our" stake in governing. I would not recommend voting as even a tactic without an actual social movement that is organized, and mobilizes, independent of the government. This is why I said that, in this case, I supported this person only because his campaign came out of a particular large-scale struggle that also took on various forms of direct action -- marches, building occupations, fights against people\'s eviction, even torching of condos under construction in a couple cases.
Local government may have little power, but it has sufficient power to make a difference to working class residents in various ways. For example, one of the struggles was over eviction of hundreds of tenants from an apartment complex that was to be torn down and rebuilt as market-rate apartments. The person I supported worked in support of the tenants organization to effect a compromise that allows them to stay put and retain their rent-controlled apartments. In another case, he worked with a grassroots organization rooted mainly in the Filipino community in the South of Market neighborhood to force big developers building luxury condo highrises to cough up a community benefits agreement with millions of dollars for affordable housing and other benefits. In both of these cases it was a question of working to support grassroots organizations\' struggles.
Social democratic approaches typically do not think of their aim as being merely to support initiatives from grassroots working class organizations. They think instead in terms of their organization being a "leader" of society and crafting "solutions" to social problems, to be implemented through the state. There\'s no way I would support anything like that.
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re: what is the point to elections?
By Wetzel, Tom at Oct 09, 2008 13:20 PM
Wayne, I still see your views here on elections as a bit puzzling. It reminds me of socialists who advocate running "pure" anti-capitalist campaigns purely as an "educational" campaign. In reality no one is "educated" because no one pays attention. Purely symbolic campaigns are virtually useless and I don\'t support them even if I might vote for the person running. I supported this candidate because he had a good chance of election. And a person who is serious about winning will try to get any community groups they can to support them, including "Democratic" clubs, which can support an independent left candidate in California because local elections are non-partisan. If we agree that local elections can be situations where support for a radical candidate can be supported as a tactic, then surely we approach it seriously, and that means we should aim to win. Otherwise why bother? Elections are not good for us as a means of "education" in part because they send the wrong message precisely because we don\'t support an electoralist strategy.
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Re: re: what is the point to elections?
By Price, Wayne at Oct 09, 2008 13:36 PM
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get your facts straight
By Wetzel, Tom at Oct 07, 2008 16:37 PM
Wayne, I never told you the person in question "ran as a Democrat." In California that is not a possibility because, by state law, all local elections are non-partisan. Nor was he endorsed by the Dem County Committee. He was originally recruited to run by a coalition of tenant and community organizations which i was active in at the time. This was part of a grassroots rebellion against the Dem Party machine. While in office he tried to organize an independent city political party called the "People\'s Organization" (not a very successful effort it seems). He doesn\'t identify as a Green but his political positions are to the left of the Greens here, and more working class oriented. This was clearly perceived by the local labor movement. In 2006 local business interests poured half a million dollars into a campaign of a pro-business liberal Dem to try to defeat him. The labor council and SEIU counter-attacked with a massive campaign in the district where i live (his district). It was one of the most class polarized elections i\'ve ever seen in San Francisco. The reason for this is that this person has been a consistent fighter for tenants and working class interests.
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Re: get your facts straight
By Price, Wayne at Oct 09, 2008 11:33 AM
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strategy for change not really discussed much
By Wetzel, Tom at Oct 06, 2008 22:21 PM
I was mentioned here so I\'ll comment. I don\'t advocate "support for Democrats" or electing people to office as any kind of strategy. We make this clear in the Workers Solidarity Alliance statement of principles:
"Although we support struggles for reforms, how changes are fought for makes a difference. We oppose a strategy for social change centered on elections and lobbying because it focuses on political leaders gaining power in the state rather than building mass movements and collective struggle. Because the state is an institution of class domination, there is little hope for the liberation of the working class through the capture of the state by a political party. "
I think what is needed is the development of mass organizations that have their roots in the working class and communities of the oppressed, such as worker-controlled unions etc and that we should work to make these organizations self-managing, to help ensure people have the skills to be self-managing and not be dependent on certain people, that we should encourage collective direct action and building of alliances among movements and organizations.
Ultimately an authentically self-managing socialism can only be created from below., not thru the state. Nonetheless, tho i don\'t place much emphasis on electing people to office, I think that sometimes supporting someone for local office makes sense if this comes out of the needs of particular organizations/ movements in struggles. In the particular case Wayne criticizes me for it was a group of tenant and community organizations who decided to run one of their own people to a non-partisan office. Wayne thinks this was a bad idea. The real gains that were won from this are ignored by him. What\'s important is the actual movement, but it was the needs of that movement that were at stake.
In Workers Solidarity Alliance we have people who are "anarcho-communists" and people like me who are not. so, yes, i think it is possible to work together as long as one has an agreement on certain basic aims and values and the sort of strategy to pursue.
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Re: strategy for change not really discussed much
By Price, Wayne at Oct 07, 2008 13:44 PM
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