Determining Justice in Our Current History

A common belief, which you see all the time, is that wars are the result of “human nature.” But there is no evidence for this in genetics or anthropology or psychology. The only evidence given is that we have always had wars. True, but you could say the same about slavery or any institution that has lasted a long time. It’s a way of avoiding the fact that war, slavery, and other phenomena are not natural, but created by human beings under certain social conditions. If wars were the result of human nature it would not be necessary for governments to work so strenuously to mobilize their populations for war. People would rush to kill. But that’s not the case. Governments have to deceive the population, use enormous amounts of propaganda to persuade people to go to war, entice young people of the working class into the military in the hope of bettering their lives. If none of that is sufficient, the government must coerce the young, draft them, and threaten them with prison if they don’t join. 

I can tell you from my personal experience in the Air Force in World War II, my fellow crew members were not lovers of war. They were persuaded they were doing something good in fighting fascism, that this was a just war. You can see in the Vietnam War how, once soldiers saw through the propaganda of the government, many of them turned against the war. 

You’ve expressed reverence and gratitude for artists during times of war and popular struggle. Would you discuss the significance of artists in times of civil unrest? 

Artists have a special role in social movements—they lend passion, poetry, humor to the principles any movement espouses. They enhance the power of a social movement, which needs every additional strength it can muster to challenge the power of authorities. 

You’ve written and spoken about the importance of civil disobedience. What pragmatic and moral arguments would you articulate, both to activists and the public, regarding the legitimacy of civil disobedience in the face of legal injustice? 

It’s important to know that the law is not made by any divine being, it is not sacred; the law is made by the people who run the society and they make the law to serve their own interests. Even if there are organs of representative government in the United States, these are not truly representative of the people, but serve the interests of the elite. So it is not sufficient to tell people, “Go through the regular channels” because those channels are controlled in such a way as to block radical change. That’s why civil disobedience is necessary—in order to fulfill the requirements of democracy. Without civil disobedience, we are at the mercy of people in power who make the laws, execute the laws, and decide which laws to enforce. 

With the resurgence of groups like Students for a Democratic Society [SDS], what do you see as a new direction for student involvement in social struggles?  

This is a time in history when students, who I believe are naturally idealistic and ready to take up a just cause, need to organize. The issues are matters of life and death for young people. Will they have to go to war? Will the wealth of the country be monopolized by 1 percent of the population? Will they live in a society which they can be proud of, a society that does not make war on other people, that takes care of human needs? 

What insight would you share with activists in the reproductive justice movement? 

The crucial question is the right of women to control their own bodies and the fact that outside authorities have no moral right to tell women what to do with their children or their unborn children. When a democratic state prevents a woman from making a decision about her own life, it is acting like a totalitarian state. 

In what way do you see the movement gaining ground in the economic sphere?  

Economic democracy can only come from the organization and struggle of people against corporate and government power. Workers gain a measure of economic democracy when they form a union and challenge the power of the corporation to determine their hours and wages and working conditions. When consumers boycott a product successfully they are creating democracy in the economic sphere. 

The control of the economy by the wealthy can only last so long as people obey. When they stop obeying, when they refuse to work—or refuse to buy—the most powerful corporations become helpless. 

What would you say to those who are sometimes referred to as the elite intelligentsia about their responsibility on a greater level? 

It is important for people in the academic professions or in science or in the arts to understand that they are fortunate to have a certain degree of freedom, which most people struggling to make a living do not have. They should also understand that if they make use of this freedom to create a just society, to oppose war and militarism, they are being true to the best of their profession, to the greatest poets, the greatest writers, the greatest scholars. 

What do you feel is the potential of people freeing themselves from mass coercion and disinformation? 

This is an important insight, that we absorb the propaganda of those who control society and internalize the ideas which keep the status quo. History is useful in showing those times in the past when people have broken out of the bonds of manufactured ideas and begun to think on their own, and as a result of independent thought rebelled against the conditions of their lives.