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Ecosocialism


Towards a New Civilization



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        [Contribution to the Reimagining Society Project hosted by ZCommunications]
 

The present economical and ecological crisis are part of a more general historical conjoncture : we are confronted with a crisis of the present model of civilization, the Western modern capitalist/industrial civilization, based on unlimited expansion and accumulation of capital, on the "commodification of everything" (Immanuel Wallerstein), on the ruthless exploitation of labour and nature, on brutal individualism and competition, and on the massive destruction of the environment. The increasing threat of the breakdown of the ecological balance points towards a catastrophic scenario - global warming - that puts in danger the survival itself of the human species. We are facing a crisis of civilization that demands radical change.

Ecosocialism is an attempt to provide a radical civilizational alternative, rooted on the basic arguments of the ecological movement, and of the Marxist critique of political economy. It opposes to the capitalist destructive progress (Marx) an economic policy founded on non-monetary and extra-economic criteria : the social needs and the ecological equilibrium. This dialectical synthesis, attempted by a broad spectrum of authors, from James O'Connor to Joel Kovel and John Bellamy Foster, and from André Gorz (in his early writings) to Elmar Altvater, is at the same time a critique of "market ecology", which does not challenge the capitalist system, and of "productivist socialism", which ignores the issue of natural limits.

According to James O'Connor, the aim of ecological socialism is a new society based on ecological rationality, democratic control, social equality, and the predominance of use-value over exchange-value. I would add that this aims require: a) collective ownership of the means of production, - "collective" here meaning public, cooperative or comunitarian property ; b) democratic planning that makes it possible for society to define the goals of investment and production, and c) a new technological structure of the productive forces. In other terms : a revolutionary social and economic transformation. 

The problem with the dominant trends of the left during the 20th century - social-democracy and the Soviet-inspired communist movement - is their acceptance of the really existing pattern of productive forces. While the first limited themselves to a reformed - at best keynesian - version of the capitalist system, the second ones developed a collectivist - or state-capitalist - form of productivism. In both cases, environmental issues remained out of sight, or were marginalised.

Marx and Engels themselves were not unaware of the environmental-destructive consequences of the capitalist mode of production : there are several passages in Capital and other writings that point to this understanding.   Moreover, they believed that the aim of socialism is not to produce more and more commodities, but to give human beings free time to fully develop their potentialities. In so far, they have little in common with "productivism", i.e. with the idea that the unlimited expansion of production is an aim in itself.

However, there are some passages in their writings who seem to suggest that socialism will permit the development of productive forces beyond the limits imposed on them by the capitalist system. According to this approach, the socialist transformation concerns only the capitalist relations of production, which have become an obstacle - "chains" is the term often used - to the free development of the existing productive forces; socialism would mean above all the social appropriation of these productive capacities, putting them at the service of the workers. To quote a passage from Anti-Dühring, a canonical work for many generations of Marxists : in socialism "society takes possession openly and without detours of the productive forces that have become too large" for the existing system. 

The experience of the Soviet Union illustrates the problems that result from a collectivist appropriation of the capitalist productive apparatus : since the beginning, the thesis of the socialization of the existing productive forces predominated. It is true that during the first years after the October Revolution an ecological current was able to develop, and certain (limited) protectionist measures were taken by the Soviet authorities. However, with the process of Stalinist bureaucratization, the productivist tendencies, both in industry and agriculture, were imposed with totalitarian methods, while the ecologists were marginalised or eliminated. The catastrophe of Tchernobyl is an extreme exemple of the disastrous consequences of this imitation the Western productive technologies. A change in the forms of property which is not followed by democratic management and a reorganization of the productive system can only lead to a dead end.

Marxists could take their inspiration from Marx' remarks on the Paris Commune : workers cannot take possession of the capitalist state apparatus and put it to function at their service. They have to "break it" and replace it by a radically different, democratic and non-statist form of political power.

The same applies, mutatis mutandis, to the productive apparataus : by its nature, its structure, it is not neutral, but at the service of capital accumulation and the unlimited expansion of the market. It is in contradiction with the needs of environment-protection and with the health of the population. One must therefore "revolutionize" it, in a process of radical transformation. This may mean, for certain branches of production, to discontinue them : for instance, nuclear plants, certain methods of mass/industrial fishing (responsible for the extermination of several species in the seas), the destructive logging of tropical forests, etc (the list is very long !). In any case, the productive forces, and not only the relations of production, have to be deeply changed - to begin with, by a revolution in the energy-system, with the replacement of the present sources -essentially fossile - responsible for the pollution and poisoning of the environment, by renewable ones : water, wind, sun. Of course, many scientific and technological achievements of modernity are precious, but the whole productive system must be transformed, and this can be done only by ecosocialist methods, i.e. through a democratic planning of the economy which takes into account the preservation of the ecological equilibrium.

The issue of energy is decisive for this process of civilizational change. Fossile energies (oil, coal) are responsible for much of the planet's pollution, as well as for the disastrous climate change; nuclear energy is a false alternative, not only because of the danger of new Tchernobyls, but also because nobody knows what to do with the thousands of tons of radioactive waist - toxic for hundreds, thousands and in some case millions of years - and the gigantic masses of contaminated obsolete plants. Solar energy, which did never arise much interest in capitalist societies, not being "profitable" nor "competitive", would become the object of intensive research and development, and play a key role in the building of an alternative energetic system.

Entire sectors of the productive system are to be suppressed, or restructured, new ones have to be developed, under the necessary condition of full employment for all the labour force, in equal conditions of work and wage. This condition is essential, not only because it is a requirement of social justice, but in order to assure the workers support for the process of structural transformation of the productive forces. This process is impossible without public control over the means of production, and planning, i.e. public decisions on investment and technological change, which must be taken away from the banks and capitalist enterprises in order to serve society's common good.

Society itself, and not a small olygarchy of property-owners - nor an elite of techno-bureaucrats - of will be able to choose, democratically, which productive lines are to be privileged, and how much resources are to be invested in education, health or culture. The prices of goods themselves would not be left to the "laws of offer and demand" but, to some extent, determined according to social and political options, as well as ecological criteria, leading to taxes on certain products, and subsidized prices for others. Ideally, as the transition to socialism moves forward, more and more products and services would be distributed free of charge, according to the will of the citizens. Far from being "despotic" in itself, planning is the exercise, by a whole society, of its freedom : freedom of decision, and liberation from the alienated and reified "economic laws" of the capitalist system, which determined the individuals' life and death, and enclosed them in an economic "iron cage" (Max Weber). Planning and the reduction of labor time are the two decisive steps of humanity towards what Marx called "the kingdom of freedom". A significant increase of free time is in fact a condition for the democratic participation of the working people in the democratic discussion and management of economy and of society.

The socialist conception of planning is nothing else as the radical democratization of economy : if political decisions are not to be left for a small elite of rulers, why should not the same principle apply to economic ones ? I'm leaving aside the issue of the specific proportion between planning and market mechanisms : during the first stages of a new society, markets will certainly keep an important place, but as the transition to socialism advances, planning would become more and more predominant, as against the laws of exchange-value.

While in capitalism the use-value is only a means - often a trick - at the service of exchange-value and profit - which explains, by the way, why so many products in the present society are substantially useless - in a planned socialist economy the use-value is the only criteria for the production of goods and services, with far reaching economic, social and ecological consequences. As Joel Kovel observed : "The enhancement of use-values and the corresponding restructuring of needs becomes now the social regulator of technology rather than, as under capital, the conversion of time into surplus value and money". 

In a rationally organised production, the plan concerns the main economic options, not the administration of local restaurants, groceries and bakeries, small shops, artisan enterprises or services. It is important to emphasize that planning is not contradictory with workers self-management of their productive units : while the decision to transform an auto-plant into one producing buses and trams is taken by society as a whole, through the plan, the internal organization and functioning of the plant is to be democratically managed by its own workers. There has been much discussion on the "centralised" or "decentralised" character of planning, but it could be argued that the real issue is democratic control of the plan, on all its levels, local, regional, national, continental and, hopefully, international : ecological issues such as global warming are planetary and can be dealt with only on a global scale. One could call this proposition global democratic planning; it is quite the opposite of what is usually described as "central planning", since the economic and social decisions are not taken by any "center", but democratically decided by the concerned population.

Ecosocialist planning is therefore grounded on a democratic and pluralist debate, on all the levels where decisions are to be taken : different propositions are submitted to the concerned people, in the form of parties, platforms, or any other political movements, and delegates are accordingly elected. However, representative democracy must be completed - and corrected - by direct democracy, where people directly choose - at the local, national and, later, global level - between major social and ecological options : should public transportation be free ? Should the owners of private cars pay special taxes to subsidize public transportation ? Should sun-produced energy be subsidized, in order to compete with fossile energy ? Should the weekly work hours be reduced to 30, 25 or less, even if this means a reduction of production ? The democratic nature of planning is not contradictory with the existence of experts, but their role is not to decide, but to present their views - often different, if not contradictory - to the population, and let it choose the best solution.

 What guarantee is that the people will make the correct ecological choices, even at the price of giving up some of its habits of consumption ? There is no such "guarantee", other than the wager on the rationality of democratic decisions, once the power of commodity fetichism is broken. Of course, errors will be committed by the popular choices, but who believes that the experts do not make errors themselves ? One cannot imagine the establishment of such a new society without the majority of the population having achieved, by their struggles, their self-education, and their social experience, a high level of socialist/ecological consciousness, and this makes it reasonable to suppose that errors - including decisions which are inconsistent with environmental needs - will be corrected. In any case, are not the proposed alternatives - the blind market, or an ecological dictatorship of "experts" - much more dangerous than the democratic process, with all its contradictions?

 The passage from capitalist "destructive progress" to ecosocialism is an historical process, a permanent revolutionary transformation of society, culture and mentalities. This transition would lead not only to a new mode of production and an egalitarian and democratic society, but also to an alternative mode of life, a new ecosocialist civilization, beyond the reign of money, beyond consumption habits artificially produced by advertising, and beyond the unlimited production of commodities that are useless and/or harmful to the environment. It is important to emphasize that such a process cannot begin without a revolutionary transformation of social and political structures, and the active support, by the vast majority of the population, of an ecosocialist program. The development of socialist consciousness and ecological awareness is a process, where the decisive factor is peoples own collective experience of struggle, from local and partial confrontations to the radical change of society.

Should development be pursued, or should one choose "negative growth" (décroissance) ? It seems to me that these two options share a purely quantitative conception of - positive or negative - "growth", or of the development of productive forces. There is a third position, which seems to me more appropriate : a qualitative transformation of development. This means putting an end to the monstrous waste of resources by capitalism, based on the production, in a large scale, of useless and/or harmful products : the armaments industry is a good example, but a great part of the "goods" produced in capitalism - with their inbuilt obsolescence - have no other usefulness but to generate profit for the great corporations. The issue is not "excessive consumption" in abstract, but the prevalent type of consumption, based as it is on conspicuous appropriation, massive waste, mercantile alienation, obsessive accumulation of goods, and the compulsive acquisition of pseudo-novelties imposed by "fashion". A new society would orient production towards the satisfaction of authentic needs, beginning with those which could be described as "biblical" - water, food, clothing, housing - but including also the basic services : health, education, transport, culture.

Obviously, the countries of the South, were these needs are very far from being satisfied, will need a much higher level of "development" - building railroads, hospitals, sewage systems, and other infra-structures - than the advanced industrial ones. But there is no reason why this cannot be accomplished with a productive system that is environment-friendly and based on renewable energies. These countries will need to grow great amounts of food to nourish their hungry population, but this can be much better achieved - as the peasant movements organised world-wide in the Via Campesina network have been arguing for years - by a peasant biological agriculture based of family-units, cooperatives or collectivist farms, rather than by the destructive and anti-social methods of industrialised agro-business, based on the intensive use of pesticides, chemicals and GMOs. Instead of the present monstruous debt-system, and the imperialist exploitations of the resources of the South by the industrial/capitalist countries, there would be a flow of technical and economic help from the North to the South, without the need - as some Puritan and ascetic ecologists seem to believe - for the population in Europe or North America to "reduce their standard of living" : they will only get rid of the obsessive consumption, induced by the capitalist system, of useless commodities that do not correspond to any real need.

How to distinguish the authentic from the artificial, false and makeshift needs? The last ones are induced by mental manipulation, i.e. advertisement. The advertisement system has invaded all spheres of human life in modern capitalist societies : not only nourishment and clothing, but sports, culture, religion and politics are shaped according to its rules. It has invaded our streets, mail boxes, TV-screens, newspapers, landscapes, in a permanent, aggressive and insidious way, and it decisively contributes to habits of conspicuous and compulsive consumption. Moreover, it wastes an astronomic amount of oil, electricity, labor time, paper, chemicals, and other raw materials - all paid by the consumers - in a branch of "production" which is not only useless, from a human viewpoint, but directly in contradiction with real social needs. While advertisement is an indispensable dimension of the capitalist market economy, it would have no place in a society in transition to socialism, where it would be replaced by information on goods and services provided by consumer associations. The criteria for distinguishing an authentic from an artificial need, is its persistence after the suppression of advertisement (Coca Cola !). Of course, during some years, old habits of consumption would persist, and nobody has the right to tell the people what their needs are. The change in the patterns of consumption is a historical process, as well as an educational challenge.

Some commodities, such as the individual car, raise more complex problems. Private cars are a public nuisance, killing and maiming hundreds of thousand people yearly on world scale, polluting the air in the great towns - with dire consequences for the health of children and older people - and significantly contributing to the climate change. However, they correspond to a real need, by transporting people to their work, home or leisure. Local experiences in some European towns with ecologically minded administrations, show that it is possible - and approved by the majority of the population - to progressively limit the part of the individual automobile in circulation, to the advantage of buses and trams. In a process of transition to ecosocialism, where public transportation - above or underground - would be vastly extended and free of charge for the users, and where foot-walkers and bicycle-riders will have protected lanes, the private car would have a much smaller role as in bourgeois society, where it has become a fetish commodity - promoted by insistent and aggressive advertisement - a prestige symbol, an identity sign - in the US, the drivers license is the recognized ID - and the center of personal, social or erotical life.

Ecosocialism is based on a wager, which was already Marx's : the predominance, in a society without classes and liberated of capitalist alienation, of "being" over "having", i.e. of free time for the personal accomplishment by cultural, sportive, playful, scientific, erotic, artistic and political activities, rather than the desire for an infinite possession of products. Compulsive acquisitiveness is induced by the commodity fetishism inherent in the capitalist system, by the dominant ideology and by advertisement : nothing proves that its is part of an "eternal human nature", as the reactionary discourse wants us to believe. As Ernest Mandel emphasized : "The continual accumulation of more and more goods (with declining "marginal utility") is by no means a universal and even predominant feature of human behavior. The development of talents and inclinations for their own sake; the protection of health and life; care for children; the development of rich social relations (...) all these become major motivations once basic material needs have been satisfied". 

This does not mean that there will not arise conflicts, particularly during the transitional process, between the requirements of the environment protection and the social needs, between the ecological imperatives and the necessity of developing basic infra-structures, particularly in the poor countries, between popular consumer habits and the scarcity of resources. A class-less society is not a society without contradictions and conflicts ! These are inevitable : it will be the task of democratic planning, in an ecosocialist perspective, liberated from the imperatives of capital and profit-making, to solve them, by a pluralist and open discussion, leading to decision-making by society itself. Such a grass-roots and participative democracy is the only way, not to avoid errors, but to permit the self-correction, by the social collectivity, of its own mistakes.

Is this Utopia? In its etymological sense - "something that exists nowhere" - certainly. But are not utopias, i.e. visions of an alternative future, wish-images of a different society, a necessary feature of any movement that wants to challenge the established order ? As Daniel Singer explained in his literary and political testament, Whose Millenium ? , in a powerful chapter entitled "Realistic Utopia", "if the establishment now looks so solid, despite the circumstances, and if the labor movement or the broader left are so crippled, so paralyzed, it is because of the failure to offer a radical alternative. (...) The basic principle of the game is that you question neither the fundamentals of the argument nor the foundations of society. Only a global alternative, breaking with these rules of resignation and surrender, can give the movement of emancipation genuine scope". 

The socialist and ecological utopia is only an objective possibility, not the inevitable result of the contradictions of capitalism, or of the "iron laws of history". One cannot predict the future, except in conditional terms : in the absence of an ecosocialist transformation, of a radical change in the civilizational paradygm, the logic of capitalism will lead the planet to dramatic ecological disasters, threatening the health and the life of billions of human beings, and perhaps even the survival of our species.

* * * *

To dream, and to struggle, for a new civilization does not mean that one does not fight for concrete and urgent reforms. Without any illusions on a "clean capitalism", one must try to win time, and to impose, on the powers that be, some elementary changes : the banning of the HCFCs that are destroying the ozone layer, a general moratorium on genetically modified organisms, a drastic reduction in the emission of the greenhouse gases, the development of public transportation, the taxation of polluting cars, the progressive replacement of trucks by trains, a severe regulation of the fishing industry, as well as of the use of pesticides and chemicals in the agro-industrial production. These, and similar issues, are at the heart of the agenda of the Global Justice movement, and the World Social Forums, which has permitted, since Seattle in 1999, the convergence of social and environmental movements in a common struggle against the system.

These urgent eco-social demands can lead to a process of radicalisation, on the condition that one does not accept to limit one's aims according to the requirements of "the [capitalist] market" or of "competitivity". According to the logic of what Marxists call "a transitional program", each small victory, each partial advance can immediately lead to a higher demand, to a more radical aim.

Such struggles around concrete issues are important, not only because partial victories are welcome in themselves, but also because they contribute to raise ecological and socialist consciousness, and because they promote activity and self-organisation from bellow : both are decisive and necessary pre-conditions for a radical, i.e. revolutionary, transformation of the world.

There is no reason for optimism : the entrenched ruling elites of the system are incredibly powerful, and the forces of radical opposition are still small. But they are the only hope that the catastrophic course of capitalist "growth" will be halted. Walter Benjamin defined revolutions as being not the locomotive of history, but the humanity reaching for the emergency breaks of the train, before it goes down the abyss...
 

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Two Comments

By Agnostic, Justin at Oct 11, 2009 22:13 PM

I am sorry if this appears twice I was having trouble getting it to save.

 

I have two comments, one on each of the streams of discussion taken here: the debate between horizontal planning generally or ParEcon specifically, as opposed to some form of democratic centralized planning; and the discussion of the environmental movements relationship to the labor movement and anti-capitalist movements.

 

First my comment on the discussion of ParEcon versus democratic centralized planning, Albert seems to be arguing that centralized democratic discussion of every issue to be decided is impossible, be these decisions economic, political, social, ecological in nature. I believe this to clearly be true, the amount of time necessary for a people to be meaningfully engaged in every decision would be absolutely prohibitive.  Lowy is arguing what seems to be two points: that decentralized planning mechanisms will fail when the consequences of decisions are not known; and that ParEcon’s mechanisms will fail where decisions are required that take longer to execute than any single planning period.  I wonder if the answer to Lowy objections would be making some decisions through a political process and taking those decisions out of the ParEcon mechanism?  Take for example the issue discussed below, global warming, the problem with using ParEcon’s iterative horizontal valuation process, as I understand it, to make some of the decisions regarding global warming is that we do not know what ecological impact specific amounts of CO2 will have on the global weather system.  However, if a decision regarding how much CO2 output by human activity could be tolerated was made politically, the iterative valuation mechanisms of ParEcon should work fine.  The issue of CO2 output would not be negotiated through the decentralized planning mechanism, as it would have been decided centrally, but instead the iterative process would create valuations with a set amount CO2 emissions as a given.

 

As to decisions that require consistency over longer periods than a single planning cycle, I suppose layered planning, making some long term decisions in longer ParEcon cycles, or alternatively again surrendering the question to political decision mechanisms could be used to set long term decisions out of the single cycles of ParEcon planning.  I have to believe that this issue, efforts that take longer to execute than a single planning cycle must be dealt with in the ParEcon literature.  Michael, is that the case, and if so could you give a brief description of the modeled solution?

 

Second my comment on the relationship of the environmental movement to the labor movement, I think the degree to which either the labor movement or the environmental movement is liberal (as in operating within the confines of Capitalism) and not anti-capitalist, the two movements may well be in opposition to each other.  The reason I say this is because, what a liberal labor movement is seeking is something looking like Keynesianism, an expansive Capitalism in which the majority of the value of the surplus created is distributed to the working class.  A liberal green movement wants expansion to be subordinated to environmental concerns.  Both of these objects cannot be achieved at the same time within a Capitalist framework.  As we know for Capitalism to work the holdings of the Capital class must grow, which means one of two things or both must occur: the economy must expand (which is incompatible with environmental concerns); or wealth must be redistributed from working people to the holdings of the capitalist class (which is obviously not compatible with the desires and needs of the labor movement).  This is politically counter intuitive, in that working people have an interest in both a livable environment and distributive justice so the constituency of both movements is likely to greatly overlap, but I think it is the hard reality of two concerns vying for use of the same limited flexibility of the Capitalist system.

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Re: No limits on knowledge

By Foti, Alex at Aug 21, 2009 09:01 AM

hi siblings, sorry to jump so late into the discussion, but my piece intersects with a lot of ground here discussed: http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/22367

best wishes for social justice and climate action.  will post more to this thread soon,

lx

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Ecology and Marxism, a difficult marriage?

By Adamovsky, Ezequiel at Aug 20, 2009 13:34 PM

I did not mean to say that Marxism, as a tradition, will be unable to cope with a non-productivist view of the future. I believe it should and it  will. Indeed, as ML says, there is already a valuable body of Marxist thinking which is pointing towards that direction. And of course, Georgescu offers no political alternative at all.

What I intended to say was, rather, that in order to better develop a non-productivist view of the future, we should, perhaps, embrace the wider body of social theorizing that different branches of the socialist movement have produced in the past (including Marxism, of course). The Marxist tradition has rejected many contributions of other socialist thinkers, on the grounds that they were not "scientific", that they were "traditional", "peasant", "looking towards the past instead of being 'modern'", "petty-bourgeois", etc. But we now realise that, some of them, had anticipated some of the dilemmas that we are facing today --the ecological collapse being one of them--, while the Marxist tradition has not. Perhaps it is time to reconsider the socialist tradition as a whoie, under a new light. The exclusive place granted to Marxism should be, perhaps, questioned.

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Re: Ecology and Marxism, a difficult marriage?

By Lowy, Michael at Sep 05, 2009 12:12 PM

Dear Adamowsky,  I eintirely agree wih your last suggestion !    No exclusivity of Marxism,  and the need to take into account other socialist traditions,  like those of peasant and indigenous movements.  In fact,  Marx himself became intereste in peasant communitarian traditions in Russia,  and had sympathies with the Russian so-called "popuists";  he wrote to Vera Zassulitsch in 1881 that the peasant communitarian traditions in Russia could be the starting point for a socialist road And Latin-American Marxist José Carlos Mariategui wrote about  "inca communism",  and explained that modern socialism in Latin-America has to take roots in indigenous communitarian traditions;  he called this  "indo-american socialism".  Today in Latin-America we have  very lively peasant and indigenous anti-capitalist movements.  An indigenous leader from Peru told me recently :  the indigenous peoples have been practicing ecosocialism for centuries...Recent developments in Bolivia point to the extraordinary potential of the peasant/indigenous movements for a radical social change.

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_ale4308

Ecology and Marxism, a difficult marriage?

By Adamovsky, Ezequiel at Aug 07, 2009 14:19 PM

 

This debate is very interesting, thank you all. I was curious about something, sorry to bring a totally different issue here. In trying to combine Marxism and ecology, Michael Löwy mentioned the horizon of “décroissance” as one we should consider endorsing. I imagine he has in mind Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen’s holistic theory of economy, society and biophysical constraints, which he called “bioeconomics”. While illuminating the complex relationship between individual decisions and the biophysical and social context of economic activity, Georgescu came to reject some of the main tenets of neo-classic economics. In turn, this approach led him to a thorough critique of the imperative of economic growth. In his most important work, The Entropy Law and the Economic Process (1971), he invoked the Second Law of Thermodynamics to argue that there are biophysical limits to growth and that human society should restrain, rather than encourage, its impulses towards increasing production and consumption (in other words, we should pursue la décroissance). Humans, he warned, are the most significant contributors to the entropic degradation of the world, by the increasing rates of extraction of natural resources and elimination of wastes into the environment. Georgescu listed consumerism and social inequality as two of the main impediments to the radical (but indispensable) changes that he envisioned to ensure the long-run sustainability of the human species. Not many people know that Georgescu found inspiration for his path-breaking studies in earlier works of a non-Marxist (or at least non-orthodox Marxist) brand of socialist thinkers, usually referred to as “Populists” or “Neo-Populists”. Their intellectual trajectory goes the nineteenth-century debates on the future of the peasant communes among Russian populists and Marxists, to the demise of the agrarian parties of Eastern Europe in the 1930s and 1940s (Georgescu was himself a member of the Rumanian National Peasant Party in the 1930s). I was wondering if we should not pay more attention to this tradition, instead of trying to reconcile Marxism with a non-productivist view of the future –something that, perhaps, is not totally possible, I’m afraid…

 

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Re: Ecology and Marxism, a difficult marriage?

By Foti, Alex at Aug 24, 2009 03:54 AM

I found Michael Lowy's paper extremely well argued (and written!), but I tend to sympathize with Ezequiel's argument. Georgescu-Roegen (a social conservative) provides the crucial critique of the capitalist consumer economy from an ecological (rather than a social) point of view. Workers' self-emancipation and environmental action need to become allies for a progressive coalition to emerge, but they remain different in their inner logic (Scargill's presence at last year's climate camp made it clear how certain differences are not reconcilabe and green imperatives shall take precedence over defeding miners' jobs).

If a politically cogent case for ecosocialism can be made, it'll have to integrate and respond to Giovanni Arrighi's crucial last book on China's role and meaning for capitalism, and also periodize and articulate better what kind of capitalism we're witnessing and how the climate crisis is affecting it. The crisis of industrialism is not the same as the crisis of capitalism or the crisis of the west. And I don't think that Lenin's developmentalism did not have roots in Marx's thinking, after all an enthusiastic admirer of the industrial revolution achieved by the liberal bourgeoisie, the one that started burning coal on a large scale. But certainly environmental justice movements on land, water, minerals in the South of the world are red-green and can be properly named ecosocialist.

However, because of its association with leninist and maoist dictatorships, socialism outside Latin America does not seem very attractive for younger generations and the emerging precarious cognitariat (possibly the new general class in overdeveloped capitalism). Libertarianism seems a more promising political program, as pirate parties have well understood. And there's no doubt that anarchism has provided a stronger source of inspiration and action than marxism in the Seattle-Rostock movement. I see marxism at its most vital when it has tried to investigate the social subjectivities that have emerged over the last three decades -- the precarious, the creative, the immigrant, the female laborers -- and describe the new dynamics of labor conflict and social stratification, notably the post-workerist authors or the revival of the syndicalist tradition in Northern Europe.

Finally, my exhortation is to think the Great Recession together with the climate crisis, because capitalism will emerge from the economic crisis institutionally very different from what we have experienced during the neoliberal age. The paper I posted is an attempt to historically periodize contemporary capitalism and lay out some scenarios of the incipient class struggle between green capitalists and ecoradicals.

 

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Re: Re: Ecology and Marxism, a difficult marriage?

By Lowy, Michael at Sep 05, 2009 13:37 PM

I thank Alex Foti for his comments.  We agree that worker's self-emancipation and ecological action need to become  allies.  I don't think there is a contradiction between the "inner logic" of both,  but there is one between their present leaderships. As long as greens ignore the issue of capitalism,  and worker's rights,  and as long as trade-unionists and socialists ignore the burning ecological issues,  the alliance sill be difficult.  The ecosocialist struggle aims at bringing workers and ecologists around a common platform,  against capitalism and productivism.  We won't be able to implement an ecological revolution if we do not get the support of the labour classes,  in the broadest meaning, not limited to a specific sector -  blue-collar workers,  "cog nitariat",  the precarious,  etc. 

          You are right in thinking the Great Recession together with the climate crisis. But I think this means that the crisis is a general one :  economical,  industrial,  ecological.  It is a crisis of the Western capitalist model of civilisation !

            I also think that the anarchist and libertarian  component of the "Seattle people" is very important and productive.  One of the great forces of the "movement of movements" is to bring together all radical currents -  marxist, ecological,  anarchist,  feminist,  indigenous.  The movement is an extraordinary occasion for people to learn from each other's experience.

               "Socialism" served to justify bureaucratic dictatorships,  but one should not throw away the baby with the -  very - dirty water.  "Democracy" was used by US imperialism to justify it's war in Vietnam,  but we should not give up democracy because of it...I think Latin-Americans are right in raising the perspective of a 21th century socialism,  with new perspectives -  democratic,  ecological -  and wih a critical distance from 20th century so-called socialist experiments.

        

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Re: Ecology and Marxism, a difficult marriage?

By D'Arcy, Steve at Aug 07, 2009 15:05 PM

In response to the suggestion (by Ezequiel Adamovsky) that reconciling marxism with a "non-productivist view of the future" may be impossible, I'd like to insist on a couple of points: first, there are "non-productivist" ideas of the future already in Marx, notably in the German Ideology and in Capital, although these are often subject to multiple and conflicting interpretations, I admit; second, and more importantly, the marxist tradition has proven itself to be very flexible (often, but not always, in a good way): compare William Morris, Josef Stalin, Herbert Marcuse, Anton Pannekoek, Angela Davis, Antonio Gramsci, Mao Zedong, Rosa Luxemburg, Michael Harrington, Ernesto Guevara, and Wilhelm Reich, to name only a few.

Also, marxism is not one "theory" (as some call it), but many things, including theories, strategies, approaches to this or that. For instance, even if we confine our attention to Marx, as distinct from the more diverse tradition of marxism, we can ask whether or not Marx's critique of political economy is or isn't consistent with an ecologically motivated vision of the future; but then we still have to ask the same question, separately, about his positive theory of capitalist development, his strategy of working-class self-emancipation, his ideal of a classless, stateless society; his theory of the dynamics of social change ('historical materialism'); his preference for a socialist project founded on critical social theory ('scientific socialism') rather than moral ideals ('utopian socialism'); and so on. So, it is not one question: Marx and ecology, yes or no? It is several questions, and there's no particular reason to suspect that one answer will come back for all of these questions.

A related point applies to populism or the National Peasants Party. Was it not a pro-capitalist (or non-socialist) party? Was it not a pro-monarchy party? There may be other elements to retrieve, of more value, but not a wholesale embrace, I'm sure you'd agree. But this need to disentangle retrieveable from dispensible elements holds for marxism, too (and not only vis-a-vis ecologically motivated ideals about the future, but in general).

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Re: Ecology and Marxism, a difficult marriage?

By Lowy, Michael at Aug 08, 2009 07:14 AM

  I agree with Adamowsky that Georgescu has many interesting contributions such as the rejection of illimited growth,  the critique of consumerism and social inequality.  What is lacking -  and here is the important Marxist contribution - is to relate all these phenomena,  to the irrational and unsustainable logic of the capitalist system. Moreover,  I think we are confronted today with dramatic ecological perspectives of catastrophic proportions (global warming) much more urgent than the long term process of enthropy,  or the scarcity of natural ressources,  etc.  What Georgescu also lacks also  is a clear view of an alternative society,  based on the collective ownership and democratic self-management (planning) of the productive forces, and their radical transformation according to ecological requirements.  I believe,  as I said in my paper,  that this requires a significant revision of some "classical" Marxist arguments. In any case,  a Marxist anti-productivist view of the future,  far from being "impossible",  exists already,  as developed  by several authors,  social movements,  political currents,  cur etc.

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Re: No limits on knowledge

By Wetzel, Tom at Jul 23, 2009 12:33 PM

Michael, I would say that your comment here shows a misunderstanding of participatory planning. But it's a common misunderstanding, in my observation. I think the problem derives from the way Robin and Michael present the participatory economics model. Let's suppose that there are community assemblies, elected delegates, and federations of these in a region. We can think of these bodies as being responsible for long-term regional planning in regard to infrastructure such as transportation and public services and also as stewards of the environmental commons. As such, it would be their responsibility to do things like come up with plans for re-orienting the land use pattern away from auto dependency, shifting resources to public transit and so on. Thus "consumption" has its long-term aspect and it includes "consumption" of the "services" that nature provides. But these community assemblies, councils, regional federations of them, can also be understood as the governance bodies in those areas. Thus if you agree that the public power is to be re-organized to emphasize assemblies, participatory democracy, and greater control by residents, this seems quite consistent with these governance bodies negotiating cooperatively with the worker self-management organizations.

Robin Hahnel does deal with issues of long-term planning in his contribution to Reimagining Society and he deals with the relevance of participatory planning to environmental sustainability in Economic Justice and Democracy.

If you don't agree that the planning should involve negotiation with the worker self-management organizations in the industries that are doing the work, then doesn't this imply an imposition of some sort of managerial hierarchy over them? And then how is this consistent with the socialist aim of working class empowerment?

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Re:

By Lowy, Michael at Jul 23, 2009 14:21 PM

  Dear Tom,  let me try to answer your question.  The plan,  democratically ddecided by the whole concerned population -  regional,  national,  etc - either by assemblies,  or in some important issues,  by direct vote of the population,  gives a general orientation,  whose implementation can be negotiated with the workers self-management of the unit.   For instance :  by a democratic decision,  the French population decides to discontinue nuclear energy.  This is not an issue left to the self-management of nuclear units !  Nor should it be  "negotiated" with them.  But how to dismantle the existing nuclear facilities has to be discussed with the self-management of the units.  The same applies to chemical facilities producing pesticides,  military industries producing nuclear submarines,  etc,  etc.  In some other cases,  the plan calls for the development of solar energy units,  not yet existing;  this is a general democratic decision on investment;  the best ways to implement it in each unit will be negotiated with the local self-management.  In other words :  democratic eco-socialist planning is not contradictory wih worker's self-management.  

           I'm not sure,  on the other hand,  that individuals can be reduced only to  "producers" and  "consumers".  There are general social,  ecological,  political,  cultural issues which have to be discussed and decided,  which do not quite enter into those economic categories.  For instance, in a post-capitalist society  the struggle to prevent global warming concerns producers and  consumers,  but also every living person whose life conditions will be severely damaged by climate change.  . 

 

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Re: Re:

By Wetzel, Tom at Jul 23, 2009 15:00 PM

Michael,

Maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't say that it is only as "consumers" that people negottiate with worker self-management organizations. In fact I said just the opposite. I said that the organized population are stewards of the environmental commons. Unlike Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel, I do not refer to the bodies doing the negotiating with workers as "consumer councils"...precisely for the reasons you cite here. I said that the neighborhood assemblies, regional congresses of delegates, etc are the public governance power as well as stewards of the ecological commons and are responsible for public goods planning. Defense of the environmental commons is part of that. Through common ownership of the land, water, air etc the organized population can prevent itself being polluted on. Thus they would have the right to ban some substance being produced or forms of emissions...including the risks of being radiated from nuclear power plants. So, yes, that doesn't have to be negotiated.

But it's a mistake to simply say that the community through this sort of democracy would decide on what techniques are used. It's not just a question of "implementation" but of how prices for inputs and outputs are determined. The economic structure should be one that creates prices that incorporate a rational assessment of environmental costs. The autonomy and self-management of tthe workers is protected when it's a question of them rationally responding to prices which require them to incorporate these costs in their decision-making. Merely saying the communty "decides" things doesn't tell us how such rational cost calculations are arrived at.

And the community needs to know the costs in order to make rational plans. Thus through a process of negotiation with the production organizations, the community may learn of the costs of its initial planning proposals and this may lead them to change their plans. They need that input and this can only come from negotiation as far as I can see.

We may not be able to ban a particular pollutant at this time because we don't have the technology to do without it. But by forcing the production organizations to assume the environmental costs, this can provide an incentive for them to develop new techniques. Thus it seems to me it should be the responsibility of the worker organizations to develop the technologies, and should not be the responsibility of the society to immpose these on workers. In the case of nuclear power, it's the risks and potential damage to the population that they have the right to ban. But it doesn't follow from this that; they need to have the power to impose or decide on technology.

I describe this more fully in my reply to your essay at:

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/22060

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Re: Re: Re:

By Lowy, Michael at Jul 24, 2009 06:03 AM

This is an interesting discussion !  Perhaps our main disagreement has to do with my conviction that the most important environmental issues cannot be dealt by a "rational assessment of costs".  Let me give one exemple :  the issue of global warming,  now on the foremost rank on present  environmental dangers,  represents a risk for the survival of human life - or human civilisation -  on this planet.  What is the cost,  or the price of this danger ?  I don't think this can me measured and quantified in purely economic terms...So,  for instance,  if a post-capitalist society discovers that  carbon-fueled electrical facilites are one of the most important sources of CO2 emissions,  it will not just "force the production organization to assume the environmental costs" - which are beyond economic calculation -  but will decide,  democratically,  to just       just discontinue such facilities.  

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A Recipe For Totalitarianism?

By Ward, Peter at Jul 20, 2009 22:19 PM

Obviously a productivist society is an absurd an irrational one. However the threat we face comes primarily from lack democracy; i.e., lack of control over the economic and political actions we are subject to. Productivism, if it really exists at all, is an artifact of a particular mode of reactionary society (the one to which Marx happened to acquainted but not necessary the only one)—the primary problem remains even in a materially minimalist ascetic society as well as, potentially, one that looks after the environment. I think therefore the focus has to be: figure out how to bring relevant decisions under our control. The present proposal assumes Democratic Will favors taking action toward preventing man-made environmental catastrophes—however, it may be most people find the costs too high and would rather leave things alone (I doubt this, but it is still a logical possibility). In this case, as much as one hates the decision one has to either to except it or advocate some form of undemocratic social arrangement. Part of the reason, I suspect, reactionary regimes survive is the fact we all imagine Utopia as being a world in which one's own will is implemented globally whereas a liberated society would in fact have to be one where one would have to give up even the theoretical possibility of having Big Brother tell others to live the way one wants them to.

Finally, I think the proposal fails in two respects: by assuming an incidental problem, productivism, is *the* problem and by the implicit assumption the author's opinions ought to be globally enforced regardless of democratic assent. And I think if this or kindred proposal was seriously pursued the result would in fact be some approximation of totalitarianism, even if of an environmentally friendly kind.

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Re: A Recipe For Totalitarianism?

By Lowy, Michael at Jul 23, 2009 08:39 AM

   As Peter Ward aknowledges,  "the present proposal assumes Democratic Will favors taking action" in defense of the environment.  This dosn't square well with the accusation that "the implicit assumption" of the paper is that  "the authors' opinions ought to be globally enforced"...In fact,  my view is based on a wager on common people's rationality;  I also emphasize that people can make mistakes,  but Big Brothers make much worse ones.

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Re: No limits on knowledge

By Polson, Rufus at Jul 19, 2009 20:56 PM

I think that Mr. Albert's point, the main article and Mr. Davidson's point can be complementary.

It seems to me that often direct, local popular control results in better policies for the environment.  This isn't always true, but the counterexamples are generally about powerful perverse incentives dumped on the locals by the system.  So for instance, the people in logging communities generally like the forests, but because the system mandates that the only outfits allowed to do forestry are transnational corporations interested in maximizing extraction (and generally minimizing local processing), the people in those communities feel there's no way they can have jobs except by unsustainable deforestation.

And it seems to me that direct people's control over production will tend to lead to better quality of life per unit produced.  I mean, nobody wants a toaster that goes on the fritz in three years.  But planned obsolescence never went away; it's in the interests of corporations to make things with as shoddy quality, as little durability, as they can get away with, both because it's cheaper and so they can sell the same thing again.  Actual people, especially if they're not being subjected to tidal waves of advertising and other demand-creation techniques, would by and large rather just get what they need once and forget about it.  If they had their say, production could be reduced considerably even for similar levels of stuff ownership.  For instance, my waffle iron originally belonged to my grandmother.  It makes great waffles, and it still works fine.  Could I get a waffle iron that durable now that production has become more sophisticated?  I could not.  The modern ones mostly make cruddy waffles, too.  In the time my family has had that waffle iron, other families have probably gone through at least five on average and been less satisfied with their waffles.  Everyone I make waffles for would like to get their hands on a waffle iron like that.  They can't; we are not going to see waffle irons like that mass marketed again under our system.  But a system under direct popular control would make waffle irons like that--to have better waffles, to have something durable rather than something unreliable, to help the environment, and to save labour (why make something five times when you can make it once with a bit more care?  Only if income depends on endless production).

Ideally, an environmentally conscious public would try to reduce their demand for endless stuff as well.  But even in the absence of that, the results of popular control would be more environmentally friendly than capitalism, which has to keep on making and selling *more* stuff whether the stuff meets any real needs or not.

I am a bit skeptical of "knowledge" as a major component of an economy in its own right--at least in the sort of abstract, idealized way a lot of people talk about it.  Knowledge isn't economic until it's used to produce something.  To the extent that knowledge becomes part of an economy it's subject to all the same sorts of questions you ask about any other resource or commodity:  Who produces it?  Who owns it?  Who controls it?  Is anything useful being done with it?  And like other things, I think knowledge in an economy will be at its most useful if its production and control are both popular and broad-based.  Priesthoods can produce knowledge but what they do with it is of reduced usefulness at best.

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Re: No limits on knowledge

By Albert, Michael at Jul 19, 2009 08:02 AM

Michael,

I of course agree with the desire for ecological sanity, etc. But I am troubled by one point and have a query about another.

The first somewhat troubling matter, perhaps only a result of considerations of length, is that while you critique prior post capitalist efforts for having been abysmal regarding ecology - which they certainly were - you don't mention what seems if anything even more obvious - and certainly highly related - which is that they were abysmal regarding pretty much everything else - not just state power, but class relations, etc. I imagine you agree - but isn't this at the very least as central as bad ecological choices?

And then, when I think about these matters I distinguish between policies a future society might have - for example, no nukes, or laws about treatment of some species, and so on - and outcomes of choices such as, say, the rate of investment, the length of workdays, etc. - and institutional structures that facilitate, or obstruct, various choices.

The core institutions seem to me to be what we, in thinking about vision, have to focus on. But I am not sure, reading this, if you have in mind actual institutions that would allow, cause, and even virtually compel a future economy to be ecologically wise. 

For example, I think you feel that both markets and central planning propel ecological horrors - which is certainly true, intrinsically. But what is to take their place? I like what is called participatory planning, and I wonder your reaction...

 

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Re:

By Lowy, Michael at Jul 23, 2009 09:10 AM

Dear Michael,

           I entirely agree with you that the Soviet experience failed in many respecdts,  not only in relation to the environment;  if I emphasized this aspect is because of the the topic of the essay  (ecosocialism).  In my view,  the Soviet experiment failed to because it lacked two basic components of the socialist project :  freedom and democracy.          As for the  institutions of ecosocialist democratic planning ;  well I do not have a precise blueprint of it but only some general principles :  a process of democratic debate,  on the local,  regional,  national and continental levels (hopefully on day international),  combining direct democracy and the election of delegates. Through tis process people will decide what to produce,  using which forms of energy,  how to reorganize transport,  how many hours of weekly work, etc.   The main decisions would be taken directly by the concerned people,  and the delegates would take care of the details and the planned  implementation of the decisions.  This democratic process would not involve only producers and consumers,  but everybody;  as Marx once worte,  socialism is "the free association of human beings".

         Would this "compel a future economy to be ecologically wise" ?  I think that,  once people are liberated of commodity fetichism,  there is a reasonable chance that they will choose  ecologically  wise solutions.  As I wrote above,  there is no absolute guarantee,  but a wager on people's rationality and on democracy....

   You ask me about my opinion on participatory economy.   I think it  has many common features with the one here proposed -  eco-socialist planning – such as :  opposition to the capitalist market and to bureaucratic planning,   a reliance on self organisation,   anti-authoritarianism.  I think however it doesn't t take sufficiently into account the ecological imperatives. 

         The main problem  of parecon,  in my view,  is that it is based on  a sort of negotiation between producers and consumers on the issue of prices,  inputs and outputs,   supply and demand.   For instance,  the branch   worker’s council of the car producing industry  would meet with the council of consumers to discuss prices  and to adapt supply to demand.   What this leaves out is precisely what constitutes the main issue of ecosocialist planning :   a reorganization of the transport system,  radically reducing the place of the private car.  Since ecosocialism requires entire branches of  industry to disappear  -  nuclear plants,  for instance  -  and the massive  investment in small or almost non-existent branches  (e.g. solar energy)  how can this be dealt by “cooperative negotiations” between the existing units of production and consumer councils on  “inputs”  and  “indicative prices”  ?   

                   

 

 

 

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Lowy and Parecon...

By Albert, Michael at Jul 23, 2009 13:52 PM

> The main problem of parecon, in my view, is that it is based on a sort of negotiation between producers and consumers on the issue of prices, inputs and outputs,  supply and demand.

Producers and consumers in a parecon are not negotiating prices, but rather, activities, really. As a consumer I am proposing what I want to have and to do...including new options and possibilities as well as distribution of old ones - and as a producer I am proposing what I am willing to do - in the way of labor, including, again, new options and possibilities, investments, etc. Producers and consumers are negotiating to bring the production and consumption sides of actors desires into overall accord. This involves valuations, yes - of course, but we aren't negotiating the valuations...

> For instance, the branch worker's council of the car producing industry would meet with the council of consumers to discuss prices and to adapt supply to demand.

Not in parecon. And honestly, not in any system that is remotely workable. Think what it means to say the workers of the auto industry are going to meet with the millions upon millions of people who will receive autos. Impossible, and in no sense desirable, in any case, since it implies you would have to meet with the producers of everything you might want to consume.

On the other hand, that the actions of the auto workers and auto consumers be brought into accord regarding inputs and outputs, including investment for new possibilities - taking into account, as well, the ramifications throughout the whole economy - is necessary, of course. What participatory planning claims to accomplish is providing a means to do this that is (a) self managing, (b) consistent with classlessness, and (c) takes into account true social and ecological costs and benefits.

> What this leaves out is precisely what constitutes the main issue of ecosocialist planning :  a reorganization of the transport system, radically reducing the place of the private car.

I am not sure what picture you have of parecon and participatory planning, and where it came from - I hope it is not due to my faulty presentation though I fear that may be the case - but in fact parecon has a tremendous pressure built in - assuming people are remotely as we think, both to eliminate needless and destructive byproducts and to generate fulfilling output without waste, including continually reassessing modes, methods, and technologies and investing accordingly. If it ignored or ruled out or left out investment, I agree that would be a massive problem for many reasons.

> Since ecosocialism requires entire branches of industry to disappear - nuclear plants, for instance - and the massive investment in small or almost non-existent branches (e.g. solar energy) how can this be dealt by "cooperative negotiations" between the existing units of production and consumer councils on "inputs" and "indicative prices" ?

The consumers want clean air, a stable ecology, their children to live, etc. The producers do too. Among other things. So there are proposals to invest...

A place where we disagree, however, may be us deciding what future people ought to do. Yes, I think many industries should/will disappear - but that is not the key choice for us. For us, the problem is attaining structures that let people - hopefully including us - decide in a self managing way new economic directions. What to do with the knowledge and freedom they will have - but we don't have - is a future issue. This means we have to be establishing institutions that put power in the hands of workers and consumers, that deliver full and comprehensive information about choices, and that don't bias outcomes.

You are certainly right if all that a parecon could do is work with existing industries apportioning existing outputs - it would be a sorry proposal. But that is certainly not the case. 

 

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Re: Lowy and Parecon...

By Lowy, Michael at Jul 24, 2009 06:18 AM

  I entirely agree with you that it is not for to decide  "what future people ought to do".  But we may have our opinions on it :  for instance,  you think -  and so do I -  that a future society won't nead nuclear weapons.  But of course,  it is the future people that will decide to close or not the nuclear arms facilities -  the whole people,  not only the  producers (of nuclear arms)  or the consumers (?).   Of course the people are composed of workers and consumers,  but some key democratic decisions may be motivated by general social or ecological reasons,  which cannot be reduced to issues of "costs and benefits",  since they concern life and death issues.

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Re: Re: Lowy and Parecon...

By Albert, Michael at Jul 24, 2009 07:48 AM

I am sorry to go on at some length this time - but I want to ensure that we aren't talking past one another...

We agree the future is for people of the future. But that means, I hope, that we also then agree we need institutions in the future that convey to people the information and the appropriate level of say, for making those decisions. Do you agree with the idea that people should have self managing say - as much as possible? Each impacting decisions in proportion as they are affected by them? And do we agree that the economy, for example, needs to convey information enabling assessment of full social and environmental costs and benefits of the production and consumption of proposed outputs? These are the aims, and I think the accomplishments, of participatory planning.

We are using the word consumers, differently, I think, and it is making for some confusion. Everyone in society is a consumer of elements of the social product, directly, such as when I use my computer or drive in my car - and of the social product writ large, as well, such as when I breathe pollution or, even more, when there is less computer innovation than I might prefer because, instead, there is a lot of military expenditure. We all are affected by every economic choice - that is - some more than others, to be sure. So we all should impact, to some extent, often very little, sometimes a lot, every economic choice.

Regarding nukes, of course everyone should have a say., and all consumers pretty much the same say as all others - except in cases where some live nearer reactors, etc. Resources, time, energy, going to nukes isn't going elsewhere - and that affects us all. So does the dangers associated with nukes, and their by products.

Or take cars. The usual usage is that the consumer of a car is just the person buying it. That is horribly destructive of comprehension, however, if we are to have a just society. Cars pollute, and we all are affected - not solely the buyer and seller - so we are all impacted - so we all have some say. This is what participatory planning accomplishes, by apportioning self managing say..

When you say, "Of course the people are composed of workers and consumers,  but some key democratic decisions may be motivated by general social or ecological reasons,  which cannot be reduced to issues of "costs and benefits",  since they concern life and death issues." I have two replies.

The first is, of course not everything is economics. A Parecon isn't about everything, it is the economy. There is also a legal system, kinship system, culture, etc.

But second, even just attending to the economy, life and death is always operative. For example, if we put all our resources into cancer research, we may cure it sooner - and some people, maybe even you and I, won't die of it. On the other hand, we will impoverish and even starve billions. Thus life and death, not just lesser matters, are always involved in economic and social choices. If we produce more coal, more people die of black lung, as well as there being more climate problems, and on the other side, maybe some people get some cheaper electricity - as well some profiting, etc. And so on.

A good economy isn't going to solve one dynamic at the expense of ignoring the rest, or worse, getting the rest wrong. Thus, participatory planning, and parecon, operating within a participatory society, has to address ecology, to be sure - both the economic and extraeconomic aspects, but it also has to address the situation of people at work, in their homes, in interactions, etc. etc.

I suspect we agree. I think perhaps while you are more attuned to the intricacies and complexities of ecology and so use terms bearing on it that I sometimes wonder about - the reverse happens re economy.

Consumers councils, as a term, for example, may be confusing you. You are a consumer, individually. If you have family, say, that to consumes, collectively, and is a small cnosumer council. Likewise you neighborhood, perhaps town, country, city, state, country. These are levels at which consumption - meaning feeling - either positively or negatively - the impact of economic choices by people other than those literally producing the outcomes - such as, say, feeling the pollution of cars not just you driving one, occurs.

They are not different in population than geographic assemblies for political purposes - I think - but, as consumer councils, they are, in a parsoc, addressing the economic choices whereas if operating as political assemblies, they are addressing matters of legislation, jurisdiction, etc. - which could also affect economics, to be sure.

 

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Re: Re: Re: Lowy and Parecon...

By Lowy, Michael at Jul 27, 2009 13:38 PM

There is a lot on which we agree,  as you correctly suspected.  Maybe the difference is that for me -  and that is the way I understand Marxism -  there is no way to separate economy from ecology,  politics,  culture, health,  etc.  These are all dialectically connected,  and one may decide on economic issues for political or ecological reasons.  So,  rather than producers and consumers meeting separately to decide on economic issues,  I think of the people deciding,  after a democratic debate,  on all issues that concern their life.  They may decide,  for instance,  to discontinue coal-fueled electrical unities even if it means that electricity will become more expensive.  ?This is a decision that is at the same time economical,  ecological and political. and it must be taken by everybody,  since the whole population is concerned.   But perhaps we agree on this,  since you mention that political decisions affect economics (and vice-versa,  I would add).

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Lowy and Parecon...

By Albert, Michael at Jul 28, 2009 08:00 AM

I don't think our differences, whatever they might be, involve matters of the connection between economics and other spheres of social life, whether polity, or kinship, or culture, or ecology, etc.

Of course, how a society organizes production, consumption, and allocation, afrects, as but one example, its culture or families, but the reverse is also true. And sometimes we focus our attention on one part, or another, even as we also realize that ultimately it is one big system, so to speak...

When the Venezuelans, right now, are talking about family policies of course they must consider, as well, the interface of what they have in mind for the economy, or culture, or vice versa - we agree.

But when you say - "So,  rather than producers and consumers meeting separately to decide on economic issues,  I think of the people deciding,  after a democratic debate,  on all issues that concern their life," to me the formulation isn't operational.

Surely there are many things that concern our lives - health, education, ecology, families, workplaces, and on and on. It can't be that whole populations, millions, or even thousands, gather and talk about every side of life simultaneously and together decide all matters. In some sense that is the ideal - because all matters affect the context of other matters, yes, and so in fact every decision about anything affects pretty much everyone, albeit perhaps only very very slightly. But in reality, we instead need means for people to have at their disposal information they need, to have time for decisions they must make, to have means to bounce these decisions off others and adapt all in light of new evidence, and so on.

In a participatory or 21st century socialist or whatever we call it - society - of course there need to be means for the population to legislate and adjudicate, etc., in the political branch of life. But the idea that the whole population will simply meet and do it - for eery issue that arises - is just as obviously impossible. So, we have to conceive means by which people can spend appropriate amounts of their valuable time, arrive at excellent choices, adapt them as need be, and yet have something very close to self managing say. The same holds for the economy. We can't have everyone discuss the work pattern and load inside every workplace, yet each of those decisions does, in fact, affect everyone. So we need a broad mechanism that allows people to impact the decisions while using their time highly sensibly...

To tell people we are trying to communicate with that the population will do this or it will do that is nice in sentiment - but most people will say, oh, really, that's what I learned in school we have now - and it is horrible. How would you do things differently? So the issue is, answering that...what institutions will deliver this self managing say, sensibly...

When you say, "They may decide,  for instance,  to discontinue coal-fueled electrical utilities even if it means that electricity will become more expensive. This is a decision that is at the same time economical,  ecological and political. and it must be taken by everybody,  since the whole population is concerned.   But perhaps we agree on this,  since you mention that political decisions affect economics (and vice-versa,  I would add).

Yes, we agree on the idea that many factors, and I think many more, are involved, and that people affected need to have a proportionate self managing say - what we disagree about is that saying that constitutes a vision, something able to overcome cynicism, on the one hand, and to inform strategy, on the other hand. It is a kind of broad aspiration - but a vision entails, to be remotely convincing, a conception of how the aim is realized institutionally.

So, yes, the public that is affected participates in the decision about the direction of investment in energy, etc. But via what structures - parecon proposes what it calls participatory planning - plus, in a participatory society, also a polity that may make some relevant laws, etc.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Lowy and Parecon...

By Leask, Bernard at Jul 27, 2009 20:14 PM

First, I would like to thank all who have participated in what is a vital discussion for those interested in formulating visionary ideas about the institutions that might one day guide a socially and environmentally just and free society. 

To their credit, Albert and Hahnel have emphasized that both quantitative and qualitiative information about the social costs and benefits of economic activities are vital and valid tools for participatory decision-making.

It seems to me that when it comes to making decisions about the kind of subject matter that Michael Lowy raises, such as decisions about which (heterogenous) mix of energy technologies and systems that our interdependant economy should prioritize (and conversely which technologies and systems should be de-prioritized) that more generally concern decisions about broad patterns of social investment, tend to, in large part because of the inherent uncertainty of the undertaking, shift the burden more to the kinds of practices of democracy based upon the selection of plan variants by accountable and recallable representatives receiving input from below than by the kind of more direct forms of autonomous proposal formation that take place at the level of production units. It also seems to me that because of the inherent uncertainties involved with plans encompossing future "unknoweable" circumstances, while empirical data about social costs and benefits may be of use as a tool the burden increasingly shifts towards qualitative presentation in a vitalized public sphere. Two of the most important reasons that this is so pertain to the exercise of the precautionary principle concerning environmental impacts and the assurance of intergenerational equity consistent with our values. 

It is noteable that in his discussion of "Protecting the Environment in Annual Plans" in "Economic Justice and Democracy" Robin Hahnel essentially runs up against the limits of participatory economic institutions in realizing that such a complex of institutions can possibly make intergenerational mistakes concerning the environment and that therefore in order to ensure the prosperity of future generations that depend upon environmental preservation a strong and active environmental movement is necessary.  Hahnel concludes that  "a participatory economy provides no guarantee that people will treat the environment wisely, which is to say it does not make the environmental movement obsolete." Unfortunatley he does not elaborate on the best ways in which the indispensible environmental movmenent should act in a framework of a particpatory society: should it be in the polity or in the economy or both? www.greens.org/s-r/34/34-18.html

It is pretty much impossible to generate reliable quantitative estimates about impacts on future generations and it would seem that the "precautionary principle" well-known to the environmental movement would be the wisest guide for some important decisions. In the ABC's of Political Economy Hahnel admiited as much, "perhaps it wise to adopt a principle that the environmental movement has made popular: the precautionary principle. According to the precautionary principle, when there is fundametal uncertainty with very large downside potential, it best to take proactive action. In  this case it is by no means clear that the concepts of efficiency, equity and variety include everything we need to consider regarding relations between the human economy and the natural environment. (ABC's, 43)

Likewise fellow democratic planners Pat Devine, Fikret Adamn and Begum Ozkaynak argue that ecological problems often confront uncertainty with regards to factual information and thus put greater onus on collective democratic deliberations and decison-making processes:

"  it is recognized that many environmental and ecological problems are so acute that action is needed now, before there is time for further scientific research to reduce significantly the uncertainty associated with them. Indeed the ecosystems involved are so complex that there is always likely to be uncertainty in relation to any proposed course of action." rebellionsucks.googlepages.com/ncod

Hopefully these are foods for thought that constitute a worthy contribution. They have many implications, especially for long-term planning and its relation to shorter-term planning processes which I do not have the time to get into now. I will suggest that Pareconists have not always been clear that planning in Parecon is necessarily sequential and it seems more difficult to revise by iteration plans based on broad-based social priorities entailing increasing levels of interdepedence and temporal dynamics (this suggests to me that broad-based plans need to have a generality and should likewise be wary of over-stepping appropriate generality by imposing too many constraints).

   

 

 

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