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Facebook is Diseased, ZSocial as Medicine?




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In the sixties we had a slogan: "You are either part of the problem or part of the solution." Our slogans didn't always attain subtlety or nuance, and this one’s heavy handedness had ill effects. Someone disagrees with you. Label her a part of the problem. Then pay her no respect. Do it repeatedly. “Paranoia strikes deep...”

 

Another slogan has popped up recently that makes clear that being “part of the problem” isn't just diverging from you, me, or whomever, but is far more substantial. A recent Greek banner reads, "You have the disease, we have the solution - revolution."

 

What is the disease the Greek banner artists had in mind? I believe it was subservience to and indeed active support for the whole melange of institutional relations associated with capitalism, authoritarianism, patriarchy, and racism. And while one could imagine applying the term “disease,” meant that way, to individuals - I think the Greeks had in mind whole groups and especially institutions being sick.

 

So I say Facebook has the disease. What can I possibly mean by such a claim? Facebook? The modern day activist’s favorite weapon? 

 

Well, I mean this. Facebook - and Google, Twitter, etc. - are massive corporate media machines driven by the dictates of accruing profit and maintaining the conditions of accruing profit. They care about sociality, information, truth, or justice only as means to profit and power.

 

When someone on the left says a bank has the "disease," or a mortgage company, pharmaceutical company, electric company, Walmart, Amazon, or the New York Times, everyone else on the left pretty much says, okay, what else is new? Of course they have the disease. Medicate! Operate!

 

We put our money in a bank, hold a mortgage with a provider, get electricity from a utility, buy a chair or food from Walmart, buy a book from Amazon or a newspaper from the New York Times - dealing with disease each time - because we live in a world where disconnecting from all corporations would be suicidal. In  our society critical and desirable production and consumption are overwhelmingly mediated by corporations. We relate or we die.

 

And even when the institutions we transact with are public, they are often class divided and operate on behalf of surplus and power in very nearly the same ways as Bank of America or the New York Times. National Public Radio, for example, is very far from a cooperative, classless, entity. 

 

So we bank, we take medicine, we buy books, because we must, or, at any rate, to forego these options would spite ourselves and our agendas - at least as the world currently exists.

 

But in the midst of this essential compromising, what we don't do, even though transacting with corporations literally keeps us alive and sometimes informs and fulfills us - and even as, each time, dealing with them also generates profits for the rich and puts one more little brick in the wall of legitimation of the system - is to celebrate the corporations we relate to as if they care about us, much less about social justice. 

 

I get medicine produced by a pharmaceutical. It gives me sight. Yet I don't paste images of its corporate logo on my shirt or medicine cabinet. I know it doesn’t care about my sight. It cares about my coins, spent to get its product. 

 

I get food from agribusiness. I don't carry an umbrella billboard for agribusiness or put its logo on my refrigerator, even though I would very likely starve without its product. It doesn’t care about my possible starvation or the actual starvation of millions. It cares about profit making. 

 

I get information from the New York Times. I do not proclaim it a friend of humanity, even if sometimes I can use it for humanity. The New York Times doesn’t care about humanity. It cares about power and capital. It affronts humanity, curtails humanity, abides and contributes to injustice humanity endures - routinely.

 

So why the hell are so many people - including a great many very serious, very well informed, very committed leftists, so uncritical of and even so supportive of diverse information institutions and, in particular, of Facebook, Google, and Twitter? Include Apple, in the second tier, whose products I quite like and use, along with Microsoft, Sony, Yahoo, and any other corporation anyone on the left treats with kid gloves.

 

Maybe some leftists think to be critical of internet institutions implies they should not use those institutions at all? But why would they think that about Facebook, Tweeter, and Google and not about Bank of America, Merck and Co., and the New York Times? We rail at the latter, but when necessary we of course use them. Why not treat the information institutions similarly? Rail at them, and when advisable, use them?

 

In other essays, I have described the ills associated with the structures and practices of these giant corporate information institutions, commenting particularly on the ways they nuggetize information, diminish attention spans, devalue friendships, sell access to users to advertisers, manipulate searches, and reveal information about our habits and relationships to police and governments. 

 

I suspect that at most a millimeter below the surface, no one on the left would doubt any of that. After all, to understand corporate logic is a significant part of what it means to understand the world around us. However, if you do doubt these claims about Facebook et. al., take a look at Facing Facebook and the InternetInternet Worries, and Facebook Versus Civilization and at additional references you can find in those essays, among other places.

 

The thing is, even if all leftists do such investigating and come away convinced of the disease ridden character of mainstream social networking, searching, etc., still, my experiences suggest many and perhaps most will nonetheless pause at vocal rejection much less at serious analysis and action aimed at Facebook, Google, and Twitter. I would sincerely like to understand why that is. It just doesn't compute for me. 

 

I can certainly see using these institutions - with the possible exception of Twitter which seems literally death ridden, at least to me - for very specific purposes. For example, I quite often use Google for searching online - though I admit that nowadays when I do so I push myself to account for the systemically filtered delivery of personalized search results Google provides me. 

 

Or consider Facebook. I can certainly see using it to find folks you have long been dissociated from or even to stay connected with  folks you can't engage with by other means because of their priorities, as well as for delivering good information to wide audiences who would otherwise not have read it, though I think Facebook postings accomplish this last outcome much less often than people claim.

 

However, I can't see ever even in passing thinking that a "friend" is someone on your list of Facebook friends - much less accepting the degrading idea that being on such a list is, in fact, the definition of being one’s friend. 

 

I also cannot see allowing oneself to become accommodated to nuggetized communications whether it happens due to habits that arise from frequent actions online, or by preferences imposed for efficiency’s sake. This, too, degrades human potentials. And I can’t see noticing the steady decline in attention span one typically undergoes with extensive use of these venues and not at least disciplining oneself to pay longer attention to deeper materials, to offset the trend.

 

Similarly, I cannot see allowing oneself to consider highly targeted and intrusive advertisements benign, nor can I see acting as though mass scale profit seeking and power brokering are well motivated priorities.  

 

A musician rightly eager for Z content to reach the widest possible readership recently wrote me asking how come on ZNet there aren't ubiquitous icons on every page allowing people to very easily zip off articles and other content to Facebook, so they can then go viral? 

 

I ignored that in my view clicking a little button doesn’t, in fact, typically generate a useful information virus, and I ignored that for most Facebook users - not the highly left users, I hope, but most - the impact of Facebook’s processes and biases on their habits is to severely diminish the probability that they will read anything beyond a few sentences, whether a link is conveyed to them or not, and I ignored that a site wanting, reasonably, to allow users to share might achieve without implying by ever present logos from a few main corporations that those corporations equal being social. Instead of harping on those disagreements, I wrote back to the musician accepting the premise that clicking such links could and often would engender otherwise unlikely dispersal of ideas. I then answered his why query essentially this way...

 

We believe Facebook and other such sites are far more a problem than a solution. Yes, it is possible to benefit in some ways from using gigantic corporate operations that are motivated by profit seeking and designed in ways that on balance cripple communications - even while people mistakenly think those sights are in sum enhancing communications - but that is different from anointing such institutions as highly worthy vehicles for serious and especially leftist social networking. We can also benefit from having a bank account, say, but we don't celebrate banks and put up what amounts to ubiquitous ads and testimonials on their behalf.

 

So what can we do instead? Well, we at Z are holding out for, and trying to build, something better than making the best of vile corporate venues. Once ZSocial is in place, quite soon now, we will make it very easy to send our content to the large networking sites because once ZSocial is in place, by doing so we will not be saying, okay, Facebook is the best means of social interaction online and the way we should all do it. No, instead we will be saying, let's use those quite vile institutions including Facebook like we use banks or pharmaceutical companies - as a horribly restricted and constraining option for some critical tasks such as reaching out to wide and not yet highly politicized audiences. But for serious social interactions with leftists, let's develop and use our own tools that don't commercialize, nuggetize, manipulate, and sell us out, but are instead designed and maintained with our priorities paramount.

 

Yes, in the meantime Z suffers some narrowing of outreach, but in the long run, hopefully everyone operating in the name of social justice rather than profit and power will benefit.

 

Of course, not everyone is in position to try to build or even to advocate an alternative to Facebook for the left. But those who are in such a position ought to be doing so, it seems to me. So Z is trying to build “FaceLeft,” ZSocial, not to revere and celebrate Facebook. 

 

And as users rather than providers, shouldn’t we also be hoping FaceLeft like efforts succeed so that we leftists can use our own institutions for our internal discussions, debates, scheduling, and exploring, and use large commercial institutions only when doing so makes good sense, such as in reaching out to new audiences to bring them, in time, to our non corporate institutions and to reach them with our non corporate information, or such as finding old friends or keeping ties with those who won’t operate other than on Facebook. And even then, shouldn’t we do so only critically, with insight, and without adding to Facebook’s aura as a neutral or even beneficent abettor of justice?

 

That’s the thinking behind ZSocial, at any rate, which is coming very soon to the internet connection devices you prefer. We intend ZSocial to honor privacy and to reject commercialism and of course ads. We will not have ZSocial insidiously filter your range of communications. We will not have ZSocial bias toward nuggets. We will have ZSocial grow and alter as left needs dictate. We hope you will relate to it.

 

The disease is capitalism, patriarchy, racism, and authoritarianism. Would that we could have a revolution replacing all that disease with truly solidaritous, diverse, equitable, peaceful, ecologically green, self managing social relations, NOW. Alas, it will take time. Meanwhile, we can at least understand the disease to more safely navigate its corridors. And we can at least build some structures of our own, within the disease ridden landscapes surrounding us, that treat ourselves and others better, that provide a model to aspire to, and that inform our understandings and enrich our programs and actions.

 

Facebook serves us, used carefully, in some ways - as does Google, and maybe even Twitter, Apple, Sony, and so on. But we should be cautious and discerning when relating to these. And we should have our own alternatives, as best we can, showing how internet communications really ought to be implemented - and meeting our needs and potentials better then commercial ventures. Hopefully ZSocial will be a step in that direction.

  

666227

Twitter is evil

By Kreider, Aaron at Aug 21, 2011 04:51 AM

But due to Twitter (which only use sporadically), I realized several days before Jan 25th that it looked like North Africa and the Middle East could all explode in revolution.  And then following Twitter + Al Jazeera during the Egyptian movement was the most inspired I've been in many years!

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Re: Twitter is evil

By Albert, Michael at Aug 21, 2011 12:36 PM

I and many other people learn important things, at times, from the New York Times - that doesn't in the slightest negate a critique of the NYT. Same holds here. But in this case, the issue is not simply content - but, for Twitter - what a name - also the habits and practices that regularly using it induce. 

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Person

speaking of open source...

By Solomon, James at Aug 12, 2011 05:44 AM

Is there a ZSocial developer site?  It would make sense to apply open source principles to its development, as you'll generally end up with more robust features and better security.

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Re: speaking of open source...

By Kreider, Aaron at Aug 21, 2011 04:44 AM

And whether or not you do open source, it'd be nice to encourage user participation in testing it.  I previously gave some feedback to ZSpace on usability issues and would like to do so again.  

I think you could facilitate a group of 10-50 people who would give you a lot of excellent advice that could help catch bugs/mistakes while they are easiest to fix.   This could be done with a forum or email list.  (Or possibly a ticket system.)

You could occasionally poll this group for advice when you are unsure about a part of the project.

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Person

Living the alternatives involves costs - material, intellectual and social.

By Reiter, I.N. at Aug 02, 2011 21:30 PM

I´m trying to replace as much corporate offers as possible by better alternatives (or which I based on my limited knowledge perceive as "better") in order to support them. But many people refuse to do so, even if they know the bad effects of relying on corporations products and services.

People could use housing co-ops, they could use co-operative run banks and sustainable energy providers, but there´s only a slow movement into the right direction visible, even when they know these alternatives.

I think there a few reasons for that:

1.) some of these offers cost more than the cheapest offers available.
(organic or fairtrade products, energy providers using 100% renewable energy)
2.) using these offer sometimes involves costs for information and learning, at least in time.
(like using Linux instead of Windows when you want to run Windows based software.)
3.) some offers are similar to corparate ones, but offer less choise. For example flats offered by housing co-operatives.
4.) using alternatives to corporation´s offers generates moral pressure towards others, even when you don´t teach at them. They feel offended, just by the fact that you feel it´s necessary to change your behaviour.
5.) by trying out alternative ways of consumption and production you alienate yourself from others who don´t want to do so. (relates to 4)
6.) especially people who try to make themselves believe that nothing can be done against corporate market dominance feel challenged by those who do question that.

It is clear, that all thes alternatives and co-ops have currently  to compete on the capitalist market and that they have their own flaws, but I prefer using them over making social irresponsible corporations and investment fonds even bigger.

BTW:
There´s an alternative to google, I use it first and only when the results don´t match my needs, I use google. It´s a corporate offer but they seem to tread privacy better: https://eu.ixquick.com/eng/

I never used facebook as I experienced the chats of colleagues and friends who use it as very shallow and basicly consisting of a kind of non-communication for me. However I´m not the type of person who talks about the weather or sports anyway.

Thank you for giving space for opinion and discussion, I´m looking forward for ZSocial and the IOPS-Page.

 



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Re: Living the alternatives involves costs - material, intellectual and social.

By Sfakakis, Manos at Aug 03, 2011 07:17 AM

Hi Reiter,

I do also share such feelings about other people feeling detached at the attempt to find socialy beneficial alternatives. I am also in general agreement with you on the reasons you present. Thus, I regard this as the reality I am faced with and try to built on from there.

Therefore, my best approach is to strengenth my determination in using the alternatives since:

- the best way to advocate is to lead by example
- changes do occur slowly but steadily, there comes a time when the alternative slowly becomes
integrated into the mainstream
- to lower the overblown expectations for sudden and radical change so that I don't feel overwhelmed

I am expecting Zsocial to try it out and hopefully to help me interact with the active community around the world.

I would appeal to the Z staff for a twitter style feed as a future project since that will be very very useful for the dispersion and distribution of information for the active world wide community.

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Re: Living the alternatives involves costs - material, intellectual and social.

By Albert, Michael at Aug 03, 2011 12:37 PM

I basically agree with your formulations, but you seem to go further than I would - which is perfectly reasonable, but I think not a priority...

That is, often, alternative isn't really particularly alternative. It is just smaller, say - but still profit oriented, still the same basic social relations, and so on. So in that case, the only really issue becomes the merits of the product, not so much the process behind it. Sometimes it is a similar industry, but different products. 

Some media, say, is alternative in content - but not so much in structure and relations. Others may be alternative in both. You do the former, because you appreciate and want to support the content. You do the latter, for that reason, but hopefully also because you want to support the different structural and process approach. 

A lot depends on one's broader aims. So - for example - to me using linux instead of windows is fine,  mainly for product, a little for process - but really not a big deal, currently. - because the product is not better content - I often find it worse, sadly - and the process while better in some respects, is very limited in its differences. However, if I thought Linux was a serious radical alternative, that it was really trying to develop a left approach to intellectual production and production generally, to remuneration, etc. then there would be far more reason to relate to it.

So now back to Facebook, say. This is not like buying a car from a corporate producer, or, say, a coop producer. Assuming the latter works, one might want to do it. If the latter was operating with radically improved social relations and making a case they should be generalized, the argument would go way up, and so on. But with Facebook, there are additional factors. Using it for outreach, socializing apolitically, etc., not a big deal, save for the nuggetizing and other negative effects. But using it for left scheduling, debating, exploring, etc., is a big deal - it compromises our internatl communications, gives them to an agent of the state, etc. To then, on top of it, praise Facebook, just makes the dynamics all the more harmful, it seems to me.  Here is an interesting quote to consider...


Once upon a time there was a magnet, and in its close neighborhood lived some steel filings. One day two or three filings felt a sudden desire to go and visit the magnet, and they began to talk of what a pleasant thing it would be to do. Other filings nearby overheard their conversation, and they, too, became infected with the same desire. … "Why not go today?" said some of them; but others were of the opinion that it would be better to wait until tomorrow. Meanwhile, without their having noticed it, they had been involuntarily moving nearer to the magnet, which lay there quite still, apparently taking no heed of them…. Then, at last, …"There is no use waiting. We will go today. We will go now. We will go at once." …Then the magnet smiled—for the steel filings had no doubt at all but that they were paying that visit on their own free will.

Oscar Wilde

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My 2 cents

By Matthews, Robert at Aug 01, 2011 22:57 PM

"The thing is, even if all leftists do such investigating and come away convinced of the disease ridden character of mainstream social networking, searching, etc., still, my experiences suggest many and perhaps most will nonetheless pause at vocal rejection much less at serious analysis and action aimed at Facebook, Google, and Twitter. I would sincerely like to understand why that is. It just doesn't compute for me. "


I think when most people come to the conclusion that something is "diseased" or generally bad for society, they try not to partake in it unless necessary.  What one considers necessary may vary from person to person.  I think Facebook, Twitter, etc are on difficult for most people to consider necessary.  So rather than investigate and be critical of Facebook, there is a tendency to use it without thinking of the consequences.  This is easy to do for several reasons; one it allows you to continue your behavior without guilt.  Secondly, living in a society where you could literally question everything you do from your job, what you buy, how you get around, etc. you can become overwhelmed.  I think most people then focus on things that they feel are important to them and give less impactful things (ie Facebook) a pass.  While this analysis maybe not be accurate it enables them to continue the behavior they enjoy.

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Re: My 2 cents

By Albert, Michael at Aug 01, 2011 23:22 PM

I understand what you are saying, it just doesn't solve my confusion.

There is almost nothing in this society that isn't horrendously alienated. Racial, gender, power, and profit dictates are either front and center, or at least lurking, in the dynamics of virtually all interactions and outcomes. 

I routinely and daily engage in actions and relations that are with vile institutions - banks, newspapers, producers, publishers, shopping outlets, and on and on. 

I certainly get not rejecting everything that is tainted - since that is everything. I also get not beating oneself up. I don't only relate to things that are necessary - I relate to things that are pleasurable, arguably luxuries, as well. I like to kayak. I have no idea, maybe the company that made the one I use also makes tanks. Certainly the car company does, and so on. That is the world we inhabit. 

What it calls for is trying to change it - not boycotting everything to the point of personal starvation and depression.

The critique of Facebook, Twitter, Apple (I use Apple in diverse ways), Microsoft, GM, Stop and Shop, and on and on - and the New York Times - doesn't mean we have to not use them. But the fact that we use them, should not cause us to forget our critique. 

What I don't understand is that for many on the left, using Facebook or Twitter seems to cause them to not be able to say - Facebook and Twitter are vile institutions. The fact that I read the NYT doesn't cause me to hesitate a millisecond in saying it is vile. 

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The Commons

By Dunne, Ross at Jul 31, 2011 23:10 PM

I think it's very important to recognise that there is already a non-corporate, ostensibly a-political alternative movement "out there" in the ethernet, that the internet has always had, indeed that sowed the seeds of the internet. Linux, particularly Ubuntu offers us an easy-to-use free and open alternative. The Creative Commons licence is the solution to corporatism and monopoly. I think it would be wise to collaborate with the open-source community in whatever venture you propose. The open-source movement is not political in terms of left/right but is deeply democratic and therefore in US terms, liberal and left-leaning. One would think there would be ample support for an open-source "Freebook". However, a simply "left" social networking site risks being labeled as marginal and radical and irrelevant. Political facebook is a risk. Freebook less so. It should be a demonstration of democracy rather than a lecture on democracy. All best wishes.

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Re: The Commons

By Albert, Michael at Aug 01, 2011 00:01 AM

In my own experience - perhaps yours is different - open source is not just apolitical. It is very very narrowly focused, foregoing options to actually have serious impact and positions. Sadly. 
And it even takes this stance proudly and militantly. IT is quite sad, I think. And the fact that the people involved are typically, personally, quite well informed, makes it that much sader, and less justifiable.

There is also nothing I have seen that indicates it is deeply democratic, much less favorable to self management - other than to a modest extent on the quite narrow issue of choosing software and altering it.

My efforts - albeit not too extensive - to get open source people to pay serious attention to issues of production and consumption more generally than just software and information, and to matters of social organization as well, have met with stubborn resistance.

As to being left or progressive or humane - I don't see a lot of evidence for that, either, honestly. Again, I may be wrong, if I am please let me know - but the open source community has some pretty formidable resources and numbers - but has it made even modest much less serious efforts on behalf of ANYTHING other than a very narrow agenda? Has it opposed war, or inequality, or repression, and so on? Maybe, but I haven't heard about it. 

I honestly think most people's very positive views of it stem from benefitting a bit - in some cases - and the good press it has gotten in themainstream, which should tell people quite a lot, actually, but opposite to what people seem to deduce. Ubuntu has numerous corporations, I believe, involved, not collectives. They all seek profit - not human well being. They all involved internal class hierarchies. Again, if I am wrong, please let me know.

In any event, a left social networking site will, at its outset and for some time, be marginal - at least in size. It is not meant to be for everyone, but for leftists, though with a very wide range of views and practices. What will determine its worth - and thus how much it grows - will be how well it serves the needs of that constituency and of course its content, etc. 

The internet was born not via an open source movement, but military investment - but that's just a side bar. 

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Re: Re: The Commons

By Krumm, John at Aug 01, 2011 19:32 PM

Hi Michael,

It all sounds promising, and I hope it works out. What would get me to use it regularly is if it became large enough to become engaging in that Facebook way both nationally and locally. I use Facebook for friends and family. Political talk tends to get cut a little short out of courtesy, kind of the Thanksgiving dinner effect, except you have a larger table that never empties. Hard to find a corner of the room to talk to that one relative you shares your ideas.

John

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Re: Re: Re: The Commons

By Albert, Michael at Aug 01, 2011 19:57 PM

IT is a chicken and egg situation - there are certainly more than enough leftists to make it large enough so that there are plenty of people to engage with as allies friends, and others to engage with to learn from or try to convince, etc. etc. - very few people on Facebook relate to more than 100,000, much less 500,000 people on there with substantive content.... he he....

Whether one has enough friends on the new system to socialize with them on it - so to speak - depends, I guess, how good a job one does convincing one's friends that using Facebook to relate to left friends is a horrible choice, given that it prcludes developing a serious alternative, ratifies that facebook is a serious positive entity, and so on.

We will see!!

I don't think this will become really big unless people make it their business to cause it to become really big. And that means pushing it, once it exists, if it is worthy, in lots of venues, really, everywhere online that one engages - whether it is sites like The Nation, etc., or blogs, or Facebook itself.

Can we make ZSocial - Facing Left rather than Face Corporate - the way to go? Again, I guess we will see.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: The Commons

By B, Katie at Aug 01, 2011 21:35 PM

But in response to what is actually in the article you wrote, I agree that ownership is the real problem.  The ideas behind facebook and twitter would be great if they were publicly owned (I love that I can easily see the latest pictures of my new nephew and keep up with my friends who are scattered around the country).  I would love it if we had access to the same tools but without the profit-seeking behavior that affects what I see and where my information ends up.  However, I have right-leaning family members that I don't want to exclude as well as friends who wouldn't want to be associated with leftist groups.  I think focusing on the left kind of misses the point that these tools belong in the public domain rather than in the private domain where they are used against the very public that uses them.  The public domain includes all people, whether you agree with them or not.  If you can't make room for those you disagree with, then what kind of example are you setting?

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Commons

By Albert, Michael at Aug 01, 2011 23:03 PM

Hi Katie....

Ownership is certainly a big problem - the pursuit of profit as the guiding motive. But I wouldn't say it is all of it, or really perhaps even the heart of it. Take Facebook and Twitter and have them publicly owned and it isn't clear how much would change. Their internal business organization would remain. They would be seeking surpluses, not profits, but those would be distributed quite unjustly. The technology, if taken over from what is there, could easily follow the same development path it is now on, keeping the ill effects. 

If you hav a chance, take a look at the earlier articles on these corporations and their practices and let me know what you think.... Most of the critiques would not go away - though some would, I agree!

The idea of ZSocial, again, is not to replace Facebook. They have a gazillion dollars of investment funds - no one on the left anywhere can create a new system, non ideological, that does what you reasonably want for everyone, better than they do it - due to their headstart and user base. 

What we can do is create a social network for social change concerned people - leftists - that doesn't sell you to advertisers, doesn't amass and sell information about you, that doesn't hand over a record of your actions to governments, that doesn't censor you, that doesn't bias the whole apparatus toward quick communications lacking serious substance, etc. , and that does incorporate steadily more tools and features that serve your needs...for scheduling, debate, meeting, sharing information, accessing information, and so on.

Setting up a network for leftists that provides what they need is mo more failing to make room for those who aren't left than setting up a discussion group for physicists that provides what they need is failing to make room for non physicists. It isn't missing the point of a gigantic community - an online tool for all of society, say - it just has a different aim. 

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Re: Re: The Commons

By B, Katie at Aug 01, 2011 21:19 PM

Your thoughts on the open source community are interesting and I think you make some good points, but I don't know if I totally agree with you. 

For starters, I've never really viewed the open source community as an organized group.  What has actually impressed me about the open source community is that there isn't much, if any, organization to speak of (at least not that I'm aware of). That said, I never expected them to have a cause or anything else to advocate.  The open source community is no more than an unorganized group of people who are passionate about technology and want to keep software accessible in the public domain so corporations can never own 100% of it.  If corporations held such a monopoly on software, they wouldn't just control access to those who use it but also those who can learn about it and create it.  As long as we have an open source community, the door is open for anyone who wants to learn about software without getting trapped in debt by the corrupt university system.  Likewise, the door is open for anyone who wants to use publicly available software to accomplish something bigger - you can't blame the creator of the tool if nobody chooses to use it.  At least the tool is available.

Furthermore, it's open source in that anyone, regardless of their views or affiliations, can be a part of it - isn't that the whole point of a public good?  Plus, including all interested people, without turning away some who hold different personal beliefs, has probably played a big part in the movement's success and brought much needed attention to the concept of collaborative, unorganized, owner-less work.   

Finally, to me, the open source movement epitomizes the idea that people can and will accomplish things without being motivated by financial gains.  There is an inherent unselfishness about producing something that is open source and meant to be shared.  The idea itself is revolutionary because it flies in the face of those who want to claim that socialist policies or bossless work places will result in laziness.  The concept alone is powerful and I can understand why those involved with it would want to keep it pure and accessible to all, period.   As long as tools and knowledge remain in the public domain, we are all free to do whatever we want with them.

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Re: Re: Re: The Commons

By Albert, Michael at Aug 01, 2011 23:11 PM

If open source means very little, there is very little reason to relate to it. In fact, however, it actually does have some meaning, and some agenda - bearing on intellectual property, etc., by and large reasonable and even progressive, though very narrow. It is a long discussion, and I am no expert, but one would think it would be a very natural progression from its attitudes about software to attitudes about consumption and production more generally. It isn't/wasn't, sadly. Why it isn't is, I think, not so pleasant... and has to do with the interests of the various institutions and sectors in this community. 

While we agree about bossless work - and equitable remuneration - the idea that open source is against private ownership, or profits, is just not real. There is probably a small subset of the community for whom that is the case, but certainly not the most prominant folks. 

There are some essays on the site about these matters - an I think some interviews, too - you might find them interesting, though I think they are now at least a year or two old. 

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Guevara

Re: Re: The Commons

By Australis, Companero at Aug 02, 2011 13:02 PM

The Free Software and Open Source movements are really quite significant as at least a potential alternative to capitalist modes of production, and given the importance of information technology to modern economies and culture (a point Michael's article makes very clearly) shouldn't be underestimated.

Michael is right though that the problem with FOSS is that for most practitioners, it limits the political aspects of its critique to software.

In fact, if you analyse the position of the 'guru' of the Free Software movement, Richard Stallman, his position is really that of a classical anarchist :- but as Michael correctly points out, _only in the realm of software_:
http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Stallman/philosopher.shtml#Stallman%20as%20the%20founder%20of%20Software%20Anarchism

... and thus, Free Software, while providing an exciting alternative to capitalism in the realm of software production, can also be partly subverted by capitalism because of being limited to this sphere.

For Leftists interested in extending the good aspects of free software & open source (commons-based peer production) to a wider economic base, embedded in a deep (anarchist) perspective, I highly recommend the "Venture Communism manifesto" as worth reading:
http://www.telekommunisten.net/venture-communism

These guys and others are also part of the movement for an "open internet", to prevent increasing corporate control & domination, which is also quite important for those on the Left I think if you can penetrate a bit of technical detail.

Finally:- while I agree with the criticisms of Stallman in the above articles, he is also still making highly salient points about the dangers of corporate centralisation of power on the internet, recently in Der Spiegel:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,775218,00.html

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1

Re: Re: Re: The Commons

By Albert, Michael at Aug 02, 2011 16:48 PM

Are you Australian? 

I felt they were potentially important too - for quite awhile - but after talking with folks, writing about it, debating in some cases, inviting, urging, emailing, etc., seeing the lack of inclination to do anything beyond a narrow path, I pretty much lost hope for them.

Perhaps things have changed...

You can find an interview of Stallman on znet, I believe - not very inspiring, in my view. The thing is, personally, I have a lot of patience for folks not knowing things, etc. - but when you have someone who has tons of information at their disposal, understands things rather well as they coincide with his inclinations, but is oblivious, incomprehending, or just dismissive of everything not immediately up his alley - I begin to become impatient. I think it is not a pretty picture, at that point. 

As far as I know, regarding software production, the free software folks actually have very little to say - they don't talk about the social relations of firms and are quite happy with those of firms selling things like ubuntu, etc. It is really, very limited... being against corporate domination of the internet, for example, is better than not, but not much... If IBM uses open source tools, to make a profit, they celebrate.

I'll check the link in time...thanks!

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Guevara

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Commons

By Australis, Companero at Aug 03, 2011 09:53 AM

> Are you Australian?

Hi Michael - yes, certainly am ;)

I guess the reason I'm personally very involved in the Open Source issue as I work in the IT industry.

A lot of people in IT who do actual programming are actually quite skeptical of managers and hierarchical authority ... thus could be described as somewhat 'libertarian' :- the challenge is to convince them to be left-libertarian rather than right libertarian!

I did find the Stallman article on ZNet with a search, thanks.

I'm also doing research into the use of open source software in urban planning, with the rationale that it should at least open the door to greater transparency & citizen participation. Maybe I can write some blog posts on Z about these issues down the track a bit more.

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1

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Commons

By Albert, Michael at Aug 03, 2011 12:21 PM

> A lot of people in IT who do actual programming are actually quite skeptical of managers and hierarchical authority ... thus could be described as somewhat 'libertarian' :- the challenge is to convince them to be left-libertarian rather than right libertarian!

I agree. Which is why I wrote people, tried to engage, debate, explore, etc. But there really isn't interest, at the level of the gatekeepers of the definition. My guess is if the Open Source project is going to become a serious force for wider change it will be because people in it challenge the narrowness, creating, if you will, a pole of the project that goes way further, and thus opens the debate you suggest, from within. That's what I would do if I was "in there."

> I'm also doing research into the use of open source software in urban planning, with the rationale that it should at least open the door to greater transparency & citizen participation. Maybe I can write some blog posts on Z about these issues down the track a bit more.

Sure. Good luck with the work.

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Person

Excellent Idea!

By Basu, Biplab at Jul 31, 2011 15:42 PM

Thank you Micheal for the great idea. I sincerely hope that the project is launched soon. It could then become a platform for the left groups and individuals all over the world. I am very excited already. With solidarity. Biplab

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1

Re: Excellent Idea!

By Albert, Michael at Jul 31, 2011 16:34 PM

Nice to hear... Thanks.

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Antti

Prospects of ZSocial

By Jauhiainen, Antti at Jul 31, 2011 08:17 AM

Very promising, and I agree with everything you've pointed out. I have exactly the same feeling from using social websites, that one must utilize them grudgingly to achieve certain groups and goals. The system they're feeding and the (anti)social tendencies they're advancing make me feel ferry uncomfortable about them, but use them as it's obvious there is benefits from utilizing them (just as from banks and other examples you gave). I believe ZSocial should and can very well, if it works well and trustworth-ily technically, become an important hub for leftists to discuss "internally" and strengthen our networks as well as debating our strategies together. Stephen's idea of collecting arguments formpromotion is very good, and I think we should organize active campaign through blogs and corporate social media as well. Notify our contacts and press for the benefits of ZSocial, and also argue in its favor in comments in different blogs and so on. Maybe this is something we can plan collectively inside ZSocial once it's open to sustainers?

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1

Re: Prospects of ZSocial

By Albert, Michael at Jul 31, 2011 11:33 AM

This is of course the response we need, once the system is public.

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Stephen_oct_2010

ZSocial promotion

By Roblin, Stephen at Jul 30, 2011 23:57 PM

When it's time to promote ZSocial to the broader activist community, one way of doing so could be to create a mass email that lists five (or ten?) reasons to sign-up for it.   Here the reasons I can think of. I'm sure there are more. . .

Five Reasons to Sign-Up for ZSocial

1. It's not corporate controlled.
2. It won't sell your or your firends personal information to corporattions as targets for ads and other commercial pursuits
3. It won't turn over information about to states and security agencies
4. You will be connected to a growing community of progressive/left activists
5. It's designed (and will evolve) for the purpose of facilitating movement-building, not maximizing profit.


Are there any other reasons?

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1

Re: ZSocial promotion

By Albert, Michael at Jul 31, 2011 11:30 AM

These are manin ones, I agree. We'll see if people have others soon !

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589024

Certainly!

By Petersen, Robert at Jul 30, 2011 21:29 PM

FaceLeft is a great idea, and I'm certain would be received well by all who use Znet, and with promotion, could bring even more people into the Z community.  Yes, social networking sites such as Facebook are diseased, as you correctly point out.  but their success reveals a need for people to reach out to others.  After much consternation I finally broke down and created a Facebook page.  Not because I enjoy Facebook, but it's a great way to keep track of what's going on in the family.  Beyond that, I hate the concept, but signed up anyway.  FaceLeft would be a rousing success, but also keeping in mind that it can't replace real human contact.  Let's face it, this is a new age.  Those of us who came of age in the 60's have a difficult time with the transition.  But I'm getting there.  I say go for it.  Believe me, Znet will grow because of it.    

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661397

ZSocial?

By Phillips, Blair M. at Jul 30, 2011 19:56 PM

What a wonderful idea!
Is it a web site were people with the same ideas what a fair & good society can share with others?
I have been trying for a couple of years to meet other Canadians in southern Ontario who subscribe to ZMAG & ZNET and it's views on people and community. Outstanding ZNET!

Max   

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Re: ZSocial?

By Albert, Michael at Jul 30, 2011 20:32 PM

On the cheap, so to speak, we are going to try to deliver a site that works quite like facebook - but for the left, and with additional virtues. We will see! Sustainers will be able to access it first, and soon, helping us test it and develop it.

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Person

Spot on

By Rodriguez, Paulo at Jul 30, 2011 19:27 PM

Hi Mr. Albert,

I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling so strong about this. Facebook has resulted in severe consequences for employees being vetted/fired based on their FB activity, NGO's being blocked from publishing critical information on it, and people choosing quantity over quality in their sharing of life experiences and nurturing of social relations.

However, part of the appeal is the knowledge that you can *theoretically* reach millions. Labourstart, Avaaz, the I.L.O. and many others have developed such a tunnel vision, while sadly forgetting about the points you have stated above. When put this way, it does make sense... but they should know better.

How about individuals though?

I for one finally chose not even to be caught dead using that piece of trash. It has impacted some of my so-called friendships, but one has to ask... what kind of durable social relations can result from a tool where commitment and trust between individuals can be undone by clicking on a "Delete Account" button?

On the other hand, though this might be only applicable to me, I wonder... People I've come across on the left tend to develop 2 personalities: the radical leftist one which is sure to raise some eyebrows or even displease or anger someone when making statements in mainstream social space, and the "watered down" personality used to interact in public without fear of scorn.

There are social endeavours I enjoy myself as well that I expect would be frowned upon if I shared them on a site such as this: first perspective shooter games, which put gamers in a context of war and carnage; music styles whose lyrical content might be lightly to utterly reprehensible, while it might have other musical qualities that tip the balance in one's opinion; the enjoyment of stand-up comedy which generates laughter out of racism, death, tyranny and violence; and so on.

I would think it's a variation of the "radical activist wearing nike shoes" to a certain extent. I'm not quite sure how to handle this: even though I would like to believe I have a thick skin, publishing such content on a site with people who might take offense or attack one personally might eventually put me/someone off from fully using ZNet, out of fear of being ostracized...

Then again, the problem might lie within myself and the strength of my convictions. I suspect however I'm not the only one feeling this kind of confusion/contradiction within oneself.

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589024

Re: Spot on

By Petersen, Robert at Jul 30, 2011 21:42 PM

Why would you ever be concerned about being ostracized?  Is it that you think that people who believe capitalism is a disease can't deal with diversity?  We live in a capitalist society so everything we do interacts with it.  Don't feel yourself a contradiction.  Speak and be heard, and allow the interaction to follow.  I can't believe anyone would personally attack you.  Lively discussion, yes; personal attack, no.   

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Person

Re: Re: Spot on

By Rodriguez, Paulo at Aug 01, 2011 21:08 PM

Hi Mr. Petersen,

Pretty sure my concerns stem from my short-lived membership at the PVDA , basically the communist party here in Belgium, during my younger years. You are correct though, the diversity of topics and opinions on ZNet makes the difference.

Thanks!

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1

Re: Spot on

By Albert, Michael at Jul 31, 2011 13:52 PM

However, part of the appeal is the knowledge that you can *theoretically* reach millions. Labourstart, Avaaz, the I.L.O. and many others have developed such a tunnel vision, while sadly forgetting about the points you have stated above. When put this way, it does make sense... but they should know better.

You are quite right - but I think the meaning of this is actually much worse. The internet at large is a place to reach everyone on it. So what does it mean to say Facebook is the place to reach millions? It means they have hypnotized the planet, more or less. That is, they are getting people to believe that rather than reaching out through the internet - with web pages, blogs, etc. - one should reach out via Facebook, with nuggets. 

It really is incredible, when you think about it. The young people who rightly praised the internet for being (despite the interests of power) a place where it was possible to reach out and communicate without anyone being in charge of your content and abilities to act - or nearly so - are now streaming to ratify a tight corporate system trying to rechannel everything thought its own oversight - and quite willing to act as a gendarme for states, a packager with agenda, and so on...

I for one finally chose not even to be caught dead using that piece of trash. It has impacted some of my so-called friendships, but one has to ask... what kind of durable social relations can result from a tool where commitment and trust between individuals can be undone by clicking on a "Delete Account" button?

Or where one becomes a friend by clicking a be a friend button? Pretty incredible, when you think about it...or so it seems to me. I have no problem at all with the idea that one wants to have a communications network with a set of people - but that network ought to facilitate communications... we will see if ZSocial can buck up against the trends.

> On the other hand, though this might be only applicable to me, I wonder... People I've come across  on the left tend to develop 2 personalities: the radical leftist one which is sure to raise some eyebrows or even displease or anger someone when making statements in mainstream social space, and the "watered down" personality used to interact in public without fear of scorn.

I don't think that is nearly as uncommon as you might think... 

> There are social endeavours I enjoy myself as well that I expect would be frowned upon if I shared them on a site such as this: first perspective shooter games, which put gamers in a context of war and carnage; music styles whose lyrical content might be lightly to utterly reprehensible, while it might have other musical qualities that tip the balance in one's opinion; the enjoyment of stand-up comedy which generates laughter out of racism, death, tyranny and violence; and so on.

Well, I will admit, I don't think these are wonderful - but I think they are rather like almost everything in society. Real needs are met, but only partly, while simultaneously generating profits, imposing habits, demanding views - that are conforming...and sink in, over time. That is, after all, what Facebook does, too...

> I would think it's a variation of the "radical activist wearing nike shoes" to a certain extent. I'm not quite sure how to handle this: even though I would like to believe I have a thick skin, publishing such content on a site with people who might take offense or attack one personally might eventually put me/someone off from fully using ZNet, out of fear of being ostracized...

I think one doesn't have to have a negative spin on what you are saying. I myself don't want to read accounts of first person shooter experiences - and I would wipe from the system racist, sexist, or classist jokes, etc. if directed to everyone. However, what people do with their friends is up to them, obviously. And if your friends are into shooters, and you are, well, okay. And I have no doubt that while some do that and it really does feed and reflect bad values and practices - others just like some of the aesthetics or excitement, or whatever. It is rather like watching NFL football, say. Can be a an onbalance bad thing though with some okay aspects, or can be an okay thing...though with some bad aspects. Like most of life in a grossly alienated system such as we endure. 

ZSocial won't be a place to find lost friends - i think - unless they are quite progressive, that is. Nor to keep tabs with family or friends, again, unless they are quite progressive. And it certainly won't be a place, internally, to reach out to people who are not of the left. But it will allow and promote people having circles of friends and workmates and so on, and communicating with those, or with everyone, as they decide. And it will permit shipping out content to larger commercial networks. And it will allow taking in content, as well, from all over the left, and so on. 

But the truth is, or this is my guess, anyhow - while it is going to be vastly easier to use and in many ways more powerful than ZSpace, and it will certainly attract a lot more use - whether it will become a serious home for leftists - say, 50,000 or 250,000 or more - is going to depend a great deal on three things...

(1) whether folks will realize and feel strongly the desirability of using commercial sites for some purposes but having our own for other pruposes...

(2) whether folks will welcome the possibility of a huge array of leftists using a system and disagreeing with diverging, being diverse without taking leave...

(3) whether, as individuals begin to see 1 and 2 - they will urge on others, as well - via blogs, email, and yes, on facebook and via tweets, etc. What better use of those tools than to help us build our own network, even as we continue to use them, but for a lesser ranger of our activity?

> Then again, the problem might lie within myself and the strength of my convictions. I suspect however I'm not the only one feeling this kind of confusion/contradiction within oneself.

You can be sure of it.

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Frank3

Re: Re: Spot on

By Kashner, Frank at Aug 01, 2011 09:13 AM

Hi Michael, I value and financially support your efforts and know that you and Z have had great impact on the left.  I also am concerned that we don't only talk to each other.  Here are thoughts about some of what you wrote:

>You are quite right - but I think the meaning of this is actually much worse. The internet at large is a place to reach everyone on it. So what does it mean to say Facebook is the place to reach millions? It means they have hypnotized the planet, more or less. That is, they are getting people to believe that rather than reaching out through the internet - with web pages, blogs, etc. - one should reach out via Facebook, with nuggets.

--- one way of viewing FB is that it is a vast, new utility that is successful because it offers functionality that did not previously exist.  Like the railroad, it is operated for profit and power, which detracts from the service that it offers but only in ways that do not endanger user loyalty. It is our job to point out the ways in which profit seeking and power interferes with our rights and full expression. There is an army of programmers working to enhance its functionality in ways that bring new users who spend more time there.  Clearly, the nuggets are of value to millions of people in personal as well as political ways.

>It really is incredible, when you think about it. The young people who rightly praised the internet for being (despite the interests of power) a place where it was possible to reach out and communicate without anyone being in charge of your content and abilities to act - or nearly so - are now streaming to ratify a tight corporate system trying to rechannel everything thought its own oversight - and quite willing to act as a gendarme for states, a packager with agenda, and so on...

---- there was no vote for ratification - there is value offered, value perceived, and value received.  Like the railroad or phone companies (remember ATT) FB, like every other institution, can be and is subject to challenges to its power, both from competitors and from democratic forces (eg. why was my content censored?)

>Or where one becomes a friend by clicking a be a friend button? Pretty incredible, when you think about it...or so it seems to me. I have no problem at all with the idea that one wants to have a communications network with a set of people - but that network ought to facilitate communications... we will see if ZSocial can buck up against the trends.

----  I know people who found kindred spirits through and only through FB. Would we deny them this? FB's "first to market" status gives it a huge advantage.  I hope that ZSocial is valuable to the left AND we should also fully participate in FB, understanding its limitations and dangers, engaging it politically like we must engage every other institution of society.  Yes, Z should have the FB buttons - conservative friends of mine see my reposts from a dozen progressive publications.

- Frank






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Frank3

Re: Re: Re: Spot on

By Kashner, Frank at Aug 01, 2011 09:15 AM

on a side note, I am confused by the time assigned my post.  Is it GMT?  - f

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1

Re: Re: Re: Spot on

By Albert, Michael at Aug 01, 2011 13:10 PM

Hi Michael, I value and financially support your efforts and know that you and Z have had great impact on the left.  I also am concerned that we don't only talk to each other.  Here are thoughts about some of what you wrote:

Of course - yet sometimes we have to do just that - with real substance... that you and I need to talk with others, doesn't mean we don't talk to each other, here, now...

>You are quite right - but I think the meaning of this is actually much worse. The internet at large is a place to reach everyone on it. So what does it mean to say Facebook is the place to reach millions? It means they have hypnotized the planet, more or less. That is, they are getting people to believe that rather than reaching out through the internet - with web pages, blogs, etc. - one should reach out via Facebook, with nuggets.

--- one way of viewing FB is that it is a vast, new utility that is successful because it offers functionality that did not previously exist.  Like the railroad, it is operated for profit and power, which detracts from the service that it offers but only in ways that do not endanger user loyalty. It is our job to point out the ways in which profit seeking and power interferes with our rights and full expression. There is an army of programmers working to enhance its functionality in ways that bring new users who spend more time there.  Clearly, the nuggets are of value to millions of people in personal as well as political ways.

We have to be careful - what if the main thing of value is precisely that your mother and child, friend and high school friend, do it too? That is valuable, I suspect it is the overwhelming value. Because FB has that, it can define the rest as it likes, and people mold their tastes to comply...

The simple fact is, for now, the left cannot have 500,000,000 participants. We can have left participants - we don't know how many. It depends greatly on whether people see the need and make an effort...

Can still use FB for some things - but ZSocial, for others...

>It really is incredible, when you think about it. The young people who rightly praised the internet for being (despite the interests of power) a place where it was possible to reach out and communicate without anyone being in charge of your content and abilities to act - or nearly so - are now streaming to ratify a tight corporate system trying to rechannel everything thought its own oversight - and quite willing to act as a gendarme for states, a packager with agenda, and so on...

---- there was no vote for ratification - there is value offered, value perceived, and value received.  Like the railroad or phone companies (remember ATT) FB, like every other institution, can be and is subject to challenges to its power, both from competitors and from democratic forces (eg. why was my content censored?)

One thing can have two faces, and FaceBook does. It isn't quite like making arsenic tasty - so it meets one need and kills you - but it may be as bad or even worse than cigarettes - it helps with one thing or a group of things - but addicts you, bends your habits, invades your scheduling and budget, and sickens you over time. Maybe not - read the earlier essays and see what you think...

>Or where one becomes a friend by clicking a be a friend button? Pretty incredible, when you think about it...or so it seems to me. I have no problem at all with the idea that one wants to have a communications network with a set of people - but that network ought to facilitate communications... we will see if ZSocial can buck up against the trends.

----  I know people who found kindred spirits through and only through FB. Would we deny them this? 

No one is denying anyone anything - even if we had any means in that direction, which of course we do not. The point is, to begin building structures that can meet needs better, without the debits. And, in the short run, can serve the left without it being subject to the whims of a giant intrusive, manipulative, corporation. 

To say we shouldn't not have people enjoy interrelations isn't a response to we should have better interrelations...

Just like to say we should not deny people good taste or a tension reducer is not a response to wanting to replace tasty arsenic or cigarettes...

-- FB's "first to market" status gives it a huge advantage.  I hope that ZSocial is valuable to the left AND we should also fully participate in FB, understanding its limitations and dangers, engaging it politically like we must engage every other institution of society.  Yes, Z should have the FB buttons - conservative friends of mine see my reposts from a dozen progressive publications.

I am not sure why you are asking for what I have repeatedly said we are doing... and proposing an approach that I have suggested. I guess you are agreeing?

- Frank

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Frank3

Re: Re: Re: Re: Spot on

By Kashner, Frank at Aug 01, 2011 13:26 PM

sorry, I have not read everything - I am happy to be in agreement.

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Person

Re: Re: Spot on

By Rodriguez, Paulo at Aug 01, 2011 21:21 PM

Just realized that the title of my reply and its content didn't match my initial intent, and I ended up digressing into slight negativity.

Obviously, I can't wait to take the new social platform for a spin. Thanks for (once again!) pushing the envelope. I for one will be nagging Avaaz and Eric Lee at Labourstart.org to give it a try!

Have a good one,

P

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Stephen_oct_2010

What will happen to ZSpace?

By Roblin, Stephen at Jul 30, 2011 14:51 PM

Hi Michael,

Good piece. I of course agree: we need left alternatives. I'm looking forward to ZSocial.

Quick question. What will happen to our ZSpace pages once ZSocial is up? 

Stephen

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Re: What will happen to ZSpace?

By Albert, Michael at Jul 30, 2011 16:05 PM

They will persist... This will replace many functions - but your ZSpace pages will still be there as a place to do as you like!

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