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Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Noam Chomsky at Apr 13, 2005

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…Big Oil and the state often conflict -- and the very same individuals make different decisions when they are working within the industry and when they are running the State Department -- which is concerned not with the short-term parochial interests of one component of the US corporate system but with its long-term global predominance, which introduces other considerations. There are classic examples. Take Iran. After overthrowing the parliamentary government and restoring the Shah, Washington compelled the majors to pick up 40% of the British concession, though they didn't want to, because they preferred at the time to lift much cheaper oil from Saudi Arabia and didn't want to prejudice those contacts. They were compelled to do it. Something similar is happening right now. Energy corporations don't like being shut out of the Iranian reserves, leaving them to rivals, but the state -- run by Big Oil to no slight extent -- is forcing them to do it. Something similar is happening in Cuba, a much more marginal business interest. It's not unusual. The US didn't invade Eastern Congo, where it would have been far easier to stop incomparably worse atrocities, and where Bush's "messianic vision" to bring democracy would have been about as plausible as in Iraq, after the WMD pretexts collapsed. They preferred Iraq. The reasons are pretty obvious, and largely have to do with oil, and the "critical leverage" control of energy gives Washington over its European and Asian rivals, as Brzezinski put it, echoing strategic conceptions that go back to the early postwar period.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at May 03, 2005 12:08 PM
does anybody enjoy doing it doggy dog style?

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 30, 2005 19:42 PM
Jr2, I've finally figured you out. You're ex-military, aren't you? Murdering others comes naturally to you. Probably a middle-aged man who still shows undying loyalty to his country's leader. Which one is it? Bush or Blair? That also explains why you won't have a word said against the U.S. America is a superpower, a white nation, and white supremacy is what you're all about. You're the kind of person who deserves to be blown to pieces in Iraq. Click on "Massacre of Civilians in Fallujah" to see shocking images of Iraqis being massacred by a psychopathic U.S. pilot.: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/BUN410A.html Home page here: http://www.globalresearch.ca

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 30, 2005 17:20 PM
Finally, let's remind ourselves of just how ugly, just how much blood, jr2 - a lover of America and the American people - has on his hands. He accused me of a "Chomskian conspiracy" when I cited the brutal expulsion of the islanders of Diego Garcia from their homeland in the 1960s and 1970s to make way for a U.S. military base. I also mentioned the fact that Tony Blair - the man who made the "moral case" for war with Iraq - the man who is currently arming and supporting a brutal tyrant in undemocratic Uzbekistan ( http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2003/10/28/tony-blairs-new-friend/ ) - issued a decree barring the Diego Garcia people from ever returning to their island, citing "terrorism" as the pretext. How moral of him! jr2 denied the story, and accused me of lying. An article on the BBC's news Web site about Diego Garcia: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/835963.stm An article on Zmag, written by John Pilger, also about Diego Garcia: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=11&ItemID=6470 The islanders have taken their case to the High Court in London, and no one has denied the shocking treatment the islanders received from the British - only jr2!!!

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 30, 2005 16:51 PM
But foreigners. They are not allowed to misunderstand Americans. They are "anti-American". They are terrorists. They hate America. And disliking America is the worst crime anyone can commit. Notice the asymmetry in the relationship America and the American people have with the world. All I can say is Chomsky has failed dismally in getting his point across. People are using Chomsky's words to apologize for U.S. terrorism, to excuse the willful ignorance of the American people (not to mention their lust for blood). Don't attack America, we mean you no harm. Tell that to an Iraqi, to an Iranian, or to the people of Venezuela. I make a post saying, it's not just the media, then this person harasses me, telling me Chomsky says it's the media, therefore it's the media. I make another post saying "it's the media, stupid", and this psychopath hounds me, telling me to stop recycling Chomsky platitudes. I've never met such an ugly bunch of unthinking, imbecilic, semi-literate people as I have on this board. jr2, when you die, it will be a day to rejoice. Who wants to bet jr2 (aka "The Psychopath") is going to abuse me further after seeing this post? I just hope he hasn't found out where I live!

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 30, 2005 16:31 PM
jr2 writes: "my only advice to you is to get of the computer for a while..." This from a psychopath who responds to every post I make; alternately attacks and supports Chomsky; and hangs around this board like a fly over a pile of excrement. Get a new set of friends, jr2 (although, I don't think you have any), and wake up to how many people are sick and tired of America and the Americans. There was an article on commondreams.org not so long ago about the frosty reception an American backpacker received from the Spanish. People I know myself go on about how brainwashed the Americans are - more brainwashed than any Russian was under "communism". jr2 writes: "& take a look at the world around you. your angst-ridden anti-american posts" This from a Brit! The British are about as insular and as narrow-minded as the Americans. However, jr2 nicely proved my point. I said I would be called "anti-American" and I was. I knew I could rely on that reject of society to come up trumps for me. Too often, Chomsky et al excuse the ignorance of Americans. Americans are allowed to misunderstand foreigners, allowed to butcher and impoverish millions of people on a "misunderstanding". That's acceptable.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Casten, J.d. at Apr 30, 2005 11:19 AM
As for oil, contrary to those who insist “no blood for oil,” oil is the main blood of current economies that provide the jobs that afford health care, etc.; and also produce the surplus wealth that can be shared. Especially in times of great catastrophe (e.g. the recent Tsunami), wealthy states and individuals have the resources to give. More planned economies or social organizations without stored up surplus wealth would have a harder time shifting their work-forces to respond to such disasters. Beyond a “messianic vision” for world democracy might be the sun like explosiveness of the hydrogen economy on the inevitable horizon (transportable hydrogen needs energy for production however, hence the renewed interest in nuclear energy, and ideas like “Project Phoenix: shifting form oil to hydrogen at wartime speed”)

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Casten, J.d. at Apr 30, 2005 10:52 AM
Competition permeates capitalist systems, and hastens their evolutionary character. There are wider scope institutions and collectives that bring together smaller groups within their range and create such notions as “Team America.” The competitions and cooperation operate in areas ranging from individuals (or even within individual brains) competing for jobs up through office teams, companies, cities, states, and nations, etc. However, it seems to me that global organizations should be above this competition (even amongst themselves, although conflicts are inevitable)—and stop the “schizo-phrenic” over-population of one segment the global ecology that crowds out the others (e.g. oil exhaust proliferation leading to global warming).

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 29, 2005 15:51 PM
"Tell an American SOME Chinese eat dogs - and watch their racist reaction. Criticize an American for butchering Iraqis, and prepare to be abused, insulted, and called "anti-American"" in your case it seems, that would be an apt description my only advice to you is to get of the computer for a while & take a look at the world around you. your angst-ridden anti-american posts are filled with just pointless inane nonsense & i;m afraid they add nothing to the debate....i hope you take this advice on board without being insulting or rude...something every aspiring chomsky can learn from the master himself

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 29, 2005 15:27 PM
"All you do is gloat over other people's suffering, jr2. You're a vile human being." i take it we're not going to be friends then? "You've contributed nothing to this board. All you do is moan and complain. You're a worthless pile of garbage." all *i* do is moan and complain??! pot...kettle..black.. actually if you look at most of my posts, they contain constructive criticism. and insulting other people because you think you're morally superior than them is a common left-wing tactic and probably a major undoing of the chomskian followers "I can't figure you out. But I think you might come from a very working class background....blah..blah...blah..." the first sentence is correct, your powers of observation & deduction are appalling...in all matters it seems "We are not friends, jr2. We never will be. " thats a shame...i think we might have got on if it wasn't for our political differences "Chomsky only talks to the elite, to those who attend prestigious universities. He wastes time writing letters to the Financial Times to uphold his reputation among the well-to-do, and ignores people who post to this board because it might attract the commoners..." what happened...didn't he reply to your emails??...btw many commoners read the financial times...your stereotyping of everyone & anything is getting ridiculous

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 29, 2005 14:48 PM
"If you'd known people whose friends and relatives have committed suicide so would you be defeatist. My life hasn't been great, either." i think you would make a great radiohead fan. let down is a great song....i've posted the lyrics: Transport, motorways and tramlines Starting and then stopping Taking off and landing The emptiest of feelings Disappointed people clinging on to bottles And when it comes it's so so disappointing Let down and hanging around Crushed like a bug in the ground Let down and hanging around Shell smashed, juices flowing Wings twitch, legs are going Don't get sentimental It always ends up drivel One day I'm going to grow wings A chemical reaction Hysterical and useless Hysterical and ... Let down and hanging around Crushed like a bug in the ground Let down and hanging around Let down again Let down again Let down again You know, you know where you are with You know where you are with Floor collapsing Floating, bouncing back And one day.... I am going to grow wings A chemical reaction Hysterical and useless Hysterical and... Let down and hanging around Crushed like a bug in the ground Let down and hanging around

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 29, 2005 14:38 PM
jr2 writes: "the-abyss i'm afraid you're one of the people dragging this message board down" Fine, let the left elite waffle away for the next one hundred years, kidding themselves that they're reaching the people, when no one is actually listening. Ask the average man in the street who Chomsky is. "Who?" they'll say. Or Zmag. "What?" they'll say. Chomsky only talks to the elite, to those who attend prestigious universities. He wastes time writing letters to the Financial Times to uphold his reputation among the well-to-do, and ignores people who post to this board because it might attract the commoners, and we don't want commoners upsetting our nice little intellectual conversation that no one is listening to - now, do we? Either the left elite gets its act together and starts funding media outlets/publications for the masses - instead of analyzing everything to the nth degree, which is pointless when you have no power or influence - or it should shut up shop for good, accepting that the majority of people are racists and right-wingers. Tell an American SOME Chinese eat dogs - and watch their racist reaction. Criticize an American for butchering Iraqis, and prepare to be abused, insulted, and called "anti-American".

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 29, 2005 13:07 PM
jr2 writes: "with an attitude like that, is it any wonder the chomskian movement..." There is no Chomskian movement you moron. Chomsky is not a political leader; he's not trying to court fame; and he's not running a cult. He's just a man - like any other! But one who happens to share his views openly with other people. And he's not responsible for what anyone posts on this board. This board is in no way a reflection upon Chomsky, "the left", "the progressive community", or any other party or group. It's just a board, like any other. It's up to society to demand change, to get out there and march and protest and find out the facts. It's up to the masses. If they can't be bothered, there's nothing Chomsky or anyone can do. Who the hell do you think Chomsky is - JESUS BLOODY CHRIST??? Chomsky's an atheist, for starters. He doesn't believe in sacrificing his life for others. Like King Canute, Chomsky can't hold back the tide - and he's not dumb enough to believe he can. "ps. can we now be friends the-abyss?" No wonder Chomsky doesn't criticize the American people - with fanatics like you roaming free, he'd probably be murdered. We are not friends, jr2. We never will be.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 29, 2005 12:46 PM
jr2 writes: "frankly i am appalled by the defeatist attitude of the posts on this board" If you'd known people whose friends and relatives have committed suicide so would you be defeatist. My life hasn't been great, either. All you do is gloat over other people's suffering, jr2. You're a vile human being. You've contributed nothing to this board. All you do is moan and complain. You're a worthless pile of garbage. I can't figure you out. But I think you might come from a very working class background, and are deeply resentful of having to work for a living. You think those who sound middle class have had an easier time of things, and you resent that. That, or you're a spoilt little rich kid whose parents gave you every material possession you ever wanted, and more besides. Either way, you have a huge chip on your shoulder, and your obsession with Chomsky is disturbing to say the least.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 29, 2005 11:17 AM
i respectfully disagree with our friend bernardo....i think the human race are survivors and will survive. frankly i am appalled by the defeatist attitude of the posts on this board, for example: "I've given up debating Chomsky's posts in detail - where's the point? Until the left has some power and influence, this kind of "micro-analysis" is a waste of time - at least to people like me: ordinary members of the public, who aren't part of the elite, and who don't get rewarded for their efforts." with an attitude like that, is it any wonder the chomskian movement is where it is....that is, in the dumps the-abyss i'm afraid you're one of the people dragging this message board down....maybe you should start your own blog but somehow i don't think many people will be interested in recycled 2nd-rate chomskian ideas....please use a little initiative and come up with some of your own stuff! i hope if/when i return to this board in the future there will a marked improvement in ideas, discussions and plans. ps. can we now be friends the-abyss?

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 29, 2005 00:31 AM
jr2 writes: "a nice chomsky-esque flourish to finish things off..." For your information, jr2, I'm writing in my own style and thinking my own thoughts; I'm not trying to be another Chomsky. Chomsky is trying to convey useful information (at least, that's what I hope he's trying to do) - he's not trying to be another Charles Dickens, and neither am I. In fact, Chomsky couldn't hold a candle to Dickens' writing style. Here's a sample of Dickens' work - it's a story about you, jr2!: http://www.stormfax.com/1dickens.htm "...a little too hysterical if you want my constructive criticism" I don't want your "constructive criticism", thank you. Anyone who has read your posts will know you are full of contradictions, inconsistencies, and b**lsh*t

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 28, 2005 23:44 PM
Further to Shannon's comment about the ability of the "progressive community" to influence mainstream political thinking, here's a timely article on consortiumnews.com's Web site about just that: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/042805.html Extract: "Over the past three decades, the Right has achieved extraordinary success in building a powerful media infrastructure and reversing the media dynamic that existed in the days of Watergate and Vietnam. "But that conservative accomplishment owes part of the credit to a parallel decision by the progressive community to forsake media in favor of a focus on local organizing -- a miscalculation on the importance of media that continues to this day." *** I've given up debating Chomsky's posts in detail - where's the point? Until the left has some power and influence, this kind of "micro-analysis" is a waste of time - at least to people like me: ordinary members of the public, who aren't part of the elite, and who don't get rewarded for their efforts. The talents of people like Chomsky are being squandered because of the right's grip on power - and because of the willful ignorance, selfishness, and short-sightedness of many.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Antiamerican800, Bernardo at Apr 28, 2005 22:04 PM
Human society and the physical world are in irrevocable decline and there's no specific cause other then natural laws working on terrestrial limitations. Some agencies like corporations accelerate the process but it would eventually happen anyway.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 28, 2005 12:31 PM
"Yes, becoming. Because there is still a significant minority of Americans who are civilized, holding on for dear life, so to speak, amid tectonic shifts in American stupidity." the americans have always been savages, a small *insignificant* minority doesn't count "Now ask yourself why? "It's the Media, Stupid!"" mainly, but also idiots like yourself "Except, as I have said before, I also believe it's the American culture, overweening pride, and a mindless lust for retaliation, a nation that lets itself be led by the nose in "times of crisis" - the truth becoming academic; blind "patriotism" engulfing rational debate. " a nice chomsky-esque flourish to finish things off....but not quite upto chomsky standard...a little too hysterical if you want my constructive criticism

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 28, 2005 12:05 PM
yet another anti-american rant of herculian proportions...or should that be chomskian proportions... "You don't have any friends; you believe in the "survival of the fittest", remember?" good point...but lets not take it too extremes "Is he aware of the inequality that exists in the U.S.? The poverty? The suicides? The wasted lives?" yes, yes, don't know, don't know "What he really means is, "for ME, America is the best country in the world"." i'm sure he is capable of expressing himself "I've spoken to Americans who want to leave the U.S., and I've known people who've worked in America, and who don't ever want to go back. " so what? i know plenty of people who would love to go to america "All Chomsky seems to be attracting lately is idiots like you - and I think you're British, a sad indictment on the state of Britain today." a bit harsh... "Check out the ruling class of Britain here: http://www.chavscum.co.uk/" thats my mate in the first picture...the one with the fag is his mouth "We musn't criticize America, but America can slaughter and impoverish millions around the world - and commit appalling acts of terrorism." indeed, but you should stick to critisizing your own country "Go to bed, you dopey child!" no need to be so rude!

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 27, 2005 23:06 PM
>America is becoming a land of savages jr2 writes: "becoming??" Yes, becoming. Because there is still a significant minority of Americans who are civilized, holding on for dear life, so to speak, amid tectonic shifts in American stupidity. >How well have "progressives" exploited the >invasion of Iraq to make people aware that >the "war" is just another piece of the >"globalization" jigsaw?" jr2 writes: "not very well" Now ask yourself why? "It's the Media, Stupid!": http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/010505.html Except, as I have said before, I also believe it's the American culture, overweening pride, and a mindless lust for retaliation, a nation that lets itself be led by the nose in "times of crisis" - the truth becoming academic; blind "patriotism" engulfing rational debate.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 27, 2005 18:47 PM
jr2 scribbles: "you have way too much time on your hands....don't you have a job to go to?" All Chomsky seems to be attracting lately is idiots like you - and I think you're British, a sad indictment on the state of Britain today. Check out the ruling class of Britain here: http://www.chavscum.co.uk/ The British have copied America - and the results show!! "btw are you british...if so you have no right criticizing america..." You fool! What do you think Chomsky, and others, are doing by saying "America is the greatest country in the world", if not criticizing - albeit implicitly - Britain and other countries around the world. We musn't criticize America, but America can slaughter and impoverish millions around the world - and commit appalling acts of terrorism. Go to bed, you dopey child!

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 27, 2005 18:08 PM
jr2 writes: "despite our ideological differences i hope we are still friends?" You don't have any friends; you believe in the "survival of the fittest", remember? "Survival of the fittest" - another right-wing distortion of the truth. Evolution is about the survival of the best adapted to the environment. "you haven't quite grasped a few of the chomskian fundamentals but you're getting there..." Chomsky hasn't quite grasped a few fundamental realities, either. The fact that at his age, after all these years, his only retort to why he lives in America is: because "it's the greatest country in the world" shows a serious lack of perceptiveness. Is he aware of the inequality that exists in the U.S.? The poverty? The suicides? The wasted lives? What he really means is, "for ME, America is the best country in the world". I've spoken to Americans who want to leave the U.S., and I've known people who've worked in America, and who don't ever want to go back.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 27, 2005 17:24 PM
you have way too much time on your hands....don't you have a job to go to? "For the first time in memory, many Americans are hearing coherent and consistent arguments from progressives. It's suddenly cool to stand up to Bush and to recognize the phoniness of the mainstream media." i'm afraid this is just wishful thinking on the left "The British presenter said in a joking tone (I paraphrase): "You Americans are balmy!"" that fat bitch is none other than vanessa feltz who isn't exactly normal herself "America is becoming a land of savages" becoming?? "I actually didn't want to march under the "Stop the War" banner (the "war" ended in 2003 for starters), but what choice did I have? It was that or march alone." you should have marched alone "How well have "progressives" exploited the invasion of Iraq to make people aware that the "war" is just another piece of the "globalization" jigsaw?" not very well "Shannon writes: "Can progressives exploit this looming problem?"" shannon is way out of her depth....she probably has no clue what this means and probably copied it from a leftist website.....go and have your milk and cookies you stupid yank btw are you british...if so you have no right critisizing america...as im sure the esteemed noam chomsky would agree...it is hypocritical to say the least

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 26, 2005 22:47 PM
Article here you might want to read, if you haven't already: Progressive media give the Democratic jellyfish a backbone: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/042605.html (Article on consortiumnews.com's Web site - currently fundraising to stay alive) Excerpt: "The biggest political mystery in Washington is what's caused the surprising change in the Democrats, who are demonstrating uncustomary courage in battling George W. Bush and the Republican congressional majority. The Democrats were supposed to cower and compromise after the disastrous Election 2004, but they have started to find their voice, perhaps because they have new chances to speak on 'progressive talk radio.' "For the first time in memory, many Americans are hearing coherent and consistent arguments from progressives. It's suddenly cool to stand up to Bush and to recognize the phoniness of the mainstream media."

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 26, 2005 22:27 PM
Shannon writes: "Can progressives exploit this looming problem?" How well have "progressives" exploited the invasion of Iraq to make people aware that the "war" is just another piece of the "globalization" jigsaw? I went on the "anti-war" march in London on March 19 - photos here: http://www.stopwar.org.uk/March19.htm - and a few people heckled us, saying, "How can you sleep at night?" Unfortunately, I think all many people saw was a bunch of pacifists who don't like war. I actually didn't want to march under the "Stop the War" banner (the "war" ended in 2003 for starters), but what choice did I have? It was that or march alone. In the mainstream media - particularly on television - we hear nothing about Iraq's economy, or how U.S. corporations are going to exploit/control it. People really do seem to believe in the invisible hand; Iraq's economy will just create itself, and in a way that benefits the Iraqis. As for the 15% corporate and individual tax rate the U.S. has imposed, there seems to be a news blackout. The "war" is over, just a "few" insurgents left to fight, and the rest is up to the Iraqi people - that's how a lot people look at it, I think.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 26, 2005 18:26 PM
Why Americans are becoming objects of hatred and derision around the world - and rightly so!: On a British TV program about plastic surgery, the audience was "treated" to a live feed from LA of a woman lying on a surgeon's table having her feet remodeled. The tips of her toes were sawn off, and other "adjustments" made, so that her feet would be the right shape. Her feet weren't deformed, mind you. She just wanted perfect feet for high-heeled shoes. Cosmetic surgery for the feet! The British presenter said in a joking tone (I paraphrase): "You Americans are balmy!" The American, a very well-educated plastic surgeon - and as humorless as any American you care to pick - retorted: "America is the best country in the world; that's why we rule the world." "THAT'S WHY WE *RULE* THE WORLD" - his exact words. America is becoming a land of savages.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 26, 2005 13:49 PM
maybe you should rename yourself chomsky-lite. you haven't quite grasped a few of the chomskian fundamentals but you're getting there....you are hampered by too much old-style left-wing crap despite our ideological differences i hope we are still friends? didn't green day have an album called "american idiot". and radiohead had the album "hail to the thief". good song but irrelevent to the topic in hand. which brings me on to shannon's comment. shannon please go and play with your barbie doll, this is a discussion for adults not a discussion on some computer game you've been playing i think y'all need to think about the following comment made by general musharaff of pakistan: "Globalization has become the order of the day although without adequate safeguards and equity this itself, to some extent, is becoming a problem." god bless

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 25, 2005 20:33 PM
I wrote in response to jr2's wind-up: "...you DO NOT believe in the 'survival of the fittest' despite what you say. You believe in the philosophy of 'I'm all right Jack, so scr*w you!'" --- Actually, that wouldn't be too bad, but jr2's philosophy - and many other people's! - is "I'm all right Jack, so I'M GOING to scr*w you." Something altogether different - just ask an Iraqi!!

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 25, 2005 17:58 PM
As for "God Save the Queen!", haven't you heard of the "Sex Pistols", a British punk group from the 1970s? They wrote a song called, "God Save The Queen". I recommend you read the lyrics here: http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/sexpistols/godsavethequeen.html Album cover here: http://www.voodoovenue.com/images/gstq.jpg Can you imagine an American band making fun of their president in such a disrespectful manner? The band members would be called terrorists, and lynched by the "GREAT" American public. As for what I'm wearing. I'm wearing a sexy, white "God Save The Queen" T-shirt. It sports a picture of the Queen on the front with a safety pin through her lips - she ain't no human being!: http://www.andreubalius.com/andreubalius/imatges/articles/Grrr/God-save-the-queen.jpg

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Shannon_r_white, Shannon at Apr 25, 2005 17:51 PM
I was thinking about what Chomsky was saying about the difference between the oil men and the neocons (I know that's not exactly how he put it). Apparently, the US will be attacking Iran sometime this year. Because of the disaster that Iraq became for them, the US admin is apparently considering a bomb-them-to-the-stone-age tactic, without a land invasion, i.e. totally destroy the country's infrastructure. Well, Iran has long-term contracts with Big Oil -- not US Big Oil, but Big Oil, nonetheless. Something tells me Big Oil will be none to pleased with a such a large scale disruption to their oil supply. Their bottom line will be severely impacted. So, Big Oil is likely going to demand either huge compensation or an American seizure and securing of the big Iranian oil fields. Obviously, neither option will be easy to sell to the American public. Can progressives exploit this looming problem?

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 25, 2005 17:27 PM
Therefore, what you are advocating: a species ruthlessly competing against itself - rather like birds pecking each other to death, instead of flocking to evade capture - or refusing to huddle together for warmth as penguins must do - may run so counter to nature, be so at odds with the environment, that we ultimately destroy the human race. In any case, you DO NOT believe in the "survival of the fittest" despite what you say. You believe in the philosophy of "I'm all right Jack, so scr*w you!" If your existence was threatened - like some in the Third World - you'd squeal like a little pig. "i hate to tell you..." I have no illusions about human beings. Human beings can be absolutely evil. George W. Bush and Tony Blair are two examples. >hope you're not too angry to send a reply I'm not angry at all. I feel deeply sorry for you. You've bought the lie that so many impoverished losers buy - namely, that winners are callous, and to be successful one has to be ruthless and uncaring. I'm going to have to end this communication with you soon, because your posts are turning into mere graffiti.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 25, 2005 16:52 PM
>i disagree, i think his stuff is quite >accessible This is like a shop telling its customers our products are great, even though many walk right past. If you want a book explaining the complex situation in the Middle East - in an easy-to-digest narrative - Chomsky isn't the place to start. >shades of the great chomsky here... This is not a bloody game. It's not meant to be about Chomsky and how "great" he is - it's about our lives and our happiness. You really are dumb. >"you don't have to have an education to >understand...in fact you need a pretty good >education not to understand it". Really? I've lived in poor areas, lived around not very well-off people, and, believe me, there are many "working class" individuals who support right-wing policies, who have swallowed the lies, and would tell Chomsky to go jump in a lake! >ok lets say what you said is true...so what? >? i believe in a more fundamental idea >called SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST. It's sad how stupid you are. Evolution is not about the survival of the fittest - it's about the survival of the BEST ADAPTED (to one's environment!).

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 25, 2005 14:44 PM
"You actually don't have to be particularly intelligent to grasp what is going on - this isn't degree-level maths or physics. Anyone can understand it" shades of the great chomsky here...."you don't have to have an education to understand...in fact you need a pretty good education not to understand it". degree-level maths is piss-easy to be honest. and chomsky puts it far more eloquently. "I sometimes think maybe he only wants to bother with the university educated" i disagree, i think his stuff is quite accessible "By making people believe the lies Bush, Blair and their corporate friends tell us, you have the deaths of thousands of people on your conscience." Not guilty! ok lets say what you said is true...so what?? i believe in a more fundamental idea called SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST. it's the way mankind operates. so even if what you say happened, it would be irrelevent as you couldn't do much about it.. chomsky and his ilk also fail to take into account apathy....even if people thought a great crime was being committed..would they actually care enough to do anything about it??..i hate to tell you but i very much doubt it! unless it directly affected them i don't think enough people could be bothered. i could go on but i know it'll probably only make your blood boil.....hope you're not too angry to send a reply hope you're having a great day! & you didn't tell me what you were wearing... God save our gracious queen.....God Save the Queen!

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 25, 2005 13:40 PM
"you give me far too much credit....i am nowhere near as intelligent as you seem to think." You actually don't have to be particularly intelligent to grasp what is going on - this isn't degree-level maths or physics. Anyone can understand it. You just don't want to. Though I will admit, Chomsky doesn't make his books/articles easy to read. I sometimes think maybe he only wants to bother with the university educated. By making people believe the lies Bush, Blair and their corporate friends tell us, you have the deaths of thousands of people on your conscience. An article on the BBC's news Web site: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/835963.stm Excerpts: "...the Ilois [were] expelled in an act of late colonial arrogance breathtaking in its execution." "The islands were of great strategic significance...But the Americans did not want a 'population problem', as they put it." "All this was only revealed in 1975, through a United States congressional inquiry into the Diego Garcia military base." "But even then, the British government tried to cover it up." With the billions the BBC gets (steals!) from the public, it's news service is pretty poor. Search elsewhere for more in-depth articles.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 25, 2005 11:55 AM
you give me far too much credit....i am nowhere near as intelligent as you seem to think. so what are you wearing?

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 23, 2005 00:51 AM
I wondered how jr2xyz could say that the cover-up of what had happened on the island of Diego Garcia in the 1960s and 1970s had to be founded upon a huge conspiracy. And then I realised. I had written: “The British covered it up...” jr2xyz, lacking common sense, assumed this meant the British media covered it up. In fact, it was the British government that kept the scandal from breaking. The media didn't know, so how could the media be part of a conspiracy? The government told the world the island was empty, and then removed the people quietly. The story has broken now, but "no one" seems interested - although maybe that's because not enough people know. There was an hour-long documentary on Diego Garcia on British TV last year - aired at 11pm at night!! Nonetheless, a group of islanders have, in the past, flown to Britain a number of times to fight their case in court, and it has been British citizens who have helped pay their costs. People know about Diego Garcia now, and about the plight of the islanders. Only jr2 is dumb enough to deny it ever happened, and accuse me of lying. As for a Chomskian conspiracy: I haven't heard Chomsky mention Diego Garcia once.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 22, 2005 22:01 PM
I'm not responsible for Chomsky's views, or what he says or does. He is! And, conversely, Chomsky is not responsible for what anyone on this board says or does. "...we are getting a little carried away from the main subject matter so i propose we return to it." You can propose what you want. "god bless america..." Another religious nut, just like Bush! "God told me to strike at Al Qaida and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did." (President George W. Bush to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas on June 4, 2003) Extracted from "Secrets and Lies" by Dilip Hiro. Caveat emptor: George W. Bush believes Jesus Christ is the son of God about as much as I believe I'm right wing.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 22, 2005 21:41 PM
McCarthy had got it into his tiny, little, right-wing mind that the U.S. government was riddled with "Communists". He started making unfounded accusations, and before long a full-fledged purge was underway that spread beyond the government into society, affecting the lives of thousands of people. Interestingly, Saddam Hussein and Stalin were also fond of purges. And Bush, recently, purged the CIA. "...and theres no need for such personal attacks!!" You can mock me - telling me to keep taking the medicine - and I'm meant to just sit here and take the abuse? If you stop attacking me, and show me some respect, I'll respect you. "...i sure hope this isn't the cutting edge of chomskian thinkers" There you go again. Do you have any intelligence? Chomsky isn't a party or an organization that people join and swear allegiance to. Chomsky is an individual who speaks for himself. And I speak for myself. If my views happen to coincide with Chomsky's, I'll defend what he says. But if Chomsky says something that I vehemently disagree with, I won't hide my feelings.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 22, 2005 21:20 PM
jr2xyz writes: "...i say, your chomskian conspiracies are beginning to tire me." Obviously, during spring cleaning you went a bit too far. If you hurry, you might be able to collect the plastic bag with your brain in from the rubbish dump. Clearly, accusing Chomsky of being a conspiracy theorist is a right-wing tactic used in the vain hope of discrediting the guy – similar to calling someone "anti-American". Conspiracy theories are, in fact, more popular with the right. What do you think Bush sold the American public, if not a conspiracy theory? Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Saudi citizens, Egyptians, Afghanis - in fact, just about the entire Middle East - got together to destroy America on September 11, 2001. And the reason they did it, according to Bush: sheer envy! How mindless can you get? America has seen such stupidity before: In the 1950s, Joe McCarthy, a Republican Senator, took the tendency the American right has for seeing conspiracies to a new level.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 22, 2005 11:24 AM
tally ho! i say, your chomskian conspiracies are beginning to tire me. and theres no need for such personal attacks!! i sure hope this isn't the cutting edge of chomskian thinkers....otherwise we are all doomed...doomed! bravo to your splendid commitment and determination though. we are getting a little carried away from the main subject matter so i propose we return to it. god bless america (and 'nam of course)

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 21, 2005 22:04 PM
"...have you taken your medicine the-abyss...you really need to calm down....chin up eh?" Evidently, you've taken YOUR medicine, because you're near brain dead. Humans musn't have emotions anymore - it doesn't befit the corporate era we're in. We must be like Bush and Blair - psychologically disturbed, cold-blooded killers, who aren't in the least troubled by 23-year-olds hanging themselves after returning from a tour in Iraq, or Arab kids being blown to bits. The corporate loony bin is where you belong, jr2xyz. Which moron allowed you to escape?

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 21, 2005 21:43 PM
jr2xyz writes: "surely another chomskian conspiracy....did anyone read the financial times LIKE a few months ago..." You read the Financial Times and talk like a kid. Like what is wrong with you. Like can't you like read? Like, what's your name? Like, where d'you come from? A Chomskian conspiracy? What is? The millions of people Britain has slaughtered? I suggest, as a starting point, you read up on Diego Garcia. Two thousand defenceless people forced off their island to make way for a U.S. military base. The islanders' pets were killed, and the people of Diego Garcia told that the same would happen to them if they didn't remove themselves pronto. Having received no compensation, they were left to rot in Mauritius - in abject poverty. Parents and children committed suicide. The British covered it up, saying no deaths had occurred that weren't natural. Blair recently issued a decree permanently banning the Chagossians from ever returning to their island, using "terrorism" as the pretext. This despite a High Court ruling in 2000 that said the expulsion of the islanders was illegal and shameful.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 21, 2005 12:54 PM
have you taken your medicine the-abyss...you really need to calm down....chin up eh?

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jr_xyz, Jr2xyz at Apr 21, 2005 12:26 PM
surely another chomskian conspiracy....did anyone read the financial times like a few months ago.....it had a letter by the esteemed noam chosky taking a sneering chomskian cynic to the proverbial cleaners....a chomskian conspiracy indeed!!!

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 20, 2005 08:53 AM
If the U.S. government has nothing to hide, let's see a flood of documents released under the freedom of information act. I've read around, Roger. I read right-wing trash and visit right-wing Web sites. I even read criticisms of Chomsky. I'm too fair, that's my trouble. I stress myself out as a result, not knowing what the hell to believe. But I do listen - to both sides! Then I make up my mind. And my conclusion? Bush, Blair, and other advocates of the "war on terrorism" and "globalization", are cold-blooded murderers and consummate liars. As are you, Roger. You talk about some countries being basket cases long before America arrived on the scene. I see. So if I stumble across a dying man in the gutter, I should rob him and put the final boot in - since he's a basket case, and it wasn't me who made him that way. You talk utter rubbish, Roger. =================== Britain is responsible for the deaths of ten million people worldwide, or so it seems: http://www.markcurtis.info/book4.html http://www.markcurtis.info/print1c.html How many is America responsible for, I wonder?

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 20, 2005 08:33 AM
"Chomsky and the Far Left loves to simply complex subjects" You're having a laugh! Bush's reason for 9/11: people hate us for our freedoms, for our prosperity, for our tolerance of others, that's why they attacked us, and we must strike back hard to defend America. YOU CAN'T GET MORE SIMPLE OR BRUTAL THAN THIS. Where are the WMD, Roger? Where is the freedom and democracy America promised Iraq? Nowhere in sight! Instead, America is imposing a ruthless capitalist system, scrambling to grab as much of Iraq's wealth as it can - and any Iraqi that gets in the way is BUTCHERED! It tells me Chomsky is worth reading. I am now seeing with my own eyes what I had only previously read about/suspected. Yes, Chomsky simplifies - he has to, otherwise everyone would fall asleep listening to him drone on and on, going into absurd detail, documenting everything. People have to use their common sense. Saints don't become leaders of nations, so even without American's interference, things might not be great. Chomsky is just one man. He can only do so much. He's made his contribution; others have to as well. Chomsky's a tiny cog in a much larger machine of knowledge. Criticism of Chomsky's work IS necessary - as long as it's fair!

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 20, 2005 08:04 AM
Yes, I'm ANTI-AMERICAN - irrationally so! Call me a terrorist for not heaping praise on America. But then I don't heap praise on my own country, either. Could it be that I'm only being fair? "Anti-American" - an absurd term used by absurd people - such as you, Roger! It's YOUR ignorance that's astounding. Propaganda and lying are all you excel at. I've spoken to civilized Americans online; they've heard my views, and we get on just fine. They generally agree with my points, and even give me encouragement and praise - for making the effort to find out what's going on in the world. I've also spoken to Americans who talk about the shocking level of ignorance in their country, and who wish to leave. It's only murderous individuals like you I don't get on with. ZMAG is American. The people who post here are, by and large, English speakers. Hence, I talk about America. What is the point of raving on about the Vietnamese government, say, when it's unlikely anyone from Vietnam is reading this? Also, the Vietnamese don't have the same opportunities the Americans have to change their country. America is a superpower and has an empire. I think that makes the U.S. more important than Vietnam on the world stage, and therefore deserving of more criticism. In 1962, America brought the world to the brink of nuclear war. What the U.S. does - and what the American people think - is therefore very relevant to all our lives.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 20, 2005 07:41 AM
Roger-the-anti-chomsky writes: "The Abyss - what is your problem?" What is yours? Your ego, it seems. Roger THE ANTI-CHOMSKY! No one gives a damn Roger, least of all Chomsky himself. At least Chomsky's made a success of his life. Yours is probably a complete mess - like the logic you employ! "It seems like the name describes you perfectly though..." Does it? It describes where the world is heading, Roger, not me. I've read your posts. The only person Roger cares about is Roger. Life is cheap to Roger - especially the lives of foreigners! "Your hatred of America and even the American people themselves is astounding." Hence, why I've read so much of Chomsky's work - an American! Hence, why I visit sites such as www.democracynow.org - American! www.commondreams.org - American! www.consortiumnews.com - American! www.reclaimdemocracy.org - American! www.irc-online.org - American! dahrjamailiraq.com - American! Hence why I also read American fiction/sci-fi, watch American movies and listen to American music - though not exclusively so! I also watch foreign movies (Truffaut's "The 400 Blows" is excellent, for example), and I like African music.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Rbussell, Roley at Apr 17, 2005 22:35 PM
Depending on what material you read...the Iran policy goes much deeper...and the Iraq story goes very deep too. One thing is true though...if the American people disallowed the Federal Government access to borrowed money, wars like this would not be fought, because it would ruin the economy. Borrowing makes it possible. I doubt, but am unsure, that the US will ever be able to sell enough oil from Iraq to pay all of its war costs. Critical Leverage, yes, military signifigance , yes; but a profitable venture...I doubt it. As Chomsky pointed out...the corporations work in with the government, but would rather just pull cheap oil out of Saudi Arabia...I would. Why stuff around and lose heaps of troops and exacerbate an already ludicrous and indulgent terrorist situation, when you dont have to?

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Shannon_r_white, Shannon at Apr 17, 2005 04:46 AM
Odix, there are very few US "interests" Bush was "protecting" when the US invaded Iraq. The "US with all his corporations and NO Oil"? Do you realize that Iraq's production of oil is now at its lowest in decades? The invasion did little to increase oil production, but really that's not the point. Chomsky is indicating that the US is trying to establish hegemony or at least a significant presence in oil production regions throughout the world. The reason this is being done is to gain leverage over and influence in other regions that depend on those oil producing regions -- China, India, Japan, Europe, for example. In other words, establishing hegemony over oil production regions is a major step towards establishing world-wide hegemony.

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By Organum, Baby at Apr 15, 2005 15:50 PM
But is there ABILITY to change the consumption ? I think not. The technology exists but we would have to change habits BEFORE we were forced to. This would show signs of intelligent behaviour in man. IF on the other hand, man lacks this ability, then I suggest that man is merely a thinking machine that acts solely when played on by the musicians of circumstance. I conclude that globacide robs mans eternal soul of the possibility of being just that ;-)

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Odixux, Odix at Apr 15, 2005 12:56 PM
I was against the Bush administration for the war in Iraq. However Bush had to protect the US interests. Imagine the US with all his big corporations and NO OIL. It would be a catastrophe I think worse than a war. The US community (mostly) is so used to consumption. I think that the whole system will collapse and Osama and all his associates will be out of a job. However by protecting the US ineterests people are dying all over the world. Bush is just postponing a dramatic end to the US empire if he does not change the oil consumption or the foreign policies.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Apr 14, 2005 23:28 PM
Round and round we go! Chomsky talks to the privileged (does he waive his fee, I wonder?); the privileged post their replies; then it starts all over again - just a sheer waste of time! Chomsky, from what I gather, is an atheist. Atheists believe the universe - or whatever mechanism created it - popped into existence all by itself (about as sane as believing God talks to you, I suppose) - so why is Chomsky complaining? Well, I don't think he is. He's had a good life and hasn't risked anything. He's also not very altruistic. Having realized what a terrible world this is, he brings more people into it, not knowing what agony they might have to endure, or what pain they will inflict on others (no one goes through life without hurting others). But, then, most parents are selfish - that's why they're parents! Let the world destroy itself - and let America, "the greatest country in the world", lead the way. Life is an illusion; existence is an illusion; pain and suffering are illusions. It's all one big, bloody, messy illusion. Time we accept the mirage for what it is, and make it disappear once and for all. And with that, time for me to pop out of "existence". "Where'd he go?" "He was never really here."

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Mjdiak, Mjd at Apr 14, 2005 16:32 PM
Yes, your questions are interesting, and they may help to further the conversation and understanding, yet the main sentence that sums up the first two paragraphs - 'Big Oil and the state often conflicts' - does contradict with the main point of the last paragraph - 'They preferred Iraq. The reasons are pretty obvious, and largely have to do with oil' - where Big Oil and the State DO NOT conflict. If chomsky is trying to say that SOMETimes they do and SOMetimes they don't, well then I guess ok but thats kind general for all things. I might be looking at this blog simplisticly. Deeper, he might be talking about individual interest and collective interest and how they don't often go together, but again thats kinda a general for all things. Even in your question you state a probable contradiction between long term (main state) and short term (mainly corporate) interest. I'd image that chomsky was answering a question posed by a concerned person on the obvious implications of the teamwork between Big Oil and the State. He was probably reply that there isn't often team work. Thanks for the comments.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Protocol4, Nemo at Apr 14, 2005 01:31 AM
mjd, "Yet it seems to me the last paragraph contradicts this sentence entirely." No it does not. Again, I refer you to the two questions I posed above....

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Mjdiak, Mjd at Apr 14, 2005 01:02 AM
'Big Oil and the state often conflict' is stated as the first line and the two following paragraphs support this sentence. Yet it seems to me the last paragraph contradicts this sentence entirely.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Jemstein, Greenjazz at Apr 14, 2005 00:44 AM
The more oil the world consumes, the worse the global warming and predicted climate change. The faster the oil is consumed, the quicker the warming. Last time I looked, the daily global consumption was 80 million barrels. Curtailment of the private car and heavily subsidised public transport would help matters; hi-tech insulation and ventilation of buildings, also. Etc etc. The current socio-economic system is not only grossly unfair, it is also a frightening threat to the health of the biosphere. The Left has failed to consider this dual problem deeply enough. We have to construct socio-economic models that are fairer to humnanity in particular and life in general. Old-time egalitarian ideologies, while well-intentioned, are inadequate for modern conditions. We have to embrace technology and somehow filter its valuable qualities from the enormous amount of dangerous and disgusting dross.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Protocol4, Nemo at Apr 13, 2005 23:47 PM
bwong, you are right. But I did not take collective interests to mean only collective material interests (in fact material interests could be conceived as a subset of the larger strategic interests).

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Gammon101, Bwong at Apr 13, 2005 23:24 PM
I think another question one can raise is whether political, strategic interests can always be reduced to economics, whether short term or long term. For example, one can argue that gaining access to oil is a long term economical interests. But I think trying to acquire the power of turning off the tap for others as a way of political blackmail is quite something else. Chomsky himself has argued that the second consideration(control of oil supply) is perhaps more important than the first(access to oil) in motivationg the U.S's policies in the ME.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Protocol4, Nemo at Apr 13, 2005 20:29 PM
Realpc, Read the post carefully. Let me give you two hints: what is the difference between individual interest and collective interest? and is it possible for long-term collective interest to deviate from(if not directly contradict) short-term individual interest? Think about the two questions for a while and hopefully you will get your answer.

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Re: Global Dominance: Oil vs. The State

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Apr 13, 2005 19:13 PM
Is he saying that big oil and the US gov are not in league? What's his complaint?

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