"I'm Jealous of Cuba"
"I'm Jealous of Cuba"
For the brief span of an hour, Gore Vidal agreed to chat with us for this interview. He is the most erudite American writer of his generation and the most corrosive critic of the present Republican administration. But Vidal does not simply speak to us. He interprets what he says. Modulating his voice, he brings to life George W. Bush, Eisenhower, FDR, an obscure Pentagon bureaucrat, and even himself, mocking all of them with the irony contained in a visage that belies his 81 years of age.
He is more interested in being remembered as an historian than as a novelist. Although his works easily triple his age (we can find in his bibliography novels, tragedies, comedies, memoirs, essays, film and television screenplays), he has a singular obsession: the loss of the Republic. "The main bit of wisdom that I learned from Thomas Jefferson, and he from Montesquieu, is that we cannot maintain both a Republic and an Empire simultaneously. We have been rapacious imperialists since the Mexican War in 1846."
The Birth of an Empire
RM: In Inventing a Nation: Washington, Adams and Jefferson, you talked about the first imperialist war in modern history, with the intervention of the
GV: American imperialist history started long before. It was inevitable that the original English settlers, not to mention the Dutch and the French who occupied the eastern seaboard of the
Ironically the third president, Thomas Jefferson, who gave us our identity in the declaration of independence, had recourse to weapons. He not simply told us that all men are created equal, but that they have inalienable
rights: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. No government had ever said that before. So we began in a rather special place, it didn't last long thanks to Jefferson, he bought up that which is now 20 States and made the famous Louisiana purchase. Millions of people were added to the
RM: Up to that time the Americans had been furious land conquerors, but only in their own continent.
GV: Our first deliberate imperial president, (Jefferson was a reluctant imperialist), was Theodore Roosevelt, and he was looking around for more property to add to the
First as William McKinley's vice president, and later, when he died, as president of the
because it is the richest section in minerals, in mining, in energy and the Chinese empire was crashing. All of Europe was trying to get a piece of
RM:
GV: Yes. That's when we made an alliance with the Philippine insurgents, revolutionaries, who wanted to separate from
movement in the
RM: So, they went marching off to war
GV: So he went to war; the first thing Roosevelt did – McKinley was out of
Hypocrisy is always terribly funny. McKinley said "I got down and prayed to God, after we seized
President, they're already Roman Catholic," and McKinley said "that's what I mean!" So there we were on a religious mission in the
RM: During your years in
GV: Well, I thought that our expansion was finished in 1898. Between 1846 when we got
Mario Monteforte Toledo, a good friend of mine, was vice president of
He used to come to
Simultaneously, the ironies of history, Henry Cabot Lodge – son of the Henry Cabot Lodge who was a
We know what happened afterwards. They forced Arévalo to leave
Mark Twain said after our refusal to grant free government to the Filipinos, "the American flag should be replaced not with the stars and stripes, forget them, it should be the Jolly Roger, the skull and crossbones, because we bring murder wherever we go."
Banana Republic
RM: in The Golden Age you said FDR could have avoided the Pearl Harbor attack that took the
GV: Well nations, like individuals, tend to work from templates; there is a plan in their heads which worked once before and may work yet again. We've always found that whenever a president is murdered it's always a "lone crazed killer" who is evil. He does it for no reason. No reason is ever given because we might find out what the politics behind it were. The American people are never told the politics about anything. So we've always had this reluctance. Our rulers don't want us to know why things are done.
So Roosevelt, with the best will in the world, saw that Hitler would be dangerous not only to Europe but in the long run to the
It was a brilliant plot and it worked. The Japanese had just signed an alliance with
Everybody thinks, how crazy it was for this little country to attack such a big country as the United States, well they weren't crazy, what they intended to do, was give us a big shock, which would make us think about other things for a time, by attacking, sinking the fleet at Pearl Harbor.
During that period they thought it would take the
RM: You were a privileged observer of that pre-war period.
GV: I was raised in Washington D.C. during the Roosevelt administration. So Roosevelt, during our economic depression, designated 8 billion dollars to re arm the United States. 1940 marked the end of massive unemployment. For the first time in years, people were quite content, because we'd had the depression and we were on our way to have the greatest war machine on earth, something which has since become a curse.
RM: Do you blame Harry Truman for the United States becoming the authoritarian country it is today? Many Americans do not share this opinion.
George W. Bush, for example, has said recently that the man who dropped the bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a good president.
GV: Well, remember two things: most Americans have no information at all on history, on geography, or on what's going on in the world. They don't know about these things. Roosevelt had made arrangements so that we would detach the colonies from France, Holland, Portugal. By 1945 when the war in Europe and in Asia ended, we would get them, and we would become their masters.
Americans knew none of this, and they still don't know. They're not taught this; the rulers do not want them to know it.
Truman was personally rather popular. He was a nice little man. He knew nothing at all about geography, history, religion, he knew nothing. Behind him he had a Prince Metternich, who was Dean Achinson, the Secretary of State, a great international lawyer. And he knew everything. He was the one who then designed the totally militarized state that emerged by 1949/50 under Harry Truman. And it all comes down to one document, the National Security Council document number 68. There were several points. We were to be forever at war with somebody. We were going to fight communism everywhere on earth even if it didn't threaten us. It was a holy war, just as now we've made one on terrorism and Islam, equally stupid and equally irrelevant.
The man who should have been president in 1945 was Henry Wallace. However, he was replaced by a Mr. Nobody, a southern right winger named Harry Truman, from Missouri; who took over the government when Roosevelt died on April 12, 1945.
So we got a terrible president because he was so bad that they built him up into an idol, everybody's. Everybody who knows nothing admires Harry Truman, and they don't know why. He's just such a nice little man. He was a nice little man, but he ended the Republic and set us on this wave of conquest.
He went yelling and screaming to the people that the Soviet Union was on the march, that they were about to seize Greece, that they were immediately going into Italy, they could then cross over to France, and cross the Atlantic at any time. We hear echoes of this in the current little man, Mr.
Bush, who says: [imitating GW Bush] "well we can't fight them over there we're going to have to fight 'em over here." We don't have to fight them; they have no way of getting here. But no American can ask questions like that because they will be thought unpatriotic or silly.
RM: According to your own words, "the Oklahoma City bombings in 1995 are explained according to a law of Physics: there is a reaction to every action". You were speaking about the hatred spread by the United States around the world and in its own country. Was this a prophecy?
GV: Well I wouldn't directly connect it with what happened on 9/11. What happened after McVeigh did what he did, except that we now know that he really didn't do it by himself, somebody else was involved, quite a few people were involved. But essentially the Clinton administration ¬and we now look back on it as being a very American one, in the best sense of the word – drew up his Draconian rules about terrorism in the United States just to get revenge on the ghost of Timothy McVeigh.
And that became the USA Patriot Act. After 9/11 happened the Bush Administration found these papers, from the Clinton administration in the Justice Department. They activated all of them and that is the USA Patriot Act. It has just about removed our Constitution. It just annulled everything about sacred liberties and that was the result of McVeigh.
A child of five who knows nothing about the law can tell you that 9-11 requires a police response. We've been hit by the Mafia. You can't go to war without an enemy nation to attack. You can't have a war without a country, try and explain that to an American, I don't think they know what a country is. We certainly know 80% of them believe that Saddam Hussein that had a country called Iraq was working in tandem with Osama Bin Laden, who was living in a beautiful palace in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It's all nonsense.
They had no connection the two. But Bush wanted to complete the work of his father, and to show that he was bolder than his father, he would be "Bush of Baghdad" not quite Lawrence of Arabia. Americans think they are the same person, and that both of them attacked us on 9/11.
RM: A recent CBS poll shows that 75% of the population in the US is not in favor of him or his policies. His popularity has plummeted to historic levels. Will Bush be the most hated president in US history?
GV: When I said I am not a prophet that doesn't mean I can't occasionally guess what's coming. I knew that what those they call the neo conservatives in the United States (the old word that was used to describe them was "fascist"), they want to use American power in order to get the corporations which are generally gas and oil to maximize profits. They want to manipulate the constitution so that it is rendered meaningless. They want supreme power, and circumstances allowed us to elect a man that's a real fool, literally a fool.
If the American people had a free press, an alert media, he could never have been elected anything. He's not competent; if you listen to him talk for ten minutes its clear he doesn't know what he is talking about. He's desperately trying to read a teleprompter and nothing really makes sense, and without one of his advisors he can't face anybody when it comes to a question.´
Since Woodrow Wilson left the oval office in 1921, no US president writes his own speeches. The president reads what other people write. Sometimes the President agrees with it, and sometimes he doesn't. Eisenhower used to read his speeches as if he were discovering something new on the paper. During his first presidency, the country was astonished when he said in the middle of a speech: "If I'm elected president I will go to Korea!?" He was serious.
Nobody had said anything to him before that surprise. But anyway, he went to Korea.
Well had the American people seen that and if we had a media that was interested in the Republic, and not in profits, the whole story would have been different; after all, Albert Gore did win the election in 2000 by the popular vote, some 600,000 votes ahead of Bush. And eventually the intervention of the Supreme Court into that election falsified the entire election. So we became overnight a banana republic without any bananas to sell. And that is our problem at the moment.
RM. The Bush administration has led the country into such a disaster that Fidel himself said recently that he believes the United States public will oust President Bush before he finishes his term. Do you see this happening?
GV: The people running the Bush Administration are so mindless and radical that they're apt to start bombing Russia, or start bombing Iran. They would have to start a diversion, so they can scream: "true patriots come to the aid of the Commander in Chief in war time" [imitates Bush]. That's their rubric. Well that's all nonsense. In other words, they create events. They create panic.
Two days after 9/11 there was somebody in the government saying, "it's not if they attack again, it's when!" The nonsense had already begun. Then we say, well it's been seven or eight years and they haven't attacked and they say "well that's because of the precautions that we take at the airports oh!
You don't like them! Because you have to take your shoes off, but at the same time that is what has saved you from an attack." Well, prove it! We can't prove it, they retort, without revealing our secret sources. It's circular.
I hope that the Democratic Congress which comes in, with the chairmanships of congressional committees, including the Judiciary, gets every last one of them under oath before Congress to answer these questions.
RM: What would be necessary to re-establish the Republic?
GV: Listen to the great words of our greatest president, Mr. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, at his first inauguration. The country was collapsing, economically the banks were coming down, money was short, and he struck a great political note which other presidents have generally imitated until we get down to this junta he said [imitating Roosevelt] "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." That is the basis of the Republic. Don't be taken in by fear. There are people who make money out of fear. That's their job, just to frighten.
I'm not for real revolutions, because they always bring you the opposite of what you want. The French Revolution brought the world Napoleon Bonaparte, Louis XVI after all, was not as bad as that. So you very seldom get what you want if you have a violent revolution. I think we're going to have one due to economic collapse.
There was a headline in one of the big American papers the other day that the army was begging the administration for money. They don't have the money to make fools of themselves in Baghdad. They've got to raise it somewhere; we have no tax revenues because all the rich people have been exempted from tax as well as corporations. It used to be that 50% of the revenues of the Federal government came from the taxes on corporate profits. Its about 8% now, they've just eliminated it. Corporations don't pay tax and rich people don't either. So they've not only helped all their rich friends who now have enough money to finance the Republican Party with billions of dollars so they can tell lies about anybody in the country and pretend that the patriots of the country are traitors. It's a very good trick both economically for them and it's a bad trick on us real Americans, we don't like it. We've lost the Bill of Rights; we lost the Magna Carta, on which all of our liberties are based for 700 years. No, it's not been an amusing time.
We have a crisis of rights
RM: In your memoirs, you mention that during a conversation with JFK he told you about his plan to assassinate Fidel, and that his alliance with the extreme Cuban American right had become a nightmare for him and his brother, Robert. Are these groups related to their deaths?
GV: Well it had total control, I think it is much less now, Kennedy had to give his life for it, you know. Though the assassination we now know was done by Mafia, out of New Orleans, and a man called [Carlos] Marcello was in charge of it. They were trying to get Bobby Kennedy. Marcello who was the boss of New Orleans and also of the Havana casinos at one point, [Santos] Trafficante who ran the Mafia in Tampa Florida, said we've got to get rid of Bobby, they have this recorded, the FBI. We've got to get rid of him, and Marcello said, "if a dog bothers you, you don't cut off the tail," and that was the death sentence for Jack Kennedy.
RM: What is your perception of the true influence this Cuban American community has had on US policy towards Cuba in the last 40 years?
GV: They managed to have an enormous influence on the country, and I think this is less now. This has always been a very corrupt state; Florida has been a corrupt state from the beginning, from the days of the confederacy.
The addition of a bunch of angry Batista lovers did not help the political situation down there, and a lot of these people had a lot of money or they made a lot of money and could be counted upon to support anybody who hated Castro and hated what is being done in the modern Cuba and they'd vote for him. Florida is a big state, it's a key State. We have something called an electoral college which often decides elections and it has so many voters which are based on how many representatives get elected to Congress and so on. Well Florida is beautifully situated for any demagogue who appeals to the Batistaites, or just anybody who still wants to fight communism. They're still marching, and they're going to arrive on the beaches in no time at all. They are very slow to understand, obviously, partly because they've been misinformed, misinformed. By their government, by the media, which worked with the government. And so we have a misinformed population and Florida is still one of the first places candidates go to and try and get votes. But it's much less now, so, count on that, it's a bit of luck.
It's a very complex 18th century machinery to keep us from having democracy.
Our founders didn't like democracy, I find I often have to repeat that a few times, but they didn't like it. And now of course we're bringing democracy to Iraq and all these other countries who are longing for it.
RM: Silence and lies have kept five Cubans unjustly imprisoned in the US.
Could you comment on what you know about the case and your opinion on it?
GV: I know of the case through lawyers, not through the media. And it seems another stupid thing our government is doing. It is my understanding that President Clinton and President Castro got together on this one, to try and stop the terrorists in Miami who were bombing tourist offices to discourage tourism to this country. The two presidents were in agreement that this was a bad thing and that they should try and stop it. So Clinton put the FBI on it and I don't know what Castro did, but he went along with it and then the FBI suddenly starts to arrest five Cubans who were dedicated to protecting Cuba and innocent tourist owners of tourist agencies from terrorism, from bombers.
We love imprisoning people almost as much as we like the death penalty which is just the brightest star in our diadem. So you have a country mad about torture, murder, and execution, lifelong sentences in prison. The mindset is all there, it goes back to I'm not going to go into the background but it is protestant Puritanism: everyone must suffer, if they've done anything wrong.
If you're rich God loves you: that's the proof. And if you're poor, he doesn't like you: that's the proof. It's not a healthy mindset for any people and I'm afraid the State of Florida has got a great many of those people as well as what they've picked up from the Batistaites.
So, the Five, the Cuban Five as they are known in legal circles in America, I think are all in prison with what seem like eternal sentences for having obeyed two presidents one here and one in America to stop these crazy bombers from killing innocent civilians.
And the government that will do that, knowing the consequences, you know our government in not as stupid as it seems, it does evil things because that's the way you keep control. Don't think they didn't learn a lot from the twentieth century dictatorships. And so it is very important that they behave like this to insure that we don't stop the people who are bombing the tourist agencies in Miami. We are now almost lawless because we've lost so many of our protections under the Constitution. So we have a crisis of law, a crisis of politics, and a constitutional crisis.
RM: Oliver Stone was recently sanctioned by the US State Department for violating the blockade against Cuba. His crime was traveling to Cuba to make two documentaries about Fidel. Are these measures constitutional?
Gore Vidal: Well of course it's a violation, as the first amendment grants us freedom of speech, the fourth amendment of the constitution is the bill of rights, which guarantees our rights to assembly and so forth. We have had since 9/11 a coup d’etat in the United States, the first we've ever had, in which a group of rather dishonest oil and gas people were able to seize the power of the State and by so doing they ended up with the Congress in their hands, they ended up with the presidency and much of the judiciary and much of the courts. It happened very fast. It's quite unique. It will be a great story one day at the moment it's just something the people don't understand.
What they've never seen before doesn't exist really. Well they're seeing it now, in situ, as archaeologists, and it's a very unpleasant sight. Out of that come the sanctions, as you put it, on Oliver Stone, who has every right to make any movie that he wants to make and in whatever circumstance, as long as he breaks no laws, and no laws have been broken here. They [Bush and Cheney] just don't like it, oh! My goodness me!
RM: Are you afraid of any reprisals against you when you return to the US?
GV: I trust they'll never like anything I say or write or do.
RM: One last question. You've been here for a few days already. Is Cuba anything like what the media presents to North Americans?
GV: [Laughs] Are you crazy?!!! NO! We're told everybody hates it here; everybody is starving to death, and they put out stories in Cuba on how they have wonderful doctors but in fact they are terrible doctors and nobody goes to them, any Cuban who is sick goes to the Mayo Clinic in America!
There is no lie that our government will not tell and has not told. So no correct picture gets through. One of the reasons I'm doing television here, is I feel every now and then I do have some audience out there. I can talk about what I've seen. I've seen the influx of doctors, would be doctors into Cuba. I've been in that building which used to be a Russian Naval Base, and is dedicated to teaching a whole generation about medicine, about community services, something Americans hate, you know, everybody is help for himself, grab all the money you can and then run away, to Tahiti or someplace. I was talking to 8 or 9 Americans from New York, Massachusetts, who are studying medicine here. I said, "well, is it as good as they say," they said, "oh yes it is, its rather better, better than anything we could get at home, going to ordinary medical universities." Why don't we do the same for the health of our people and other countries? I see what you've done with medicine, from Africa to the deepest Amazon or wherever.
We had a great Constitution, and a great legal system. Only by the restoration of that can we have a country with aspirations and with indeed successes like Cuba. Don't think I don't get extremely jealous for the United States, since I am a super patriot; I get very jealous.
RM: Will you return?
GV: Never make predictions.
Rosa Miriam Elizalde is a Cuban journalist living in Havana. She is the editor of Cubadebate, a Cuban online publication, and she has a weekly column in Cuba's daily newspaper Juventud Rebelde. She is the author of several books, including Los Disidentes, Chavez Nuestro and El Encuentro.


