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"I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Paul Street at Mar 01, 2005

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In all the intra-leftist debate that took place over Michael Moore's movie Fahrenheit 9-11, one of the film's contradictions escaped notice. I am referring to the interesting tension between Moore's repeated declarations of heartfelt, patriotic, and middle-Americam concern for the GIs in Iraq ("will they ever forgive us?" Moore asked) and his disturbing clips of US troops cranking up the heavy metal in eager anticipation of inflicting serious murderous hurt on evil Arabs. After the movie I spoke with a recent secondary school graduate who qualified his praise for the flick by remembering that many of the guys in his high high school were "all gung-ho to join the Marines so they can kill 'sandniggers' and nice stuff like that. I mean I understand what Moore is doing when he holds these guys up as victims, maybe that's the intelligent political thing, but the fact is that a lot of these guys are big time racist sexist bastards and they are looking for an excuse to perpetrate crimes against humanity legally. They've been killing people in an imaginary way with video games for years and now they want to do the real thing. I know a lot of these guys." On that disturbing note, I highly recommend Kathy Dobie's recent feature article in Harpers Magazine (March 2005): "AWOL in America: When Desertion is the Only Option." Dobie tells the story of recent military recruits who can't handle the military's frankly genocidal ethos. Here is a reflection in a letter home from one recruit --- whose fictional name is Jeremiah --- stuck between Army Reception and Basic Training: "It's hard for me to be myself here. There's no room for dissent among the guys. Everywhere you listen you hear an abundant amount of B.S., a few beds over an obnoxious redneck has a crowd around him as he details a 3 some that he recently had. The vocabulary is different here. The bathroom is called the latrine, food is called chow, women are bitches, sex is ass....These people want to go to war and kill. It is that simple." Significantly, these comments come from a period prior to the Basic Training, when the recruits are "broken down" and turned into killers. The authoritarian familial, mass cultural, and educational system already have many of the troops ready to butcher "the enemy" en masse. Before Basic Training, "Jeremiah" relates an interesting exchange with another recruit during a conversation in which wannabe soldiers expressed "enthusiasm for battle, for killing." When "Jeremiah" says that "it might be better to wound someone than to kill him," another recruit says "Fuck that. I'm putting two in in the chest, one in the head just like I'm going to be trained to do." Again, this is before the real military indoctrination begins. As for Basic Training, here is a chilling paragraph from Dobie: "The next day, a sergeant addressed the recruits with a speech that Jeremiah says he'll never forget. 'You know, when I joined the Army nine years ago people always asked me why I joined. Did I do it for college money? Did I do it for women? People never understood. I wanted to join the Army because I wanted to shoot motherfuckers.' The room erupted in hoots and hollers. A drill sergeant said something about an Iraqi coming up to them screaming , 'Ah-la-lal-la-la' in a high-pitched voice, and how he would have to be killed. After that, all Arabs were referred to by this battle cry - the ah-la-la-la-la-las. In the barracks they played war. One recruit would come out of the shower wearing a towel on his head, screaming 'Ah-la-lal-la!! and the other recruits would pretend to shoot him dead." This reminds me of growing up white in post-WWII America making pretend "Indian" noises by hooting while patting your mouth with your hand: woo-woo-woo-woo-woo. When "Jeremiah" freaks out and decides he's got to get out of this apparent fascist nuthouse called the US Army, he talks to the military chaplain, "who cited Bible passages proving that God was against murder, not killing, and told Jeremiah that Iraqis were running up to American troops requesting Bibles." I'll understand if you have to read that one again. We have taxpayer-supported Army chaplains telling recruits that God is down with killing and that the Muslim people we are illegally occupying, robbing, maiming, and killing are just dying to receive pseudo-Christian American Bibles. Later a drill sergeant goes "apopleptic" on "Jeremiah" and screams to him that "killing is the ultimate thrill in life and every single man wants to kill...it's every man's job to kill, it's the greatest high, it's our animal instinct, our animal desire." And we have righteous American "conservatives"and liberals freaking out and calling for Ward Churchill's head because he made some harsh, politically off-color (I would say unfortunate) comments about nasty things that happen when you reject international law and institutions and inflict imperial crimes on Arab and other world citizens. Later in the article, Dobie does a good job showing how the US military consciously pursues murder-de-sensitization in Basic Training (because WWII studies showed that that war's civilian soliders generally didn't want to kill the enemy). Dobie also details various deceptions that recruiters conduct in order to rope young men and women into the rolling slaughterhouses of empire. Still, the article reinforced my admittedly anecdotal sense that some of the incoming GIs are more than a little ready and even in some cases eager for the racist, mass-murderous training and indoctrination to which they are subjected and that we have their parents and teachers and our mass media --- and our broadly racist and classist "homeland" (lovely word, that) --- to thank for that sorry situation. I'll try to be more cheerful (I'm going to watch Oprah tonight) in my next post.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Stdbkr, Gotammo at Jul 08, 2005 11:09 AM
If they kill one of us. We should kill 100 of them. We don't have to be natzi's, but they have to learn. What ever they do to us we hit back ten fold. They bomb a building, we nuke a city. Either they get tired of loosing there wife and children as we do, or there wont be any left.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Howiedoody, Antibius at Mar 10, 2005 06:40 AM
Exactly the point Paul. The soldier's in Iraq that enjoy being there, are just as much victims. Victims of a society that educates them into ignorance; into naively hating any society that thinks differently. The purpose being, to have an army of soldiers at command to serve the needs and demands of the wealthy and privelaged members of (in this case) the U.S.. Mr Moore's synicism of U.S. government is accurate beyond imagination. The curriculum of public shcools was revamped by one of the 'Rockefeller' senators fifty years ago to inspire a worldly ignorant and thereby aggressively, defensive society. His whole mandate is about the lies, manipulation, and hypocracy of the U.S. government. I belive that one has to be sensational to make that point. Even then people just refuse to believe.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 05, 2005 00:26 AM
"But for me, part of treating them as criminals means making arrests and if there is a government sheltering terrorists then they are aiding and abetting criminals and they need to be arrested as well." There has been something about this logic that has bothered me for sometime. First, how do we know that they are "sheltering terrorists", pre-9-11 were we "sheltering" the terrrorists here, because they lived here for two years. Second, as history will show you a freind one day is the next days terrorist or enemy. The use of violence is terrorism no matter what your ideological stance, islomic state or capitalist (psydo)-democracy.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 22:29 PM
Nemo, I totally agree with approaching the problem of terrorists and their supporters like criminals as the Europeans do. I've always supported that idea. But for me, part of treating them as criminals means making arrests and if there is a government sheltering terrorists then they are aiding and abetting criminals and they need to be arrested as well. There was a while there, right after 9/11, that I thought we would be able to make some arrests. Unfortunately we blew all of our political momentum and international support on capturing oil fields instead. Now we couldn't do it even if we wanted to. The only way now for there to be a renewed interest in regime changes in the middle east would be if there was a significant attack in Britain, France or Germany. Which you would think wouldn't happen considering how Britain, France and Germany are trying to broker a peace agreement. But I wouldn't bet my life on it because terrorists have as much interest in peace as Bush does.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Protocol4, Nemo at Mar 04, 2005 20:06 PM
Here Chomsky has a very good (and pragmatic) solution. Treat the terrorists like criminals and bring them to justice with the help of other governments. On the other hand address some of the genuine issues and sources of discontent (Israel-Palastine, bases all over the middle east)that might lead people to sympathize with such millitants.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 20:01 PM
If we ever got the chance, that is.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 20:00 PM
Actually I don't assume that at all. In fact I assume exactly what you do, that THIS administration that we have now doesn't have ANY of my preferences or ideals. I think that Bush could fuck up a cup of coffee. I'm talking about what we as progressives think and what would we do?

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Protocol4, Nemo at Mar 04, 2005 19:47 PM
Hesed, there is a logical problem in your argument. Even allowing for the fact that "we" need to do something about the bad guys (which in itself is debatable), you are assuming that the U.S. government--rather state--will have the same preferences as you do. How do you know that the government's reason for intervening is the same as yours (e.g. emancipation of women etc)? How do you know that the imperialist policies you talk about will not be repeated spawning more "bad guys" and in turn more intervention?

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 19:39 PM
MTBrad, I know they were questions, but since I never implied any of the ideas posed in your questions, I don't feel a need to defend positions which aren't even mine.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 19:36 PM
See, this is what I'm talking about when I say that progressives ideas are, for the most part, correct and at the same time incomplete. American impersialism and policy IS the major problem but the guys running the show (who we put in business) are also the problem. You think that by fixing the problem on our side that it will fix the problem over there and I agree with HALF of that statement. All I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that after nearly 100 years of this shit, that changinhg our policy ALONE ,now, at this late time in the game, is the magic bullet that will get the genie back in the bottle.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 04, 2005 19:24 PM
And my horse and buggy comment was amied at Al quida and OBL, not iran.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 04, 2005 19:22 PM
Hesed, Those were questions.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 19:19 PM
MTBrad, what the hell are you talking about? I NEVER SAID, NOR INFERRED ANY OF THAT. I simply pointed out the fact that when you said "they will go back to the cart and buggy" and that they seek to be "isolationists" that you are 100% incorrect.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 04, 2005 18:27 PM
Hesed, How would Iran getting a nuclear energy hurt us? How would them getting a nuclear weapon hurt us? How would this change the ever increasing downturn in the US economy and the accompaning squeeze on the poor? How would this stop the killing in Iraq? How would it affect the relationship between the core and periphery and the inequality between the North and South? Of course they are seeking nuke's, it is the only deturent to a US invasion and oil grab.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 10:16 AM
MTBrad, I wouldn't exactly call developing a nuclear energy program "going back to the horse and buggy". And in case you didn't know they just made huge energy deals with China and Russia which I wouldn't characterize as isolationist. You are misinformed.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 04, 2005 09:04 AM
As has been said, the Islamic fudamentalists seek to remove the nation state and seek to become removed from the global system or isolationists. This means if we leave them alone they will leave us alone, end of story. They will go back to the cart and buggy, and the US govenment can go back to picking on blacks and other minorities back home.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 04, 2005 08:55 AM
"Now we can placate and accomodate them but that will simply ensure that they will be back later to shake us down again." How about if we just leave them alone, let them deal with their own corrupt govenments. Then we can take care of ours. Like there would ever be a progressive president, good one.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 07:43 AM
Nemo, for the most part, I agree. But a "sit back and see" approach alone is not going to change the situation. I think what most people are saying is accurate...just not complete. Making nice-nice in the middle east, alone, is not going to make terrorism and Islamic extremism go away. We need to be actively exerting constant pressure on them or else we'll just end up getting played. I don't think some of the people here can recognize a shake-down when they see one and that's exactly what they're doing to us. Now we can placate and accomodate them but that will simply ensure that they will be back later to shake us down again. The idea of making concessions and placating terrorists and their supporters just doesn't make sense to me. No more than Bush's ideas make sense to me. Graeme, people use that word "fascism" opportunistically every single day around here. They use it to describe everyone and everything they are against because it serves their purpose. So why are you singling me out for doing the same?

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Protocol4, Nemo at Mar 04, 2005 06:38 AM
My first post here; Hesed, I have to disagree. The very reason the mullahs and other assorted fundamentalists have any appeal is that domestic regimes in the respective countries got rid of all other opposition with the help of uncle sam (Eisenhower back in the day actually thought that the muslims--Iranians in particular-- were not fundamentalist enough to resist communism!). So once there is a viable and legitimate opposition in such countries independent of both the United States and the fundamentalists and if such opposition is allowed to actually exist (by the U.S., the domestic regimes or the mullahs), I suspect that most of the terrorism problem will be taken care of. On the other hand increasing threat from the United States could only lead to greater support for the fundamentalists. All this is now new and sensible leftists have been saying this ad nauseum.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 06:22 AM
Bwong, thanks for the article. I am very interested in womens rights. I guess Bushco made some remarks about it no longer being necessary to honor the commitments made at the NGO conference on global womens rights from 10 years ago. (Remeber, Hillary made a good speach) I can't remember where I read it but I'll try to find it.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 06:07 AM
I'm not in complete opposition to the rationale here Graeme. My real concern is that progressives may be slightly in denial about who are adversaries are because the truth about what may need to be done is too ugly for them. For instance, let's say we have a progressive President sitting in the White House when the next terrorist attack comes. Is he going to step out of the Oval Office and respond with, "I guess we need to send more reparations"? I hope not. I hope that a progressive would have the presence of mind to recognize when it's time to take off the gloves and do what needs to be done. I don't know if that is the case because progressives never talk about war except to say "never do it" and I don't agree with that.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 05:52 AM
Graeme, just to be petty, here's the definition I found: Main Entry: fas·cism Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m 1 : often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 04, 2005 04:15 AM
As for what should the U.S do with Iran, here is an article I think both Graeme and Hesed would find very interesting (I do) http://www.peacewomen.org/un/ecosoc/IranFriend.html The U.S and Iran are actually allies on the very issue which the mullahs should be condemned without question. "The American delegation joined with Iran, Pakistan, Sudan, Libya and others in efforts to delete a phrase - included in previously agreed-upon UN statements dating back a decade - that calls on countries to condemn violence against women and "refrain from invoking any custom, tradition or religious consideration" to avoid the obligation to stop the violence."

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 04, 2005 04:14 AM
Graeme, I think you're really being nitpicking about the trem "Islamo-fascists". We all know what it means even though it may not be technically correct for political science exams. Even though I disagree with Hesed's remedy I think his characterization of the Islamists is not far off.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 04, 2005 02:16 AM
Graeme, I know what Fascism means, I was trying to make a point to hesed by altering his term.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 04, 2005 01:56 AM
We are the cause of the "Islamo-fascism", and what ever we replace it with will also be bad. A Emphatically bad empire cannot impose a good government on a foriegn country. We should work on fixing our own country first. There are plenty of capito-fascists here to deal with. Plenty of blood for you to spill right here at home hesed!

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Mar 04, 2005 01:52 AM
"But do I really have to list all the acts of violence in history that have resolved conflict?" Oh please do.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 01:41 AM
What's happened over here on the left? Did I miss a memo? Fighting fascists isn't en vogue anymore? It's like I'm sitting at a table of people who all want omelettes just so long as no eggs get broken in the process. I guess what I want to know is that if by throwing in with progressives, am I endorsing a group of people who will know when it's time to take their hand off the chicken-switch and have the conviction to authorize force, even if it means someone, somewhere may get hurt or killed? Yes , violence CAN beget violence. But do I really have to list all the acts of violence in history that have resolved conflict?

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 04, 2005 01:22 AM
OK, first of all, I used the term "Islamo-fascism" because it adequately describes the political circumstance of the region. So to put it in a parenthetical as if to say "you're just making that up, Hesed. There's no such thing as Islamo-fascism" kinda pisses me off and it does nothing to make me believe that the people I'm talking with have a grasp on political reality. If what they practice isn't fascism with an Islamic doctrine, then WHAT IS IT? That being said, I'm in favor of reparations too...after we get rid of of the guys who are strapping C4 to young men and sending them off to be martyrs. NO WAY WILL I EVER ENDORSE PROPPING UP ANOTHER GROUP OF FASCISTS, EVEN UNDER THE PRETENSE OF REPARATIONS. IT WAS WRONG WHEN OUR FATHERS DID IT AND IT WOULD BE WRONG FOR US TO DO IT!

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 04, 2005 00:42 AM
We should remove our military presence and pay massive ongoing reparations to the Middle East as the beginning of compensation for our momumental crimes (which include the encouragement of reactionary forces inside the Muslim world) against that region. Stop attacking and start repairing is the best way we can counter the "Islamo fascist" threat within Middle East.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 04, 2005 00:40 AM
Drying up the reservoirs is precisely the point. On how "we" (well "our" US policymakers) have been feeding the reservoirs of "Islamo-fascism" (not sure that's a very useful phrase) for quite some time (going back to our opposition to Nassar) and up through neoliberal era, I recommend Gilbert Achcar, The Clash of Barbarisms (2002) and Tariq Ali, The Clash of Fundamentalisms (2003). The radical reactionaries on both sides of this are fueling eachothers' repressive rage and power...some of the same game as Cold War come to think of it. Achcar argues that neoliberalism helps drive Islamo-fundamentalism at the same as it drives American neoconservatism and neoimperialism. Whatever, UBL and his ilk thank God regularly for America's "ass-kicking" reponse to 9/11 --- a great boon to them and maybe what they had in mind in part.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 03, 2005 20:51 PM
Oh, and for the people who think that this wave of Islamic extremisms has nothing to do with expanding the Muslim empire, I urge them to go to: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/ and read up on the salafi jihadists who are currently in Europe to see that extremist Muslim expansionism is EXACTLY what they're after. They blew up the train in Madrid right before their election. Why? To get troops out of Iraq, right? WRONG. Because shortly after that attack, Spain did pull its troops our of Iraq and guess what?...they just busted several more terrorist cells in Spain. One of which was planning an attack on their soccer arena. Yeah, bowing to their threats worked great for them. These are the people supported by Iran's regime. So don't try to convince me that negotiating with them is the right thing to do. I have no interest in placating them and making sure that they feel happy and safe as our neighbor. I don't know why other progressives do?

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 03, 2005 20:21 PM
bwong, you don't know how happy it makes me to see that at least one person here can ADMIT that the Mullahs are brutal fascists. And No, I don't think the best way of adressing our problems here is to take care of the ones in the middle east. I'm saying, that even if we all woke up tomorrow to find Bush and company serving life sentences, corporate control of information and natural resources dismantled, open political discourse and universal health care for all...I would STILL want to see the regime in Iran fall. And if that meant force, then so be it. Becuase a good person, which we all want to be, does the right thing, even when it's messy and difficult. And no matter what anyone tries to say, dismantling power structures like the one in Iran is a good thing.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 03, 2005 09:03 AM
Granted that sometimes there is no other ways to remove an oppressive regime except through violence. But that should be the decison for the citizens in that country to make. (Civil)Wars carry a heavy price. It is up to the people themselves to decide whether it is worth it. Outside powers have no moral right to make that decision, even with the best intentions like Hesed (which is highly unlikely in the real world)

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 03, 2005 08:42 AM
btw, Hesed, I don't think you believe for a moment that the way to fight "Fascists here" would be to send a bunch of super buffed, probably druged up psycho killers armed with tanks and bombers to do some seriouis "skull cracking" and flatten your entire neighbourhood in the process. Why do you think this is teh appropiate way to deal with the "mullahs"?

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 03, 2005 08:36 AM
Western missionaries are travelling to many Islamic countries to convert people. American based Christian "charities" are now all over Tsunamei ravaged Asia using disaster relief as a cover for evangelizing. This is in very bad taste, to put it very mildly. No Muslim come all the way from the ME to aggressively convert Americans to Islam as far as I know. I don't think Americans would tolerated that for a moment, like many people elsewhere who have put up with ass hole evangelists for god knows how long. So it is us who are trying to impose "our" will on other people, not the other way.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 03, 2005 08:35 AM
The U.S has military bases all over the ME, propping up and removing governments at will. I can't name any Iranian military base in the U.S. Nor could I think of any instance where the Mullahs dictate who should collect garbage in American cities, let alone running the white house. The West is aggressively "exporting" neoliberalism and the market theology to the ME and the rest of the world through the agencies of bodies such as the world bank, the IMF and sometimes the U.S marine.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 03, 2005 08:33 AM
"So if opposing fascism HERE is good, why is my desire to fight it in Iran BAD? The fact that our actions in the middle east have been terribly destructive does not change the reality that the men in charge in Iran are, dare I say, BRUTAL and should be removed." Hesed The men who are brutal should be removed. But by whom? I am no friend of "mullahs"(which the Syrians aren't, btw) and "islamo -facists" as Graeme can attest to based on our little exchange over the treatment of women in some "islamic" cultures. But I have to say you're going a bit overboard here. First of all, your point that if the Mullahs have their ways they would cut your head off or make you pray five times a day is overblown rhetorics. Unless you emmigrate to Iran voluntarily I don't see how that can happen. Mullahs or not, it seems the people in the ME just want to gain control over their own house. You sound as if they are going to invade us to sperad their values. But the fact is quite the other way around.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 03, 2005 05:58 AM
So if opposing fascism HERE is good, why is my desire to fight it in Iran BAD? The fact that our actions in the middle east have been terribly destructive does not change the reality that the men in charge in Iran are, dare I say, BRUTAL and should be removed. This is the problem of being a moderate liberal in these extreme times. I can't seem to get anyone on the right to admit that our foreign policy is a big part of the problem and on the flip side, I can't get the left to admit that the problem goes BEYOND just our policy. So please, show me that we aren't just a bunch of hypocrites on the left and tell me that we have just as much moral obligation to end fascism in the middle east as we do right here at home. Because personally, I believe that if justice is just for some and not for all, then it can hardly be called justice. And if fascism is something we should be fighting here, then it's something we should be fighting everywhere.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 03, 2005 05:42 AM
Graeme, there you go again. I've already made it ABUNDANTLY clear that I am aware and disgusted of America's actions, yet you still hold up our injustices as a shield for FASCISTS in the middle east. It doesn't work like that. I'm going to hit you with an idea and because you are a progressive I know you will open your mind and come along with me, if even for a moment. What are we doing here at this blog? Everyday, day and night we go of on Bush and rightfully so. WHY? It's because we catch the scent of fascism in the air and for us to sit idly by while fascism is on the march is WRONG and we are GOOD PEOPLE for not allowing it to go unchecked. Stay with me...

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Mar 03, 2005 01:46 AM
the Corporate/Business Right has used to genetic violence-hate capability of man; they have redirected it and channeled for their own aims. I guess this goes back a long way. Munitions manufacturers, etc manipulating various conflicts, etc. That is one of the failures of the Left, IMHO: they have rejected the idea of portraying the Corporate Right and the wealthy as a worthy target of hate. By rejecting this idea, the Leftist political camp does not offer any suitable target/channel for the natural hate-violence propensities of Americans. It may not be "right" and "proper" to incorporate hate into the Left political realm, but the Right is a Mack truck, and we are rabbits. Does the left have a choice?

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By Jautter, Mind at Mar 03, 2005 01:06 AM
People who desire power and control will always cause misery.People who's intellect and reason should place them in control blog.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 02, 2005 22:27 PM
Is there any other "progressive" out there who has the courage of conviction to say that anyone other than ourselves can be wrong and should be stopped?

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 02, 2005 22:10 PM
Wake up Graeme, our policies are not the ONLY problem. The Mullah are NOT innocent lambs lost in the woods being victimized. They send their goon squads over to the University to hack students to pieces with machetes for organizing protests. So don't ask me to be moral by showing restraint. Also, don't twist around what I said. I said nothing about the Iranian people. I recognize the overall demographic of Iran and realize that they aren't the problem.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 02, 2005 22:03 PM
...and if there is a just cause left on this planet for the use of violence it is to see that what they believe either stays right where it is or even better, is wiped out all together. Do me a favor too, don't tell me that Iran and Syria don't support Islamo-fascist terrorism. They do, just as sure as we're killing for oil, they do. I've heard Islamic leaders, surrounded by THOUSANDS of cheering spectators railing about and bragging about killing the "infidels". Once again, I'm not arguing that we haven't fucked them over. I'm saying that even if we stopped today, a hundred years from now we would still be the infidels that needed to be killed.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 02, 2005 21:54 PM
Graeme, I am familiar with the Cicero quote: "What is morally wrong can never be advantageous, even when it enables you to make some gain that you believe to be to your advantage." ...and I agree. The thing is, I don't think it's morally wrong to put an end to Islamo-fascism any more than I think it was wrong to end the KKK and the Jim Crow South. I'm coming out progressives!!!! YES, I am making a MORAL DECLARATION. I AM A BETTER PERSON THAN AN ISLAMO FASCIST. You won't get any argument from me about how wrong and unjust our policies have been and how they have contributed to the problems we face now and I am all for correcting this. Regardless of these facts however, I'm not willing to give the Mullahs a pass. They are what they are and in my opinion, they are evil scumbags.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 02, 2005 21:21 PM
If it is true (and it is) that Bush is a corrupt and evil prick, then it's doubley true for the Mullahs and I have no interest in respecting their views, their policies or their world vision because they offend me to the core. And I think we would be doing the world a favor to get rid of the lot of them. Social policy, economics...I'm right here with you guys. But there is not part of my being that believes it to be wrong to fuck over the Islamo-fascist in every way humanly possible.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 02, 2005 21:11 PM
Realpc asks "why are we in Iraq"? Yeah, why are we in Baghdad babysitting oil fields for a bunch of rich imperialists here in America when we SHOULD be cracking skulls in Tehran and Damascus? That's right, I said it! Why shouldn't we? Sure war is always horrible, but it's not always dishonorable and is there any politcal apparatus (besides the neo cons here at home) more deserving of removal? I'm tired of my liberal colleagues saying how we should respect the regimes in Iran and Syria and that we should be negotiating with the mullahs. Why? Why should I want to negotiate with people who would be happy to see my head separated from my neck and who if had it their way, would have me down on my knees facing East five times a day while the prayers ring out over the loudspeakers.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 02, 2005 20:48 PM
Realpc, you write: "We can't afford to have wars any more (so why are we in Iraq? -- good question)." I want to adress this because this kind of statement coming from my so-called "progressive" brethren has been irratating the hell out of me. First off, let me just say that I think that war as it exists today is just wrong on every level. The military is just the arm of enforcement for neo-liberal colonialism. War for war's sake, war for profit and I am dead against it. That being said, (and since we've brought up the subject of violence and nature) just because I am against THIS war doesn't mean I am against war entirely and I think it is a GRAVE miscalculation of my so-call progressive brethren to continue to press pacifism. No wonder nobody listens to us here on the left. I am here to say that however unpleasant it may be, there can be merit in kicking some ass. cont....

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Occupy_iowa_city_rally

Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 02, 2005 20:28 PM
...The particular, historically specific, socially constructed masters of the current socioeconomic/global regime work to appropriate, mold, and distort universal human nature in their own interests. And it's a matter of human survival that we stop them from doing so and along the way (as part of that) prevent our education system from churning out so many of the kind of reactionary gnats as we see buzzing around these blogs.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 02, 2005 20:27 PM
... Hierarchical class systems (in all their variants, icluding official state "Marxist" formations) tend to suppress altruistic and cooperative drives and to selectively elevate competetive, egoistic impulses (the former tend to inform democratic anti-systemic movements that the commissars of capital and state power oppose, whether they're named Stalin or Ford, Putin or Bill Gates). The imperial public-private war machine and its related transnational corporate allies naturally wish to cultivate and make dominant violent impulses and authoritarian racism-friendly instincts of selective aggression and obedience among certain parts of the populace (look at the military recruiting ads, which leave out the ugly little reality of basic training)....

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 02, 2005 20:25 PM
I share Graeme's skepticism about the sincerity of realpc's engagements but it happens that realpc has walked into an interesting space for evil "Marxist clone" inquiry by talking about instincts in such a silly and reactionary way. Capitalism has this remarkable capacity to selectively grab, pervert, over-proliferate, and render canerous certain things that...sure....do make up part of up humanity's material species-being. The corporate fast-food industry grips onto human tastes for fatty and sweet foods - tastese that were naturally selected in the past to help humans store energy (on an as-needed basis) and access (when needed) quick energy. Our lovely not-so "free market" (corporate-dominated since corporations exist because of their ability to master, marshal, and then crush market forces) system tries to turn those drives into practically 24/7 appetites that lead to rampant obesity, heart-disease, and you name the collateral symptom (see "Fast Food Nation" and "Supersize Me")....ctd.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Jautter, Mind at Mar 02, 2005 19:01 PM
Fighting is an instinct resulting from the sexual/procreative urge.As you stated,realpc,we evolved from nature, and with very few exceptions,violence in nature results from competition for mating rights.This is why matriarchal societies are inherently less violent.Coincidentaly,Helen Thomas's editorial today states the majority of Americans are ready for a woman president in 2008.Unfortunately,42% said it should be Condi Rice.As usual,they miss the point.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Mar 02, 2005 15:16 PM
Yes, fighting is an instinct, like sex. Why do so many men like violent sports and video games? We think we have become so civilized and rational we don't love to fight. But it's really just fear -- we live under the constant threat of annihilation from our wonderful advanced technology. We can't afford to have wars any more (so why are we in Iraq? -- good question). And just try revolting against the US gov using pitchforks and rifles. We evolved for millions of years, like the other primates. The males defend the females and young from trespassers. We are part of nature, but our technology has made our nature obsolete.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 02, 2005 07:35 AM
Yes, believe it or not realpc I took your words literally. Silly me. Apparently you have some history I am suposed to recognize from other blogs --- I'm guessing Chomsky's since you have apparently told people that you have an advanced degree in linguistics. Congratulations on that accomplishment, by the way. It's a wonderful field and I'm sure you must be well on the road to overtaking NC's scholarly record. Yes, American education sure is turning out a bunch of Marxist clones. They're everywhere. That's an excellent observation. I still recommend restricting your comments to the anonymous Internet: snotty sarcasm of your kind can get you in an even worse pickle than what I thought you meant to say.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 02, 2005 07:10 AM
When people ask me what the best part of being in the Army was, I don't give them the "serving my country" or "defending freedom" bullshit, because I don't remember doing any of that. Instead I give the most honest answer I know..."They have the best toys". That's as far as my endorsement goes.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 02, 2005 05:29 AM
realpc I have read quite a bit of your contributions on the znet blog. As another blogger observed you spout cliches' without any back up argument. Since you claimed to have a Ph.D. in linguistic you are an educated person by common definition. The quality of your contributions do not inspire a lot of confidence in "non Marxist" indoctrinated education of the good old days.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 02, 2005 05:28 AM
"Our education system increasingly churns out Marxist clones, efficiently stamping out individuality and creative thinking." Can you provide any evidence to back up your claim that our graduates are becoming "Marxist clones". Or are you just shooting your mouth off as usual? It is true to a degree that factory style schools are stamping out creative thinking and indiviuality. But I suggest this is the result of business pressure to turn schools into employee training camps that produce drones instead of well rounded human beings. Your insinuation of Marxist conspiracy is coming right out off the comic book(jeeze do you still live in the 50's??) This must be your "creative mind" at work.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Mar 02, 2005 05:13 AM
"Eventually, all humans will be big fat wimps like Michael Moore who claim to have lost their fighting instincts." "Fighting" doesn't just mean "kiling motherfuckers". People struggle everyday in life, to better themselves, to overcome their weakness, to strive to be the best in whatever they do. As some say,"jihad" doesn't mean strapping a bomb to yourself blow pish the button. It can also mean struggling with oneself.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Mar 02, 2005 03:48 AM
I used to think an education made people intelligent but not any more. Our education system increasingly churns out Marxist clones, efficiently stamping out individuality and creative thinking. The less-educated working class has far more common sense than the ideology-intoxicated elites.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Mar 02, 2005 03:42 AM
It looks like you missed the sarcasm.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 02, 2005 03:11 AM
realpc I hope for your sake that you restrict those sorts of comments to the safe anonymous space of the Interent and "elite" upper-end circles you may or may not inhabit. Say something like that in some of the bars I used to hang out in and you better be pretty "good with your hands" (to quote Hesed in an earlier thread) and have a backup crew. You'll probably take that as a threat but it's really just a piece of friendly advice. I observe that people talk this way via the web who would never go that route in person. For good reasons, I'd say: I've seen people get their faces momentarily re-altered (which I don't support...I'm not violent) in response to mildler comments than yours. I mean that's a flat out brutal and volatile thing to say, my good capitalist man. For what its worth I've met plenty of smart working-class people and no small share of completely moronic professors, lawyers, engineers, and other middle-class professionals. So please, pretend you're in a working-class bar or a factory lunchroom ---surrounded by beer-drinking ex-high school line-backers who used to steal your lunch in high school ---- and curb that classism please.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Mar 02, 2005 02:45 AM
Yes, the working class is so dumb they don't even know if you join the military you may have to fight! No wonder they need Marxists to take care of them.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 02, 2005 02:42 AM
I don't doubt some role of instincts of protection or whatever that was realpc said but the point is that an evil empire is appropriating those instincts ---- which probably got all juiced up by 9/11 in the US like no time since Pearl Harbor (I'm curious if anyone's got good direct evidence of the linking of 9/11 to Iraq in Basic Training...my guess is that linkage has been the norm) --- for the illegal,immoral, and murderous seizure of Iraqi/Arab sovereignty and ressources. I think mind is right about relative degrees of accountability. I'm not religious but I still like to think there's a special place in Hell for young Ozzie Ozbourne's "War Pigs" ..the "Evil Minds that plot destruction...sorcerers of death's construction" (lyric may be a little off but I'm getting tired of quoting Dylan's "Masters of War," which I recited in front of the Boeing Corporation's global Headquarters in March 2003 -- a clearly signficant action that halted the war machine in its tracks)

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 02, 2005 02:36 AM
well, folks here should buy the Harpers because again she (Dobie) hits on things people are bringing up...for example she cites some military researcher on exactly this age question. Faheem's comments (to which I say "damn") are richly instructive and I agreee with him on how people should stop ripping basically poor and working-class soldiers for enlisting and then not wanting to kill when in fact the armed forces do this whole big sales job about college tuition and travel and professional development and well-rounded character development and tell you you won't be deployed overseas and then they get their hooks in your back and and proceed to try to turn you into a death machine (see Faheem's comments on people who became unrecognizable in boot camp) ready to kill and die and they send your broken down and built-back-up killer ass off to blow people up, including small children. Middle class and upper-class kids don't have the same vulnerability, of course, to this disgusting bait and switch. Read the Harpers piece and you'll see that this "Jeremiah" kid is in a whole other category, however: he's raised left counter-cultural and gloms on to the armed forces as some sort of machismo rite of passage...then he gets there and finds out how insane it is he goes AWOL. In his case there's a naivete factor no doubt. One of the reasons "Full Metal Jacket" (based on a novel called The Short Timters written I think by a guy who had been a war correponsondent in Vietnam) was an especially good Vietnam movie (IMO) was the portrayal of the fascist totalitarian madness of basic training.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Rcreager, Ramónc at Mar 02, 2005 01:00 AM
Hey mind, here's a quote that will interest you, as it squares with your experience: "As to age, 20 to 35 seems to be the proper age for front-line soldiers. Above 35 I would not trust anybody in the line as a common soldier or junior officer unless he is of known political reliability." -- George Orwell, 'Notes on the Spanish Militias' (Orwell served with the POUM militia during the early months of the Spanish Civil War.)

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Mar 02, 2005 00:49 AM
"I wanted to join the Army because I wanted to shoot motherfuckers." As the psalm says, there is a time and season for everything, including violence. As our weapons become more advanced, the need to stifle our natural instinct for protective violence increases. Eventually, all humans will be big fat wimps like Michael Moore who claim to have lost their fighting instincts. When the other animals follow their instincts to hunt and fight, they probably enjoy it. Otherwise, they would ignore their instincts and lie down and die. As the natural instinct for protective violence (more common in males) is increasingly repressed, all kinds of mental and physical diseases will increase. Not to mention verbal violence which is becoming an epidemic.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Jautter, Mind at Mar 01, 2005 23:59 PM
While growing up ['50's-60's],I couldn't wait to get my first bb gun,then pellet gun, then a 22.I shot birds, squirrels, rabbits,and pretty much anything that mooved.I was in my late 20's before I began to realize that live animals were more interesting than dead ones.I was in my mid-thirties before I gained a full realization of the sanctity of all life.The vast majority of military recruits are still children and not fully accountable for their ignorance.[so are their leaders,but they are accountable.]

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Amir, Faheem at Mar 01, 2005 23:36 PM
But if you are selling recruits college education and then they say that's all they joined the military for how can they be called cowards when they speak about the reasons they joined the Military and the things that sold them on joining the military even if they knew full well the military is a war machine; the fact remains that is not why they joined nor was it part of the propaganda that got them to join the Military. The Military lies to more recruits to get them to join and use the widely known but hardly discussed reality that the Military is a war machine to send these education seeking men and women into war zones. In the end the young person who said they did not join the Military to kill is being honest while the Military who said nothing of war while recruiting and used education as a means of recruiting is being dishonest by sending the education seeking men and women to die on some foreign land.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Amir, Faheem at Mar 01, 2005 23:36 PM
That pissed the "DI" off beyond belief which means he really did not want truthful answers to the question he asked. The problem is that while it is understood that the Military is a war Machine it is an unspoken understanding and definitely not the part of the Military experience used to sell the idea of joining the Military to young men. It is hypocritical to criticize young men and women who refuse to go to war because they say they joined the Military to get an education. If we were to take a cursory glance at the selling of the Military to these individuals we will see that going to war was not part of the proposition. Selling young folk a lie and then when the lie is exposed and these young folk want out but are not allowed to leave and referred to as coward is truly cowardice itself and disingenuous. If the military sold recruits war and they still joined, great!

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Amir, Faheem at Mar 01, 2005 23:35 PM
While it is true that some recruits choose a combat MOS there is a high number of them that are forced into it by way of entering the military on what is called an "open contract". An open contract allows for the military to randomly select an MOS for a recruit partially based on their asvab scores and the needs of the Military. I remember clearly the day I and the group of men I entered the military with received our MOS. There were literally men crying because they were giving Infantry MOS and a few of them went "UA" (unauthorized absence) that night. I can only speak for the Marine Corps in which I served from 1992-1996. I literally seen men I entered the military with become a new person in that they were like Zombies completely broken down and made into something other than themselves. I remember the "DI" asking every recruit one by one why did we join the Marine Corp and hearing all these recruits spouting out "To defend my country sir" and me being who I am did not realize that this was the correct answer thus when it was my turn to answer I said to get off the streets and out of my home town.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 01, 2005 23:18 PM
Well this takes us back to an earlier ZNet blog discussion where I agreed with Chomsky that if there must be an army than its better to have a draft than a volunteer army as we don't want to further encourage the development of a separate self-selective military caste (something Chalmers Johnson does a good job on in his book Sorrows of Empire)and we also don't want to make enlistment a duty for only the working class and the poor. terence this discourse is no more or less empty/substantive than the standard blog fare but I think the question of desertion and how we manufacture racist imperial killers is fairly relevant and of course I personally encourage people to go AWOL before they kill or get killed for some truly worthless bastards: Bush,Rummy, Cheney, and their fellow super-opulent chickenhawk chiefs of the petro-TNC-media-military-industrial complex (the war machine).

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 01, 2005 22:17 PM
Paul, I don't think it's all or nothing. As RamA3nc points out, these solidiers who volunteer for a combat MOS (military occupational service) already have a hard-on for destruction. Why else would you choose the mechanized infantry as a military career if you didn't want to make things go "boom"? Oh sure, it's all surrounded by a lot of tradition and ceremony and given meaning with words like duty, honor and valor. In the end though, a lot of these guys just enjoy the "BOOM". The way I see it, better they be in the Army then out here on the street with me. God bless America, where even sociopaths have a niche. (c'mon you know you laughed when you read that) I wouldn't suggest that any moral person join this military either. Why go kill, or even worse, get your own balls blown off so that Exxon-Mobil can report it's greatest quarterly earnings in company history?

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Rcreager, Ramónc at Mar 01, 2005 21:59 PM
Don't forget a key difference between WWII and today. WWII saw a massive, across-the-board draft. Thus, the cross-section of enlisted men then more accurately reflected the cross-section of our society in general. By contrast, today's army is manned by volunteers. The volunteer system thus self-selects for the kind of people Mr. Street describes in his article. Some wish to be there, eager to kick some ass; others are there to escape desperate economic conditions, and often are ignorant and uneducated. (These are my own observations after spending 10 years in the regular Army.) Granted, it is a soldier's job to kill, as pointed out in Hesed's comments. Nonetheless, the differece between the WWII grunt and today's grunt may well have made attrocities like Abu Ghraib much more likely.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 01, 2005 21:54 PM
Johnny or Jennifer to help US imperialism trash other peoples' sovereignty and steal their human and material resources. Johnny or Jennifer may come back in a box or missing limbs all for that noble cause and then you've got to live with enabling their murder or disfigurement for reasons that might be noble (the as yet still sadly relevant need of modern nation states for standing armies) but have nothing to do with how loathesome fascist capitalist pigs like Cheney and Rummy used them, which is as imperial fodder. The training is so savage in part because of the heavily racialized imperial mission ordered from top down. Another thing the Harpers' piece is good on is the many false promises they make to get people in and to keep them there. And I didn't even talk about class and who gets essentially poverty-drafted in the rolling slaughterhouses of US empire. If it really is as all or nothing as you suggest -- either no military or THIS military --- than I guess I'm a total unabashed anarchist about the issue.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 01, 2005 21:52 PM
Well, that's a good analogy (the making of sausage) and if you look at the Harpers' piece and you will see that Jeremiah was in fact a most unusual case, but I think there ought to be some shades of interpretive gray between looking close or turning away and between either going full bore with fascist militarism or calling for immediate dismantlement of all standing armies. I personally think nobody should let their kid into this particular U.S. military sausage manufactory given its aggressive imperial supervision and mission. It's one thing to say "well you know... we live in a world of nation states and there's security issues and so we need armies and everybody ought to serve and so forth." It's another thing to actually package up your dear...

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 01, 2005 21:36 PM
Oh, I don't know if this will help to cheer you or not, but you should take some comfort in the knowledge that it takes a great deal of psychological conditioning to turn a ordinary man into a soldier and that it is not a normal, inherehent trait to want to be a killer. (I don't know, I'm looking for the silver lining here)

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 01, 2005 21:26 PM
I get your point though that the desensitzing can be the precursor that initiates and morally justifies agression. It's rampant in American society as in a lot of countries. It's our duty out here in the civilian populus to fight this tendency. But the guys who have signed up for service need to be desensitized to killing, or they may not do it when it is required of them.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 01, 2005 21:18 PM
Soldiery is like making sausage, the less you know about how it's done, the better for your appetite. So unless you are of the position that the US is no longer in need of a standing army consisting of combat-ready soldiers prepared to kill on command, I would suggest you avert your eyes from how the Army makes men into killers. War is ugly, killing is ugly and it should not be entered into as it has. But the fact remains that we still need an army and we need killers in that army. Jeremiah sounds like he made a mistake by joining. No matter how much he or anyone else may dislike it, recruits in basic combat training will always scream, "What's the cry of the infantry? KILL, KILL, KILL. What makes the green grass grow? BLOOD, BLOOD, BLOOD".

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Street, Paul at Mar 01, 2005 21:10 PM
Hesed you are right of course but look at the article/post...my key point perhaps is to note how far the desensitization has gone BEFORE they get to boot camp and how ready for indoctrination some recruits are in advance. Also, for what its worth, the nature of the training has developed over time. It was less that way for example during WWII and they did research and found basically that guys were too reluctant to kill and so they had to initiate a significantly intensified training/indoctrination to encourage a more properly genocidal approach. I'd be curious to know if US soldiers in WWII were more ready and williong to fire off rounds against Asians than against Nordic Nazis.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Hesed00, Hesed at Mar 01, 2005 20:54 PM
Paul, ya know, they're not baking brownies in the Army...they're trying to turn average, good men into obedient soldiers and one of the duties of a soldier is to kill who they tell you to kill when they tell you to kill them. I'm not saying that makes it right but that is the reality of the Army. You aren't doing a soldier a service by slapping a uniform on him, teaching him to march and shine his boots and then not preparing him for combat by ignoring his inevitable duty to kill. I won't argue that the racist desensitizing employed by the Army, which you cite in your post, offends the moral sensibilities. But if you know of another way to train a man to kill another man without hesitating, I'd like to see it. As bad as that sounds, that IS EXACTLY what a soldier is supposed to do. The soldier who stops to think about killing in the midst of combat is a dead soldier.

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Re: "I'm Putting Two in the Chest of Every Ah-La-La-La-La I see"

By Shannon, James at Mar 01, 2005 19:43 PM
You are so on the money. Been there - the kid tells the truth. "I wanna go to VietNam - I wanna kill some VietCong" When I was young "fat dumg and happy" the world was just as it is today. Nothing has changed, except us and our search for "truth". Fort Benning Infantry Officer Basic June 1971. As humans we choose our beliefs and use the "system" then in power to create our own beliefs. I'm mad as hell for being lied to as a young man - but I am beyond mad when I observe the unbelievable ignorance of humans that will not look in the mirror and seek justice.

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