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Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Noam Chomsky at Aug 25, 2005

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States that practice torture, slavery, brutal oppression of women, child labor, and other crimes were not condemned when these were standard practices. Same with ethnic cleansing, conquest, destruction of societies under imperial domination, etc. States that carry out those policies today are condemned, though inadequately, and if backed by the US are scarcely condemned at all, as in the case of Israel, where any condemnation with threat of implementation [of UN resolutions] (which is rare) is instantly vetoed. If the US today were to carry out the practices that established the national territory, there would be worldwide revulsion and condemnation in the West, unlike at the time, when it was well within the horrendous norm. There has been progress in establishing civilized norms, which shouldn't be overlooked, though there is obviously a very long way to go. Contemporary norms were affirmed in the UN Charter -- in principle, practice is a different matter. And they are not retrospective, or few would escape censure so harsh that the occasional tapping on the wrist of Israel would be invisible in comparison. There are a few cases of military occupation since those norms were established: Indonesia in East Timor, Morocco in Western Sahara, and Israel's rule since 1967 in the occupied territories, and in parts of Lebanon for 22 years in violation of Security Council orders. All have been formally condemned. Implementation is determined by power interests.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Arts, Crucial at Nov 05, 2005 05:32 AM
Noam, did you hear about this, regarding child labor: A 14,000-strong union of young people all under the age of 17, who live in so-called "third-world" countries has been trying to speak up from their point of view. The somewhat mainstream alternative magazine "Mother Jones" published the following article (see link) in November/December 2000. It quotes an underage youth spokesperson, along with the usual ideologically challenged "rationalisms" of groanup professionals who Are Always Right no matter what kids say for themselves. excerpt from article: "Praveen Kumar... has until recently led... life as head of a union, recruiting new members, running meetings, and representing the group in international conferences. Kumar just turned 18 and must now step down because he is too old: None of the 14,000 members of his union is older than 17. Some are as young as seven." More: http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2000/11/underage.html I tried looking for more information, but have been so far unable to find anything. Perhaps you will have better luck than I? Btw, the points made in this article aren't completely without precedent. One that I've found came along in the 1970s--"Ann Arbor Youth Liberation"; amongst other demands: "12. WE WANT THE RIGHT TO BE ECONOMICALLY INDEPENDENT OF ADULTS. We believe we are entitled to work or to unemployment benefits. Child-labor laws and extended schooling now force youth into the status of a dependent colony."

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Sep 04, 2005 14:29 PM
Forgot to include the latest interview with Julian Darley: http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/469 (Again, scroll down to download or listen) For those who complain that Chomsky does not offer a solution to what ails the world, the same cannot be said of Julian Darley, who explicitly states what we can do to change the system. Well worth listening to this guy. An enthusiastic speaker, and someone who makes you think. Darley wants you to use your money - not to buy book, after book, after book - but to get involved with groups that are already changing things - because time is running out! Unfortunately, I don't think human nature is up to the challenge, not without being shoved hard in the right direction by numerous disasters. Well, if human nature can't save us, perhaps science will, by creating a cheap, efficient, clean, and portable new energy source. And, if we can master nanotechnology, we'll be able to create any substance we want, including oil. The other option: people should stop breeding. After all, do we need more hominids brought into this crappy world? Yes, according to Chomsky, unless his kids were adopted. Is Chomsky willing to make the sacrifices Julian Darley deems necessary? Dream on! The guy won't even visit his own blog. Like a king, he sits on his thrown at MIT, and you have to go to him.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Sep 04, 2005 12:23 PM
LETTER FROM AMERICA My dear reader, you cannot grasp the sights I have seen. I arrived a week ago, and already I am exhausted. There is so much to learn about the American way of life. In the seven short days that I have been here, I feel I have experienced a lifetime of events. So many things have happened. Where should I begin? Let me begin with yesterday. As I re-live that day, my heart starts to pound; adrenaline courses through my body. Rape, murder, intimidation; the stench of death! Because of the freedoms America has bestowed upon its citizens, Chomsky calls this "the greatest country in the world". Yet, I have never seen so much division, so many angry mobs, so much official incompetence and indifference... -- Enough of that. Here are some real letters from America, written by Britons: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0903-03.htm The events in New Orleans may foreshadow worse things to come, if people don't start listening to individuals like Julian Darley, a British environmental philosopher: http://www.juliandarley.com/ I've given this link before, but here it is again: http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/344 Scroll down and download, or listen to, the two interviews Julian Darley gave. Don't expect Chomsky to give you these links; if people go elsewhere, Chomsky might have to reduce the exorbitant fees he charges for his speeches - and that just won't do! Dumb students are profitable students.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Wshirley, Willied at Sep 01, 2005 16:49 PM
It should be possible to reject the actions of a government without being accused of a racist hatred of all the people served by that government. I detest what the American administration is doing around the world and at home right now. I think they are deliberately killing innocent women and children, and it seems to me that the Israeli government is doing much the same thing, but I could go through a list of many of the world's governments who also are killing innocent people. Corporations, organizations, and individuals worldwide are killing innocent people. Iceland seems pretty peaceful though, so humans can be non-violent. I don't hate humanity because I hate hatred. I just wish we'd stop sending any group of people the means to kill. Seems to me that a country run by people who claim to follow the teachings of Moses or Jesus cannot then turn around and send an army into a region to kill the people there. If they do, then they are hypocrits and liars, or just fools. And I must say that although I don't consider Prof. Chomsky to be a demi-god (or any other kind of god), he does seem to be logical and well informed, so I read his comments with interest. Unfortunately many of the comments on this thread are not terribly interesting, just insulting. It's so sad.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Mjc7373, Mcorbin at Sep 01, 2005 04:40 AM
One of the effects of states and Corporations is to remove responsibility from the individuals who direct them. For example, if a major cigarette manufacturer is found to have marketed to children, the company gets cited and or fined. The individuals who made the conscious decision to market to kids are not liable and do not have to answer for the travesty. I think it's as rare for an individual to commit the kinds of destructive behavior that corporations and states do as it is for a lone man to go lynching.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Jarrett_gabriel, Anonymous3 at Aug 31, 2005 19:45 PM
The point I was trying to make is that it seems somewhat ironic that someone would accuse a person of being anti-Semitic for criticizing the war crimes committed by the state of Israel. It seems to imply that by criticizing the war crimes, that this is the equivalent of criticizing the Jewish religion. Calling the state of Israel a Jewish state, giving its history is almost an insult to the Jewish population who inhabit it. It implies that discrimination, and committing violence is a part of the Jewish way of life.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Jarrett_gabriel, Anonymous3 at Aug 31, 2005 18:25 PM
"anonymous: are you quoting Yakov or mimicking him? Your post is unclear." I mistakenly forget to put Yakov's comments in quotation marks. If you thought that I was actually making those comments, then I might have to repost it.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Aug 31, 2005 15:04 PM
Cosmic, you are wasting your time, these are anarchists they don't believe the state is made up of people. The have completely reified the state into an evil non human entity that acts on its own. The fail to see the roots of the state in the self organization of citizens for the good of them all. In other words they blame the state boogie man for all the problems.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Cihanb, Cosmicparoxysms at Aug 31, 2005 13:05 PM
Graeme: I understand the distinction you draw but what exactly is the difference between the people and the state? Some of the people in some governments used to be people just like any other citizen. (Take Iran's new president for instance.) I can understand the socio-economic differences between the people and the elite but the difference between the state and the people seems a bit more nebulous. Chomsky claims that the state and the business sector are formed by the same people and not only that, but usually these people swap places and such. (A famous lawyer becoming a supreme court judge, a former minister of economics becoming a CEO for a bank etc...) However, I guess you are right when you say that it is possible to be genocidal in effect but not anti-Semitic.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Jbrownil, Jbrownil at Aug 31, 2005 02:14 AM
Honestly, the detractors on this site all seem to be living in a fantasy world. There is a difference between logical debate and this outrageous race-baiting garbage. If you have nothing to say, then please, move along children...

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Aug 30, 2005 23:58 PM
ANOTHER GREAT AMERICAN! As Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky never fail to point out: the U.S. people are angels, from no lesser place than Heaven itself. And the purest of them all: Harrison Ford! This may have been posted already, but who cares! It deserves an encore. From a Dahr Jamail dispatch, a petition: To: Patricia McQueeney, Mr Ford's agent Harrison Ford has announced that he wishes to play the role of the general in charge of the assault and seige of Fallujah, in an upcoming movie to be entitled No True Glory. This action resulted in the destruction of a whole city and the loss of many thousand innocent lives, and caused over 300,000 people to become homeless, while the insurgent Iraqis mostly slipped away, to attack again from elsewhere. We do not trust Hollywood to show the abuses of the US forces, who broke Geneva Conventions and denied civilians hospitals, water, food, opening fire on ambulances and denying the press coverage. We do not believe the military to have been innocent pawns of flawed government, and do not wish Mr Ford to play General Mattis, and we vote against the making of this film. We ask the studios to examine history before they rewrite it. We ask Mr Ford to read up on the truth. "And the truth shall set us free." http://petitiononline.com/b7qrlb5/petition.html http://www.petitiononline.com/b7qrlb5/petition.html

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By Jarrett_gabriel, Anonymous3 at Aug 29, 2005 14:55 PM
It's interesting how Chomsky's example of the UN's failing to condemn torture is Israel. While torture should be condemned, why does Chomsky single out Israel which has the only notion of human rights while being surrounded by barbarians known for torture? Why does Chomsky single out Israel when allegations of torture are miniscule compared to its Arab neighbors? The fact is, when people like Chomsky and his ilk make such allegations, they do so with conscience and hypocrisy. While his ilk will say "what is wrong with criticizing the Israeli government," the intelligent world recognizes this as nothing more then thinly veiled jew-hatred. Are you claiming that if someone criticizes the state of Israel for carrying out war crimes, that this is the equivalent of criticizing the Jewish religion? If so, then what does carrying out war crimes have to do with being Jewish?

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Aug 29, 2005 14:39 PM
what do you guys think about the pull out from gaza?

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Mjc7373, Mcorbin at Aug 29, 2005 09:12 AM
When Chomsky defended Faurisson it was purely on the grounds of freedom of speech. He said that either you believe in freedom of speech precisely for those opinions that you despise, or you do not believe in freedom of speech. Chomsky also said that he does not agree with Faurisson's conclusions but doesn't think the state should have the right to lock him up for saying it.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Cihanb, Cosmicparoxysms at Aug 29, 2005 06:10 AM
A little digression here. You write, "both intents and effects must be considered when evaluating any policy." Can this be used to claim that Chomsky's conduct was anti-semitic not in intent but in effect during the Faurisson affair? I think not but I just wanted to ferment discussion. I think Harvard's President considered the idea to stop transactions with Israel-based corporations "anti-semitic if not in intent, in consequence." I am not really sure though.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Zildus, Evan at Aug 29, 2005 01:30 AM
the-abyss, are you being paid to post or are you just insane? you need to settle down before you end up giving yourself a mohawk and telling people jodie foster told you to assassinate chomsky. i'm overstating it hoping it *is* an overstatement and you'll see what i mean; what's the point? read over your last couple posts. you're really being pretty over-intense. respect chomsky or not. if you really feel so betrayed by whatever chomsky said or did, at least try to disabuse people of their chomsky-love through sensible dialogue rather than acting like a psycho. i mean this to help, honestly.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Aug 28, 2005 22:56 PM
Graeme is the left-wing version of Bush, albeit, unlike Bush, who used his daddy's connections to become one of America's most notorious, cold-blooded killers, Graeme is a minnow, swimming round and round in his little pond, keeping well clear of all the big sharks circling nearby in Washington. Bush told the world: either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. Graeme - and a number of other Chomsky fanatics - told me: either you are with Chomsky, or you are against the whole of humanity. Crackpot is a word that comes to mind. As Graeme seems to find it acceptable to follow others blindly, he should not try to change the minds of those who believe Reagan saved the world by destroying Communism, and then parlayed this success by reviving American industry, paving the way for one of the longest running economic expansions in U.S. history. Nor should Graeme offer an alternative view to those who believe George Bush is spreading democracy to all four corners of the earth, by taking on the terrorists, and ensuring that the world never again offers a haven to these criminals, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, or any place else. A courageous and brave man - if only America had more like him! Blind faith is dangerous, whether it exists on the left or on the right of the political spectrum. Got that Graeme, and all you other Chomsky fanatics who so enthusiastically attacked me.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Aug 28, 2005 22:39 PM
"So the reason for the sanctions was that we don't like the race of the Iraqis? Only a fanatical extremist US-hater could believe that fantasy." No, the reason for the sanctions was to destabilize and weakon the country making it ripe for invasion and occupation. This is the same reason we convinced that moron saddam to attack iran and invade kuwait. He acted foolish beyond belief by listning to and accepting the WMD and other support we offered him. Saudi officials act much more disaplined and less power hungry than saddam and so we approch them differently. Either way we support and prop up dictator after dictator and we will again in Iraq as the unraveling of the installed democracy attempt by us becomes more of a civil war.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Bok, Yakov at Aug 28, 2005 19:04 PM
Graeme, you're English. Your country had as much to do with shaping the middle east as any other country, if not more, and yet you forget, or is it ignore, history and say that Israel is the root of all the problems in the region. Nice. If that isn't blatant Jew baiting, I don't know what is. So tell us Graeme, why do you feel the way you do about Jews? I'm sure you'll say you have no problem with Jews, it's Israel you hate. But unfortunately, you have weaved a tangled web. Do you hate Israel and Jews because you, like all good prolitariats, fight for the oppressed? Well then, being the student of history that you are, you should be for Israel and Jews. After all, Jews have been able to throw of the shackles of 2000 years of oppression and become autonomous. Isn't that worthy of your respect? Isn't any opposition faced merely another battle in the revolution? Face it Graeme, you're a bigot.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Aug 28, 2005 17:02 PM
More money for Chom$ky and his family. Chom$ky's supporters have shown their true colours in their previous attack on me when I criticised Chom$ky for selling books that are mere transcripts of question and answer sessions with his close friend and agent, David Barsamian. "What do you think about Medicare, Chom$ky?" Blah, blah, blah... "What about the state of public schools, Mr Chom$ky?" Blah, blah, blah... Why should anyone pay for this? If Chom$ky had written Linux, the only viable alternative to Windows, that would now be Copyright Chom$ky also. So many of Chom$ky's books are mere transcripts. I thought Chom$ky was professional, but he's not. He has no respect for the public. He's a con artist, a man who's happy to take other people's money and run. Chom$ky said in one book that the mainstream media do not review books that the public ought to be reading (I had to pay to get this remark!). So where is the list of books by other authors that Chom$ky recommends? Not on his blog, nor on his "official" site. That's because Chom$ky, like corporations, doesn't like dealing with informed consumers who make rational choices. He, therefore, tries to distort the functioning of the market by only promoting Chom$ky material. That way, the Chom$ky brand maintains its earning power. "I wish the world would go away." A lie! Chom$ky promotes himself as brazenly as any other celebrity.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Aug 28, 2005 15:25 PM
[and genocide (the Iraqi sanctions)] So the reason for the sanctions was that we don't like the race of the Iraqis? Only a fanatical extremist US-hater could believe that fantasy.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Bok, Yakov at Aug 28, 2005 02:57 AM
As Chomsky's peers on the kibbutz were trying to build a new communal way of life, Chomksy didn't want to get his hands dirty and insisted on being a teacher. Why? One would suspect so he could shape and mold young minds into following his distorted reality. He promptly followed his dreams to MIT and soon became the demigod of the left that he formally wasn't allowed to become. America - ain't it grand? It makes total sense that Chomsky lashes out at those he thinks betrayed him in the past. Rusty - why don't you check out the Hamas camp for kids that teaches them to be suicide bombers? Or the video of Arafat leading children in chants of "death to Jews and Israel?" Hell, don't restrict your search to Palestinian culture. I'm sure you can find a video of the Egyptian made for tv movie that aired last year that was ripped from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Why don't you follow the funding source from Iran, through Syria, to Lebannon and the West Bank in an explict attempt to kill Jews? Bottom line, you're not even getting half the story.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Rustynation2010, Rusty at Aug 27, 2005 01:11 AM
you know i used to be very supportive of the israeli cause until i saw a video on the net showing palestinian homes being buldozed to build israeli settlements. Other videos and articles that one would never see on mainstream news depicts the daily humilation of the palestinians at check points who are just trying to go to work or visit family members in other towns. After all this i finally understood the anger and hatred the palestinanians have for the israelis. If any pro-israeli people could explain to me how these actions will make a more peaceful and safter israel I would much like to hear them.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Esen, Exn101 at Aug 26, 2005 17:52 PM
Honestly I can back up the "bok" = "shit" - it really does mean "shit" in Turkish. And keep in mind Mr. Bok that a couple of people from the only semi-friend Israel has ever had have derided your horribly ill-informed comments. You believe Israel is surrounded by barbarians. Simply remember that Israel is the only country in the region with nuclear weapons and a permanent nose up the asshole of its master. Sounds like a severely depraved situation to me. Also ... remember Israel kills 10 Arabs for every Jew that is killed by a "terrorist" attack. Both are horrible and both are deplorable and NEITHER one is more barbaric than the other. Mr. Bok - one should wonder why it is that you find it within your reach to accuse others of "jew-hatred". Quite honestly, it is a fantasy world you are living in that allows you to believe people can be cowed into a corner by such an accusation. Seeing people other than your own "ilk" as sub-human, trashing their land, trashing their dignity, and terrorizing their children is a way of life and means to an end only YOU and members of your "ilk" that are of the same twisted mind as you know a great deal about. The "barbarians" that surround you would rather you bring yourselves up to their level of civilization.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Cihanb, Cosmicparoxysms at Aug 26, 2005 16:16 PM
Look Yakov Bok (Bok, by the way, in Turkish is the word for "shit" - literally), Chomsky condemns state-terrorism because he feels responsible for "the predictable consequences of his own actions". According to him, condemning US terrorism might break through the walls of censorship, raise public awareness and change things. On the other hand, condemning Arab terror is "a waste of time". If you look at what Israel has done, the extent of activities of Hamas and other terrorist organizations have been "miniscule" relatively. I agree that the actions of terrorists, either states or people, should be condemned openly and unambiguously. However, you should bear in mind that Chomsky very well knows what's going in Israel and that he says what he is saying consciously. Side note: Chomsky's reasons for leaving the Zionist kibbutz is mainly due to semitic racism. If you read his work, you will see that. It's easy to charge people with words like "hypocrisy", "self-hating" but your use is mostly humbug without substantiation.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Bok, Yakov at Aug 26, 2005 02:43 AM
Chomsky: the Jew hating Jew. Chomsky: the failed tyrant of the Zionist kibbutz lashes out at those who rejected him... It's interesting how Chomsky's example of the UN's failing to condemn torture is Israel. While torture should be condemned, why does Chomsky single out Israel which has the only notion of human rights while being surrounded by barbarians known for torture? Why does Chomsky single out Israel when allegations of torture are miniscule compared to its Arab neighbors? The fact is, when people like Chomsky and his ilk make such allegations, they do so with conscience and hypocrisy. While his ilk will say "what is wrong with criticizing the Israeli government," the intelligent world recognizes this as nothing more then thinly veiled jew-hatred.

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Re: Implementation of UN Resolutions

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Aug 25, 2005 21:19 PM
"If the US today were to carry out the practices that established the national territory, there would be worldwide revulsion and condemnation in the West" It seems like he is saying the US no longer carries out the inhumane practices that are no longer accepted in the West. But he normally calls the US the world's greatest terrorist. Does that apply mainly to the past? And if it does, why does he continue railing against everything the US does? Is that simply because we support Israel? And by the way, there were Jews in Israel thousands of years ago and ever since.

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