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India on the Edge of Survival

By Noam Chomsky at Jan 31, 2005

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[T]he dramatic rise in suicides in Andhra Pradesh, which have become a huge scandal....are particularly striking because they are so close to the jewels of the Indian economy, the high tech IT centers in Bangalore and Hyderabad, which evoke paroxysms of awe from the worshippers of neoliberalism. The suicides are the other face of the same principles. The state has redirected resources from the rural population -- the vast majority -- to the sectors of privilege. That means cutting back on irrigation, rural credit, etc., while also driving poor farmers to agroexport: cotton for example. A slight problem then arises. Poor farmers are on the edge of survival, and commodities fluctuate radically in price. One bad year for cotton and the family is driven to usurious money-lenders, who they can't pay back, so it escalates, and soon the farmer is driven to suicide in despair. The Indian agricultural economist Utsa Patnaik recently drew a comparison to the period right after the American civil war, which led to reduction of cotton exports to Britain and induced Indian peasants to produce cotton for the British rulers. After the civil war, cotton production resumed in the US, the market crashed, and the farmers couldn't pay the money lenders. The reaction then was a peasant revolt, attacking the money lenders and destroying their records. Now it is suicide. She writes that under British colonial rule farmers were more militant and optimistic than under the neoliberal regime, a different and suffocating form of subordination. That's only a small piece of the picture. Those who sing odes to the progress of India under neoliberal reforms rarely tell us that over half the population doesn't even know they have taken place, and that maybe close to 90% of the population are in the black or informal economy, outside the range of government statistics, and barely surviving. Over half of women and children have anemia, probable brain damage. That is sometimes called a "pocket" that has been left behind by "globalization" within a country that is benefiting from it. A rather big pocket. It continues, in the real world. ...The problem is quite a different one, in both cases: preventing the disaster. Anemia and malnutrition can be prevented. The Tsunami could not have been, but the disaster that followed could have been alleviated, not just by warning systems (the US military base in Diego Garcia apparently knew right away) but also by saving the coastline from destruction -- say, not destroying mangrove forests, which protect it, for tourist hotels.

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tercüme

By Cevirihizmetleri, Tercüme at Jun 29, 2007 16:23 PM
The problem is quite a different one, in both cases: preventing the disaster. Anemia and malnutrition can be prevented. The Tsunami could not have been, but the disaster that followed could have been alleviated, not just by warning systems (the US military base in Diego Garcia apparently knew right away) but also by saving the coastline from destruction -- say, not destroying mangrove forests, which protect it, for tourist hotels. tercüme ingilizce tercüme elektrik emlak çeviri tercüman link ekle kiral?k ev

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By Californiarefinancemortgage, Reallife at Sep 30, 2005 18:46 PM
Very good info.Very interesting theory. California Refinance

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Allen, Robert at Feb 20, 2005 06:42 AM
bwong, Here is what happened to WTGN when he took a swing at me: "Robert Allen: Have you ever thought that Cuba's problems may be because Castro is a psychopath and has created one of the best examples of obedience through coercion (CDR's and the like)?" My response: The fact is, Castro has made Cuba much better for the Cuban people. Had he been left alone by the US, which does not want a successful socialist state to exist (esp. one 90 miles from FL) and the Cuban oligarchs, who wanted to continue exploiting Cuban workers, there would have been little or no violence in the wake of the revolution. I do not condone the execution of the Batista loyalists, but it's not as if they did not have blood on their hands. Again, where is your proof that Fidel is a "psychopath": are you a psychologist? No, just a moron with a big mouth.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Allen, Robert at Feb 12, 2005 07:32 AM
"But as far as leftist apologist for Cuba, absolutely the left apologizes for Cuba and all of its sins. It lays the blame for all of Cuba's problems on the United States, on not on the Cuban leadership, cause after all Castro is 'trying to make a better society'." The fact is, Castro has made Cuba much better for the Cuban people. Had he been left alone by the US, which does not want a successful socialist state to exist (esp. one 90 miles from FL) and the Cuban oligarchs, who wanted to continue exploiting Cuban workers, there would have been little or no violence in the wake of the revolution. I do not condone the execution of the Batista loyalists, but it's not as if they did not have blood on their hands. Again, where is your proof that Fidel is a "psychopath": are you a psychologist? No, just a moron with a big mouth.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Tdc, Wtgn at Feb 08, 2005 22:08 PM
Robert Allen: Have you ever thought that Cuba's problems may be because Castro is a psychopath and has created one of the best examples of obedience through coercion (CDR's and the like)? Most of the worst human rights violations in Cuba took place in the 1960's. Thousands of political executions, tens of thousands of imprisonments for counter revolutionary actions (including owning the book Animal Farm or 1984) were typical of Castro then. But as far as leftist apologist for Cuba, absolutely the left apologizes for Cuba and all of its sins. It lays the blame for all of Cuba's problems on the United States, on not on the Cuban leadership, cause after all Castro is "trying to make a better society".

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Allen, Robert at Feb 07, 2005 18:33 PM
Sigma 6 What beautiful thoughts.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Allen, Robert at Feb 04, 2005 17:18 PM
WTGN, Did it ever occur to you that Cuba's problems are the result of 40 years of having to contend with the vicious policies directed towards it by the BULLY to the north?

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Tdc, Wtgn at Feb 04, 2005 08:16 AM
Interesting, but in all of Chomsky's talks about the lovely island of Cuba, he never makes the same link between suicide rates and politcal/economic opression that he has done with India? for those of you who may not know, when Cuba's suicide rate reached 24/1000 in 1986 (making it double Latin America's average, and triple Cuba's pre-Castro rate) the Cuban government ceased publishing the statistics on the epidemic. I wonder why that is?

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Feb 04, 2005 01:12 AM
The problem is a problem of the soul. For all the rhetoric about Dharma coming from publicly pious politicians and industrialists, in private their adherence to Dharma is obviously lacking. The massive amount of corruption and self interested leadership in all sectors of the economy and government is the only real problem. All other problems are the symptoms of that disease. Lip service to Dharma while performing real service to your bottom line is the standard for the Indian political industrial establishment. Nothing will change for the better unless the leaders of Indian society identify the real problem, and then work together to live up to their pious proclamations. They speak of Rama Rajya, lets see them put their money and backbone where their mouths are.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Feb 04, 2005 01:04 AM
India is in dire need of leaders who have the will to implement a social security/welfare system. That is what is desperately needed. The problems are not unmanageable, they are solvable if the leaders have the resolve to make a change. The solution is impossible if the leadership is not interested in making major renovations to the system at large. Where there is a will there is a way. It is that simple. If you have a city with millions of people on the streets and in shantytowns, with more people from the countrysie pouring in looking for work, then you should realize something is very wrong. Yet the leaders attempt patchwork solution. They try and deal with the symptoms instead of the disease. The result is that the disease gets worse. The disease is a government whose officials are working for private concerns and not for the people in general. They make decisions based on what their private concerns are. It's the same all over the world. In India the symptoms are worse because of many factors which are not as bad as other countries. But the disease is the same everywhere. cont.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Feb 04, 2005 00:55 AM
From what I have read the drought in South India seems to be the major cause of the inability for small farmers to repay their debts. Apparently the "suicides" are often the result of borrowing money from "private moneylenders". The Banks refuse loans and then the "private moneylenders" are the only option. Of course this means Mafia types are involved as the "private moneylenders". How many of these suicides are really suicides and not murders used to send a message to delinquent farmers? Police corruption is endemic in India, combined with silence from family members out of fear, this will keep the "suicide" from being investigated properly. The mass of economic and criminal problems in India are due to a lack of resolve at the highest levels to do something that will fix the problems. Caste is not the big problem, it is a minor problem overblown by politicians in order to get votes, and then repeated by media outlets who know nothing of Indian politics, especially vis-a-vis the Dalits/Marxist combine. cont.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Bkuzmick, Bryce at Feb 03, 2005 15:43 PM
Quick questions for you folks who know what's going on in India. How are the Sikh's doing financially? My friends in Canada say that they don't have a caste system in the Punjab, am I just being paid lip-service?

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Allen, Robert at Feb 03, 2005 03:41 AM
"You actually think all the evil Americans are in the Republican party?" realstupid Did I say that, asshole? Nowhere do I use the term Republican. Moreover, I am well aware of the fact that many Republicans deplore the actions of the wicked human beings who rigged the recent presidential election (and the one before it). And even if I did believe that all Republicans are evil that does not imply that all evil Americans are Republicans. Now you have been caught out in an obvious mistake in reasoning. Let's see if you are man enough to admit your mistake. If he does not, fellow Z-netters, you should disregard any further comments he makes, as he will have shown himself to be unreasonable.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 03, 2005 01:16 AM
You actually think all the evil Americans are in the Republican party?

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Allen, Robert at Feb 02, 2005 23:44 PM
"Sounds like a trumph for good old liberal democracy." You mean the kind where the outcome is not rigged by evil men hell bent on ruling the world? See http://uscountvotes.org/.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 02, 2005 19:04 PM
" ... a shocking defeat in the national election that can be explained only by recognizing the poor farmers vote." Sounds like a trumph for good old liberal democracy.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Arjun_narayanan, Arjun_narayanan at Feb 02, 2005 18:22 PM
Right on Mr. K. Reforms in India are generally of more use to the village upper caste than anyone else. leading to worse disparity and usury. but this is true of many places. While, in India,the caste system is the pretext for cornering benefits from a reform (a well being sunk in a region, say); even in other countries, Based on local money/politics it is clear that any well that is dug will be dug near the most influential mans house, furthering his influence. I am more optimistic than most, though. For the first time since liberalization we have had three things happen simultaneously. there has been mass media coverage of a shocking defeat in the national election that can be explained only by recognizing the poor farmers vote. So the city dwelling politicians, who for all their education still get their insights from television, have been forced to note that pro poor is much better for a political party than pro rich. in fact this note is repeated so much in the papers and talkshows, that it is incocievable that the next election will be run on anything but a pro poor footing. especially since the party policy makers sit in cities and lap up TV sound bytes.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Allen, Robert at Feb 02, 2005 16:19 PM
Bok, You are a heartless bastard

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By K, Mr at Feb 02, 2005 10:19 AM
hey here's india in 1000 characters. I worked for a couple fresh from the homeland and let me tell you their a combo neo-con stratified 'caste' worse than america but what america could be in twenty years. every blade of lettuce counts with these guys and let me say i've got to believe in shiva and her attempts to change their system of stratification. caste society + neo-liberal economic policies mean the worst stratified society on the planet. that's why the disparity. every human deserves a life. why have the masters of the universe treated us so? i wish india success in a drive towards meritocracy but i think it's entrenched stratified society is never going to change. your born into a class and it never changes that sucks. What's the deal? shiva and chavez need to run the show. fix my spelling and fill in the blanks. which special interest groups paying my rent to protest the other group in power? what's the deal? elitism is everywhere a one true universal.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Bok, Yakov at Feb 01, 2005 23:55 PM
India on the edge of survivial? There's over ONE BILLION Indians! They've done a pretty darn good job of surviving. Perhaps over populations is the real problem?

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 01, 2005 20:40 PM
Chomsky obviously thinks the moral is the gov should never change its policies and abandon the poor. But the moral could as easily be, avoid becoming dependent on any gov.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 01, 2005 20:39 PM
I am not necessarily an advocate of progress, and it would be nice if people could continue their ancient traditional ways of life. But you can't have it both ways. You can't have tsunami-detection and modern conveniences for everyone, and continue practicing ancient subsistence agriculture. These people became dependent on the gov, and suicide was therefore their only option when the gov changed its policies.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 01, 2005 20:36 PM
Technology could be a way for India to eliminate poverty, eventually. Helping illiterate subsistence farmers to remain illiterate subsistence farmers will not help them in the long run.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Coppernut, Coppernut at Feb 01, 2005 20:04 PM
I have recently been to Andhra Pradesh, to visit the work that the Rural Development Trust of the Fundación Vicente Ferrer is doing there (http://www.fundacionvicenteferrer.org). I have always been somewhat troubled by NGOs trying to "help" people to "develop" along Western guidelines, but I was really impressed by the imaginative ways the RDT is trying to minimize the impact of a bad crop to the farmers' survival. Of course, the RDT receives little or no money from the Indian government, and relies mainly on fund-raising in Europe. Chomsky might have a point when saying that officials in India are probably more preoccupied with the technological "miracles" of nearby Bangalore and Hyderabad.

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Re: India on the Edge of Survival

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 01, 2005 18:32 PM
Chomsky seems to imply that all these problems could easily be solved -- but if India is trying to modernize, there will be difficulties. And Chomsky does not recommend that they stop trying to modernize -- he wants them to have tsunami-detecting technology as good as ours. The west has suffered the pains of modernization and it has not been easy for working classes anywhere. It has even been a struggle, possibly, for many of the old agricultural aristocrats. Radical change is almost always arduous.

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