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Brian Dominick's Blog

Web Address: http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/briandominick
Bio: . Brian has taught a variety of courses at ZMI in the years since. (More)

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Israel/Palestine and Anti-Jews on the Left

By Brian Dominick at Feb 16, 2008


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I worry a lot about anti-Jewish sentiment on the US Left, even though many of my Jewish friends assure me it is not a significant factor, for example, in the dizzyingly disproportionate attention we pay to the Israel/Palestine conflict. But I'm not sure I agree. Even though I have been at least as guilty as nearly anyone of over-focus on Israel/Palestine, and I don't think I'm prejudiced against Jews, I still can't help wondering based on what I've heard over the years. Most of my evidence is drawn from nuance in conversation with non-Jewish leftists, most of whom are too smart to offer any real tells that they are suspicious of Jews as a people. But then there are others, who I encounter mostly on the Internet, that seem intent on providing me with an anecdotal basis for my concerns.

This week, I had an email/blog exchange with a Palestine-solidarity activist (or blogger) named Sophie, who is explicitly anti-Jewish. I should note that her critique of imperialism and such general topics is quite left, until she gets to the topic of Jews and Arabs. The fateful exchange started when I received the following email from her, which she sent to a list of folks:

Lots of picture for you to look at, a picture is indeed worth a thousand words. A people who would not cease to tell us about their 60-year old holocaust never would think twice about savagely terrorizing the Palestinian community who happen to be totally innocent in whatever took place between the Germans and the European Ashkenazi Jews. I am asking you to please pass the pictures to your email list; the pictures look nice and orderly, but it takes me a lot of time to get them organized that way.
http://www.ziomania.com/photo2008/2008-02-12.htm

I fired back an email, which read:

"Whatever took place between the Germans and the European Ashkenazi Jews"? You actually expect people to take you seriously when you deny the Holocaust?

I have lived among Palestinians and risked my life to protect theirs, and I'm not Jewish, but what you wrote in this email, which you sent to me for whatever reason -- is just totally disgusting.

Stop bringing down the anti-zionist movement with your racist hatred, whoever you are.

Sincerely,
Brian

Admittedly, my missive was a little bit off-the-cuff, as were my follow-ups. You can see that this is a sore spot for me; it just drives me nuts when people use anti-Jewish bias to fuel the anti-Zionist cause.

Sophie posted an extensive response to her website/blog, after snipping the part from my email where I insist I am pro-Palestinian. A lot of it, of course, was very sensible argument about the situation, but a few more turns of phrase bugged me. For instance, she wrote:

The Arabs are a very proud people and they don't like to be spat on by a people who claim to be victims but turned out to be such bestial and lethal victimizers. If these horrible tormentors of Palestine were any other group besides 'the Chosen people', I do believe even you -B- would find your voice to be very critical of such bestiality.

Since I think I've been sufficiently critical of Israeli policies (for instance, here and here and here on ZNet alone), that irked me a bit. But that's just the personal side. She also wrote:

And why must the Palestinians pay so dearly for the 'Jewish Holocaust'? Why didn't the Europeans find a European solution for the 'Jewish question'?

I also read elsewhere on Sophie's site that she believes Palestinians are "the real victims of Hitler."

Now, I understand that modern Zionism and modern "Jewishness" are very closely tied together, and I wouldn't really fault someone for noting that Jewishness, if one can identify its broad ideological strands, incorporates a high degree of anti-Arab sentiment and belief in the righteousness of Israel. I'm not sure what the value of noting this is, but I realize it is an accurate description, at its essence. But aren't we against prejudice even when the “trends” they are based on are more or less accurate? Do not, in fact, exceptions disprove rules when it comes to sweeping statements against any people?

It is the tie-in to the fairly widespread belief that "Jews own the US media" and "the US is a puppet of Israel" and "the Jewish lobby controls US policy" and other such nonsensities that starts to raise my ire. When you throw in belittlement of Jewish suffering under the Nazis, that pretty much clinches my case that at least some American "leftists," if they deserve the label, harbor dishonorable motives for their opposition to Israeli policy -- as if there aren't plenty of honorable motives without the bias against Jews.

So I responded to Sophie's response:

Sophie, I read your response and I agree with nearly all of it. Most of your statement is very sensible. I just don't understand why you need to be so dismissive of what European Jews suffered. I worked on PRCS ambulances as an EMT in 2002 during some of the worst fighting. I saw the horrors of the occupation. I worked in Jenin and Hebron. I get it. But it doesn't really compare to what the Nazis did to the Jews, no matter how you try to distort it.
You write "Why didn't the Europeans find a European solution for the 'Jewish question'?" THEY DID! It was the Holocaust. How can you be so cold? Why not phrase it as "the problem of how to protect Jews from persecution, or compensate them, etc."? It should have been dealt with differently. No shit. But that doesn't mean we should now be dismissive of the horrific, mass-scale suffering they (and others) underwent at the hands of the Nazis.
Also, I get that there have been many holocausts. I really do. That has nothing to do with the fact that you are trying to downplay one very big one, for whatever reason. It doesn't help your argument -- only hurts it.

(I should note about the above that "the Jewish Question" is an old term that bounced around Europe for many decades predating the rise of Hitler. It was largely an anti-Jewish "question," to be sure, but Hitler really hijacked the whole debate in order to scapegoat Jews, as we all know. Hence my assertion that Hitler's "Final Solution" was Europe's answer to "the Jewish Question.")

Sophie seemed to appreciate this response and, in her own reply, praised me as "a genuinely decent guy who cares about humanity." But she followed that up with more, harsher belittlement of Jewish suffering under the Nazis:

If you grew up in America, the Jews' Holocaust was drilled into the deepest layers of your psychic. You cannot escape it, day in and day out, the American public is reminded of the suffering of the Jews. 'Never again' are they going to forget their holocaust as they continue to holocaust the innocent Palestinians.

Despite the fact that I hardly think Americans "cannot escape" reminders of the Jewish Holocaust, what really bugs me about this viewpoint is the suggestion that what the Nazis did to the Jews in the 1930s and '40s really compares to what Israel has done to Palestinians since that time. We need to keep a sense of proportion about such matters, lest we discredit ourselves. Hitler and his system were fundamentally and drastically worse than Israel and all of its governments since 1949. Part of this was due to Germany's position of power, but most of it can be attributed to the difference in ideologies and forms of governance. Though there are strong genocidal currents even in the mainstream of Israeli politics, there is no significant advocacy of an extermination campaign. And in the meantime, whatever the conditions in Gaza and the West Bank, the worst of them do not fully compare to historical counterparts under the Nazi empire. As I noted in a response to Sophie, the settled sector of the Palestinian city Hebron looks a lot like the Warsaw Ghetto, but deplorable as the situation there is, it is most certainly not the same. It would be a stretch, for instance, to believe that the Palestinians there are at significant risk of being shipped off to extermination camps. We critics of Israeli policy need to be careful – we can draw parallels between modern Israel and Hitler's Germany (they do very much exist), but we should shy away from true comparisons.

Sophie doesn't even seem to care about the Nazi Holocaust. Scale is not a factor for her:

You said that I was "trying to downplay one very big one, for whatever reason.' My response is that one innocent person's death is one too many. How many Jews died during World War II? I don't know and that is the most honest answer that I can give you. I do understand that the expression, 'six million' is a constant reminder to garner sympathy for the Jews who have no sympathy for their colonized inferior people.

It occurs to me that the estimate of 6 million Jews who perished at the hands of Nazis should indeed garner sympathy for the direct or cultural descendants of those victims, whether those descendants sympathize with Zionist/Israeli policies toward Palestine or not. The reaction of the oppressed once "liberated" -- or while under oppression -- need not belittle the oppression. The horrific state of affairs in places like India or South Africa once the leaders of the oppressed took power does not delegitimize the oppression that existed before power-structure changes. By that token, the deplorable use of retail terrorism by some Palestinian factions, with broad sympathy among Palestinians, should not be used as an argument that Palestinians are any less deserving of freedom for the tactics some choose to employ and many choose to support. And if the Arab world were to actually retaliate against Israel for its invasion and occupation of Palestine and somehow “drive Israel into the Sea,” that wouldn't mean the Palestinians were not severely and reprehensibly oppressed by Israel for the preceding 60 years.

Then Sophie's argument gets weirder still:

Jews do own the media. See footnote 1. One of the most repugnant creatures on the face of the earth, Bill O'reilly wrote in one of his books that he had been churning out to fatten his wallets that 'those who own the children own the future'. Wrong! Those who own the media own both the children and the future. As long as the media remains firmly clenched within the hands of Jewry, your great-great-great grand children will be drilled about the Jewish holocaust just as you were growing up.

Again, I don't recall this supposed drilling during my youth, but maybe that's because the "brainwashing" Sophie elsewhere stated I've undergone was thorough enough to erase all memory of the act itself. Anyway, Footnote 1 linked to a bizarre document claiming to prove that "Stunning Jewish Success Dominates American Media." Far from the exclusive ownership implied by the statement "Jews do own the media," or even majority or really significant ownership, this document merely lists 87 Jews who are involved in the US media in some way. It starts with lots of executives, publishers and owners, but it also includes numerous columnists, reporters and editors, who can hardly be presumed to "own" the media they work for. In fairness, such a list could probably have been much longer, were it not for the presumed lack of resources (or laziness) of its creator. But it still wouldn't prove anything about Jewish ownership of the US media, which is a decidedly minority share, as implied by the hundreds of executive, publisher and owner slots NOT listed in the document.

The weakness of the evidence aside, there's something else that is overlooked by such assertions. I fully expect that if no Jews were in positions of power in the US media, that media would still provide horrific coverage of US/Israeli and Israeli/Palestinian relations. I doubt the US media need Jews on staff to correlate their coverage and opinion to that of Washington, and limit the debate to that taking place on Capitol Hill or at the major think tanks. The media have restricted themselves thusly in countless conflicts where Jewish involvement was peripheral or totally insignificant, such as the civil wars in Central America during the 1980s (and since), when media coverage was deplorable despite the lack of a Jewish ax in need of grinding. This absence of valuable analysis, traded instead for anecdotal "evidence" of Jewish influence as the key factor, so weakens the argument as to render it silly. And that's important: when you use an argument that is so ridiculous as to be deserving of scorn or dismissal, you weaken the broader case, which may (as here) be extremely strong without the introduction or assumption of ethnic prejudice.

This exchange went on a bit, but I'll spare you the rest. You can read the second and third rounds in their entireties on Sophie's website. But I did want to include my final response, which it appears Sophie does not intend to print, just to get it into the record:

Sophie, feel free to print these words as well.

Do I say "the Germans," or do I say "the Nazis"? Are you really so unable to engage in reasonable argument that you would overlook the fact that I ACTUALLY WROTE "the Nazis" and insinuate that I would say "the Germans"? And even if I ever did say "the Germans" by mistake, and you pointed that out, I would say -- huh, you're right, I should have said "the Nazis". I would not, as you have in the other case, make a big point of how most Germans were complicit in the extermination of European Jews. Nor would I belittle the efforts of the brave, relative few who did what they could to avert the Nazi Holocaust.

It's this kind of irrational argument that does you in. I have no patience for people who group entire races (or nationalities) and condemn them with such wholesale language.

I'm not sure the existence of a Jewish Holocaust museum is sufficient to condemn an entire race, ethnicity or religion. I just don't even understand the foundations of that logic...

There is a Holocaust museum at Auschwitz. Maybe you should go check it out before denying its relevance.

Do you really think there are only 15 Jewish anti-Zionist activists? Really? Cuz I can name at least 20 off the top of my head. Hell, I met about 15 in Palestine (I wasn't even working with ISM or anything). That line of reasoning is just silly.

Yeah, most Jews seem to sympathize strongly with Israel, to say the least. But I'm not sure "most" deserve the treatment of "all." I'm pretty sure that's called prejudice, and my brainwashed brain finds prejudice troubling.

[... redundant section re media removed... ]

To say that Noam Chomsky has ignored Israel's crimes is similarly bizarre. I went to Chomsky.info and searched "Israel" and got 263 hits -- more than the "two or three instances of the word" you erroneously claimed. Perhaps you did something wrong there? Have you read "The Fateful Triangle"? Have you even just seen how thick it is? He has actually written scores of articles about the Israel/Palestine conflict. Go to ZNet and search for ZNet and Z Magazine articles by Chomsky that mention Israel. You'll find dozens and dozens and dozens of hits, and I doubt any of them have kind words for Israel. Your claims to the contrary are really quite absurd. There are books claiming that Chomsky is a Nazi because he has been so critical of Israel. Chomsky has written far more critical words on the matter of Israel than I suspect you ever will, even if you keep blogging about it for years.

http://www.zcommunications.org/zsearch

Which isn't to say I agree with everything he has written (for instance, I favor a one-state solution), but it is to say that you have some serious blinders on if you want to deny that Chomsky has paid tons of attention to the matter.

Worst of all is the fact that you seem unwilling to admit that the Nazi Holocaust was a tremendous crime against humanity. I don't want to speculate as to your reasons for denying it, but it is really quite frightening. You say you believe that I truly care about humanity. It seems you only care about non-Jewish humanity, which is really just a very sad thing indeed.

I see on your site you say the Palestinians are the "real victims of Hitler"? Do you seriously believe that? The Jews and Roma and queers and communists and anarchists and partisans that he had slaughtered aren't REAL victims? They're either not victims, or they're phony victims, in your mind?

I have one last entreaty for you. If you really care about humanity, and you don't just have an anti-Jewish ax to grind, why don't you spend 100 times as much ink on the US invasion and occupation of Iraq as you do the Israeli invasion/occupation of Palestine? I suspect you are a US citizen (correct me if I'm wrong), so that means your OWN country is committing a horrific crime. And the scale is simply incomparable. The US war on Iraq has been far more violent, far less restrained, and carried a far higher cost in lives -- by some massive factor, even by the most conservative estimates. So why is it that you are going after Israel with such a fervor but not your own country?

Okay, before you all comment and ask why I wasted my time on this exchange, and then also took the time to blog about it, when surely this person is just a wingnut who doesn't deserve the time of day... back to my original thesis, I guess I still harbor concerns that a bias against Jews forms part of the foundation of left criticism of US/Israeli policy. I realize how easy it is to take that argument too far, but I also think ignoring it is a sign of the Left's weakness in terms of house cleaning. I don't see a lot of non-Jewish radicals willing to point out that, among us, there is a spectrum of bias against Jews that we tend to deny rather than confront. I've only confronted an easy case here, but let's be wary of the more-subtle cases I suspect are all around us, weakening the true resolve of reasoned opposition to the Occupation of Palestine.

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Re: Israel/Palestine and Anti-Jews on the Left

By Dominick, Brian at Feb 19, 2008 19:25 PM

I really appreciate the thoughtful, respectful comments added recently by Fredric, Kelvin and John. There\'s a small range of opinion, but it\'s nice to see people thinking hard about this, whatever their conclusions.

I guess the main "evidence" that leads me to suspect there is anti-Jewish sentiment behind the Left\'s stance on Israel/Palestine is just the disproportionality of the focus. It isn\'t just the anecdotal cases of people being outright anti-Jewish. The Occupation of Palestine is not, by a long shot, the worst crime underway, or recently underway. And I realize US backing of the horrors makes a difference to US-based activists. I also think that Jews, who are disproportionately represented in the US Palestinian-solidarity movement (positively), have a very legitimate resaon to pay special attention to the issue, since Israel\'s crimes are committed in their name and threaten backlash against their people. Which is probably a major driving force behind the disproportionate attention paid by the rest of the US Left. I mean, I wouldn\'t have become as aware of the issue as I did had it not been for the likes of Chomsky, Finkelstein and so many others whose reason for concern is unquestionable.

Furthermore, my perception is complicated (or undermined) by the sheer wrongness of Israel/Zionism on the matter. It\'s hard to accuse someone of being on the right side for the wrong reasons when there are so many right reasons they can cite convincingly.

Anyway, I think the discussion is important, so I appreciate those who have engaged in it here.

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Re: Israel/Palestine and Anti-Jews on the Left

By Frchristie, Frederic at Feb 19, 2008 09:27 AM

Brian:

I find far more of this among more conspiracy-theory oriented folks, people like in the 9/11 truth movmeent or Kennedy assassination types. Most people on the Left that would cluster around Z, Counterpunch, etc. have too keen of institutional analysis to even consider Jewish media running the country. Tim Wise has had similar pieces responding to out-and-out racists.

Yeah, it exists. When a country does horrendous things for decades and that country\'s ethnic makeup happens to be among the most hated people arguably in history but certainly in recent history, there will be an ethnic backlash. Of course, like Chomsky and I\'m sure you point out, this is a wholly predictable outcome of Israeli policies. It can be very difficult to look at a massive majority of an entire group of people condoning atrocities for decades and ignore centuries of anti-Semitism at the same time. Most of these people may benefit from some research: Ran ha-Cohen, for example, writes excellent pieces on the topic, and simply pointing them to a Chomsky book where he documents the hundreds of Israeli academics, journalists and activists with compelling arguments may change some opinions. People really concerned about anti-Semitism should, as you, I and Chomsky (among others) do, confront Israel among other commitments.

I just don\'t think that it\'s a major phenomenon. I think it exists at the edges, and it\'s something we need to deal with, but compared to the risk of the Left buying into the far easier (in the present day) anti-Arab racism, I think it\'s more of a footnote. Of course, Z Blogs is at least partially about footnotes.

As far as Israel-Nazi Germany parallels: While this may not be unique (similar trends are occurring in the US and globally), Israel has quite a few factors that qualify to make some analogies. I can think of at least five things off the top of my head: A group of people who have been savagely mistreaten as an ethnic group for decades and confined to virtual ghettos or Bantustans; an ever-increasingly militarized society that even its own members are concerned about the results of; a nation with pseudo-legal definitions of ethnic citizenry (something even Nazi Germany didn\'t achieve to the same protected degree); torture that is variably sanctioned or at least ignored; and increasing disinterest among the population in democratic form or substance.

Anti-Semitism should be opposed wherever it exists, as well as all forms of discrimination, hatred and prejudice. If "means" include ethnically castigating the perpetrators, bombing them, or even failing to criticize their bombing, I don\'t want to sign up, thank you.

What I find amazing about "Borg\'s" comment is his argument that Hamas is somehow horrible for Palestinians. Like Tim Wise points out when the same argument is made regarding affirmative action and blacks or women: What racist contempt! You honestly believe you, in all likelihood a privileged European with at the least a computer and Internet access, can intuit more of the situation of people in a very marginal and impoverished situation than those people themselves? I\'m not saying that one has to support Hamas, and one can even disagree with Hamas or Hezbollah or whoever else based on what they do to harm their own people. But to say that it\'s somehow totally irrational that these parties exist, to completely ignore what they do (Hamas provides essential aid that the PNA and Israel fail to give due to the way we set things up, and since we murder and discredit the secular and nationalist political opposition we shouldn\'t be surprised when we get Islamists) and under what conditions they arise out of, and to ignore how policies we control produce these parties, is to dismiss an entire group with quite racist contempt, on the scale with the backwards notions presented by Brian\'s interlocutor.

Of course, Borg utterly ignores the tens of thousands Israel has killed, tortured or maimed over the years. Until he finds credible evidence that Hamas has killed anywhere near that many people PERIOD, let alone Palestinians, I think we can dispense with the argument.

"2. Main core of antismeitism is NOT TO EXPLAIN CAPIATLISM by its abstract relations of private property and capital - insted it constucts groups of guilty wich are t he root of all evil and (That ist the special thing about antisemitism)"

What a strange position. Are you anti-capitalist? Odd given your seemingly orgiastic support for decidedly capitalist decisions to fund massive military budgets by bombing an oppressed ethnic group. Israel has in fact become quite capitalist under the thumb of the US, forcing it into horribly unpopular neo-liberal standards.

By your logic, anti-Semitism must be a product of the last 200 years. There were no pogroms, no Babylonians, no Romans, no hatred during the Middle Ages.

In short: What the hell?!

Yes, in modern contexts anti-Semitism has been a tool used by some people, often fascists, to divert and coopt criticism of and backlash against capitalist policies and institutions towards ethnic revivalism or other things. But that\'s not the "main core". It\'s ironic that for someone so committed to fighting anti-Semitism that you would actually trivialize the problem itself, which goes beyond particular social arrangements: Like a lot of "isms", it has its own defining and continuing logic.

I can appreciate the anti-capitalist concern, but it seems that you are reading entirely from capitalist, mainstream media sources. Most of the anti-capitalist Left is harshly critical of Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians. One can combine that with a foregoing criticism of some pressures in Palestinian national life without dropping to seemingly racist extremes or trivializing Israel\'s real and continuing crimes. For example: Chomsky was very critical of Arafat. I don\'t like Hamas very much, obviously; I tend not to like religious parties in general. But Hamas did legitimately win elections, and Israel denying them their own tax money is inexcusable.

 

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The Left & Israel

By Yearwood, Kelvin at Feb 19, 2008 09:27 AM

In my experience I have encountered almost no anti-semitic attitudes amongst the left, but a small amount of such among those who would call themselves liberals.

I have witnessed much opportunistic use of the term \'anti-semiticism\' to protect Israel under the general post-Holocaust Jewish banner of a people victimised but not victimising.

I was a member of the Bristol UK Palestinian Solidarity Campaign for a short while. At one of our events an anti-semitic remark made by a visitor to the event was broadly condemned.

The main problem with the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign is not anti-semitiism, but heirarchical betrayal. While many of us were out picketing a Heathrow Airport-based outlet for Israeli goods, the executuve of the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign held a covert meeting in our absence in London. Further, The Palestinian Solidarity Campaign supports pre-1967 borders, but does not feel it necessary to explain how, even if this \'plan\' was ever implemented, it would stop further ethnic cleansing on both sides.

It\'s also worth noting that the Palestinian Arabs are a semitic people and, due to a broadly biased Western press, are portrayed generally as being something irrational and problematic to which Israel has to respond. They are unapologetically dehumanised in our dominant culture.

We should all challenge anti-semiticism, but the greater problem is the opportunistic use of \'anti-semitic\' to protect the illegal expansionist occupation of late-1947 Palestine by Israel.

 

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583082

Re: Israel/Palestine and Anti-Jews on the Left

By Krumm, John at Feb 18, 2008 13:09 PM

Hi Brian,

I haven\'t encountered very much of what you describe among progressives and leftists even online, though most online exchanges I\'ve had have been on Znet...  In fact, the only person I know who makes anti-Jewish statements is my father in law, who still insists that the Jews  control the banking industry. Of course he\'s much more anti-Muslim now, and claims that Barak Obama is indeed a Muslim. And like John McCain, he refers to the Vietnamese as Gooks, even though he has been married to a Filipina/Tlingit woman for 40 years.

But I\'d have to see a lot more evidence to also have your concern about the left in the U.S. (maybe in Europe it\'s different). When you say " I guess I still harbor concerns that a bias against Jews forms part of the foundation of left criticism of US/Israeli policy" II don\'t see where you concern stems from. A hell of a lot of people are pissed at  Israel\'s Government, of course. Some of those people are both on the left and anti-Jewish, sure, so I suppose you could say that forms "part of the foundation" and be accurate. But a significant part?

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Re: Israel/Palestine and Anti-Jews on the Left

By Dominick, Brian at Feb 18, 2008 07:08 AM

Thanks for your comments, Borg. I must say, though, I disagree with most of your points (which seem to just be the points where you already were disagreeing with me, so we might still agree overall).

Firstly, I think there\'s a difference between what I call "anti-Jewish sentiment" or "bias" or "prejudice" and "anti-Semitism," since Arabs and others are also "Semitic" peoples. The hijacking of that term by Jewish activists has always irked me, since they clearly only make up a minority of the world\'s Semitic population. What gives?

You wrote: To my terms, antisemitism is not "just another form of racism" even if there may be some commons, if you don\'t see the difference, you\'re not capable to respond on arguments like "jews own the media"...

I agree that it isn\'t necessarily racism, but I don\'t really understand your reasons for that. Mine are that racism needs to be reserved for cases when there is a fundamental power difference between the oppressor and the oppressed. Otherwise, it can be a bias or a prejudice, but not necessarily racism, if racism is truly to maintain its meaning. In Nazi-dominated Germany, anti-Jewish sentiment very much took the form of racism. It might also be the case in places in the Arab world where Jews are a tiny, unprotected minority, but I don\'t know enough about Jewish life in such communities to be certain of that.

Only if you cut away all differences you can set up a formular like this Germany=Isreal, Palestinians=Jews (wich is complete nonsense)...

I\'m pretty sure I made it clear that I agreed with that. Not sure if you\'re repeating it for my benefit, but you also claimed that you disagreed with my use of a parallel. When I was living in the West Bank, I saw evidence of what I\'ll call parallels. I described some of them in my forum response to Jonas. Anyone is welcome to disagree as to whether they constitute parallels, but I surely was not drawing equivocations, as I explicitly stated in my original entry and in the forum post.

You wrote: [Antisemitism\'s] basis are antimodern ressentiment against liberal societies (women emancipation, homosexuality, failure of the familiy) and tries to reason folkish ideologies (e.g. "the indigenous" wich are the PURE, good and unguilty).

I hardly think the bias against Israel and Jewish Israelis is purely an anti-modern bias, if I understand what you are getting at here. You really can\'t discount the Nakba and the occupation of Palestinian territories. Those do constitute legitimate complaints. Saying the prejudice is based on anti-modernism is like saying Al-Qaeda "hates America because we love freedom." It\'s a cop-out. They have real reasons. And to acknowledge the legitimacy of the basis for resistance is not to accept the legitimacy of all forms that resistance takes, so my sympathy for Palestinians\' complaints should not be viewed as acceptance of terrorism or some other such garbage.

Also, people need to defend (!!!) against antisemitism, with any means nessesary!

I\'m really not sure I\'d agree with that, either. I think that\'s parallel to the reasoning behind the firing of rockets randomly into Israel and the use of suicide bombers. A little rationality would go a long way in defense from prejudice and oppression.

And - people, just speaking abstract of "the palerstianians" don\'t even CARE about palestianians, because they implicitely speak in behalf of hamas/fatah wich are in no way anything good for anony living on palestinian territory.

This also strikes me as rather absurd. How can it be that to say I am in solidarity with the Palestinians, I am pro-Hamas? If you say you are in solidarity with Israel, does that mean you are in favor of the Hebron settlers or renegade settlers that randomly kill Palestinian farmers and villagers in acts of terror? I wouldn\'t assume as much, and I expect the same deference in the other direction.

Even if you regret the effects of isreali selfdefence on pelastinian people you should be aware that you don\'t spek in their interests if you (implicitely) support those clerical antisemiticfascists

Here your own bias is showing pretty gravely. I\'m not sure I need to respond, but I don\'t just "regret" what you call "Israeli self-defense" -- I abhor it and find it wholly unjustified. Relenting to Palestinians\' reasonable demands for a homeland of their own in 22% of Historic Palestine, the return of refugees (as dictated by International treaties signed by Israel), and so forth -- that would be the best move for self-defense that Israel could make, if self-defense is its actual interest.

: MOST PALESTINIANS are killed by palestiniens, by the hamas e.g.

That might actually be true today, but until the last year or so, it definitely was not true. But since Israel created Hamas and has been a major factor in its growth and polarization of Palestinian society, I think one could despise Hamas and despise Israel at the same time, quite consistently.

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Re: Israel/Palestine and Anti-Jews on the Left

By Dominick, Brian at Feb 16, 2008 14:31 PM

I\'ve posted my reply to Jonas in the ZNet Forums, since that area of the site is more conducive to dialog (and longer comments).

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Re: Israel/Palestine and Anti-Jews on the Left

By Cacioppo, Jonas at Feb 16, 2008 13:19 PM

I have some comments and questions, keeping in mind that I completely agree with the spirit of this piece. Here they are: first, you say that \"there are strong genocidal currents even in the mainstream of Israeli politics\". Where? When? Please elaborate. Also, there is this: \"we can draw parallels between modern Israel and Hitler\'s Germany (they do very much exist)\". What parallels are these? In what sense? Finally, on the question of the \"one-state solution,\" would that be a democratic state for both Jews and Arabs and also a homeland for the Jewish people, or some other arrangement?

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By Cacioppo, Jonas at Feb 16, 2008 13:03 PM

Rabbi Lerner\'s Socialism of Fools is invaluable on the very subject you address, an important one that I find often troubling and upsetting. I am very happy you brought this up.

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