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Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Noam Chomsky at Jan 11, 2005

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For some time, the right wing has been warning that if Israel is to deal with the "demographic problem" -- too many non-Jews in a Jewish state -- it is either going to have to expel the Arab population, which is regarded as unfeasible (except insofar as conditions will be made so miserable that those who are able to do will leave), or to draw boundaries in a way that guarantee a Jewish majority for some time to come while retaining effective control over the occupied territories. That's the basic reasoning behind the wall in the West Bank, the infrastructure programs, etc. Much of the initiative has been coming from the right, some of whom have also advocated forcefully transferring parts of Israel with heavy Palestinian population to the cantons that will constitute an eventual "Palestinian state," under the programs that Israeli sociologist Baruch Kimmerling calls "politicide." On the land swaps, it depends what they are.  The proposals at the Taba conference called off by Barak (Jan 2001) were approaching something reasonable.  Those of later proposals, such as the Geneva accords, more so.  To find out what is currently being planned I suggest that you look at a long discussion by Harvey Morris in the London Financial Times, Jan. 4, which includes a proposed map of land swaps.  Lots of complex proposals of swapping among states, which offer nothing but jokes to the Palestinians.  But the most striking feature is that nothing -- precisely nothing -- is to be given to Palestinians by Israel.  They can hope to get away with that as long as the US government (media, etc.) go along, either with silence or deceit, and I suppose it's taken for granted that Blair will meekly follow the master, and that Europe won't tread on his toes.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Feb 08, 2005 01:41 AM
I also don't buy into the argument that people vote for products or services "with their wallets", therefore in the end they choose what gets made or improved. This argument would stand only only if every human had the same power as any other. When power is concentrated the human "value" of things gets distorted and some specialized class gets to make all the important decisions.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Feb 08, 2005 01:38 AM
"The drive of the corporation think tanks and corporation dominated government is for privatization of education, the penitentiaries, and with the contractors now merged with the militry--war, not to speak of Social Security which is probably the only nationalized social program in the United States, and the soundest. The rest of the economy should be private. Interpreneurs give the people a true free-market where competition prevails" In a private economy the only primary inscentive to create a product or service is profit, not the public good. If there is a product or a service that serves the public good, but is not profitable, then they won't make this product or service. This is a strong argument against a for-profit economy.Many of the things that we now need and may be not profitable if privatized. Therefore those things would not have been made in the first place. Also the quality of many things has gone way down after their privatization, in some cases even killing them completely. These are some of the reasons why I think that capitalism and markets are quite possibly some of the worst abominations ever devised by the human species.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Feb 02, 2005 03:11 AM
Dean is an establishment candidate through and through, any illusions that he offers hope is a manufactured illusion of the establishment. But your idea of a peoples party, one that could take the place of the unions and fight for the working class (most of the population) that is a good idea. Nader i have doubts about, he has sort of run his course. We need a new party to offer the working class and minorities the oppertunity to level the playing field (or change it).

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 31, 2005 02:59 AM
"With intensified competitions there will be even more incentives to cut corners." We can can counter these incentives with regulations and penalties for making sub-par products. Furthermore, small businesses simply don't have the clout to f*** around with congress and the legal system in the way the large corporations do now. An independent businessman will almost certainly not have the money to by off a single congressman, let alone enough to pass some shady ass bill. Of course, now that I mention this I wonder if a union of small businesses couldn't screw with the law in the exact same way. But even a union of them wouldn't benefit from the econmy of scale in the way corporations do.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 30, 2005 01:17 AM
I think you're wrong by blaming all the ills of capitalism on the corporations. There is no idication that the truly free market without monopolies would be better. Chance are it is going to be even worse in some aspects. With intensified competitions there will be even more incentives to cut corners. When short term survival is more precarious there will be even a stronger push to ignore long term well being. Coroporations don't own and operate sweatshops. They buy from sweatshops operated by local subcontractors. These are small business people competing with each other in a way that resembles a truly free market.As far as the local economy is concerned the corporations are just foreign customers looking for a bargain. bwong, This is what I was trying to tell John, but he would not listen.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Directing, Canadian at Jan 28, 2005 10:01 AM
bombs with human faces ... walls from the dark ages ... both sides live in a place I care not see.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 28, 2005 06:11 AM
John, I think you're wrong by blaming all the ills of capitalism on the corporations. There is no idication that the truly free market without monopolies would be better. Chance are it is going to be even worse in some aspects. With intensified competitions there will be even more incentives to cut corners. When short term survival is more precarious there will be even a stronger push to ignore long term well being. Coroporations don't own and operate sweatshops. They buy from sweatshops operated by local subcontractors. These are small business people competing with each other in a way that resembles a truly free market.As far as the local economy is concerned the corporations are just foreign customers looking for a bargain. Mondragon is not an instance of a truly free market. It is a different animal altogether.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 28, 2005 02:14 AM
Unfortunatly, the "Evolution" has been confused with the inaccurate phrase "survival of the fittest". Since people assume "fit" to mean "physically fit", meaning strong and fast, people think evolution is nothing more than the survival of the strongest and fastest. However, for evolution, the term "fit" really is closer in meaning to "whatever ends up working". Some animals are slow, dumb, and begging to be killed & eaten, but have so many children that the species survives even though few members ever live to die of old age. Other species survive by finding a "niche" - some task that keeps them alive and isn't filled by any other species. A perfect example is the bird that lives by eating the food between crocodile teeth. Looking at Culture/Society through the lens of Evolution has been tarred by the actions and rhetoric of so-called "Social Darwinists" of the 19th and early 20th century. Most were social scientists who only learned as much about evolution as they needed to support their pre-determined causes. Their simplistic understanding of the process caused them to support all sorts of causes that were simply monsterous, like Eugenics.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 28, 2005 02:01 AM
"Bad inventions soon disappear." Depends what you mean by "bad". One would think that keyboards would be designed to facilitate faster typing, and that a faster keyboard would soon replace a slower one. However, The QWERTY keyboard was designed to SLOW typists down. Back then typing too fast could jam a typewriter. Now, however, it would be beneficial for people to type faster but there is a problem - EVERYONE learns to type on a QWERTY keyboard. If a company wanted to switch over to a faster keyboard it would have to retrain all it's typists. Because of this, no-QWERTY keyboards have still not caught on and the unecessarily slow QWERTY model is still around. VHS beat BETAMAX by marketing not by better tech (BETA was much better from a techincal standpoint). Same with PCs beating MAC. Technology without good marketing and business strategy can die even when it is good. Bad tech can survive through efficient marketing and good busniness strategy. It is the Total Package that gets rejected/accepted, not just the technology.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 08:01 AM
"The war hysteria of the Korean war and the HUAC destroyed it all" But Anne Coulter said McCarthy was right...:). J/K.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 07:56 AM
"The idea of culture evolving in the Darwinian way seems ridiculous to me." Well, we DO have to be careful about over stretching the metaphor. However, it seems obvious to me that particular cultural traits can do one of three things : 1) Assist the peoples adaptation to their environment, 2)Not effect a peoples adaptation to their environment, or 3) Hurt a peoples adaptation to their environment. Environment means ALL of the environment, including other people and cultures, weather, flora & fauna, etc. IT seems logical that, over time, traits which are disadvantageous will be disacarded, while advantageous ones will be picked up (the neutral ones come and go with fate, or when the environment changes and they become helpful or harmful). Its a simple metaphor though, and does have limitations.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 07:49 AM
"apparently your only criteria for dismissing the idea, and your inherent superiority to me not yet being established" Dude, I just meant that it appears that way to ME. I am not trying to imply you are dumb because you do not arrive at the same conclusion. Don't take my lack of faith as an attack on yours.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 05:42 AM
"Social change happens more like biological evolution. Small changes happpen here and there. These changes then interact with the enviroment, some variations will survive and grow while most will be eliminated. Overtime some new structure may take hold." You just read my mind.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 05:41 AM
For instance, My friend works in a law firm that is entering Islamic Finance. Islamic Finance is seriously handicapped by the prohibition on interest, which is essential if you want an economy where borrowing money is not incredibly difficult (and you need that to grow economically). As a result, arranging loans in Islamic countries is quite complicated and annoying. Basically, they have to come up with complex alternate arrangements which essentially mimic the charging of interest, but without actually doing it. This prohibition has retarded their economic growth, but the people believe in it and aren't going to let "mere money" effect a deeply held belief.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 05:35 AM
" While I am no Chritsian I don't think it is fair to criticize Christian doctrines because of the bloody history and behaviour of the Catholic Church." I wouldn't blame Christianity, itself, per se either. Then again, Christianity is a complex made of many smaller beliefs which can be stressed or de-emphasised in any particular commmunity. I WOULD blame the violence and bloodshed on the belief that "All who are not saved will burn". That PART of Christianity, when emphasised, leads directly to the behavior we saw in Spanish America. Priests were known to have baptized Indian babies and then immediately dashed their heads against rocks so that they would die saved before they could re-adopt their "sinful" indian culture. I think Marx overesitmated the economic causes of things. Economics and Culture (including Religion) are connected in complex ways with multiple feedback loops. To believe that Culture/Belief is periphrial to world events is a mistake, in my opinion.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 05:21 AM
"The "market" is also an abstract concept. We can see how market fundamentalism, enforced by the high priests of the world bank and IMF, is wrecking the third world, arguably killed more people than "communism" does" Just for the Record. I do NOT agree with any fundamentalism, including market fundamentalism. Despite her claim to "reason" and being "objective", Ayn Rand was as much an idealist as Karl Marx.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 05:14 AM
"Any "ideology" by definition places abstract concepts abive all else" I'm not sure I agree. The Buddhist and Taoist traditions stress moderation even in belief. Buddha Stressed that being attached to the idea of not being attached was as real an attachment as the attachment to material wealth or power. One of the central Elements to the Buddhist and Taoist traditions is the "limiation of language" - an acknowledgement that any written or verbal dogma will inevitably fall short of fully describing the universe and will be incomplete and non-universal. The Western Philosphical tradition, however, has always focused on producing reasoned and logical philosophies which try and claim universiality. Often I find that they are the products of intelligent minds, well versed in logic and reason, who build very coherent philosophies based on an incomplete view of the world.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 27, 2005 04:59 AM
One example of a small change that takes hold is the micro credit system in India.It does not have the ambitious goal of "eliminating capitalism" but it does lift a lot of people poverty. Eventually something more radical may grow out of it. This also illustrates another principle. The small changes are often the results of haphazard attempts to adapt to local conditions. They are rarely the results of Parecon style grand designs.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 27, 2005 04:50 AM
I have to agree with r4d20 that Parecon is a no brainer. This is the kind of ideologically driven, pie in the sky utiponism we should avoid. No viable economical or social system emerges as a result of sweeping, grand designs. Social change happens more like biological evolution. Small changes happpen here and there. These changes then interact with the enviroment, some variations will survive and grow while most will be eliminated. Overtime some new structure may take hold.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 27, 2005 04:14 AM
Having said that I don't think the harsh conditions in the communist countries are the results of communist ideology, not exclusively anyway. While I am no Chritsian I don't think it is fair to criticize Christian doctrines because of the bloody history and behaviour of the Catholic Church.While Jesus did ask children to approach him. You can't blame Jesus when the priests interprete that as a licence for pedophilia. BTW Marx said parctically nothing about what a communist society would look like. He was mainly a critic of capitalism and a remarkably insightful one.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 27, 2005 04:13 AM
"This is a structural flaw of Communism. Placing the importance of an abstract ideal (be it private property OR social justice) above all conventional morality WILL ALWAYS result in evil and oppression. It will ALWAYS reward and promote those few cruel people who are willing to hurt and kill in order to advance the cause" Any "ideology" by definition places abstract concepts abive all else. The "market" is also an abstract concept. We can see how market fundamentalism, enforced by the high priests of the world bank and IMF, is wrecking the third world, arguably killed more people than "communism" does. The problem is not necessarily with abstract ideas,they can help us understand the wotld and guild our actions. The problems are the people who take abstract ideas too seriously.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 27, 2005 03:50 AM
In the 1960's the Chinese communists were telling the people they had to build the bomb for socialism. Meanwhile in Pakistan mullahs were sermonizing the faithful that they had to build "the Islamic bomb" for Allah.They never explained why would Allah need a bomb. The bomb is nowhere mentioned in the Koran. Idealogical banners sometimes are just that: banners. It is not to say that convictions play absolutely no role but it is easy to fall in the trap of analysing an ideology in isolation from the material context. All "isms" are bound to be distorted and deformed when you try to implement them in the real world.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 27, 2005 03:43 AM
"but he appropriated a lot of techiniques and slogans from commmunists because they were effective for totalitarian use as well." r4d20 I think Hitler appropiated these slogans because thet were popular with the German working class. Remember the Nazis, the socialists and the communists were competing for support from the same people,--the German public. Given the economical realities of Germany in the 1930's, anyone who hope to maintain power have to incorporate some "socialist policies". In the same way if a revolution happens in a peasant society land reform would likely occur whether it is a "communist" revolution or not. IMO Marx was absolutely correct about one thing. If you want to understand history look at the material conditions. The "isms" to some extent just provide the vocabularies to articulate what people are doing anyway.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 01:52 AM
"Anarchism has nothing to do with rejecting technology. That is a completely unfounded assumption." Not theoretically at least. I've read around Znet and seen descriptions of Anarchism. Frankly, I think there is simply NO WAY that one of these small anarchist commmunities could manufacture, for example, and Integrated Circut, like a CPU. These best you could hope for is that several communuities would devote themselves to each EXCLUSIVELY making one of the underlying technologies and then sending their output to the next community for integration at the next level. When the final "community" puts the whole thing together and starts making circut boards it will have to trade them to other communities for the Goods IT needs as well as the goods needed to be passed down to the communities invovled in the underlying technologies. Keep going down this road and you end with with "Anarchist communities" that are, in reality, Companies.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 01:35 AM
Its not confined to Russia Either. All over the world Communist parties paralyzed themselves with infighting over doctrinal disputes. Communists were more concerned with Orthodoxy than the Medieval Catholic church.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 01:21 AM
Simple Logic: What can be "wrong" if done in the service of the people? Nothing. Anything that helps the people is good. Anything that helps communism helps the people. Killing off millions of reactionaries helps communism. Therefore - killing millions of reactionaries is good. This is a structural flaw of Communism. Placing the importance of an abstract ideal (be it private property OR social justice) above all conventional morality WILL ALWAYS result in evil and oppression. It will ALWAYS reward and promote those few cruel people who are willing to hurt and kill in order to advance the cause. We don't need EVERYBODY to be selfish for communism to fail - we only need "a few bad men".

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 27, 2005 01:21 AM
The question of whether or not Lenin and Stalin were communists is interesting, but ultimately unimportant. What is important was that Communism provided a Philosophical framework that they could use to seize power. Hitler is commonly regarded as right win, and with justification, but he appropriated a lot of techiniques and slogans from commmunists because they were effective for totalitarian use as well. Lenin started early in using communist ideals to justify the purging of non-communists. During this time, TRUE communists SUPPORTED the purges. It was only when Stalin turned the Purges agaisnt (gasp) Communists, that they started to whine. When Lenin was butchering the Social Democrats, Socialist Revolutionaries, and other parties, however, they supported it as a necessary step towards implementing world communism.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 26, 2005 21:23 PM
"It is time for us to Take the Howard Dean approach and organize a powerful third party" How about Ralph Nadar?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 26, 2005 16:30 PM
r4, So you are not the heartless bastard that I thought you were. Nevertheless, theft is theft; thus, exploitation must go whatever else we do. The Parecon folks have some viable ideas of what could be done instead. Moreover, I think you overestimate the amount of disagreement amongst people over what must be produced: it's food/water, clothing, shelters, and medical services. Beyond that, people could work on their own to satisfy their other wants.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 26, 2005 10:11 AM
Graeme, You're right, it should be "Meiji". I just did a transliteration from Chinese hoping it was correct.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 26, 2005 08:02 AM
This is a common feature of all ambitious nation building projects whether undertaken under the "communist" banner or not. The "Manji restoration" which transformed Japan in the late 19th centry from a feudal, backward argrian society into a mordern industrial and military power in only a few decades. It was also very brutal with massive exploition of the peasants. Emperor worship was used to whip up quasi religious fervor from the worker ants. Japan's experience had a lot of similarities with the so called "communist" countries even though it was a constitional monarchy.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 26, 2005 08:01 AM
Stalin and Mao were motivated by nationalism and legacy building. Mao did have a hint of romantic idealism, but it was a deformed kind of peasant utopianism with a Chinese origin rather than Marxism. Mao admitted he never read Marx except for a few pages in the Communist manifesto. The great challenge to these men was not to build "socialism" but modernization. Rapid mordernization of the titantic scale of Russia and China could only be achieved through the whip. Foced collectivation and work camps are the tool for mass mobilization which is essential for such projects. "Communism" is just a pretext.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 26, 2005 07:58 AM
John, I don't think Stalin was trying to foce socialism on an unwilling population. Stalin was no wide eye ideologue(Trotsky might fit that picture a lot better)He was the great cynic. It seems to me he was driven by good old nationalism, egoism and paranoia. His goals were to transform Russia into a great Empire and hold on to political power. "Socialism" was very low in his priority list. In fact he succeeded, through great brutality. He was a great Tsar in the traditional sense rather than a "communist" leader. None of the great leaders of the communist world since Lenin was truly "socialists".

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 26, 2005 07:45 AM
r4d20, All of the problems you mention would occur in any form of democratic decision making, in any organization and setting.So what is your alternative? Bring back the King? Obviously there is a lot more room to make the current system more democratic and more responsive to human needs.You don't need the second coming to achieve that. No one is talking about a perfect world.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 26, 2005 05:07 AM
In the absense of a majority consensus the ONLY alternative is to have some minority make the decisions. ALL political philosophies are nothing more than different answers to the questions of "who will be the annointed?". Some claim to get rid to the annointed altogether, but I've not seen one that can deliver on the promise.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 26, 2005 04:50 AM
Deciding on an economic plan is not an either-or proposition - one almost always has more than 2 choices available. If we were to socially distribute all goods and services we would be faced with thousands of potential plans for allocating the resources in our society. Even if we all voted on these plans with perfectly altruistic intentions we would almost certainly not achieve a majority vote on any particular plan. Different people would have honest, ggod faith, disagreements about what plans were best. In fact, with a national refferendum it is unlikely you would be able to even get a consensus after many, many, rounds of voting. The practical issues of doing it in this kind of democratic fashion are HUGE. I've been in parlimentary meetings that dragged on for hours over minor issues - how can we expect debates over key isses that effect everyone's lives to go smooth?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 26, 2005 04:38 AM
"You refuse to even consider the possibility that the root of the problem is an economic system that allows those with certain skills and no consciences to exploit and oppress everyone else." YES capitalism results in injustice and poverty. YES this bothers me. Ask my opinions, don't assume them. None of those two things mean that any of the so-far proposed replacements are going to be any better. Frankly, non of them look viable to me at all. They all look structurally weak and vulnerable to the creation of a power-elite that will have even more power over people than the Capitalists do today. Frankly, I am amazed that you guys don't see these structural flaws, but I don't assume that you have bad motives because of it. Acknowledging the injustice inherent in capitalism does not mean that one has to believe in socialism, anarchism, facism, whatever. IF I heard of a system I thought would actually make life better I would support it. If I was completely devoted to laissez-faire capitalism I wouldn't be on znet. But, until I see a better system I am not going to blindly advocate for change simply to explore other options.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 26, 2005 02:49 AM
r4, And you wonder why you have become the "poster boy for the evils of capitalism": the fact that millions of people live in abject poverty while a select few live in luxury, which capitalism allows, does not bother you AT ALL. Is it their fault? Are they all lazy? Should we put it all down to corrupt govts.? You refuse to even consider the possibility that the root of the problem is an economic system that allows those with certain skills and no consciences to exploit and oppress everyone else.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 26, 2005 02:41 AM
bwong and r4 (the asshole), Since when did teaching college students make one an "intellectual pedophile"? r4, you would get laughed out of a classroom full of intelligent students; they would see you as the shallow minded apologist that you are.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 26, 2005 02:36 AM
What does Joe Stalin have to do with the question of whether or not capitalism is evil. His being evil is consistent with the latter being evil. In other words, one can happily acknowledge that Stalin was a moral monster (which Lenin himself realized) and also decry capitalism. He is, thus, a red herring.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 25, 2005 08:59 AM
"I had just come back from a war where Russia under Stalin was our ally. At that time just about anybody with an IQ higher than their waist size either was a communist or thought that communism was a success in Russia" Yeah, after demonstrating the ability to take the Nazi invasion and bounce back, I can see why a lot of people thought it must have something going for it.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 25, 2005 08:08 AM
"Most are drawn to it because of their vision of a better world. Some, however, are drawn to it because of their personal hatred for the current order.." There are no doubt some people who just want to enjoy the priviledge of abusing others, but I think the reason behind many Stalin apologists is more inncocent than that. It is just difficult to admit to yourself that you have been conned after you have invested your whole lifetime in believeing something which turned out to be a lie. I met an elderly Chinese man who has been imprisoned and tortured during the cultural revolution. But he would kill you if you say anything disparaging about Mao in his presence. He was convinced that Mao didn't know anything about the atrocities that had occured because he was misled by the people who surrounded him. This is no different from anyone who clings on to a cherished belief even though evidence suggests he shouldn't. The belief system may be religious faith or capitalism, for examples.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 25, 2005 05:20 AM
John, I'm really curious. Why didn't you believe Stalin was a madman? Did you not have the information or were you just commited to socialism and didn't want to believe? I'm not trying to pass judgement. I'm just young and curious to hear it from someone who lived then rather than from history books.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 25, 2005 05:10 AM
"When I asked him about Stalin's murderous exploits, I expected him to say that it was a Western fabrication. But no, he replied that of course Stalin killed all those people. But then he added indignantly that too bad he didn't kill them bastards enough..." Bwong, Like any Philosophy, people are drawn to socialism for a variety of different reasons. Most are drawn to it because of their vision of a better world. Some, however, are drawn to it because of their personal hatred for the current order. They are not anti-elitist or antiauthoritarian, they just want to change the elites in authority. This is a major reason why so many German Socialists ended up as commited Nazis.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 24, 2005 22:42 PM
John, I accept your apology and hope that you will do likewise for my outburst. To clarify where we stand, I hate corporations, but I also hate the exploitation done by small business owners. Where do you stand on the latter?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 24, 2005 22:39 PM
" Motherfucker, I've brought it on and you at least have been found wanting. Or are you implying that might makes right?" What are you, some character from "You got Served"? You served me. I served you back. So now....ITS ON.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 24, 2005 22:37 PM
"And guys, chill out, it's just the internet! " But we're trying to save the world man :)

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 24, 2005 22:35 PM
r4d20, Motherfucker, I've brought it on and you at least have been found wanting. Or are you implying that might makes right?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 24, 2005 22:12 PM
"Intellectual pedophile"? I have to say that is very smart. :)

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 24, 2005 19:25 PM
"You would be suprised how easily young people accept my analysis of why their working lives are so miserable" Targeting the young because you can't make any progress on anyone with maturity? You are an intellectual pedophile.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 24, 2005 19:21 PM
"There are millions of highly intelligent people who are deliberately using the corporate system to their advantage as we speak. They know what they are doing and ought to be held accountable, pace John" And were going to be held acoountable by who? You? Bring it on man, bring it on.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 24, 2005 19:19 PM
" I am using my computer, one of the few luxuries I own, to defend the rights of workers, following the example of Prof. Chomsky. That means I am a part of the solution, not the problem, as the hippies used to say." Man, you certainly are good at lying to yourself.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 24, 2005 19:16 PM
"My opinion is progressive minded people should not to make peole like him feel like an idiot, but rather try to explain to him the hypocricy of his ideals." Great... So now I am the posterboy for the evils of capitalism.....

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 24, 2005 08:42 AM
"I believed at one time that Joe Stalin was a great man. I was convinced that his slaughter of his own people was a fiction of the capitalist press. Do you want me to return like a dog to its vomit? " John Well, a few years ago I met this pot smoking Stalinist who owned several big houses at the upper east side of Manhattan. He was not an "ex-Stalinist", he was(and presummably still is) a Stalinist. When I asked him about Stalin's murderous exploits, I expected him to say that it was a Western fabrication. But no, he replied that of course Stalin killed all those people. But then he added indignantly that too bad he didn't kill them bastards enough so as soon as Stalin died the counter revolutionaries restored themselves and set off the chain of events that led to the demise of the U.S.S.R. I heard he was such a PR nightmare that even the local Stalinist party(apparantly they still exist!)excommunicated him. So John, don't be too harsh on your former self :) And guys, chill out, it's just the internet!

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 23, 2005 22:01 PM
You can't read either, John boy. Did I say anything about a "blinding light hitting people"? No, I am talking about patiently building support for my ideas, which I know is doable, because I and other have done it. You would be suprised how easily young people accept my analysis of why their working lives are so miserable. I don't need to appeal to abstractions like you do. I just lay it on the line: there are flesh and blood creatures who are STEALING YOUR TIME. You, on the other hand, act like things were hunky dory for workers before the rise of large corporations. Any intelligent student would point that out to you. Thus, the problem runs deeper than corporate misconduct, as bwong pointed out to you. BTW, I'll bet you can't even prove that corporations exist over and above the people involved in them.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 23, 2005 21:34 PM
You're the fucking idiot, Johnny. I wipe the floor with pseudointellectuals like you, just ask Maurice and the other peabrains who have challenged me. (And don't cry about the name-calling, motherfucker, because you started it; I intend now to treat you with the same contempt I have towards the other people posting here who have called me names.) Profit is not selling your house for a higher price than what you paid for it. Profit is entailed by EXPLOITATION: forcing workers to create wealth that is not returned to them. If you had read my previous posts instead of just shooting off your big mouth, you would have realized that I meant the term in this Marxist sense. Do not call me your "friend" either, because I know you do not mean it. But I will say this much: there are other of ways of making workers miserable besides having them work for corporations, plantations comes to mind. So your target is much too narrow. And don't bother again with the Stalin canard: that only shows how shallow you are- I am not advocating a Soviet style economy.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 23, 2005 06:11 AM
John, It all starts with a certain mind-set: the unwillingess to see profit for what it is- theft. Once enough workers realize that their time is being stolen, they will simply take control of the means of production. The capitalists will either go along with being workers themselves, no longer allowed to exploit others, or find themselves in prison. The folks you mention do not stress this notion; they are reformers not revolutionaries. But justice cannot be achieved within a capitalist society, no matter who is in charge.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 22, 2005 23:22 PM
bwong, It's not just a "few psychopaths" who oppress us, just as the Holocaust was not the outcome of the behavior of a handful of high-ranking Nazis. There are millions of highly intelligent people who are deliberately using the corporate system to their advantage as we speak. They know what they are doing and ought to be held accountable, pace John

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 22, 2005 23:12 PM
John, I am using my computer, one of the few luxuries I own, to defend the rights of workers, following the example of Prof. Chomsky. That means I am a part of the solution, not the problem, as the hippies used to say. The privileged class is made up of the people in my economic strata and the ones above it who either don't see the problem or do and don't give a damn. You want to let those individuals off the hook and blame the corporate system instead. I refuse to buy that analysis. Nazism is evil, yes, but that does not entail that real live Nazis were blameless. Besides, I never said that I was blameless, only that it is people not systems to which blame must be attached here. Part of my solution is to get people to SEE capitalists as slaveholders. I cannot accomplish that by blaming the system, giving readers the impression that the poor capitalists are its victims as well, overcome by forces beyond their control.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 22, 2005 22:02 PM
I am not arguing there aren't a few psychopaths in high places such as the cabal that surround George Bush. But a few psychopaths alone cannot control a complex sysem like global capitalism unless these guys(and gals now that feminism has made some progress) are some evil genuises with intellegence vastly superior to the normal earthlings and posess the power to keep track of details way beyone the best super computers. Sure it doesn't look that way if you have hear Bush talks.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 22, 2005 21:51 PM
I agree it is important to point out blatant corporate crimes and abuses. But focusing too much on corporate scandles conveys the wrong impression that the undelying system is basically sound even if it needs some tune up, saying closing a few loop holes. It is very easy to turn the issue into mere corporate governace if your critique stops at that level.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 22, 2005 21:48 PM
The interactions between the micro(individual) and macro(structures and institutions) is a complicated one rifed with paradoxes and feed back loops. Individual behaviours are mediated by local, immediate considerations(say, saving up money for your retirement, have a secure job,etc). The local actions undertaken by individuals together guide the evolution of instituitions. The institutions and macro features of the society in turn constraint and modify the behaviours of individuals.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 22, 2005 21:46 PM
Our economy is structured in such a way that it depends on corporate profits. If a major company, say GM, loses the confidence of the shareholders and goes busted many people will lose their jobs and the rippled effect would be felt through the entire economy. The corporations are just an instituitional manifestation of a very dysfunctional economical system in which we all take part in some ways. It's too easy to blame a few "psychopaths" who occupy the high position. The president of GM is replacable too. And I am darn sure he will be replaced for being irresponsibe with the shareholder's money if he suddenly has a vision,--say after reading John's posts on the znet,--and turns into a leftist and acts like one.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 22, 2005 21:44 PM
For example, the Ontario teacher pension funds is one of the largest investor here in Canada. The fund manager decides where to invest but he is just a paid employee. His job is to maximize profit for the share holders,--pensioners. It has nothing to do with his personal ethics, if he fails to do his job he would be fired and join the unemployed. It is interesting to note the perverse dynamics at work here. The worker wants to have a well paid, secure job on the one hand, on the other hand, as an investor(through a union run pension fund, say) the same person desires maximal return for his hard earned dollar so he can have something for his retirement. This creates the pressure for whoever managing the pension fund to invest the dollar in the most profitable corporations, often the exact ones that engage in union busting, outsourcing and downsizing.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 22, 2005 21:42 PM
"I agree that the corporate system is rotten to the core; but that does not excuse those agents who willingly take part in it. " Who are those agents? Perhaps YOU!! If you have a pension plan(say, you're in the union) you are contributing to the corporate dynamics that you spoke of. The so called corporate agents are mere employees who serve the shareholders and the share holder may be YOU! Some may argue that small shareholders such as pensioners don't hold much sway. But that is completely wrong. The accumulated effect of amounts can be very huge.Pension funds are MAJOR players in the finacial markets.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 22, 2005 19:20 PM
"(But these human beings are paid for by the corporations to adhere to their prime directive, which is the bottom line." No, these human beings are paid by other human beings. Corporate heads are ultimately responsible for the evil deeds you mention, although their minions who enthusiasically carry them out share in the blame. "You can cart all of the priveliged class to the guillotine in your tumbrils but if you leave the corporations, you haven't done a damned thing." I agree that the corporate system is rotten to the core; but that does not excuse those agents who willingly take part in it. Without them, the system would be inoperable. Those who overcome the privileged class will also abolish the corporate system, for they will be seeking to destroy all means of exploitation.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 22, 2005 07:43 AM
Damphouse, As I have said before, I am beyond trying to influence shameless apologists such as r4d20. My goal instead is to leave no doubt in the mind of anyone who might be won over to our side that he is a fool.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 22, 2005 07:35 AM
But John, it is humans who run corporations and, thus, insofar as we oppose the latter, we must be at war, intellectually speaking, with those amongst the former who defend the status quo.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 22, 2005 01:32 AM
And don't hand me any shit about your supposedly great work ethic either. You don't work any harder than the vast majority of those millions of impoverished people for whom you lack compassion.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 22, 2005 01:26 AM
Just once I'd like to see you give some indication that you are at least mildly disturbed by the fact that millions of people live in abject poverty while others enjoy luxuries at their expense. Have you no shame?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 22, 2005 01:18 AM
r4d20, bwong, graeme, and John are wiping the floor with you, but, since you are not concerned with justice but only yourself, their arguments are not resonating with you. Such moral obtuseness is typical of defenders of capitalism.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 21, 2005 03:25 AM
"The key point is "skills" are only valuable if the THOSE HAVE MONEY demand it. Thank you for spelling out the rule of the game. What is so natural about this rule?" If there were no money and I wanted food, for instance, I would need to get my own or barter with those who have it for something else. Same for any other material. Is this natural? To me...yes. There is nothing natural about the particular people who have goods to offer, but everything natural about needing to offer someone something in exchange for something else.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 20, 2005 11:05 AM
Opps, I meant "Reward based on any criteria is a social fiction, not a law of nature"

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 20, 2005 11:02 AM
"1) Are you saying that a person who can run should not be allowed to make much money because running isn't socially important? OR 2) Are you saying that a person who can run fast has no right to demand payment for that service if no one is willing to pay?" I am saying natural ability and monetary reward are two different things. Reward based on any criteria is a social fiction, not a law of natural. There is no natural law that says a person should be allowed to accomulate without limit no matter how "skilled" he is. This is a social fiction. In other society a skilled person who contribute to the community might be rewarded simply by peer recognition. If you save someone from a burning house you will be praised and perhaps be named a local hero.But surly you don't expect a cash prize!

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 20, 2005 10:39 AM
"One earns money by satisfying the needs to those who have it. Some skills will naturaly be more in demand than others, and people with these skills will be able to tade their skills for more money. This is what I mean by natural ability - I did not presuppose what abilties they were. " The key point is "skills" are only valuable if the THOSE HAVE MONEY demand it. Thank you for spelling out the rule of the game. What is so natural about this rule? There are lots of need for basic health care, basic literarcy and basic infracstructures in the developing world. Yet these are not addressed because these demands are not backed up with $$$. On the other hand, I don't remember the exact number, but it is something crazy like the richest 5 or 10 people in the world have the combined assets of the 40 poorest countries. Resources and talents are allocated to produce toys and bombs for the rich rather than to satisfy the basic needs of the poor. Is that what a just system would produce, by any reasonable definition of justice? What is so natural about this?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 20, 2005 09:58 AM
"Why is it then that Sweden, for instance, has a much higher level of economic and social equality than, say, the UK, and yet also has a greater operating surplus and a higher annual growth rate?" I don't know much about Seweden, but from I do know it is not really socialist and is, nothing like the type of socialism I was objecting to. Sweden still has rich people and poor people - just because they have national health care doesn't make them socialist. But when you say things like ... "Reducing inequality means doing away with our current system and replacing it with one that allows everyone the freedom to acheive what they want in life without infringing on others' rights to do the same (the complete opposite of our current system, in other words)." I don't think of Sweden - I think of Radical Revolutionary Change. What is it you are wanting? Sweden or Utopia?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 20, 2005 09:21 AM
""Earning" money is not a "natural ability". We invented money and along with the reward system that goes with it. Nature has noting to do with it." One earns money by satisfying the needs to those who have it. Some skills will naturaly be more in demand than others, and people with these skills will be able to tade their skills for more money. This is what I mean by natural ability - I did not presuppose what abilties they were. "Being able to run fast is a natural ability. But who is to say that being a fast runner should carry a monetary reward?" I don't get you'r point. 1) Are you saying that a person who can run should not be allowed to make much money because running isn't socially important? OR 2) Are you saying that a person who can run fast has no right to demand payment for that service if no one is willing to pay? I agree with 2 and not with 1. But, to me, 2 is the first step in capitalism.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 20, 2005 09:12 AM
I should also mention that in a Capitalist society "success"(no matter how dubious the definition maybe) is rarely the result of "natural ability" alone. Opportunities to get an education, opportunities to meet the right people, opportunities to build the right network are much more important than natural ability. Like everything else, "opportunities" are commodities that need to be purchased. Having the luck to be born into a middle class family often counts a lot more than "natural ability". One cannot have "freedom" without opportunity. A more equal society would mean more opportunities for more people as well, not just the equality of conditions.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 20, 2005 08:56 AM
"The more you want to reduce these inequalities, the more you must control what people are allowed to earn, even if a result of natural ability, and what people are allowed to do with what they earn" "Earning" money is not a "natural ability". We invented money and along with the reward system that goes with it. Nature has noting to do with it. Being able to run fast is a natural ability. But who is to say that being a fast runner should carry a monetary reward?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 20, 2005 08:51 AM
There is nothing inherently "natural" about economical Darwinism. It is a man made rule that the size of your wallet should determine your worthiness as a human being. There was a time(warrior societies) when everyone thought "naturally" the guy who could beat up the most people, the guy who could murder, rape and pillage with the most abandon should get the big prize. Now we think such a person should be locked up in jail.(well, at least theoretically) The rule of the game has changed.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 20, 2005 08:43 AM
If Hayek were very sick I wonder if he would tell himself that since medication does not work for some people and it may have bad side effect, surgery may kill him, he should therefore do nothing and let nature takes its course, hoping for the best. A thoughtful person will carefully look at different options to minize the risk. It may turn out that doing nothing is the least risk, but you don't opt for inaction simply because "it could be worse". It is true that attempted social change may lead to something worse. But I am not suggesting a Marxist revolution or some pie in the sky solutions. There are many "redistributive" measures which are shown to be working to different degrees, ranging from worker cooperatives to progressive taxation.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 20, 2005 08:41 AM
"We can haggle over regulations all day, but in the end I do believe that competition is a better way to decide the answer than having some person, or group of people, do it." It may be difficult to come up with a definition of "justice" to the satisfaction of philosophers, but I think most people would know intuitively that a system that produces grotesque inequality and extreme concentration of wealth is unjust. The outcome is enough to demand changing the rule of the game. You basically say that since we cannot predict with 100% certainty that we will get something better we should just do nothing. This is basically Hayek's philosophy, which I think is fundamentally flawed.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 20, 2005 08:13 AM
"In a capitalist society options have to be purchased. In a class society inequality of power means everyone don't have the same options." You cannot increase some freedoms without reducing others. I don't see any way to give everyone the same exact freedom to speak AND the exact same freedom to choose their career AND the exact same freedom to choose what they will do with their property etc. Allowing people a good amount of individual freedom inevitably results in economic inequailites that are a result of natural ability and work ethic. These inequalities will tend to increase over time if left to themselves for two reasons. 1 the children of able people are more likely to be able and 2 they will have already inherited some wealth from their parents. The more you want to reduce these inequalities, the more you must control what people are allowed to earn, even if a result of natural ability, and what people are allowed to do with what they earn. At least, I'd like it if someone could explain how it would be possible without doing these things.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 20, 2005 07:55 AM
"So in your opinion who should be on top on the food chain and who should be at the bottom? Why?" I'm not sure, but I am sure that I should not be making decisions like that. If I was I'd try to use my power to do good, but end up being corrupted by power like every other dictator. We can haggle over regulations all day, but in the end I do believe that competition is a better way to decide the answer than having some person, or group of people, do it. I'm not talking economic anarchy or anything like uber-libertarians, but I don't think society should not go to far in forcing the redistribution of wealth according to some persons idea of "justice".

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 20, 2005 06:46 AM
"Freedom" implies the existence of options. In a capitalist society options have to be purchased. In a class society inequality of power means everyone don't have the same options. In a society with a lot of inequalities many people have very limited options. It is a cruel joke to tell someone he has the "freedom" to "choose" between sleeping in the gutter or under the bridge. Material security is the necessary condition of all freedom. Equality is the basis of freedom, not its antithesis. People who have plenty of options often fail to understand this, not necessarily out of malice, just lacking in empathy. Granted that freedom of speech is important, but this is hardly the ultimate yardstick of how free a society is.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 20, 2005 05:21 AM
"We should all be equal before the law. Other than that there is no right to be equal in an economic or social sense. "r4d20 So in your opinion who should be on top on the food chain and who should be at the bottom? Why? Please clarify. PS Well I don't know what do you mean exactly by "social sense", I would agree with you in the sense that pompous dopes like 7 natures who only know how to regurgitate from dead people aren't going to be popular in parties.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 20, 2005 03:53 AM
"War over hunting grounds was not caused by greed--but neccesity" Tribes would fight often for the BEST of unequal hunting grounds. They didn't share their gounds or rotate in a fair manner. The strongest took the best ones and the weak ones got stuck with what was left, if anything. When the weak felt strong enough, or were desperate enough, they would come back and fight again to try and get a better place. Alsaska, for instance, was settled by tribes who had been kicked off better land in Asia. The history of human expansion is the history of weaker tribes being forced off the good land and having to risk a voyage to find another livable spot.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 20, 2005 02:13 AM
"Your freedom to blog is more important than the freedom from genocide of a million people?" Where did this come from? Genocide? Unless there in a direct conection betweeen my blogging and their deaths I fail to see what you are talking about. The example is totally unrealitstic. To use a more realistic example..... The right of free speech for racists, religious bigots, and gay-bashers, trumps the rights of people to who are offended by their rhetoric. And, yes, that includes dudes like Farakahn, who spew racist rhetoric against people like me.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 20, 2005 02:06 AM
"You are correct in that all people are equal, or rather, they should be." No they are not and should not be. We should all be equal before the law. Other than that there is no right to be equal in an economic or social sense.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 19, 2005 23:04 PM
I find it meaningless to squabble over labels. Instead of arguing what is "left", what is 'right", I think it is a lot more useful to talk about concrete situations. For example, we have established both Enigma and r4d2o are against Soviet style communism(Enigma may prefer to call it state capitalism). So in fact you guys are in agreement over the substance (at least on this one)! Incidentally, EVERYONE is for "freedom, equality and social justice", including the slave owning founding fathers of the U.S. I have not yet heard of anyone who proudly proclaims he is against these cherished ideas. The devil is in the fine print. How do you interprete these loaded words in a given situation? That is the key IMO.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 19, 2005 22:54 PM
"From each, according to his ability" means someone else decides what I am capoable of and how much I will work. I do not get to choose." r4d20 well that is a strange interpretation of the statement "to each accoording to his ability" But let's accpet your interpretation for the moment. Is it the case right now? Unless you're self employed, someone else (your prospective employer) would decide what you are capable of and tell you exactly how many hours you will work. In some cases it may be zero.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 19, 2005 22:48 PM
"As you can see I have little use for your position. Free speech means the right to say what you want regardless of who you are or who you are hurting. " r4d20 The statement you quoted does not represent my own view, I was merely trying to clarify Overt's message. In a previous post I stated I am against speech code simply on the ground that some people may be offended. I draw the line when the speeche incites violence.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 19, 2005 22:47 PM
"Speech codes are designed to protect the powerless from the powerful.The powerful, on the other hand, do not need such protection." me "Who is "the powerful"? White people? Men? Who? Who gets to decide that I'm "powerful" enough to not need rights? ' r4d20 Good question! That is one reason(among others)I am against speech codes. There are too many grey areas for one thing.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 22:46 PM
One final note on trust - trust is something, I believe, that should be freely given. People should always receive the benefit of the doubt; however, once the trust is given, it must be constantly earned. I am not so arrogant to think that my trust is anything special, to be given to those only worthy - however, keeping my trust is not an easy task - and so, if you cannot handle the responsibility that comes with my trust, do not accept it.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 22:41 PM
(ctd ...) "I know. You want the rghts of the powerless to take precedence over the rights of the powerful. I think they are all equal." Its funny, but even though you don't understand what you are saying, you are correct. You are correct in that all people are equal, or rather, they should be. Reality is different. In reality, you have take into account social status, wealth, etc - and therefore, not all are equal. In this reality, the under-privileged have less of a say in matters that directly affect them, so I feel that it is my responsibility, as a socially responsible and compassionate participant of society, to help those that cannot be heard. I believe that we all have this responsibility. Some just choose to ignore it. As much fun as it has been, it is not my wish or place to educate you unless you request it. I will have to terminate our dialog here because there is no logic in sharing ideas and thoughts with someone who choses not to listen - which is, as you have tried to argue, your right. Feel free to post whatever you wish in response to this, as I will no longer respond to you on this matter - it isn't going anywhere.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 22:32 PM
R4D20. "And let me thank you in advance for YOUR hard work in supplying MY needs." Hey, if I have to work a little extra so that you can survive in life, it would be my pleasure to do so. This is sharing, and caring for community members - this is what is missing in the US right now. However, when we say what we need, we are talking about only the essentials. So, I'll give you your food, your beer (althought you could choose a better brand) and items you need to prepare your food. Everything else, you will have to provide for yourself. Again, you distort fact with your fiction. At first, this was fun, but its becoming redundant. "I just don't see how you can have communism and let people lie to get out of work and/or lie about what they need. However, people are going to do that." Your assessment of communism is flawed because you fail, and will continue to fail, to think of anyone/think outside yourself. You cannot do it - you appear to be selfish in nature and have little regard for others. This has been evident from the start, and therefore, communism for you will fail. I have no dispute with you on this point.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 22:08 PM
"This is the essence of communism - much of it is based on trust that you or your neighbours will not abuse the system." I don't trust people I don't know. And there are some people I know better than to trust. I expect people to earn my trust, and I expect to have to EARN the trust of others. Naive people don't live long or happy lives.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 22:05 PM
"I do not advocate that the rights of those who have power take precedence over those. Rather, I'm arguing the opposite... the EXACT opposite." I know. You want the rghts of the powerless to take precedence over the rights of the powerful. I think they are all equal. The right of free speech, for powerful and powerless alike, trumps the right to feel safe and secure - for powerful and powerless alike. I support freedom of speech for both Farakahn and the KKK - I don't pick and choose based on current social factors.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 22:01 PM
" According to his ability to me means, "I do what I can do, and that is all that is expected of me." - Overt I have workatitis and laboranoma. That means I am only capable of 2 hours of light work a day,performed when seated. "This means that you take what you need. But YOU define what YOU need." - Overt In that case, I need a playstation3, a big screen TV, a microwave, lots of good food, and about an 1/8 oz of good, dank, bud a week. And let me thank you in advance for YOUR hard work in supplying MY needs. I just don't see how you can have communism and let people lie to get out of work and/or lie about what they need. However, people are going to do that. So there must be an enforcement body that decides when someone is not working as hard as they should, or which ties rewards to work. Allowing people to pick their workload AND their reward CANNOT work.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 19, 2005 21:55 PM
Greed is one of man's 7 Natures. The excess GREED of todays Billionaires is only the result of inflation. Nothing has changed to change the nature of man. Throw in the Psychopaths of history like Dumbya, as you call him, or Osama or Hitler or Hussein or Reagan or Blair or Castro or or or and the rest of humanity has to live with the consequences of truly evil men.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 21:22 PM
For the record, Communism - in its true sense is too idealistic and probably unattainable give the level of greed that exists today. This may change in the future. Rather, I am an advocate of social democracy. I think this is the best system. Again, I ask our readers to excuse the errors in my post (and there are many).

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 21:18 PM
(ctd ...) "To each accoreding to his needs" means someone else decides what I need and what I get. I am not allowed to change my fortunes by my own effort, but only given what I am deemed to deserve." This means that you take what you need. But YOU define what YOU need. This espouses sharing and not indulging in excess. This is the essence of communism - much of it is based on trust that you or your neighbours will not abuse the system. How did you get what you are told that you need. As soon as you add the "what I am deemed to deserve" - you are either talking about - a) The present US work ethic. b) A totalitarian regime. In any case, you lose the essence of communism.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 21:17 PM
R4D20. "From each, according to his ability" means someone else decides what I am capoable of and how much I will work. I do not get to choose." How did you get to this conclusion? According to his ability to me means, "I do what I can do, and that is all that is expected of me." How do you get that as a dictation of what is expected from you? Our current economic structure - where you work for someone else, fits under your present understanding.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 21:05 PM
R4D20. " Its obvious that you define anything you don't like as right-wing." You're right. My views are cemented in the political left (for the most part), but that doesn't mean that I haven't considered my anti-thesis as carefully as I have my own thesis. For you to make that assumption is irresponsible. "Communism, by any commonly agreed standard, is left wing. " This is correct, but let me ask you this (instead of assuming) - what is your definition of communism? Tell me and then I'll clarify my position with references.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 19, 2005 21:04 PM
Hitler went too far and abused his power and became hated and feared. People squatted and pee'd in fear of his power. If he had not been so arrogantly offensive he may have won. But the fact is that the Russians won the war by being even worse. The US has the might right now. A truth of history is that money and power are the same thing. The China / India / Billions of People Effect will change the balance of power in the world. 15 years from now the world will be a much different place.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 21:01 PM
R4D20. You do not understand my point. Try to remove your emotions from our debate, which I have immensely enjoyed (sorry if I have been a little hard on you), and read your words: "People in America want freedom - individual freedom. They will support liberal policies insofar as they increase freedom - but they draw the line at those leftwing ideas that sacrifice individual freedom at the alter of "equality", "environment", and "social justice"." By definition, freedom, equality, and social justice are basis on which many arguments from the "left" are constructed upon. There are the foundation of leftist views and so there is no logical way that these views can be attributed to the political "right". Especially when it comes to individual freedom. This is what your initial position suggests and the more I read it, the clearer it becomes. Regarding your statement, "I don't believe that freeedoms should depend on social power or status" - this has been my position from the get go. I do not advocate that the rights of those who have power take precedence over those. Rather, I'm arguing the opposite... the EXACT opposite.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 21:01 PM
Some of you talk about freedom but really only mean "freedom for the right people". Those people are no better than the people who run this country.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 20:57 PM
"Communism, as YOU understand it, is not a left wing ideology. Again, check your facts/history. Communism, as YOU understand it was actually more totallitarian (and you're talking about the USSR, right?) Well, that is a right wing ideology. Again, don't use definitions that you are not sure of. You confuse all of us." Overt, Its obvious that you define anything you don't like as right-wing. We have nothing mroe to discuss if you insist on defining words in your own fashion. Communism, by any commonly agreed standard, is left wing. "From each, according to his ability" means someone else decides what I am capoable of and how much I will work. I do not get to choose. "To each accoreding to his needs" means someone else decides what I need and what I get. I am not allowed to change my fortunes by my own effort, but only given what I am deemed to deserve. That is anti-individualist.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 20:55 PM
John. I remain an optimist, but given Dumbya's re-election, I'm a little concerned about the direction the world will be going in. Do you believe that things will improve? I want to, but I am not sure. And this frightens me.. because of reasons I prefer not to mention here... but mostly, for my kids.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 20:54 PM
Overt, I understand your point - I just completely reject it. I don't believe that freeedoms should depend on social power or status.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 19, 2005 20:53 PM
John - his point is that what good is free speech if an idiot is talking. Since I know you are not an idiot - I have to absolutely agree the the net will change the world but only for those who can think. Critical Thinking is a very rare attribute of most men. Know throw in "Common Sense" and maybe 1 in 100,000 has both, while 20,000 males and 10,000 females are psychopaths.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 20:52 PM
"Speech codes are designed to protect the powerless from the powerful.The powerful, on the other hand, do not need such protection." Who is "the powerful"? White people? Men? Who? Who gets to decide that I'm "powerful" enough to not need rights? As you can see I have little use for your position. Free speech means the right to say what you want regardless of who you are or who you are hurting.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 20:47 PM
Correction. My examples - using Switzerland, Holland, Sweden are incorrect. They are more socialist, but still allow for property ownership. There are no true communist political systems, unless you look at tribal life in Africa. However, the argument is not weakend by this.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 20:45 PM
R4D20. Communism, as YOU understand it, is not a left wing ideology. Again, check your facts/history. Communism, as YOU understand it was actually more totallitarian (and you're talking about the USSR, right?) Well, that is a right wing ideology. Again, don't use definitions that you are not sure of. You confuse all of us. Communism, in its true definition, has nothing to do with totalitarianism. A social democracy can be communal in nature (Switzerland, Sweden, Holland, etc). Read Marx before you use this political theory as a rebuttal.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 20:41 PM
John. Noted. This is why I'm proudly, NOT in America. American politics has garnered international interests and its ramifications can be felt globally. In essence, we are all affected by US policies in more ways than we care to admit.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 20:40 PM
"Clearly the right to have someone live in peace and security trumps your right to free speech." No it doesn't.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 20:38 PM
"Left-wing is pro-individual, right-wing is pro-state" This is simply NOT true. communism is one of the most anti-individualist philosophies imaginable but is quite left wing.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 19, 2005 20:27 PM
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 19, 2005 20:19 PM
"Bring 'em on." Dubbya

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 19, 2005 20:06 PM
Some things never change. Might makes Right - "And you can take that to the bank". Barretta

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 20:00 PM
Now, if you'll excuse.. I clearly need to brush up on my typing skills (Read: I apologize for the spelling, syntactical and grammatical errors).

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 19:54 PM
Bwong. "Speech codes are designed to protect the powerless from the powerful.The powerful, on the other hand, do not need such protection." Exactly! And thank you for the clarification. I don't think I always as clear as I think I am.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 19:39 PM
R4D20. "Burning flags hurts the feelings of some Americans, so I guess you support banning it." Again your context is irrelevant. In fact, you litter your arguments with invalid conclusions. How you come to this conclusions is a mystery worthy of its own blog, in my opinion. Banning flag burning does not pose a concern for any american wishing to leave in peace and security. Sure it feels bad, but a flag burner is not going to go out start burning patriotic americans, right? You must come up with more relevant examples. Read my posts again, and then respond.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 19:35 PM
R4D20. In the second example, you are espousing hate towards the elite members of our society, but because you speaking out against their oppression, your act becomes a form of social justice. In case you are unable to understand the subtle differences in my examples, let me be more "Overt". You cannot legislate any limitation because: a) Times change. What is relevant today, may not be relevant tomorrow. b) Each scenario is different as is demonstrated by the two examples I have provided you with.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 19:33 PM
R4D20. "The questions is ... you have to restrict peoples freedoms to do what they want as individuals." There is no hard and fast rule how to do this. And your conclusion is invalid... do you have a right go around spreading hate in this world? That depends on perspective. From your perspective, you have a right to say what you think and feel; however, the victims of your hate have a right to be protected from any harm that may come as a result of your views. Now, whose right takes precedence is the subject of much debate, but in this case, it is more clear. Clearly the right to have someone live in peace and security trumps your right to free speech. To the larger question, should this right be legislated? No. Absolutely not. This is a measure and a decision that is made based on this one situation. I'll present a flipside. If you go to Bush's private-rich only party, where you represent the majority of the working class, and you espouse anti-elitist and anti-corporate views, you will still be causing harm to the rich elite. Same type of situation, different context. Can you grasp the subtlety of these examples?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 19:27 PM
R4D20. "College speech codes. http://www.thefire.org." Alright, you've provided an example, but I'm not sure of its relevance. I assume you're speaking about the Florida "Passion .." article. How is the banning a left-wing policy? Have you read the article? This goes on to my argument - pro-state (right) vs. pro-individual (left). In this case, the state is the University. On face value, your example is invalid and irrelevant. You must provide context and your thoughts for me to accept it.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 19:23 PM
R4D20. "Rightwingers talk about "the state", but leftwingers talk about "class". Both anthropomorphise a collection of individuals into a super-organism and only support individual freedoms as long as they are not seen to hurt the super-organism." Where are you getting this from? You have such a narrow view of political frameworks, society that your confusing many different ideas and maybe even perverting them.. I don't understand what you are trying to establish - can you be more specific? Better yet, can you stay on topic? I'm getting very confused. You have yet to produce an answer to my initial question. Give me an example of a left-wing policy that inhibits freedom.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 19:20 PM
R4D20. Where to begin? "Leftwing = pro-freedom, rightwing = antifreedom? How simplistic can you be? As you move farther along either wing you get into philosophies that are anti-individual and pro-collective. The only difference is what form the collectivist state takes." Again, I do not think you fully understand what you are saying. Left-wing is pro-individual, right-wing is pro-state. But this does not translate into philosophies. For example, you can have a democracy that is anti-individual and right-wing in nature. You need not look further than the US Patriot Act for a prime example.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 19, 2005 08:13 AM
Incidentally, John Kerry would sound like a far right religious lunatic if he were to run for prime minister in Canada. That tells you something about the general political culture of the U.S. I am skeptical about the statement that Americans are more liberal than conservative.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 19, 2005 08:07 AM
"Generally the polls show Americans tend to be liberal on most issues, period. This doesn't mean most Americans are leftist radicals but they do tend to be more liberal than conservative" I have been reading this a lot. Now I think about it it is almost always from the same source, namely, Chomsky. If this is true it is definitely very odd with the kind of election outcomes and the general right wing political atmosphere in the U.S. Next time when they conduct a poll they should also ask how strongly the respondents support progressive causes if indeed they do. I think Americans are more confused than either "liberal" or "conservative".

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 19, 2005 07:06 AM
["We have the right of free speech, but we must acknowledge that exercising our right without consideration for others or a regard for anyone but ourselves, may cause harm against those individuals." Burning flags hurts the feelings of some Americans, so I guess you support banning it...] r4k20 I think there is an implicit calculus of power in the original quote. Overt Enigma can correct me if I misunderstood. The reasoning goes something like this. Speech codes are designed to protect the powerless from the powerful.The powerful, on the other hand, do not need such protection.This is kind of like you're not qualified for social assitance if you have money. Some may see this as an discrimination against those with means but most people would consider this form of "discrimination" acceptible. Your counter examples therefore break down in his framework.He would argue that the wronged parties in your examples are the "powerful groups" and hence should not be protected by any speech code. Also I think "causing harm" is a key word in Enigma's quote which needed to be clarified.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 19, 2005 06:32 AM
"Talent, lying in the understanding, is often inherited; genius, being the action of reason or imagination, rarely or never." - Samuel Taylor Coleridge "Seeing much, suffering much, and studying much, are the three pillars of learning." - Benjamin Disraeli

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 19, 2005 06:23 AM
A lot of "lifestyle leftists" IMO are often just recycled puritans. I think the central question that divides the left and the right is economics.Do you think people should serve "the economy"(a coded word for capital) or should it be the other way around? There are more subtle questions of power such as race and gender,but these issues are intimately bounded up with class and are at least 60% economics.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 19, 2005 06:21 AM
"Are you trying to tell me that speach codes prohibiting speach offensive to minorities are a right-wing idea? " r4d20 Actually speech codes come from both ends of the spectrum. To give an example relevant to this blog, the tendency to intimidate Israeli critics with the label "anti-semite" come exclusively from the "right". I don't agree with any speech code simply because some people and some groups may be offended.The only kind of "hate speech" that should be banned are those that actually incite violence.I know that is not a perfect solution but we have to draw the line somewhere. I also disagree the government acting as the baby sitter of the nation. It is not the job of the government to interfere with individual's life style choices like smoking, drinking , eating junk food, being gay (it may not be a choice, but even if it is, so what?) etc

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 05:24 AM
"We have the right of free speech, but we must acknowledge that exercising our right without consideration for others or a regard for anyone but ourselves, may cause harm against those individuals." Burning flags hurts the feelings of some Americans, so I guess you support banning it. AntiWar demonstrations hurt the feelings of pro-war supporters, so they have got to go. Michael Moore hurt the feelings of the Bush Family, so I guess you supported keeping his movie out of theatres. Criticising the intentions of Government officals hurts their feelings, so I guess I can count on your support for a law banning unfair or malign criticism.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 05:15 AM
"You are of the W.As.P majority and view your rights as to take precedence over others." 1 - judging people by their skin color is racism, regardless of who is being judged. 2- I'm willing to sacrifice a lot to protect the rights of other people. I'm not the one selfishly putting my safety and well being before the freedoms of others. Go ahead, smoke in bars, own guns, do drugs, and what you like. I'll look out for myself and remember that All Men Must Die.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 04:52 AM
" 1. You are of the W.As.P majority and view your rights as to take precedence over others. - or - 2. You do not have a clear understanding of how arguments, ideas, policies are classified as right or left in nature." Anti-Capitalism is Rightwing? MultiCulturism too? I thought they were leftwing, but since I'm an idiot I guess they mustb e rightwing. Thanks for letting me know. I guess I have a lot to think about.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 04:50 AM
"I hesitate in using the word "limited" in my example above, because it is not a limitation. Rather, it is a requirement that we act responsibly with our rights. We have the right of free speech, but we must acknowledge that exercising our right without consideration for others or a regard for anyone but ourselves, may cause harm against those individuals. In which case, we are infringing on their rights to leave in peace and security - so, we must exercise our rights with responsibility." No sh*t dude. The questions is where do you draw the line between acceptable actions and non-acceptable ones? The more you protect peoples feelings and safety the more you have to restrict peoples freedoms to do what they want as individuals. Individual freedom refers to the right for a person to make their own choices - responsbile or not. The more restrict the rights of people to make their OWN choices, the more you FORCE them to be responsbile, the more you cut back individual freedom. This orwellian double-speek, where "Freedom" means only the right to act responsbily and in accordance with the wishes of others, is very odd.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 04:42 AM
"Every working slob in America knows that only the Rich have True freedom." What is True Freedom?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 04:36 AM
"Give me an example of a left-wing policy that sacrifices individual freedom." College speech codes. www.thefire.org.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 04:35 AM
"On the other hand, any policy that favours the individual over the state is a "left-wing" policy. For example, the right to free speech. Period." Are you trying to tell me that speach codes prohibiting speach offensive to minorities are a right-wing idea? Leftwing = pro-freedom, rightwing = antifreedom? How simplistic can you be? As you move farther along either wing you get into philosophies that are anti-individual and pro-collective. The only difference is what form the collectivist state takes. Rightwingers talk about "the state", but leftwingers talk about "class". Both anthropomorphise a collection of individuals into a super-organism and only support individual freedoms as long as they are not seen to hurt the super-organism.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 19, 2005 01:33 AM
American's all want to be rich first. O.J. proves that money is supreme. Color has nothing to do with freedom when your rolling in cash. Every working slob in America knows that only the Rich have True freedom. We are free to be stolen from and lied to by the monied elite. That is truth.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 01:32 AM
I think we've lost track.. this Blog was supposed to be about Israeli Strategic thinking, and we've gotten into a debate on American Fundamentalism.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 01:21 AM
Me. "you can infere that any 'left-wing' policy that seeks to limit individual freedoms (to use your words) cannot be anything by racially motivated. That is the logic behind my position." Let me clarify this. Any idea or policy that YOU believe to be left-wing in nature means that: 1. You are of the W.As.P majority and view your rights as to take precedence over others. - or - 2. You do not have a clear understanding of how arguments, ideas, policies are classified as right or left in nature.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 01:18 AM
I hesitate in using the word "limited" in my example above, because it is not a limitation. Rather, it is a requirement that we act responsibly with our rights. We have the right of free speech, but we must acknowledge that exercising our right without consideration for others or a regard for anyone but ourselves, may cause harm against those individuals. In which case, we are infringing on their rights to leave in peace and security - so, we must exercise our rights with responsibility. Hence, using the context of my example of Muslims in America, given that White - Anglosaxons protestants constitute the majority of the US Population, you can infere that any 'left-wing' policy that seeks to limit individual freedoms (to use your words) cannot be anything by racially motivated. That is the logic behind my position.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 01:14 AM
Of course, once we start talking about rights and freedoms, we have to consider J. S. Mills concern with the implementation of freedoms. For example, if everyone in America is against Muslims, does this mean that we should limit the right of Muslims in America? This is known as the tyranny of the majority. So, in this context, some rights must be 'limited' in order to protect the Muslim minority. Hence, the laws against spreading hate literature. (Social Justice) But these are debates that are held within the leftist paradigm. A politically "right" view would be to say, "Anyone against the state should have their rights limited." This is no distinction or protectio for any individual because, as noted above, the state takes precedence. Now, having said that - can you give me an example of a left-wing idea, or policy that limits individual freedom?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 01:09 AM
R4D20. In case you may not be aware of how the political spectrum works, policies that are typically considered "right-wing" often involve the sacrifice of the individual freedom for the greater good of the state. For example, the right to free speech.. as long as you don't say anything agains the state. Sounds a bit like fascism, doesn't it. But this is considered to be a right-wing view. On the other hand, any policy that favours the individual over the state is a "left-wing" policy. For example, the right to free speech. Period. Given this definition, can you understand the confusion I have with your argument? Forgive me if I have embarrassed you - for a long time, I did not understand the difference between left and right. But it is important that you do if you are going to categorize any policy, idea and so forth as belonging to one paradigm or another.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 01:03 AM
R4D20. Upon further reflection of your comment - are you not an advocate of equality, environment or social justice? All of these values are very closely related to individual freedom, but there is a caveat to this argument. My position and, therefore, my argument assumes that you are not white AND do not support white supremacy. If you're not familiar with boolean operators (the word AND, in this case), I am saying that you must be BOTH white as well as a WHITE SUPREMECIST to believe that equality, social justice and environment are not related to individual freedoms. I must confess, your post has me rather confused. Please clarify for my edification.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 19, 2005 00:59 AM
R4D20. "...but they draw the line at those leftwing ideas that sacrifice individual freedom at the alter of "equality", "environment", and "social justice". All left-wing policies advocate equality, environment and social justice - which begs the question, do you even know what a left-wing policy is? I ask because, in your post, you seem to have contradicted yourself. Give me an example of a left-wing policy that sacrifices individual freedom.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 00:42 AM
"This means a complete repudiation of global state-run neoliberal capitalism, not just corporate power, which is but one of its facets." Got a plan?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 19, 2005 00:35 AM
"The populace of the United States, by and large, holds quite moderate and even liberal views on almost every issue except gay marriage." People in America want freedom - individual freedom. They will support liberal policies insofar as they increase freedom - but they draw the line at those leftwing ideas that sacrifice individual freedom at the alter of "equality", "environment", and "social justice".

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 18, 2005 20:09 PM
Some experts claim that as many as 4% of the worlds population are Psychopaths. History is full of Pshchopaths. Governments are dominated by those without a moral code. The ingnorant masses who choose not to recognize the obvious truth of history and current reality are the reason why Psychopaths rule the world. Hitler was a classic example - but so is Dubbya. John is right on the money - His wisdom shines through. The research on the subject is profound. The distruction done by Psychopaths will continue as they can say and do and believe anything their evil souls can dream up. They are unstoppable.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 18, 2005 08:40 AM
If many on this blogs are "psychopaths" 7 natures got to be the king. And not a very original one at that.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 18, 2005 08:25 AM
The prominance of a technology often creates the conditions for its furter deployment and as a result making itself more indepensible. The net effect is the reshaping of society along its logic thus completing the feed back loop. If you think this is crazy talk just look at cars and computers. The corporations are just strawmen. You cannot address corporate power at a fundamental level without examining the underlying assumptions and logic of the way we organize our society and economy.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 18, 2005 08:23 AM
Once a powerful technology is invented it often turns into the master. For example, while barbarian nomads existed very well without argriculture, an argarian society would collapse with a massive drought because the argarian society is organized along the logic of farming(which is a technology) while the barbarian societies were not. Our society are organized along the logic of capitalism. The capitalist economy is built on private ownership of the means of production, its survival depends on mass consumption and perpetual "growth". The corporations just happen to be very good machines in delivering these things (not just to benefit the evil rich, though with outsourcing and downsizing they begin to work against themselves).

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 18, 2005 08:21 AM
Machanization is powerful and efficient because it involves the mindless grinding of replacible clogs and is singularly focused. The flip side is that whatever side effects are also magnified and reproduced very effciently. The problem is compounded further by the enforced tunnelled vision derived from specialization. The complex machine working on a complicated, rigid algorithm is also very inflexible and cannot adapt to changing enviroment very easily. There you have all the structural features of the evil corporations, which are nothing but very efficient, single purpose machines for maximazing profits.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 18, 2005 08:19 AM
The industrial age began with mechanization and specialization. These powerful techniques of production eventually escaped the shopfloor and became the organization principles of society itself. The corporate form is the application of factory techniques to structure society. It can be found everywhere from governments to schools to hospitals to even non profit organizations. "Corporations" are just a technology, an instrument. Corporations had no "soul" or "mind", hence cannot be "psychopaths" anymore than the bulldozers that flatten Palestinian homes can be "brutal". Machanization is powerful and efficient because it involves the mindless grinding of replacible clogs and is singularly focused.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 18, 2005 08:17 AM
I don't know how "corporations" are relevant to the Palestinian - Israeli conflict. But since this was brought up here are my two cents. With due respect I find John's litanies against corporations borders on mysticism. The "Corporations" are not some alien beings planted by the U.F.O. or agents of the Devil. Corporations are human institutions. Human institutions arise from history and evolve according to their own logic within an ecology.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 18, 2005 05:50 AM
"The problem with the Democrats, many of them who are truly good people, is that they have fallen victim to the idea that they must woo their followers by conceding to Republican issues like pro-life and eliminating the barrier between church and state." The country, like it or not, has moved rightward on some social issues. Realism dictates that the Democrats adapt to this.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 18, 2005 05:44 AM
". My understanding was that I was hearing the old refrain: "people are no damned good." ergo "I will screw anyone who gives me a chance." It's a loser's proposition." I'm not trying to be academic, it's just that your burning straw men here. The argument isn't that everyone will try to screw over everyone else. The argument is that SOME people will, for a variety of reasons, end up being antisocial and willing to screw over people for personal gain. Maybe this seems like an academic point to you, but I think it has to be understood. Behaviors that make perfect sence in an environment where you can trust other people implicitly can be self-defeating in an environment where even a small number of people cannot be trusted - especially if you cannot always tell which is which in advance.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 18, 2005 03:39 AM
"Official Culture in America: A natural State of Psycopathy" http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/official_culture.htm

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 18, 2005 03:27 AM
John H. St.John As I said earlier many who are on this Blog are psychopaths. Do not engage them they are beyond hope or help as we well know.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 18, 2005 03:19 AM
"Mobs are not led by rational people." That is true, John H. St.John, and you are probably good at it. As proof or your irrationality -- you actually blame the Zionists for anti-semitism.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 17, 2005 22:16 PM
The first time I visited his site, which was shortly after 9/11, there was an article posting his theories on the 9/11 and Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld relationship. It was interesting in the sense that it was different from the propoganda crap I was seeing on CNN. I just visited it again - wow, I'm surprised he can get away with publishing so much hate literature.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 17, 2005 22:13 PM
As I was saying (Internet went down) if one substitutes "Jew" for "Arab" then David Duke's racist comments are almost word-for-word the platform Likud platform. I was working on a term paper in which I compared passages from "Mein Kampf" and hertzl's "The Jewish State". There were many, many passages that were almost identical - such as one that proclaims the Jews needing a state of their own because of their exclusiveness from the rest of humanity.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 17, 2005 22:08 PM
If one looks carefully, David Duke's racist conclusions against the Jews are almost identical to the Likud platform and not too different from the racist doctrines of Jabotinsky and many modern Israelis such as Sharansky and Netanyahu.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 17, 2005 21:16 PM
John. Academically speaking, David Duke is an interesting, but failed, player at American politics. I placed a link to his site because I wanted to demonstrate the dangers of having such a reprehensible person speak with a certain element of truth. Some of his premises are factually sound, but his conclusions are hateful and invalid. Still, the lesson to be learned is that even though there is an element of truth in all that we read, the reader must keep in mind that it is not the entire truth that is being read and that the conclusions reached are subjective themselves and open to interpretation.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 17, 2005 19:49 PM
R4D20. " I have personally seen a crowd of over 100 anti-Israel demonstraters chant "Kill The Jews" over and over again." Was this Anti-Israeli demonstration in US' deep south? Klan infested territories, perhaps? www.davidduke.com

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 17, 2005 19:17 PM
FYI Socially Dangerous Psychopath's http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm http://www.psychologynet.org/npd.html http://www.psychologynet.org/npd.html http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Articles/Psychopath.htm http://www.geocities.com/lycium7/compensated_psychopaths.html If you are a good person you will meet many evil people in your life, you need to recognize them and their actions. More importantly you need to recognize which evil behaviors you have been conned into accepting as reasonable and to reject those behaviors - both in yourself and in others - as unacceptable.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 17, 2005 19:00 PM
John H. St.John I read your words with profound admiration and respect. Your many years of living have brought you wisdom and the ability to know truth and love. Few on this site would have had the courage to stand against a Hitler. My father - My uncles - My Brothers and myself have all been in uniform, and know what that sacrifice means and the toll it takes on your life. Thanks Old Man - My uncles are dead - but my 88year old father still fights on. Most on this blog are Psychopaths and are beyond hope. Hitler was a Psychopath. Dubbya is a Psychopath. Most if not all corporate leaders, politicians and those in the media are Psychopaths. There is hope but only when the truth be told. So far all we get is Lies. Below is why we are in trouble. http://www.internetidiot.net/socially-dangerous-psychopathy-links.htm

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 17, 2005 05:41 AM
"Every thing is done for a reason, but self-interest is not usually the reason. People raise families when they could be out partying. Any one of the many volunteers now helping in the catastrophe are getting dirty." You seem to have a rather narrow vision of self-interest. Most people are smart enough to know that partying all the time is not in their long term interest. Self-interest also does not just mean "physical" self-interest. People are emotional creatures too, so we have to include emotionals feedback as also part of self-interest. Some people get a really good feeling from helping others, so maybe they self-interested and are really just chasing that feeling. The term "self-interest" has meanings on many different levels, so what appears to be altruistic on one level can be seen as self-interested on another and, likewise, apparently selfish behavior can be seen as altruistic when view from another angle.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Mseiner1, Colorao at Jan 17, 2005 04:45 AM
Most (i can't know of sure) "misguided" and people who aid others in Asia are certain that they are getting something in return. Some believe its in heaven (why else would that figure have been created: isn't that the greatest incentive know to mankind to be "good") or after death or even tax deductions. I'm not saying individuals don't help: they do. As you know its called "charity"; charity is the worst face of individualism: it stands for non-committment. Take the Paris Club's offer of postponing debt (not pardoning debt)for tsunami strick countries. This foreing policy maneuver is a diplomatic courtsie. Everyone wants to say they help, they just don't want to get dirty.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Mseiner1, Colorao at Jan 17, 2005 00:33 AM
I couldn't agree with you more. Unluckily John, I don't think anything like that will ever happen because as soon as someone has enough power to do such a thing he also has the power to benefit himself. I don't think I've heard about a real life human being that would chose other people over his own interests (I have to hope I would but I cant ne sure). All people's parties have provided unfair benefits to its members. I would just encourage you to let other people know what's right and what's not and to act accordingly without any goals in mind (because I seriously don't think we'll ever get there).

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 16, 2005 19:05 PM
r4d20 "I know that it seems like common sense that a people 50 years removed from their land is different than a people 2000 years removed from their land, but lets think about it anyways." Would you say then that the Cannanites have the right to march to Haifa, kick out the Jews and create and "Islamic State" there? When you answer this, please do not be a hypocrite.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 16, 2005 07:28 AM
"Right now I am afraid that a gullible and uninformed American people are going to stand with the unholy alliance of Wolfawitz Perle,(Zionists)...." The largest source of support for Israel in America is found amongst....Fundamentalist Christians. Those people above, in particular, are supporters of Israel, but I think it's wrong to portray it as some sort of secret cabal pulling the strings. Occams Razor would suggest that GWB isn't a pawn of some Zionist neocon conspiracy - he is simply playing to his base when he support Israel, because his base is Evangelicals and they love ISrael (Watch the 700Club to see REAL pro-Israel bias). Also, and this is not directed at anyone, in general people should try to respect the history behind the "Jewish Plot" scenarios and be a little sensitive to the fact that allegations of Jewish conspiracies have been standard fare for anti-semites for years. I'm not calling anyone this, but maybe it will help you to understand why some people react that way when other people talk about the media bias ("jewish media") or the group of Jewish neocons near the president.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 16, 2005 07:03 AM
"And at what point exactly does nationalism become valid? " Funny, because I thought of a flip-side to that question. For the sake of argument...At what point does nationalism become invalid? At what point does a people kicked out of their land lose their claim to it? I know that it seems like common sense that a people 50 years removed from their land is different than a people 2000 years removed from their land, but lets think about it anyways.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 16, 2005 02:01 AM
A good man would prefer to be defeated than to defeat injustice by evil means. - Sallust

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Shannon, James at Jan 16, 2005 01:53 AM
Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear. - Harry S Truman

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 16, 2005 01:36 AM
Yakov Bok clearly belongs to the Fascist spectrum of Zionism. I notice his extreme right wing views on all issues and not confines to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in particular. It may be of interested to note that most early Zionist leaders including David Ben Gurion considered themselves socialists even though their socialism apparantly only include Jews(with the exception of Jabotinsky and his followers who were the Facist forfathers of Likud)

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 16, 2005 01:23 AM
Yakov Bok should study the his own history more carefully. While religious Zionism has a long history it was more of a cultural than an organised political phenomenon.It belonged in the realm of folklores that sustains a people and a culture. By the 1800's the appeal of religious Zionism was confined to more traditional Eastern European Jews. Secular Jews in Western Europe had little time and patience for it. Political Zionism is a distinctly 19th centry development. It was a nationalistic movement. The political and intellectual leaders of political Zionalism were secular Jews. They were informedby contemporary political ideologies(ranging from socialism to Fascism) rather than the Torah. The Zionist leaders wanted to build a Jewish nation but they didn't much care where it would be. Initially Palestine was only one of several possibilities for the future Jewish state.Other places (such as Kenya) had been considered.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 16, 2005 00:52 AM
Nationalism is a 19th centry Euroepan phenomenon(which is then spread to the rest of the world). The presence or absence of nationalistic awareness is not an excuse for conquest and colonialism. The North American Natives did not have the notion of "Nationalism" in the mordern senese but it does not follow that European settlers had not robbed them of their and inflicted great injustice on them. The Chinese did not develope nationalistic awareness as understood today until the mid 1800's(triggered by European invasion). Technically there was no such thing as "China" or a "Chinese people" before 1910(The Manchurians who had ruled "China" for a couple of centries,--which is a blip in Chinese history,-- by then were considered by the Han to be "foreigners" only a notch better than the Europeans as late as 1900) but that certainly does not mean China was a "land without people". Nationalism is a political fiction. Plaestinians had built their homes and tilled the land in Palestine for centries before the Zionist Jews arrived is a fact

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 16, 2005 00:51 AM
Yakov Bok first claimed that Palestine was empty of people before the Zionist Jews arrived, now he said that the Palestinians were content to be abused by other Arabs without making a fuss until the Jews come along. Clearly there is a contradiction. Make up your mind.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Bok, Yakov at Jan 15, 2005 21:41 PM
For those of you who have a problem with history: The phrase "anti-semitism" developed in the 1880s in the European press and it means specifically, and only "anti-Jewish." The other semitic people are not included in the phrase. Further, Palestinian nationalism and Zionism are not the same thing. First, Palestinian nationalism is a very, very new thing. It developed between 1948 and 1965 with the creation of the PLO. Prior to that time, "Palestinians" were quiet content to be ruled over, and shit on, but their Arab brothers. It was with the modern creation of Israel where Arabs from Jordan, who were ruled by the Heshimites, started vocally saying "we have the right to be autonomous." Zionism encompasses not only the belief that Israel is the homeland of Judiasm, but many other aspects of Judiasm that are far too many to go into. In short, Palestinian nationalism is much more political, where Zionism is much more cultural which I'm sure the "progressives" and Marxists will try to ignore or deny.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Cfraserh, Haps33 at Jan 15, 2005 09:39 AM
Except for thee fact that the Israelis alive today had little to do with the original evets - but then again, blaming all Jews for the actions of a few has always been the halmark of the anti-semite. he Jews..The Jews...The Jews.. There is something sick about the inability of some people to differentiate between Israelis and Jews as a people ----------- Ok, all that was said by the same person - we are not talking about the actions of Jews as a whole, we are talking about the actions of a state. To call someone an anti-semite for opposing the actions of a state, jewish or not, is the same BS that's happening in the US right now; you're "anti-American" if you disagree with an inch of the administration's agenda. If you think we're actually just a bunch of anti-semites, are we really worth talking to? Seriously, wake up; the entire reason there is no peace in the Middle East is because nobody involved seems to be able to look at it objectively. And if one DOES look at it objectively, and finds wrong-doing and points it out, then they're either an anti-semite or anti-arab?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 15, 2005 04:03 AM
Opps, I meant "crazed terrorists snuffed their lives out" (Cont) I remember the attack hapened on a monday. But on the Saturday evening immediately before IDF tanks shelled a refugee camp destroying something like 11 houses and killing several families, all of them in their sleep. I heard that in European broadcast by chance. CBC radio reported it only once or twice in its late night news and the story was gone the next morning. There was no picture of grieving relatives human interest stories that tuck your heart string. Nothing! Was the monday attack motivated by crazed Jihadism or was it an act of revenge? We will never know for sure.But it is not difficult to guess what sort of impression the news coverage conveyed to the viewers.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 15, 2005 04:00 AM
I think we may get a very distorted picture about the violence in the ME if we were to rely only on media reporting. The media often acts as a filter. I remember about a year ago there was a horrendous suicide bombing attack in Israel killing score of people. This was the front page story on the newspaper here on the day it happened. The attack and its aftermath remained prominantly on the news for about 4 or 5 days. There were numerous human interest stories about the victims and their families which conveyed very effectively the point that these were just "folks like us" going about their business and some crazed terrorists snuffed their loves out. How can we not be sympathetic and be enraged by the inhumanity of the Jihadists?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 15, 2005 03:31 AM
Regarding secret tunnels for smuggling arms.I think the Palestinians have a legitimate right to defence like anyone else. The fact that Israel gets regular large shipments of state of the art weapon from the U.S with no one blinking an eye while the Palestinians have to labourously smuggle in small arms through hidden tunnels speaks volume about who has all the cards. Maybe if the Palestinians have the weaponary to engage the IDF "like real men" they don't have to resort to terrorism.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 15, 2005 03:30 AM
I don't know about the specific allegation that Ms. Corrie was protecting secret tunnels. But Israel has been regularly making all sorts of accusations against everyone from reporters to the red cross(usually after the IDF shoot a reporter or blow up an ambulance), so far it has produced no evidence whatsoever. Remember just a few months ago Israel claimed they had pictures showing red cross relief workers smuggling a small missile on an ambulence, it later turned out to be a stretcher. I don't recall Israel apologzing.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 15, 2005 03:22 AM
Rachel Corrie was not protecting any tunnels. This is a blatant falsehoods. She was protecting Palestinian people as a human shield from Israeli violence, and protecting Palestinian land from the Israelis. She died wile protecting a patch of farmland belonging to a Palestinian farmer from an Israeli bulldozer, which ran her over and murdered her.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 15, 2005 03:11 AM
I should have said "largely secular", not "completely secular".

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 15, 2005 03:10 AM
Intellectually I know that the vast majority of protestors are indeed peaceful, but seeing that kind of thing makes me suspicious of the motivations of some of the protest organizers . Then there is the whole debate over Ms. Corrie. She didn't deserve to die at all, but the allegations that she was (possibly unknowingly) protecting tunnels used to smuggle weapons makes it harder to see her as a peace protestor (I don't beleive helping the underdog win counts as promoting "peace"). Then again, it's not like the Israelis don't lie - and we have the recent example of the intentional murder of a 10-year old girl by Israeli Soldiers, so I don't know what to believe. The Allegations of both sides are credible because each side has resorted to dirty tricks and murder before. I'm not a fan of any religious nationalism, and I'll admit that sometimes I forget about the ultra-zionists and think of Israel as a completely secular nation. It seems to me, however, that the ultra-zionists reflect less Israeli public opinion than the ultra-Jihadists reflect Palestinian opinion - but I only know what I see on the news.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 15, 2005 01:37 AM
Correction to previous post : I meant to say "The realiatory acts against Israel (often terrorist acts) are always followed BY demands", not "MY demands". Thanks.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 15, 2005 01:35 AM
r4d20, What you have seen is a displa of pure fascistic anti-semitism. People screaming "Kill the Jews" is a serious matter. I wonder, who were these people? I personally have never seen a sign like this at any Palestinian demonstrations - the signs I have seen said things liks "Stop the Wall", etc. The demonstrations in Palestine are nearly always against occupation, oppression and the killing of their families and friends. The retaliatory acts against Israel (often terrorist acts) are always followed my demands for the end of the occupation, stop of murderous Israeli terrorism against civilians and collective punishment, etc.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Jan 15, 2005 00:49 AM
Take it for what it is: they are nuts. Brains like scrambled eggs. There's a difference between pacifists and people who are "anti" this and that. I tend to be more of a pacifist, and it's just obvious. Why would it be right for one person to have power over another? Or to kill another person? Crazy world...

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 14, 2005 23:48 PM
" I certainly don't want that, and the vast majority of peace activists and pro-Palestinian writers I know don't either." I have personally seen a crowd of over 100 anti-Israel demonstraters chant "Kill The Jews" over and over again. They also physically attacked counter-protesters (a MUCH smaller group) who were simply waving their own signs and chanting too (there was NO provocation). Seriously - I was amazed at how stereotypical it became, with protestors screaming "Auschwitz was too good for you" at Jewish students while other protestors pushed them to the ground and tore their signs up. So, while I agree that some people play the "anti-semitism" card way too easily, what am I supposed to make of this?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 22:42 PM
Bwong. That's a lot of commenting. :)

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 14, 2005 22:34 PM
Enigma, That was my post commenting on r4d20's post that you commented on.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 22:32 PM
Bwong. I did not know this: "It was best known because most of the victims were British(here you see the inequality of death once again). But most of their victims were by far Arabs.Among other atrocities, the Irgun and the Stern gang motar shelled Arab neighbourhoods, carried out bombing and machine gunning in crowed places such as markets,etc." Thank you, I researched the Stern gang briefly after your post and I was surprised at what I found out. "Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively lake part in the war on Germany's side." - Source: http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/irgunazi.htm http://www.rense.com/general18/fromtheIrvRubin.htm

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 22:26 PM
R4D20. "In this framework of relativism and Machevallian thinking you can't really condemn the Palestininans for doing whatever they can to erase the Israeli "facts on the ground", or maybe creating their own "facts on the ground" through whatever means, including suicide bombing." Is Machavellian to speak out against injustice inflicted against any person? Is it Machavellian to respect the right of an occupied people to resist their occupiers by whatever means they have available? I suspect you do not understand the conflict, or the term - "Machavellian" to have used it in this manner. Suicide bombing is not a construct of Islamic fundamentalism, which is what you appear to be alluding to. Like I said before, no change can occur until we view the Palestinian resistance as a desparate cry for help.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 22:22 PM
R4D20. "The past doesn't concern me. What concerns me is that there are millions of Israelis who have known no other home, and I don't think that they deserve to be victimized just because the Palestinians were. A lot of people who talk about Palestinian Justice don't want a settlement or a real peace, they want Israel wiped off the map. I can't support that." Where do you get your information from? I'm talking about Palestinian Justice and I do not want Israel to be wiped off the map. I the majority of the people in the world would agree with me, as well. You need to stop watching CNN and start substantiating your position with actual, verifiable facts. How can the past not concern you? Only by learning it from it, can we find a true and definitive solution. The past also holds the essence of the nature of the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis. You need to do your research if for no other reason than to argue your position successfully.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 22:18 PM
R4D20. "I understand this USED to be true. What I see now is a Palestinian movement infected with virulent religious fanaticism that shows all the signs of giving in to raw hatred over common sence and reason." Really? Because unless you live in a different world, the economic plight of the Palestinian has not improved in the last 5 years. So, by my count, this is still a valid assessment. BTW - please don't hide behind religious fanaticsm. The far right-wing coalitions of Sharon's government are advocating far worse actions against the Palestinians, than what the Palestinians have done so far.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 14, 2005 21:56 PM
"There isn't any good one. If I was alive back then I would have opposed the creation of thestate of Israel. However, being that it is already here and filled with people who know only it as their home, I do not see (as most of you do) justice being served by victimizing them and kicking them out of their homes. " r4d20 So in other words you can basically get away with any injustice if you create enough "facts on the ground"? This is esstentially the motivation behind the ilegal settlements in the occupied territories. In this framework of relativism and Machevallian thinking you can't really condemn the Palestininans for doing whatever they can to erase the Israeli "facts on the ground", or maybe creating their own "facts on the ground" through whatever means, including suicide bombing.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 14, 2005 21:46 PM
" What you and many pro-Israelis fail to grasp is that the suicide bombings are Palestinians that are fighting back with the only means they have" I understand this USED to be true. What I see now is a Palestinian movement infected with virulent religious fanaticism that shows all the signs of giving in to raw hatred over common sence and reason. The past doesn't concern me. What concerns me is that there are millions of Israelis who have known no other home, and I don't think that they deserve to be victimized just because the Palestinians were. A lot of people who talk about Palestinian Justice don't want a settlement or a real peace, they want Israel wiped off the map. I can't support that.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 14, 2005 21:44 PM
Apart from the avowed terrorists such as the Irguns and Stern Gang, the conduct of the IDF was often no different from terrorists themselves. Current PM Sharon began his carreer with the bloody mascre in the town of Quibya(sp?). Sharon's unit summarily executed the town people, most of them women, children and old people. The soldiers then dumped their bodies into their houses and then bulldozed the houses over with the bodies in them. The ruins were then set on fire. Israel told the world Sharon was fighting "insurgents", even though everyone knew that it was a brazen lie. The foreign minister of Israel then(forgot his name) wrote in his diary that he was ashamed of this barbarity and Israel's reputation would be forever ruined. Years later David Ben Gurion later admitted to his biographer that he did lie to the world about Quibya because he had no choice(he bizzarely compared himself to a nun who had to lie to the police in order to save a fugutive)

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 14, 2005 21:43 PM
Actually the bombing of King David hotel was not the worst atrocity of the Irgun. It was best known because most of the victims were British(here you see the inequality of death once again). But most of their victims were by far Arabs.Among other atrocities, the Irgun and the Stern gang motar shelled Arab neighbourhoods, carried out bombing and machine gunning in crowed places such as markets,etc. The Stern Gang(led by former PM Shimir) even offered to help the Nazi to fight the British.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 14, 2005 21:28 PM
"So what is the argument for the founding of Israel and the right of return?" There isn't any good one. If I was alive back then I would have opposed the creation of thestate of Israel. However, being that it is already here and filled with people who know only it as their home, I do not see (as most of you do) justice being served by victimizing them and kicking them out of their homes. I find it amazing that people who talk of "justice" think that a bunch of innocent peopler whould pay because of the crimes of their ancestors. How does killing a 30 year old Israeli make up for the crimes of 50, 100, 150 years ago? How do two wrongs make a right?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 14, 2005 21:23 PM
The terrorist group The Stern Gang was a component of the terrorist Irgun, although a an independently acting entity. And yes, they were every bit as violent and murderous as the Hamas or Islamic Jihad. The Irgun was in a very similar predicament as the Hamas in the timeline of their respecting national movements. To acknowledge one but not the other as perpatrating terrorist acts is hypocritical. Tthe Palestinians as a peoples are the victims of European Jewish aggression, and according to principles of international law and principles of human justice, they are resisting Israeli occupation and trying to expel the invaders. And you're right it isn't right to view the Stern Gang as the "Jewish PLO". The PLO represents the Palestinian struggle against Israeli colonization, where the Jewish terrorist groups such as the Irgun, Haganah and the Stern Gang are the invaders. Start with the facts.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 21:08 PM
Yakov. Regarding your definition, you are incorrect. Anti-Semitic, by definition, is anyone against the Semites. This includes being against Arabs. The context, which is the use of the term, today is associated with anti-judaism. The definition has not been expanded, but limited through contextual use. But I do not wish to get involved in semantic debate with you. I merely wish to point out the limited scope of your argument. Regarding your other points, you are comparing about 1.5 yrs of history vs. almost 60 years of history. Irgun and Stern were radicals in one country, that were not oppressed and still bombed the King David Hotel and killed innocent civilians. The Palestinians have been marginalized, oppressed and have had their rights violated progressively for the last 50+ years.. and only a few "terror" cells have developed? If anything, I think you just made a statement on the character of Palestinians over the Israelis. Thank you - I could not have articulated it better.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 20:57 PM
Bwong. You hit the nail RIGHT on the HEAD. Israelis use "anti-semitism" to silence those that are critical of their actions. This is an extremely effective device because it has made world governments more cautious in their criticism. So, if there is a confusion between Israelis and Jews, it is because the former classifies any critique issued against them as an attack on the latter. That is why I am not afraid to be labelled as anti-semitic. My position is far from being classified as such and I know the true definition of the term.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Bok, Yakov at Jan 14, 2005 20:55 PM
First, Arabs can be anti-semitic. The word, by definition, means anti-Jewish. The other semitic people are not included in the definition. Don't expand the defintion either. Two, the Irgun and the Stern Gang were the same group. There were not two seperate groups. You're trying to make the group seem larger than it was. Third, so the Stern Group existed? So what? Do you truley believe that a few hundred people 50 years ago is analogous to Fatah, the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jhihad, Hezzbolah, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the governments of Syria, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Algeria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, etc.? Fourth, because "progressives" like citing the hypocrisy of Jews because of the Stern Gang, the Stern Gang could be viewed as the Jewish version of the PLO, et al. Therefore, because "progressives" are apologists for Arab terror groups, they should also be apologists for the Stern Group. Thus, "progressives" can only be seen as anti-Semitic when condemening Jewish "freedom fighters" but praising Arab ones.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 14, 2005 20:37 PM
Consider the follwoing scenario. A Chinese person(probably an official) claims that critics of Chinese occupation of Tibet are motivated by "anti-Sinoism"(racism against Chinese).He then makes his point with a litany of complaints such as the racist treatment of Chinese labbourers who build the railroad in Canada, the head tax and Western imperial wars with China in the the mid 19 to mid 20th centry. I think the person would be (quite correctly) dismisse immediately as an shameless apologist of China's policies and that his complaint of racism is irrelevant to the occupation of Tibet. You haven't heard this line of argument in public(even though I have herad it in private among Chinese) because, even the most fanatic would-be Chinese apologists understand how lame and stupid this is. Why should the flinging of "anti-semitism" label be treated with more respect? Now that IS racism against the Chinese(and any group who cannot get away with hysterically stupid defence for atrocities)!

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 14, 2005 20:12 PM
Those who insist that palestinian suicide bombing is the obstacle to a just peace should keep the timeline in mind. Suicide bombing did not become a widespread phenonmenon until around the late 1990's. That was almost 35 years after the 1967 war and more than 50 years after 1948. On the CBC I saw a documentary footage of a bunch of Israeli soldiers holding down a Palestinian youth. Another soldier was smashing the captive's arms and legs with huge rocks. It was during the first intifada(no suicide bombing then). The guy's crime apparantly was just throwing stones. This was not an isolated incident, it just hapened to be caught on tape. I don't know if Americans see that.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 19:21 PM
Israel is, ironically, doing the same thing that Nazi Germany was doing to them. You concentration camps vs. refugee camps. You have inhuman treatment and experiments in one era, and you ahve inhuman treatment and economic sanctions against an impoverish people. There are many more similarities and if I was jewish, I would be absolutely disgusted at what the Israeli government is doing in the name of Judaism. Call me anti-semitic, but what Israel is doing is wrong. It is in violation of human rights, it is morally deplorable, and it needs to be stopped. At any cost.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 19:16 PM
This issue will be resolved when the oppressors and the global community stop looking at Palestinian resistance as terrorism and start looking at it as acts of desparation. There has never been a louder cry for help in the history of humanity. And what do we do? We ignore it. Worse, we blame the victims of illegal acts. I am disgusted with the world's response to this conflict. We need more compassion in the world. We need to care about what our neighbour thinks, and how our lifestyle may be impacting theirs. Common courtesy. Common respect. And yes, each and every single Israeli or Pro-Israeli is responsible for propagating this conflict for these reasons: 1. They elected their representatives knowing what they would do to the Palestinians. 2. They failed to speak out against the atrocities. Anyone who denounces any Palestinian resistance, while supporting Israeli counter military action is embracing the highest form of hypcrisy.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 19:12 PM
ctd ... Let me put this in perspective again: People (Palestinians) are killing themselves to tell the Israelis to stop what their doing. This is not an act of terror, this is an act of desparation. The global community has ignored this in the face of US-Israeli pressure. You know, one fundamental human instinct is that of self preservation. Can you imagine the level of inhumanity required to override this strongest of impulses? Has any Israeli or Pro-Israeli ever asked themselves, "What would compell a human to such self-destruction?"

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 19:09 PM
And the Israeli response to this? 1. "Let's send in our advanced Military weaponry and further wreak havoc upon them." 2. "Let's destroy homes, and claim it belonged to militants." 3. "Let's target their leadership structure and destroy it violently (Target Assassinations - Even better: State Sanctioned Assassination)" 4. "Let's ignore what the world thinks, by dismissing them as Anti-Semitic and keep killing until we take all the land." Take you pick. All of the above are valid.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 19:06 PM
R4D20. "Ieraels [Israel's] policies have arisen, in contrast, in an environment of active attacks and violence directed at them by Palestinians on a level incomparable with anything the ANC did in South Africa." This is a gross misperception of the events that have lead to the current intifada. Israel has always practiced a policy of marginalization against the Palestinians since its inception. How else could they assert their influence in a newly founded state over an existing political structure? This marginalization, plus land usurped during the 1967 War, settler expansion, setting up blockades and barriers for Palestinians to earn a decent living - I mean, how much more oppression can a civilization take before it has to lash out. What you and many pro-Israelis fail to grasp is that the suicide bombings are Palestinians that are fighting back with the only means they have - let me explain this to you in case you don't fully understand the gravity of what they are doing: THEY ARE KILLING THEMSELVES BY FIGHTING FOR THE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS AND DIGNITIES.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 14, 2005 18:30 PM
Just a note on the above (#2) - there were several thousand Ashkenazi Jews in the area after 1880s and much less than that prior to that, and it can be said that a very small (numbering in the hundreds) population of Jews has been in Palestine since the mid 1850s. There was a more substantial community of local Jews living in peace with the Muslims and Christians. These Jews numbered several thousand by 1948. It is worthy to note that these Jews were discriminated by the immigrant European Jews. All in all the toal number of Jews before the 1850s was close to 0% of the population. After mid 19th century it steadily grew to about 5% or so by 1915, and then to 48% in the area designated by the UN for a partition and less than 25% in the are between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 14, 2005 18:24 PM
I think one of the main problems is that many Zionists and their supporters believe some falsehoods and because of this their entire view of the conflict is skewed. 1. The myth of the Arab Commanders' radio messages telling Palestinians to leave during 1948 war. This is simply false. Several journalists, the most famous being Erskine Childers found that there were no such broadcasts. In addition, benny Morris concluded that 90% of the fleeing refugees were expelled by Israeli forces. 2. The myth (via Joan Peters and Alan Dershowitz) of Palestinians being recent immigrants from surrounding countries. This is a false and cruel hoax that has absolutely no basis in reality. Palestinians were living in the area for a millenia and Jews are the ones that are the recent (European) immigrants. There are more, but these two are crucial. The more people realize that they are false, the more the two sides can have an understanding and a springboard for genuine peace.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 17:55 PM
"And you think that the Palestinians wouldn't kill all the Jews in Israel is THEY had the chance? Hell, they kill Palestinians, accused of collaborating, without any trial at all....." There is historical proof that Palestinians would not kill Jews under Palestinian rule; however, the same cannot be said for the reverse - as there is historical proof of Israel's tyranny of its neighbours. That being said, given the level of animosity between the two groups now, nothing is assured. I'll give you this.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 14, 2005 17:53 PM
r4d20. " Except for the fact that the Palestinians NEVER offered or tried to live in peace with the settlers." Fact: Prior to the land reassignment in 1948, Palestinian Jews (because there was no state of Israel at that time) were living in peace with with their Christian and Muslim neighbours. I mentioned this, did you, perchance, miss this?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 14, 2005 15:29 PM
"Better to do something useful with your time, such as participating in relevant activism" In other words, don't bother trying to understand the situation or the historical context. Just go out and do something without knowing why. Turn off your mind and find a charismatic leader to follow, like a good little activist.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Cexxx, (a).gif at Jan 14, 2005 13:59 PM
I find most responses posted on this blog pointless. All these little wannabe Chomsky's, trying despereately to sound as intellectual as they can. If you really cared about any of the issues raised, such as a realistic peace proccess in the middle east, you wouldn't be wasting your time trying to outwit one another. Better to do something useful with your time, such as participating in relevant activism. ZNET has plenty of links if you need a place to start.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 14, 2005 08:50 AM
“nice try, but there is a difference between speaking of the "Palestinians" as a political entity (similar to speaking of the "Israelis" as a political entity) and speaking about the "Jews", which are a worldwide racial and religious group. Criticisin the Palestinians is the same as criticising any other political entity - criticising the "Jews" is criticising an entire ethnic group” The Palestinians are also an ethnic group; to criticize them is to make no distinction. The Palestinians are represented by a number of political affiliations such as the PLO etc. who make their own policies. Accusing all Palestinian of hating Jews is as wrong as accusing all Jewish of hating Palestinians. If you are going to be a stickeler for language and accuse others of hating Jews because they plat loose with words you have to hold yourself to the same standard.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Vekey, Tvekey at Jan 14, 2005 03:41 AM
Equating Israel with nazi Germany is a gross exaggeration and higly inflammatory. Within Israel proper the state is probably the most tolerant in the region. Admitedly, the occupation is an entirely different matter which can lead us to the most unsavory comparisons. I would like to focus on solving the practical issues and avoiding moral issues, not because they are not important,but to achieve peace on the ground. Both sides need to abandon their maximum goals, in order to have a Peace. That is, the establishment of Greater or historical Israel, on one side, or the elimination and wide spread condemnation of Israel on the other. Arab governments have recognized this, in their Beirut declaration by solemnly pledging to recognize Israel if it is withraw beyond the 1967 borders.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 14, 2005 03:32 AM
The conflict between Jewish settlers and the Arab population in Palestine before 1948 was much more nuanced than the "Arab hate Jews" formulation you present here. There was violence perpetrated from both sides.In fact many Jews were saved by their Arab neighbours during anti-Jewish riots. Speaking of racism many Jewish settlers considered themselves Europeans. Like all Europeans at the time they considered the dark skinned Arabs(and all people of colour in general) subhumans. For example, Jewish travelers to Plaestine in the 1800's such as Judas Magnus reported that many Jewish settlers hired Arabs to do menal jobs and they treated their Arab servants worse than animals(whiping was apparantly common)

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 14, 2005 03:32 AM
"Except for the fact that the Palestinians NEVER offered or tried to live in peace with the settlers." Suppose a bunch of Islamic "immigrants come to the U.S. Their purpose is not just to settle down, but to turn the U.S into an Islamic stat where non muslems would become second class citizens and the land of non muslems would be confiscated and given to Muslems. Would you "live in peace" with them? It is dishonest to portrait the conflict between the Palestinians and European Jewish settlers as simply bigotry against Jewish immgrants. ZIONISM IS NOT ABOUT IMMIGRATION AND THE ARABS KNEW THAT EVEN THEN.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 14, 2005 03:25 AM
"Except for thee fact that the Israelis alive today had little to do with the original evets - but then again, blaming all Jews for the actions of a few has always been the halmark of the anti-semite." r4k20 Obviously any Jewish person alive today or alived in the 1800's for that matter has absolutely nothing to do with the expulsion 2000 years ago. So what is the argument for the founding of Israel and the right of return?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 14, 2005 03:14 AM
If Israel is half of the democratic society that it claims to be (even if only for Jews), then holding its citizens reponsible for acknowledgement and remedy of the crimes of their government, past and present will be accepted by many liberal Israelis who are serious about resolving and ending the conflict. This applies to all states, democratic and totalitarian. The governments repond to both with varying degrees. Self-serving trickerty, plain ignorance or support for the atrocities should be dealt with as such.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 14, 2005 02:58 AM
I disagree with Edward said on the point that the Palestinians should recognize the injustice leveled against the Jews via the Holocaust in the context of the current conflict. In the same way I do not think that the Jews have to recognized any crimes perpetrated against the Nazis before the Holocaust, or Tsarist-era Russians before the pogroms. The recognition of the Holocaust (for the horrible crime that it is) should only be done willingly and not forced upon an opressed people. The Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 14, 2005 02:54 AM
Condemning Nazi Germany as a racist and opressive tyranny also did not lead anyone forward. Getting rid of it did. I agree with most of the rest of your post, tvkey - there can be mutual adjustments here and there, but with the FULL AGREEMENT of the Palestinians and on their terms, because they are the victims. The settlers have face justice in the courts for their crimes. They are terorrists,pure and simple. Also comparing them to Hamas or Islamic Jihad is somewhat inaccurate since the latter are fighting for their homeland, where the settlers are he invaders. Both are terrorists, but the Palestinians are resisting - and 'it will not in any way impede on the right to resist racist or colonial regimes", as per the most damning (against terror) and famous 1987 Security Coucil resolution condemning terrorism in all its forms.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Vekey, Tvekey at Jan 14, 2005 02:46 AM
continue my previous comment . Reparations can be negotiated and the International community can also pinch in to help the Palestinians economicaly in the initial phases. Forget about apologies and other exercises of public humiliations. Brokering this Peace is hard enough as it is. Let time promote reconciliation of the Souls and heal the wound gradualy, after the treaties been signed.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Vekey, Tvekey at Jan 14, 2005 02:40 AM
Condemning Israel as an "apartheid and racist state" does not lead us forward. There are enough signs of tolerance within the State of Israel, (allowing the existence of different religions, the tolerable lives of Arabs within its border, etc.) to pre -suppose that in the framework of a regional peace in time it would gradualy relax it further. I agree with you, that Israel need to withraw back to the 1967 borders to create a viable Palestinian State, though some flexibility by form of land exchange is possible, if both sides agree. That is probably the hardest for the Israelis to accomplish, due to the settlers' movement. It is like putting back the Genie into the bottle. Some settlers even threaten with Civil War, which I do not take it at face value, but neverless it is a first order of conflict within the Israeli society. The 'right of return' of the Palestinian refugies have been unofficialy relinquished in the Geneva Accord. Arguably, this was a monumental and historical compromise in behalf of the Palestinians, and I remember how I shook my head in disbelief, when I heard that the Israeli right has arrogantly dismissed it.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 14, 2005 02:27 AM
"To insist that no one is responsible for the current situation because "no one is still alive" who initiated it is like saying no one was responsbile for Apartheid in South Africa in 1987 because "no one was still alive" who founded it. This is nonsense." The difference is the Apartheid was forced on a largely non-resisting people because of the sole reason of skin color. Ieraels policies have arisen, in contrast, in an environment of active attacks and violence directed at them by Palestinians on a level incomparable with anything the ANC did in South Africa.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 14, 2005 02:24 AM
nohope, nice try, but there is a difference between speaking of the "Palestinians" as a political entity (similar to speaking of the "Israelis" as a political entity) and speaking about the "Jews", which are a worldwide racial and religious group. Criticisin the Palestinians is the same as criticising any other political entity - criticising the "Jews" is criticising an entire ethnic group.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 14, 2005 02:21 AM
"Their piece debunks a lot of the lies that have already been written here, i.e. the Arabs started all the wars, the Palestinians are the only terrorists" These are lies that need to be debunked. Israel has NOT been a innocent victim who only wanted peace - there was a strain of violent fundamentalism in Zionism from the beginning. However, it does not follow that Palestinians are innocent victims either. The simple fact is that neither side 1) gave a serious attempt at allowing for a peaceful creation of Israel. 2) has been an honest partner in the peace process 3) has shead itself of the influence of violent fundamentalist who want to exterminate the other side. Critise Israel all you want, but don't act like the Palestinians are any morally better.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 14, 2005 01:41 AM
I think Noam Chomsky wrote about this in the Fateful Triangle, regarding the "right to exist" condition that the Zionsts want as a pre-requisite for peace. This is nothing but an excuse for colonization and militarism, because no one can ever accept such a condition. Fiirst of all it does not exist in the international lexicon, and it is clearly impossible for a disposessed and scattered people to legitimize the right of their opressors for disposessing them. This joins a long parade of trickery designed to avert negotiations for true peace. the PLO recogneized Israel's existence in 1988.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 14, 2005 01:30 AM
I believe that Israel is an apartheid and racist state as a "Jewish State". Iran is also as an "Islamic State", and as the US would be if it were a "Christian State" or a "White State". In my opinion this is a truism and does not allow for exceptions. Going forward I can live with June 1967 borders. Israel has to get out of the West Bank and Gaza completely, relinquishing its economic and military hold as well as total physical withdrawal. It has to offer an apolog and very substantial reparations for its crimes, work out a deal with the Palestinians who were kicked out of their homes through reparations and return to their homes, and only then can peace be possible.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Vekey, Tvekey at Jan 14, 2005 01:12 AM
This debate is deteriorating along the usual lines. Not appreciating the diversity and the diversity of opinions of the Jewish society, both within Israel and outside of it, and seeing them as some kind of homogenous "dark force" is intellectual lazyness or worse. On the other hand, critising the policies of the Israeli Government, its use of excessive force, its unyielding, uncompromising attitude toward the Palestinians is by itself not "anti-semitism", specially not, if the critic is also concerned about the long term surviveability of the Jewish State. Reliance, on solely of miltary force into the indefinite future can not be a serious long term strategy. Eventualy, one is need to make peace, one is need to accomodate the minimum demands of the opposite side. Both sides needs to face down the extremists on their respective camps and restrain them, in order to achieve the wishes of the majority on both side, which is long lasting Peace.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 13, 2005 23:55 PM
r4d20: "No, but they can be Jew-Hating-Bastards." r4d20: "The Jews..The Jews...The Jews.. There is something sick about the inability of some people to differentiate between Israelis and Jews as a people, or between the Priests who killed Jesus and the Jews as a people, or between any other particular group of Jewish people and Jews as a Whole." I'm sorry now I rest my case.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 13, 2005 23:50 PM
r4d20: "Hell, they kill Palestinians, accused of collaborating, without any trial at all....." r4d20: "but then again, blaming all Jews for the actions of a few has always been the halmark of the anti-semite." I rest my case

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 13, 2005 23:32 PM
" However, if they could get away with it, I have no doubt that the Israeli government would not hesitate to eliminate all Palestinians. Its really hard for me to stay neutral in this debate." And you think that the Palestinians wouldn't kill all the Jews in Israel is THEY had the chance? Hell, they kill Palestinians, accused of collaborating, without any trial at all.....

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 13, 2005 23:30 PM
"By the way, Arabic is a semitic language, and by its current definition, no Arab can ever be anti-semitic, and still be proud to us his/her language." No, but they can be Jew-Hating-Bastards.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 13, 2005 23:29 PM
?"For the Jews to ignore the extreme terror of the Irgun and Stern Gang is pure hypocrisy." The Jews..The Jews...The Jews.. There is something sick about the inability of some people to differentiate between Israelis and Jews as a people, or between the Priests who killed Jesus and the Jews as a people, or between any other particular group of Jewish people and Jews as a Whole. If I talked about the "blacks" as a group I'd be called a Racist, but here everyone talks about the "Jews" as a monolithic group and no ones sais anything.......

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 13, 2005 23:26 PM
"When a precedent of this nature is set, can one really blame the Palestinians responding in the manner in which they have?" And that bombing campagin did not start in a vacuum - Palestinains had been cutting the throats of peaceful Jewish farmers for years before those bombings happened. "Now, humour me for a moment, imagine that you're a Palestinian. You've been living in peace with your jewish and christian neighbours, when quite suddenly you are told (and not even by your govering institution) that you must give up your land and sovereignty to your jewish neighbours. Would this not sow animosity between you and your neighbours?" Except for the fact that the Palestinians NEVER offered or tried to live in peace with the settlers. The Palestinians welcomed the Jews as much as the KKK welcomed free blacks - no one likes it when an oppressed minority started demanding respect and their rights - which is exactly what the Zionist settlers did. They did not accept the minor and daily humiliations that the Palestinians were used to subjecting the native Jews to, so they stood up for themselves and got the same response that Black voters got from the KKK.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 13, 2005 23:21 PM
"Many Jews in Israel are pessimistic about the situation because they know that they can never be forgiven for what they have done." Except for thee fact that the Israelis alive today had little to do with the original evets - but then again, blaming all Jews for the actions of a few has always been the halmark of the anti-semite.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 13, 2005 19:39 PM
I don't see Israel expelling Palestinians en masse at this time - mostly because the Arab regimes in the region may fall like decks of cards if this happens - hence Israel proceeding with the more slow method via the wall, economic strangulation and terror. If not for the instability of the other regimes I don't see any reason the US would oppose expulsion or even extermination (via a "civil war", for example) of at least some of the population.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 13, 2005 19:27 PM
RobinHood. You are correct. That Israel is the only current nuclear power, even though they deny it, in the Mid East is very troubling. Especially when you take into account their history. Israel truly does hold all the cards, but they are reluctant to use them because - to an extent, the US can support small Human Rights and Sovereignty violations. If Israel were to deploy its military in full action agaisnt the Palestinians, it would be extremely difficult for the US to support their action. Hence, they would lose their US subsidies (now totalling more than 3 billion US) and force the world to act against Israel. However, if they could get away with it, I have no doubt that the Israeli government would not hesitate to eliminate all Palestinians. Its really hard for me to stay neutral in this debate.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 13, 2005 19:21 PM
RobinHood. Actually, there are examples of National movements that did not employ terror. The most famous of which is Ghandi's non-violent movement to liberate India from British Imperial rule.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 13, 2005 19:19 PM
Oh, and here's the real kicker. The current Israeli PM was found to be responsible for the slaughter of over 2300 refugess in camps Sabra and Chatila: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1395080.stm And this is the monster that is going to usher in Peace for the Palestinians? You'll pardon me for not being first in line for thesupport Israel campaign. By the way, Arabic is a semitic language, and by its current definition, no Arab can ever be anti-semitic, and still be proud to us his/her language.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 13, 2005 19:18 PM
The fact that Israel has a nuclear arsenal tremendously complicates things - Israel will instantly become a US-branded "rogue state" if its status as a US client is ever rescinded. Given the fanaticism of the Zionist enterprise this oculd turn into an extremely dangerous situation. If this ever happens God help us.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 13, 2005 19:10 PM
Add to this, the aggressive - almost imperial - move made by the IDF (the irony lies in the name) in confiscating land that was agreed to be given to Syria, Jordan and Egypt in 1967; Combine this with a clearly biased superpower vetoing every UN resolution that calls for restraint on Israeli action, and you can see why Israel's policy is not supported and why the US has a terrorist problem to begin with. It is their own doing. Here are some interesting facts for you - A list of UN Resolutions against Israel for Human rights violations, sovereignty violations, you name it. http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.htm http://www.un.org Almost all of them have been vetoed by, well, we all know. And those that have not been vetoed, have Israel has not complied with.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 13, 2005 19:03 PM
I can not think of any national movements that have not employed terror to some degree - this is not to condone terrorism, but to point out that the use of it points to the movement's lack of any other avenue to achieve self-determination. For the Jews to ignore the extreme terror of the Irgun and Stern Gang is pure hypocrisy.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 13, 2005 18:58 PM
Israeli supporters must remember that the bombing of the King David hotel and threats indicating additional strikes against British and Palestinian targets in 1946 is what prompted the UK to go to the UN and draft a resolution that gave Jews Israel. This is a historical fact. Now, humour me for a moment, imagine that you're a Palestinian. You've been living in peace with your jewish and christian neighbours, when quite suddenly you are told (and not even by your govering institution) that you must give up your land and sovereignty to your jewish neighbours. Would this not sow animosity between you and your neighbours?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 13, 2005 18:53 PM
Please keep in mind that the following is submitted for discussion only. For those Pro-Israeli/"Anti-terror" supporters, you should take note that the founding of Israel was encouraged largely by the Jewish Extremist bombing a civilian targe in 1946: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4667.htm When a precedent of this nature is set, can one really blame the Palestinians responding in the manner in which they have?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 13, 2005 18:36 PM
The Zionist attempts to use the Bible as a historical justification for their policies is absurd and only exposes their total lack of real evidence to support their plans.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 13, 2005 18:32 PM
There is so much propaganda (much of it emataing from the Zionist camp) that the basic issues have been obfuscated. Some recent hoaxed such as Joan Peters "From Time Immemorial" and Alan Dershowitz's "Case for Israel" have contributed to these myths circulating.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 13, 2005 18:30 PM
The first step lies with Israel (and the US) which has all the power to apologize (similar to Willy Brandt of germany after WWII), return the stolen land to the native population and justly compensate the victims. Then and only then can any noises about "peace" made by Israel be taken seriously. Many Jews in Israel are pessimistic about the situation because they know that they can never be forgiven for what they have done.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 13, 2005 18:13 PM
First of all let me reinerate the brief history of the conflict - which is not all that complicated if one bothers to find the facts. Palestine has been settled by Palestinians for at least 1000 years, and Jewish claims to the area based on the fact that they have been one of the numerous peoples living in the area are no more valid that any other group. Remember, it was Jews who themselves have invaded Palestine in 1200BC, displacing the indeginous population. There has been much propaganda from the Jewish side reagarding the supplsed orders from Arab commanders telling the natives to flee, which never happened. Then there are fraudulent claims that most of the Palestinians are recent immigrants, and then are the false claims that attempt to legitimize the illegal and immoral Jewish occupation of the area.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 13, 2005 17:28 PM
“That explains why Chomsky, et al, always prefer the Palestineans over Israel. They always take the side of the losers.” Am I to infer from this, that all things being equal, you always take the side of the winner?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 13, 2005 17:23 PM
"Why hate Israel just because the people are modern and educated? It is for exactly the reason that they hate the US." Keep telling your self that.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 13, 2005 15:25 PM
"Israel holds all the cards. It has one of the most up-to-date and well-supplied militaries in the world." That explains why Chomsky, et al, always prefer the Palestineans over Israel. They always take the side of the losers. Why hate Israel just because the people are modern and educated? It is for exactly the reason that they hate the US.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Vekey, Tvekey at Jan 13, 2005 03:37 AM
Of course Israel has the overwhelming military advantage which it is uses daily and ruthlessly. The counter violence against the Palestinians are disproportionate and largely random. However, we should not forget that the majority of Israelis and the Diaspora are peaceloving and willing to exchange Land for Peace. Unfortunately, the Israely right wing and the settlers' movement has hijacked the agenda. An old Jewish friend, who is also happens to be a holocaust survivor told me after much debating the issue bettween each other. "I know what would establish the Peace there, but I would be killed within days." He did not elaborate farther, but I think both of us was thinking of Prime Minister Rabin. Be blessed his memory and those in the future who will try to break this stubborn gridlock.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 13, 2005 00:07 AM
If Israel held "all the cards" this problem would be over and the Palestinians wouldn't be an issue.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 12, 2005 23:56 PM
"Israel holds all the cards....The suicide-bomber is a desperate, terrible resort; whereas Israeli army posts can comfortably shell or shoot up Palestinian school-children almost with impunity..." These points are, insofar as they are right, trivial and shallow, and, insofar as they are not trivial and shallow, dead wrong.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Provocateur, Agent at Jan 12, 2005 20:53 PM
I hate to be so dsmissive about the Israeli-Palestinian issue but my view is (has been for a while now) that the country of Israel is pretty damn dry and ugly--- from pictures that I've seen---to merit such strong contention between the two dueling parties. I could understand a country green with vegetation like Ireland or the U.K. would elicit very stong controversy. But Israel? Reminds me of the quote in Hamlet of soldiers going to their graves like beds for an eggshell of a land. Still, I'm a leftist and I want to see peace in Israel.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 12, 2005 20:14 PM
For the record, I do not pretend to know the answer to the Israeli - Palestinian conflict. What I do know, with a reasonable degree of asurity, is that all of the ideas and proposals put forth are not in the best interests of either peoples. There is a clear need for a more objective nation to take the lead if peace is truly to be ushered in during our lives. Perhaps Canada would be a willing player? Backed by the UN (without any veto power) of course. Just a thought.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 12, 2005 20:10 PM
For any one state, whether they are directly or indirectly involved, to remain silent while "civillian genocide" is occurring is not only uncautionable, but disgusting. Chomsky identifies one such active albeit, indirect, player's position on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict as very disturbing. I agree and I do not think it is an attack on Israel or on the US; it is, rather, a comment on each government's position towards the wall and the conflict in large. What is really ironic, is that the more the major powers ignore the issue, the worse it will get.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 12, 2005 20:06 PM
This is, perhaps, the most controversial and polarizing topic in contemporary political discourse. It is easy for anyone to defend the actions of both sides of those involved: Terrorism/Freedom Fighters vs. State-sponsered Terrorism/Pre-emptive defense. This is not the point. I find myself most amicable to Tayssir John's position in that right is right, and it should not be coloured with political labels. It is an absolute measure, but also a subjective perspective based on individual values. What we can agree, as was stated by Nohope, is that the taking of lives - either through suicide attacks or Military mechanisms - upon a group of people that are unable to defend themselves (civilian population) is wrong. Once you embrace this universal truth, the justifications for both sides adopting the 'big stick' approach becomes questionable at best, and quite trivial.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 12, 2005 06:29 AM
Responding to the essay, Israel cannot survive a mass influx of Palestinians. The nation will die as a political entity, if not through civil war - it would be a "politicide" if you will. Looking at this objectively, we also have to acknowledge none of the people around are responsbile for the initial problem - and guilt is not inherited. So, regardless of which state is destoryed, all of the people affected will be innocent. Where is the moral obligation to support the destruction and victimization of one group of innocents over another.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 12, 2005 06:17 AM
"If Palestinians are to be repatriated it must be in such a manner to not forcefully displace any persons currently residing there......Same for Jews..." I totally agree. Everyone on both sides points fingers at past events to blame the other side - but the people getting suicide bombed and shot by helicopters aren't the ones responsible for those past atrocities. Almost all of them, Jews, Chrisitians, and Muslims, were born after the start of the conflict and have known nothing but conflict. None of these people can be blamed for the actions of 1949 - and only a few for those of 1968. Those "they started it" arguments hold very little water. In addition, pretty much all of the violence can be justified if you assume that the other side has no desire for peace - why negotiate with people who aren't honestly looking for peace. Since NEITHER side has really been an honest participant in the peace process, it only makes sence that both sides views each other with mistrust.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By K, Mr at Jan 12, 2005 05:44 AM
In Canada reserve systems were used to uproot aboriginal populations. I'm sure the Jew issue cannot be easily used in today's society as the Canadian imperialists did early in the 18th century. What needs to be addressed is the chaotic nature of the demographics and the historical significance of the region to multi-cultural integration infolding the 'model' of the new world order. subjecting the people of palestine to the autrocities of subjugation has devastated this culture to the point of suicide bombing as the only means of protest. enoughs enough when are the united nations going to intervene or at least the EU respond to the continued human rights violations that are conducted daily against all subjugated peoples worldwide? Pick a disenfranchized ethnic group that desires autonomy. how come some ethnic groups get land while other ethnic groups get to be 'occupied' what we need on this planet is a comphrehensive plan. What's going on is a gong show and this middle east is a good example of total dysfunction in the political process. Our leaders are unskilled in the negotiational processes which a multi-cultural planet demands.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Allen, Robert at Jan 12, 2005 05:27 AM
"One has to question Chomsky's criticism of Israel. It it because of some perverted "progessive sense of justice?" Or is because he failed at building a utopian society and had to leave a kibbutz in the 1950s? His job was to do hard farm labor. He wanted to teach. He didn't want to make the necessary sacrifices in order to build the perfect cooperative society. What is the true nature of his motivation?" Mr. Bok, Do you know what a genetic fallacy is? The question is not what motivates the good Prof., but whether or not his analysis is sound. Why don't we stick to the issue and not get into personalities?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Bok, Yakov at Jan 12, 2005 03:51 AM
Zionism is NOT a 19th Century European movement. Zionism, the belief that Israel is the Jewish homeland, is as old as Judiasm itself. You are showing your ignorance of the situation. Further, a Jewish homeland cannot be made from Germany becauce Germany is not the Jewish homeland. The "problem" between Jews and Arabs has existed long before WWII. Again, to say otherwise is to so ignorance. Finally, there was a China long before 1910. Where do you get your revisionist history from? As one post notes, the motivations of authors is important. So again, are Chomsky's anti-Israeli motivations fueled by his failure on the kibbutz?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 12, 2005 01:54 AM
"Jews were living there for generations also." realpc There were a small number of Jews(mostly utraorthodox) who coexisted peacefully with the Arab population. But it is dishonest of you to pretend that they have anything to do with mordern Zionism, which is a 19th centry European movement. Also, it is quite a leap to go from Jewish immigration to turning the whole darn place into a Jewish state(and thereby denying the national right of the indigenous).There are Muslem immigrants in the U.S but it is quite a different thing to turn the U.S into an Islamic state if you don't get it.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 12, 2005 01:28 AM
I should also say that I believe Israelites fears of a strong Palestinian state are justified for the same reasons. With out a doubt Palestinians have been socialized into a culture of state supported culture based repression and would probably use the tactics they are now experiencing and are learning on the Jews themselves given an opportunity. The Israeli Palestinian conflict has to be stopped and a few generations must learn to live with out state repression and terrorism if the peoples of that region are to experience anything short of mutual annihilation.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 12, 2005 01:27 AM
I think the point is that those who live in a place in peace have a greater moral right to be there than those who would take that right away by force. If Palestinians are to be repatriated it must be in such a manner to not forcefully displace any persons currently residing there. If Jews are to settle in the middle east, they too have a moral responsibility to not displace those who live their now, whether Jew or Palestinian or other. It's not the fact of Israel which disturbs me, it the policy of state violence against a stateless people. Chomsky points out in “What Uncle Sam really Wants” that the best way to train a victimizer is through victimization. Form this logic the Israeli Palestinian conflict is a direct result of the Holocaust, not only in creating a rational for the necessity of Israel, which I believe was and is necessary, but also for the nature of the means which eerily mirror German tactics used in displacing, and repressing Jews but have so far and thankfully shied from a “final solution” of the Palestinian question

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 12, 2005 00:58 AM
"People(whatever they called themselves) have been living on that land for generations when the European Jews arrived." Jews were living there for generations also.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 11, 2005 23:33 PM
"Further, Israel is THE JEWISH state. It has a unique place in history because of the history of people trying to erradicate Jews." How does that give you the liscence to displace another people. Why not carve out a part from Germany to build your Jewish state? That would make more sense because it was the Christians who persecute the Jews.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 11, 2005 23:30 PM
"The area has been conquered many times. There was never a Palestinian nation. "realpc "Nation" is a geo political concept. People(whatever they called themselves) have been living on that land for generations when the European Jews arrived. There was no "China" and hence technically no Chinese people before 1910(People used to identify themselves with their tribes, e.g Han). But it doesn't mean China was "a land without people" before 1910.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 21:18 PM
Israel is wrong in thinking it has rights specified in the bible. The bible is not a political authority. On the other had, Israel does have a right to survive, equal to that of the Palestineans.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 21:17 PM
Israel has done wrong, as has every nation that ever existed. But Arabs have been trying to drive Jews out of Palestine for hundreds of years. It's impossible to say who was there first.

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By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 21:14 PM
"Are the Palestinians that live in the occupied territories descendants of Arabs living in Palestine from ages and ages ago" The area has been conquered many times. There was never a Palestinian nation.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Bok, Yakov at Jan 11, 2005 20:23 PM
The answer to Agent Provector is both. The Palestinian people are historically from what is modern Jordan. There was a huge demographic shift in the early 20th century when early Zionists began building infrastructure and the economy of what is now Israel. The Arab tribes of Jordan and Syria that are now known as Palestinians moved into Israel because of the economic opportunity that presented itself with the new arrivals. It is common knowledge that prior to 1948, the creation of Israel, there were less than 800,000 people, Muslims, Christians, and Jews, living in what is now Israel. In 1948, the Arab Armies told the Arabs of Israel to leave so they could freely kill Jews. That's how the Arabs came to "the territories." (I'm sure there will be criticism of this.) Those who stayed are now Israeli citizens. Then, in 1968, the Arabs again started a war which they lost. That's how Israel gained control of the territories. What often isn't told is that in 1948 3 million Jews were kicked out of the Arab countries and forced to Israel.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Jan 11, 2005 20:22 PM
Chomsky hates Israel, as does the rest of the American left. Why? Probably because it is successful and modern, rather than backwards and poor. Only nations that despise the US have Chomsky's sympathy.

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Bok, Yakov at Jan 11, 2005 20:14 PM
Why should Israel give Palestine anything? Israel has supported the Palestinians since the Arab world abandoned them in 1968. It's easy to forget that until Arafat began the destruction of his people four years ago that the standard of living had gone up for Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza while under Israeli "occupation." Israel has done more for everyday Palestinians than the Arabs ever did. Further, Israel is THE JEWISH state. It has a unique place in history because of the history of people trying to erradicate Jews. Any talk of increasing the non-Jewish population is talk of destroying Israel and is fundementally anti-Jewish. Nobody criticizes the Arab world for being Islamic states. One has to question Chomsky's criticism of Israel. It it because of some perverted "progessive sense of justice?" Or is because he failed at building a utopian society and had to leave a kibbutz in the 1950s? His job was to do hard farm labor. He wanted to teach. He didn't want to make the necessary sacrifices in order to build the perfect cooperative society. What is the true nature of his motivation?

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Re: Israel's Strategic Thinking

By Provocateur, Agent at Jan 11, 2005 20:11 PM
I am very ignorant when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian question. I have a question that I hope someone will answer. Are the Palestinians that live in the occupied territories descendants of Arabs living in Palestine from ages and ages ago or are they Arabs from other Mid-east countries?

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