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David Peterson's Blog

Web Address: http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/davidpeterson
Bio: I am an independent writer and researcher based in Chicago. (More)

All Peterson Blogs

Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By David Peterson at Apr 05, 2005


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Have been wondering how best to express the actual place of the Church in the Modern World---a phrase by which one means the Catholic Church, of course, but also its celebrated proclamations of some three and four decades ago, and, most important, the fact that a hell of a lot more people live outside of Western Europe and the United States than live inside them. After all, the topic has not been without a certain degree of interest lately. At least judging by the sheer volume of coverage the English-language media have been allocating to this single topic. And the mindless, hagiographic character of upwards of 99 percent of it. Then I remembered that back in the early 1990s, a wonderful piece of public art used to grace the wall of a building on Chicago's near-southwest side, in what I believe to be the Pilsen neighborhood (the borders of these city "neighborhoods" are not perfectly defined), a little to the north of Cermak Road, and a little to the east of Damen Avenue. Can't recall offhand whether the building itself was secular or religious---I only used to see the mural from the far side of a public park, as I drove north or south along Damen Avenue. But in this largely Hispanic neighborhood, the mural I have in mind portrayed the image of Jesus Christ as a gang member. One could tell this, incidentally, because the figure of Jesus in the mural was using his hands to flash the symbol for membership in a particular gang. Nothing disrespectful, to be sure. But there it was. As plain as day. Or, rather, it used to be there. But not any longer. Sadly, the mural has long since been destroyed---painted over with some other image. And by now, by god-only-knows how many other images, leading up to the present state of the mural and the west-facing wall of the building on which it once stood. Maybe an image of Karol Wojtyla. Maybe an advertisement. Maybe an image of the Mayor of Chicago. Maybe whitewash. Either way, pretty much the same thing. In one of my favorite commentaries last year, published in The Guardian just in time for Christmas, a British fellow named Giles Fraser reminded us that as "Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire with the conversion of the emperor Constantine in 312," and the subsequent imposition of the Nicene Creed under the emperor's sponsorship in 325, the "church began to backpedal on the more radical demands of the adult Christ," giving the world a "Christianity without the politics," ultimately. A domesticated Christianity far more closely aligned with the politics of the worldly emperors, than with the politics of anybody who'd rise up against them. I mean, can you imagine what it meant not only for the Roman Emperors to embrace Christianity. But for the Christians of the early 4th Century to have the Empire's version of their religion shoved down their throats! I also remember circulating copies of Fraser's December 24 commentary among friends, along with links to some of the major documents of the Catholic Church from the post-war period when this historical alignment between the Catholic Church and the worldly emperors began to re-align, if only partly. Not insignificantly, these included what few documents I could find that came "from the underside of history," as Gustavo Gutierrez's exquisite phrase puts it. From the Liberation Theology of the same period, in other words---the “one attempt by the Church in the post-Constantine era to pay some attention to the story between the virgin birth and the crucifixion,” a friend of mine wrote back to me at the time, and “therefore destroyed with extreme violence and slaughter.” A very real and very worldly culture of death that reaches far beyond anything the fetid imaginations of Rome's counter-revolutionary theologians ever could dream up. This demolition proceeds apace, I fear. The Church in the modern world. Postscript (April 8). I hope that all of you are as heartened as I am to be reminded that the recently-departed John Paul II was not only an "ardent foe of unjust and unwise wars," but that "his opposition to the war in Iraq - and to all forms of preemptive war - is at the very heart of the legacy he has left with regard to international relations." ("The Anti-War Pope," John Nichols, posted April 7, 2005.) And that we can rely upon no less a bastion of the American Left than The Nation to instruct us about this. (As seconded by one of the newer bastions of the American Left, Truthout. And god-only-knows how many other progressive AlterNet- and CommonDreams-like electronic services to come.) I can still recall this very same Nation not-too-long ago devoting some pages to the German philosopher, Jurgen Habermas, who, during the run-up to the Americans' "unjust and unwise" war over Iraq, instructed The Nation's readers that, Yes, the 1990 "Iraqi invasion of Kuwait was a violation of international law," calling for a military response. And that, Yes, when "[c]onfronted with crimes against humanity, the international community must be able to act even with military force, if all other options are exhausted." ("Letter to America," December 16, 2002.) But then when it came time to apply these cosmopolitan and indeed universal principles to the unjust and indeed criminal American aggression over Iraq, some three months later---fell silent. Curiously enough.
Papal Documents (Homepage), The Holy See, Rome Papal Encyclicals Online (Master List) Documents of the Roman Catholic Church (Homepage) The Catholic Library Online (Homepage) The Catholic Encyclopedia Online (Homepage) Rerum Novarum, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on Capital and Labor, May 15, 1891 Mater et Magistra, Encyclical of Pope John XXXIII on Christianity and Social Progress, May 15, 1961 Pacem in Terris, Encyclical of Pope John XXIII on Establishing Universal Peace in Truth, Justice, Charity, and Liberty, April 11, 1963 Ecclesiam Suam, Encyclical of Pope Paul VI of the Church, August 6, 1964 Lumen Gentium, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Solemnly Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964 Gaudium et Spes, Pastoral Constitution of the Church in the Modern World Promulgated by His Holiness, Pope Paul VI on December 7, 1965 Populorum Progressio, Encyclical of Pope Paul VI on the Development of Peoples, March 26, 1967 Evangelii Nuntiandi, Apostolic Exhortation of His Holiness Pope Paul VI, December, 1975 Instruction on Certain Aspects of the "Theology of Liberation", Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, August 6, 1984 Instruction on Christian Freedom and Liberation, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, March 22, 1986 Sollicitudo rei socialis, Encyclical To the Bishops, Priests Religious Families, sons and daughters of the Church and all people of good will for the twentieth anniversary of "Populorum Progressio," December 30, 1987 "Dominus Iesus": On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, August 6, 2000
America Commonweal First Things National Catholic Reporter
"Empires Prefer a Baby and the Cross to the Adult Jesus," Giles Fraser, The Guardian, December 24, 2004 "Crisis in the Catholic Church: The Pope's Contradictions," Hans Küng, Der Spiegel, March 26, 2005 "It's Too Late Now for John Paul II to Repent," Michael Dickinson, CounterPunch, April 4, 2005 "Media Objectivity Embalmed with Pope," Sam Smith, Undernews, April 4, 2005 "The Pope Who Revived the Office of the Inquisition," Jim Connolly, CounterPunch, April 5, 2005 "The Price of Infallibility," Thomas Cahill, New York Times, April 5, 2005 "Pope John Paul II, a reactionary in shepherd's clothing," Barry Healy, Green Left Weekly, April 6, 2005 "A Profoundly Right-Wing Pope," Vicente Navarro, CounterPunch, April 8, 2005 "Not in My Name," Polly Toynbee, The Guardian, April 8, 2005 "Part of the Flock Felt Abandoned by the Pope," Chris Kraul and Henry Chu, Los Angeles Times, April 10, 2005 "Pope of Fear and Centralized Power?" Leonardo Boff, CounterPunch, April 25, 2005 "Triumph of the Theo-Cons," Vicente Navarro, CounterPunch, May 2, 2005 "A Place for Dissent: My argument with Joseph Ratzinger," Charles E. Curran, Commonweal, May 6, 2005 "Editor of Jesuits' America magazine forced to resign under Vatican pressure," Tom Roberts and John L. Allen, Jr., National Catholic Reporter, May 6, 2005 "Editor of Jesuit Magazine Resigns Under Pressure," Larry B. Stammer, Los Angeles Times, May 7, 2005 "Vatican Is Said to Force Jesuit Off Magazine," Laurie Goodstein, New York Times, May 7, 2005 "Editor of Jesuit Weekly Is Ousted," Mary Voboril, Newsday, May 7, 2005 "Jesuit Magazine Editor Quits Amid Conflict," Alan Cooperman, Washington Post, May 7, 2005 "U.S. Catholic editor resigns after clash with Pope," Philip Sherwell, Sunday Telegraph, May 8, 2005
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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Peterson, David at May 30, 2005 07:35 AM

Friends: The online version of an article in today's Chicago Sun-Times about the Mary of the Underpass ("Apparitions of Mary leave lasting impression," Lisa Donovan, May 29) also provides a partial catalogue of some of the "reported religious apparitions in the Chicago area" over the past 25 years---those "statues, paintings and icons that appear to weep or move, and images, shapes or shadows that appear on walls, windows and---most recently---the underpass wall of the Kennedy Expressway, at Fullerton."
* 2001: A scar on a tree trunk at Rogers Park was thought to be an image of Mary. The tree is gone, neighbors say, but the shrine still sits at Honore and Rogers where fresh flowers and lighted candles are evidence of its perpetual adoration. * 1999: In Joliet, a shadowy outline of Mary is seen in the second-story window of a house at 611 Abe St. * 1994: In Cicero, drops of moisture that look like tears stream down the cheeks of an icon of Mary at St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church, 1220 S. 60th Ct. The icon becomes famous as Our Lady of Cicero. * 1991: At Queen of Heaven Cemetery, 1400 S. Wolf Rd. in Hillside, a retired railroad worker says he saw a large fiberglass crucifix bleed in the veterans section. So many people come to see the crucifix, some of them trampling over or driving on graves, that the cemetery has to move the crucifix and create a special parking lot for it. Today, the crowds are gone, but the icon still draws the faithful, a spokeswoman said. * 1986: At Nicholas Albanian Orthodox Churchm 2701 N. Narragansett on Chicago's Northwest Side, a painting of Mary begins to weep on the saint's name day. The church opens its doors for veneration of the icon on Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sundays, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. * June 1984: At St. John of God Catholic Church on the Southwest Side, a wooden statue of the Virgin Mary appears to shed tears. The Archdiocese of Chicago investigates the phenomenon for more than a year before announcing it could not positively rule out natural causes for the liquid oozing from the wood.
Quite some list of epiphanies, no doubt about it. And this is the same American general public whose state drives all nuclear weapons questions for the entire world, refuses to consider dismantling its pre-eminent nuclear weapons program, despite its Article VI requirements under the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, and still prepares (perhaps---though it certainly like to make threats along these lines) to sponsor or itself to launch military attacks on any number of Iranian nuclear facilities, on the grounds that the Allah-fearing Iranians are simply too crazy and too dangerous to be permitted to possess a nuclear program, regardless of its purpose?
"America's broken nuclear promises endanger us all," Robin Cook, The Guardian, May 27, 2005

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Peterson, David at Apr 23, 2005 05:53 AM

As some of you may have heard, a combination of chemical efflorescence, erosion, and water stains on a section of the concrete of the major expressway that pretty much bisects Chicago along a north-south axis has recently been embraced by a number of the iconographically-regressed faithful as an incarnation of no less than Mary, the Mother of Jesus. (For a bunch of photos of this weird and depressing and very scary scene.) I confess to not having checked it out in person. But in an Associated Press photo, we see the shrine that the faithful have improvised there. And I am reminded of an ominous passage from Dominus Iesus (pars. 21-22):
it is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God. ............ With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity. This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”. If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation. ............ Those who obey the promptings of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary”. Inter-religious dialogue, therefore, as part of her evangelizing mission, is just one of the actions of the Church in her mission ad gentes. Equality, which is a presupposition of inter-religious dialogue, refers to the equal personal dignity of the parties in dialogue, not to doctrinal content, nor even less to the position of Jesus Christ — who is God himself made man — in relation to the founders of the other religions. Indeed, the Church, guided by charity and respect for freedom, must be primarily committed to proclaiming to all people the truth definitively revealed by the Lord, and to announcing the necessity of conversion to Jesus Christ and of adherence to the Church through Baptism and the other sacraments, in order to participate fully in communion with God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thus, the certainty of the universal salvific will of God does not diminish, but rather increases the duty and urgency of the proclamation of salvation and of conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Peterson, David at Apr 22, 2005 21:29 PM

Friends: For a passage from one of the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's later works that I am confident will go over big among the non-Catholic peoples around the rest of this heretical planet, now that one and the same man co-substantiates as the new Pope Benedict XVI, see:
"Dominus Iesus": On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, August 6, 2000
By the way, do you suppose there is any truth to the rumor that the Vatican has asked to accede to NATO during NATO's next round of expansion, the exact date of which is still in the offing?

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Apr 21, 2005 23:08 PM

David, I quite understand the pegan origin of Catholic Church. But this is a cririque OUTSIDE of Catholicism. Note also I distinguished Catholicism from "Christianity"(which has various interpretations according to demininations and sects, the RCC is only one of many sects) However, I think people are barking up the wrong tree by complaining the Church is not progressive or pragmatic enough for their liking while acccpeting the premise that the Church is the embodiment of Christ. One can legitimately disagree with the premise on which the Church is found. But I find it logically inconsistent to accept the founding myths(like many liberal Catholics) while bemoaning the Church establishment for adhering to its principles. You can't have it both ways. I don't know what are the theological arguments against liberation theology. But assumming it is sound, I think the individuals who are motivated by conscience and a desire to see justice in THIS world should simply abandon the Chucrh instead of insisting the the Pope must bent the rule to accomodate them.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Peterson, David at Apr 21, 2005 18:36 PM

Contrary to the Church of Rome's philosophical protestations (variously expressed) that its ultimate concern, the “Kingdom of God begun here below in the Church of Christ,” is a Kingdom “not of this world, whose form is passing away," and that this Kingdom "can never mean that the Church is conforming to the things of this world" (“Credo of the People of God," Paul VI, June 30, 1968), Rome's enforced interests and concerns remain very this-worldly. Indeed. Obsessively so. Bwong: You wonder why the Church of Rome would try to be "pragmatic," and you say that you "can't understand why some people would bother to try so very hard to twist the religion to fit their agenda." But this is what Rome---the Church of the Roman Empire and its successor worldly empires---has done for centuries. At least since the early 4th Century, in fact. And you add that "if you are a serious Catholic (instead of a 'cafeteria Catholic' in Ratzinger's word), there is only so far you can deviate from certain core teachings. Even the Pope cannot just change the rules relating to core dogmas to 'move with the time'." Agreed. The counter-revolutionary Cardinals and theologians who just elected Benedict XVI surely rank among the most damnable conclave in the “modern” history of the Church of Rome. This Rome may mouth phrases such as “authentic human liberation” all that its likes. But since the only preferential option that this Rome accepts is Rome's, it understands nothing about the human person or the world. Quite frankly, the cause of human freedom has no choice but to move ahead without it. The sooner, the better.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Apr 21, 2005 11:27 AM

Being a secularist I can't understand why some people would bother to try so very hard to twist the religion to fit their agenda. For example, I have read some literature on queer theology. I find their arguments contrived and unconvincing(based solely on the information they themselves provide as I am not a bible scholar).The old testament seems to be a very homophobic document and it's very hard to pretend otherwise. In case there is any misundertsanding I am not defending Catholic doctrines. All I am saying is that if you are a serious Catholic(instead of a "cafeteria Catholic" in Ratzinger's word), there is only so far you can deviate from certain core teachings. Even the Pope cannot just change the rules relating to core dogmas to "move with the time". IMHO the "anything goes" Churches are a joke. Instead of butchering the Scriptures(whatever religion)to meet their needs they should either write their own scared text like the new agers or admit that basically (wo)man creates god(s) in his(her) own image and be done with it.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Apr 21, 2005 10:58 AM

I understand Catholic doctrine holds that sex is only for procreation. Starting with this position it would be inconsistent for the Church to allow condoms and homsexual acts. Likewise you can't expect any Pope to come out to support abortion and stem cell research starting with the postion that life begins in conception. These are the core beliefs of Catholicism. (Ordination of women and celibacy of priesthoo may be negotiable,priests were married before the 11th centry) Being an atheist I cannot comment on Catholic theology.But at least the conservatives are consistent. Liberal critics within the Church almost always appeal to pramagtism(accept for people like Bishop Spong of the Aglican Church, but one wonders why does he even call himself a Christian, having denying that Jesus even exist). Even liberal Catholics acknowledge Ratzinger is a one of the best Catholic theologian. Their problem is he does not move with the time. Now should the Church be pragmatic? That is not obvious to me if you start with the premise that the Church embodies eternal turth.Jesus did say that only very few could follow the path.

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By Peterson, David at Apr 21, 2005 06:30 AM

Friends: On a related note, please see the story conveyed by the following two items:
"Students T it up: Gay or nay," Maudlyne Ihejirika, Chicago Sun-Times, April 20, 2005 "Students tell of tension on gay tolerance day," Kati Phillips, Daily Southtown, April 20, 2005 "Supporters of gay tolerance should not be deterred," Editorial, Daily Southtown, April 24, 2005
Homewood-Flossmoor, the American high school in question, is located a few miles to the south of where I live. To quote the new Pope Benedict XVI from his years as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, then head of the Interdicasterial Commission charged with producing the Catechism of the Catholic Church ("The Vocation to Chastity"):
Chastity and homosexuality 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[141] tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."[142] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
All of this business allegedly falls under the Sixth Commandment: "Thou shalt not commit adultery." But duly ecumenical, and though labeled "contrary to the natural law," "objectively disordered," and "acts of grave depravity," nevertheless, at least Par. 2358 states that gays "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." Considerably more humane and tolerant than the youth of America, I fear. At least a lot of those attending Homewood-Flossmoor High School, south of Chicago.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Apr 20, 2005 02:37 AM

'I think that the apparent contradictions of an anti-war Pope who promoted so many damaging, reactionary policies around the world and chastised those liberation catholics who fought neo-liberalism, can be resolved through understanding PJPII's overarching philosophy." There is no contradiction here(at least not as great as it appears) The Church is limited by its ideology. There are certain core beliefs that most Catholics uphold,--with the exception of some dissidents who are outside the mainstream of Catholicism,-- otherwise they won't be Catholics. I haven't looked into it, but I doubt that even the liberation theologians would hold much different views than PJPII on condoms, homsexuality and ordination of women.In fact, given the cultural melieu of latin America I wouldn't be surprised if the Marxist Priests were socially even more conservative than PJPII.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Apr 20, 2005 02:09 AM

Just heard from the news that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger,aka God's Rotweiler, head of the Holy Inquisition, was elected Pope. He will henceforth be known as Pope Benidict XVI. Standing next to this guy PJPII looks like a liberal.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Jautter, Mind at Apr 09, 2005 23:33 PM

Bwong- Along with power come responsibility and accountability.Aids made its debut during the tenure of both Reagan and PJP2.Reagan's response to the disease was, fuck those gay bastards,they get what they deserve.Once the transmission cycle of the disease was established,Reagan and PJP2 could have set aside politics and dogma and nipped the scourge in the bud.So much for what if. PJP2 was great because he abhorred and denounced war? People dying a quick death from a bullet or a bomb is worse than a slow lingering death from a totally preventable disease?He had the soapbox but failed to use it.Funerals are strange.Nixon and Reagan both got cudos at theirs,kind of gives me hope for mine.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Peterson, David at Apr 09, 2005 00:56 AM

Friends: I hope that all of you are as heartened as I am to be reminded that the recently-departed John Paul II was not only an "ardent foe of unjust and unwise wars," but that "his opposition to the war in Iraq - and to all forms of preemptive war - is at the very heart of the legacy he has left with regard to international relations." ("The Anti-War Pope," John Nichols, posted April 7, 2005.) And that we can rely upon no less a bastion of the American Left than The Nation to instruct us about this. (As seconded by one of the newer bastions of the American Left, Truthout. And god-only-knows how many other progressive AlterNet- and CommonDreams-like electronic services to come.) I can still recall this very same Nation not-too-long ago devoting some pages to the German philosopher, Jurgen Habermas, who, during the run-up to the Americans' "unjust and unwise" war over Iraq, instructed The Nation's readers that, Yes, the 1990 "Iraqi invasion of Kuwait was a violation of international law," calling for a military response. And that, Yes, when "[c]onfronted with crimes against humanity, the international community must be able to act even with military force, if all other options are exhausted." ("Letter to America," December 16, 2002.) But then when it came time to apply these cosmopolitan and indeed universal principles to the unjust and indeed criminal American aggression over Iraq, some three months later---fell silent. Curiously enough.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Jautter, Mind at Apr 08, 2005 17:18 PM

This just in- Vatican opts for electronic voting machines,Bush elected Pope.Die Bold investigating possible software glitch.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Organum, Baby at Apr 08, 2005 15:27 PM

There are Gospels attributed to Nikodemus and Thomas has two. ( Read about J:C. as a naughty kid in the childhood gospel ) Many more. In two I have read the lord after coming back open a gap to the abyss and shows the diciples the devil himself held in chain by 660 angels. And apropos popes. There is this papal bule atributed to honorius the great ( ca 1500 ) that instructs the clergie to vage war on satan. By Binding devils and using their power for good. If its real he is likely to have read some of those "forbidden" gospels Quite a read and interesting perspective on witchhunts, wich sort of leads back to Cardinal Ratzinger and his critique of the theology of liberation. ;-)

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Apr 08, 2005 06:44 AM

Joe, You're right that social consevatism does have an economical costs and that PJPII's social conservatism is incompatible with his economical progressive outlook. But consistency is not a easy goal to attain for most people. I think the late Pope's progressive take on globalisation, capitalism, economical justice and third word debt deserves acknowledgement even though he was reactionary in other regards. PJPII's antipathy towards liberation theology does not necessarily meant he wasn't serious about economical justice. He might have problem with marxism at other levels and the apparant mixing up Christianity and atheism. I won't be surprised if he mistrusted Marxism because of his experience in Poland. It doesn't occur to me Engler was trying to argue that PJPII was a radical. PS I am an atheist so I have no vested interest in this. But I think it is a cheap shot to lump PJPII, Reagan and the Bushes together like the poster above did.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Jautter, Mind at Apr 08, 2005 02:18 AM

Stupid comment I just made. I wish harm to no man.Guess the fact that Jimmy Carter was denied a seat on Air Force One to Rome pissed me off.If,when defining the meaning of Christian,deeds outweigh spin,J.C.will have to go down in history as one of the greatest.How in the hell did we end up paying for a 747 that only seats five?[ Bushes 1&2,Condi,Clinton &I forget the fifth wheel but I'm sure that he ain't no saint.]

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Jautter, Mind at Apr 08, 2005 01:25 AM

If an afterlife exists , I'm sure Raygun and PJP2 would have lots to talk about.If only W. and company could join in the conversation.

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Apr 06, 2005 04:19 AM

"If the next Pope allows his Holy Likeness to be reproduced on the wrappers of condoms,the world will finally see a church that is willing to take a stance .." Maybe condom with Jesus's likeness on it? The brand name would be "second coming". :(

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Re: Jesus Cristo Libertador?

By Jautter, Mind at Apr 06, 2005 01:54 AM

If the next Pope allows his Holy Likeness to be reproduced on the wrappers of condoms,the world will finally see a church that is willing to take a stance to benefit mankind rather than to perpetuate dogma that is causing so much misery,especially in the third world.Hunger-there would be enough food if there weren't so many people-AIDES could eliminated cheaply in just one generation of our species.Of course, it's not just the Catholics,all of the religions of the world need to realize God gave us brains to think.If that were not so,God would have enclosed us in wool and we would have a universal language--BAAAA.

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