Bwong I am wondering where you got the information that shows that hezzbollah is funded by Iran?  I know this is the commonly accepted situation according to rightwing dominant media, however this does not make it true.

 

Secondly, your oppinions on the state of Israel's democracy are just that, your opinion.  As the US confirms, open political systems can be very authoritarian and imperialist, I would say they are the most outwardly aggressive states, but that would just be my opinion. 

 

Thirdly, do you really wonder why Hezzbollah was not allowed into the political system?  Hint: look up US aid $ increases to Lebonon in the past few years. 

 

Lastly, I would challange your opinion that only states have a right to demand independence and human rights.  This is a very old notion, and one that appeases the hegemonic forces of capital, it has been made obsolete not by terrorists, rather by global capitals movement behond the nation-state.  What is good for the goose is good for the gander, nation-state-centric thinking is outdated and does not fit with the (post)modern world realities.    

Religion only lead to bad stuff. Literally millions of people have died because of religions. I am confident that the world would be a much better place without religions. Perhaps then people could talk about real issues instead of illusions such as "God" (I sometimes prefer to say "dog"..). Some will say the religions themselves aren't the problem, but the various heads of religions, and elites that use religions to increase their own power. I see that, and at least partially agree. That is certainly going on. But without religions this could not happen. And if the Middle East "crisis" have thought us anything, it is that the religions there lead to conflicts. Sure there are good passages in the Bible and the Quran, but there are also very disturbing passages. I honestly believe that at some point mankind will open their eyes and understand this, and religions will vanish. It is however extremely unlikely to happen in this century. Once religions are gone, it will be a lot harder to keep up racism as well, as a fair share of it is based on religion. Perhaps at some point in time people will simply see other people as different people. Then there will be a real possibility of ending wars and hatred.

and the broader political and social situation in Lebanon, I offer the following links: http://www.merip.org/mero/mero073106.html http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200608/SPE20060802a.html it is simplistic to paint Hizballah as an agent of Iran but this ignores a domestic context of civil war and foreign intervention and occupcation by players like Israel, Syria, America, France, Italy, etc., during that time. It is rather incredible that Lebanon managed to put together a functioning, pluralistic and democratic government after a 20-year civil war and despite an ongoing occupation of the south of their country by Israel that ended in 2000 and (and began again in 2006) and a Syrian military presence that only ended in 2004. Hizballah's mature domestic political orientation that balances religious beliefs against the pluralistic and secular realities of government in Lebanon have much to the with that achievement.

Dear anti-Semite Leila, You wrote: Disarming Hizballah without another defense option when Israel continually makes threats against Lebanese sovereignty, both before and after Hizballah came into existence, would be national suicide. The reason Israel wants Hizballah disarmed is so that it can march into Beirut whenever it decides it is necessary, without paying any price for its aggression. Then why wasn't the Hezzbollah integrated into the Lebanese armed force? Why is it that a nomially soverign country has to rely on a private, sectarian militia backed by foreign powers ,-- Iran and Syria,-- for its "sovereignty"? Are you really so obtuse that you cannot see the contradiction in your argument, or is it a joke? Israel has withdrawn from Lebanon six years ago. Damascas has been meddling in Lebanon's internal politics ever since. Even Lebanon's current president is widely considered a Syrian puppet and is implicated in the murder of Hariri. His term supposedly ended in 2004, but he stays on because of some deals worked out with Syria. So who is threatening Lebanon's sovereignty? The Syrians didn't have to march to Berut, they were sitting right there for quite some times until they got booted out recently. "You can try to pretend that Hizballah is a sectarian bone of contention. You would, however, be ignoring a poll conducted at the end of July which shows that 97% of Shiites, 89% of Sunnis and 80% of Christians support Hizballah's resistance to Israel." That was after Israel's massive bombing. It is not surprisng that with indiscriminated bombing Israel has driven people to the Hezzbollah, whom they thought of as their protector.But that can change after things calm down. I have always maintained that Israel's bombing on Lebanon was not morally justifiable. It is also stragtegically unwise as it alienates a lot of Christians, Druz and even Sunni who were antipathic towards the Hezzbollah prior to the bombings. "I should also mention that the Lebanese people almost universally agree that Chebaa farms is Lebanese territory and that it is occupied illegally by Israel who acquired it during the 1967 war" The UN concluded that Lebanon does not have a case. But even if you don't agree with the U.N., you still don't have a point. Border disputes are common among many neighbouring countries. That is not a justification for private warlords operating outside the state. That goes back to my original point. Lebanon is not a functioning democracy. It is a dysfunctional country balkenized by sectarian politics. Since that is your example of "multi-cultural" democracy at work in the M.E., you have basically confirmed my point. "Why do you consistently accuse Arabs and Muslims of tribalism and fundamentalism while ignoring that Israel is a state based on a tribal definition and religious exclusivism?" Obviously you either do not read or cannot read. First I have never said all Arabs are tribalists and/or fundamentalists. But surly the people who set the politcal agendas are. What do you call your heros the Hezzbollah and its Iranian and Syrian backers? This is relevant in appraising Israel. It has to be judged according to regional norm, not some multi-cultural ideal only exists somewhere else or in leftist's head. In that context your idea of a single, binational state is simply un realistic and unjustifiable. I am not saying only the Arabs are tribal.So are the Jews but that is understood. I said many time the middle east conflict is based on 19th centry tribal nationalist narrative on both sides Which part is not clear? You on the other hand consistently use double standard. A Jewish state is supposedly a crime against humanity even though Israel compares favourably (at least internally) with most Arab states and certainly all Islamic states in terms of democratic institutions, political right to dissent, civil liberty and human rights. But you have no problem with a grotesque theocracy like Iran acquiring the nuke and cheerleading for its proxy the Hezzbollah,-- themselves Shiite fundamentalists seeking to create an Iranian style regime. I think it is fair that Israel should withdraw to its pre 1967 border. I fully support any equitable two state settlement. But you and your cheerleading extremists here continue to argue that Israel has no right to exist, that it should be "dissolved". That is counter productive and rejectionist. If that is the position of a lot of the Arabs, it is understandable that Israel acts like a mad dog to shove its right to exist down the Arabs' collective throat. You cannot expect Israel to negotiate with people who try to plot its demise whenever they have a chance, either militarily or demograhocally. "Why are trying to furnish justifications or excuses for Israel's violent reoccupation of south Lebanon?" When did I do that?

Hi, I just added some relevant comments after Chomsky's "Kinda" piece and also Mouammar's piece. I think you are missing the big picture here.

When did I say I support Israel's invasion of Lebanon? It is one thing to condemn the esculation of violence, quite another to cheer Hezzbollah like many do here. For the record I condemned IDF bombings especially in Northern Lebanon right from the start. But how can you say it is war crime on one side to kill civilians while it is ok for another side to lope 3000 rockets into towns and cities and use their own civilians as human shields? It is laughable to even call me a "Zionist". I have no stake in it. As far as I am concernd the Jews and Arabs can kill each other til kingdom comes. It may be the way natural selection works to eliminate stupid and violent genes. But what I can't stand is obvioulsy partisian people pretending to be speaking out for some universal justice. Ask yourself an honest question. Do you think the Arabs and muslims would give a damn over displaced people and occupation if it is not because of the Jewish nature of Israel? There are plenty of injustice and atrocities going on in the vast amount of land they do control and there are plenty of persecutions of ethnic and religious minorities. So why do you think the Arabs are singling out Israel for their outrage?Over the years a lot more Arabs and muslims are killed and tortured by fellow Arabs and muslims than by Israel.Why the selective condemnation? Why is it that the dispute over such a ridiculous small piece of desert wasteland continues to inflame the whole region after so many years? Does it at least have something to do with the fact that Israel represents a Jewish soverign entity in supposedly Muslim turf? For the palestinians their hatred is understandable, but for their Arab and muslim so called supporters it is sheer hypocrisy and bigotry of the highest order. To argue that the Jews must accept multi-cultural ideal vis a vis the Arabs without taking into account the nature of politics in the region is at best naive, at worse anti-semitic double standard. BTW, if you question the right of Israel to exist (even within its 1967 border as bigoted extremists such as Leila here) why don't you question Pakistan's right to exist? It was created in the same way around the same time. Again double standard, hypocrisy. bwong

Same speech, last nite I went to visit a friend. It resorted that my friend is of a zionist ideology and was desireous to wipe out all arabs.. He basically called me anti-semitic for talking against Zionism because in his opinion that what Isralis wants. His views about arabs were clearly racists and when confronted to this fact he admitted to being racist! I was clearly in shock, his vision of the world is a world without arabs. I argued that by his standing he is asking people to take side and close their eyes on a human crime, I compared Hitler and his vision about the Jews and Olmert and his vision of arabs and told him by his standards, you would not have a Jew standing today.. In his zionism mind, he has some birth right to a promesse land ( where ever that was, was it ever true), it was ok for him to condemn arabs for their religious beleief, but not ok to question his supremacist religion. ( I kinda disbelief the speech i was submitted..) Our fathers erased nazism because it was a racist monstruosity, it seem that some people somewhere created another racist monstruosity called zionism.

Dear Bigot Bwong, Hizballah defends Lebanon's southern border from Israeli incursions. It has not been disarmed because many people in Lebanon, including non-Hizballah members were cognizant of the ongoing threat of Israeli invasion and reoccupation of south Lebanon, and the Lebanese army is known to be completely incapable of mounting a defense to an Israeli ground invasion. Disarming Hizballah without another defense option when Israel continually makes threats against Lebanese sovereignty, both before and after Hizballah came into existence, would be national suicide. The reason Israel wants Hizballah disarmed is so that it can march into Beirut whenever it decides it is necessary, without paying any price for its aggression. You can try to pretend that Hizballah is a sectarian bone of contention. You would, however, be ignoring a poll conducted at the end of July which shows that 97% of Shiites, 89% of Sunnis and 80% of Christians support Hizballah's resistance to Israel. Not everything in Lebanon falls along sectarian lines or is determined by "tribal" politics. It is a little bit more complex than that. An outsider having mastered that there are different groups in Lebanon would be tempted to attribute all political and social developments to such categorization, but such an understanding of the situation would then be woefully incomplete. I should also mention that the Lebanese people almost universally agree that Chebaa farms is Lebanese territory and that it is occupied illegally by Israel who acquired it during the 1967 war. Another 7 villages that were made up of Shiite Lebanese were taken by Israel in 1948 war, and their villagers expelled. So there is still much Lebanese territory that is occupied by Israel, and as you know, occupied peoples have the right to resist their occupier, violently if they so choose. Additionally, the issue of Lebanese prisoners, some of whom have been held incommunicado for over 20 years in Israeli jails, is not a minor issue. It is a huge issue and all Lebanese parties agreed that the prisoners should be returned. Considering that Israel has repeatedly failed to abide by international law and relevant security council resolutions in this regard, what are the Lebanese supposed to do? Sit around an wait for people to die in Israeli jails before they are released? I ask you again Bwong, why are you obsessed with painting all Muslims and Arabs as backwards, violent, evil people, instead of recognizing the very legitimate grievances they have with the Israeli state? Why do you consistently accuse Arabs and Muslims of tribalism and fundamentalism while ignoring that Israel is a state based on a tribal definition and religious exclusivism? Why are trying to furnish justifications or excuses for Israel's violent reoccupation of south Lebanon? In short, why do you use imperial and racist terminology to justify imperial racist wars? You might be a leftist, but if so, you are a leftist bigot with a huge blind spot when it comes to Israel. Calling me an anti-semite for recognizing your racism for what it is won't make me stop calling a spade a spade. And by the way, you are the anti-semite. I'm semitic and so are my people. You don't seem to give a damn if we die in the thousands along with our Jewish brothers and sisters so as long the racism and fundamentalism of Zionism isn't subject to any scrutiny. You can call me whatever names you want to. I know who I am and what I stand for and no amount of hyberbolic analysis designed to shame me into apologizing for my culture (of which you know nothing clearly) will make me change my mind. Finally, I am done responding to you directly. From now on, any points you raise that I feel need addressing will be done without addressing you directly. I don't maintain friendships or dialogue with racists. I gave up trying to convince racists of my humanity a long time ago. That I have spent so much time responding to you messages thus far was due to my incomprehension at the change from your rational, fair postings in the past to a gung-ho leap on to the war party bandwagon. I thought it was just temporary insanity, but it looks like you are in it for the long haul. So enjoy these bloody wars of conquest and destruction in the name of "progress" and "democracy" that you so valiantly defend while they last. Nevermind those whose lives, families and countries are being torn apart and destroyed. They will continue to resist with every breath in their bodies, with or without your support, and I have no doubt that their focused pursuit of dignity, truth and justice will one day bear fruit.

You say that :-

 

"Israel isn't doing anything to provoke Syria or Iran or Algeria or Sudan or Malaysia or Iraq or any of the others. "

 

Well, none of those countries are doing anything to provoke the USA. So why are the US interferring and demonising all these countries?

What you are saying is precisely true. What you fail to see is that it takes both parties to fight a war. Israel is accomplishing nothing at all by destroying Lebanon - nothing. Actually, I believe they are significantly worsening the situation every time they invade another country, another people. They think that violence is going to solve their problems, when the fact is that violence has only exascerbated their problems over the many years this has been going on.If they want the world to see their side, they should refrain from bloody aggression every time there is a suicide bomber attack, or a kidnapping, or a solitary and poorly aimed rocket lobbed over the border. It is over-reaction to do what they have done, and only makes things worse. Not better. Worse. They cannot win this war. Not now. Not in the future. Ever. They can only make things worse. When will they learn that? Let the Arabs teach their young to hate those who took their fathers and grandfathers homes and livelihoods. Let them hate. They deserve that much. You will not stop the hate by more killing and destruction. Let Israel maintain an army to defend its land against those who would destroy them. But stop at the border. Israel is strong. The Arabs know that. Everyone knows that. They are quite good at defending themselves. But they are not going to stop cross-border attacks. And they are not going to stop suicide bombers. But they can take measures that will reduce such occurrances. But violence outside of their territory is not the answer. It never has been and it never will be. You can place all the blame you wish on the Arabs, and perhaps even much of what you say is true (though from the Arabs view, they feel they have good reason). And you can try to convince people that Israel is only defending itself when it crosses its borders and destroys everything in sight. But in the end, the truth is that Israel's tactics win it no wars, win it no friends, and makes things far worse for everyone, including Israel itself. You would think that after 50 years someone in Israel would have figured this out by now, that perhaps they were going about all this the wrong way. But they haven't, and they will continue to pay the price. And so will all the folks around them. If they had spent all that money they use to purchase heavy arms from the Dark One instead on food, clothing, housing, hospitals, education, land, and jobs for the Palestinians, perhaps the seething hatred would not be so bad. Perhaps the militants would not have been so easily able to gather recruits and sympathy. Perhaps the world would frown more quickly upon the militants. But that's not going to happen, is it? It's the only thing that has never been tried. But it's still not going to happen. Why? Because the Zionists don't want peace any more than the militants. War and violence and killing and destruction and fear serve their purposes to stay in power. It's an age-old truth. Invade the Palestinians with peace and goodwill and real assistance, and the militant movements would weaken considerably over time - secure people at peace don't want to fight. It's as simple as that.

Do you have any better argument than throwing epithets and insults. It seems to me you are just another anti-semitic bigot parading as "progressive". If you take a moment off your hysterical hypervantilation and actually read what I wrote, you should know that I never deny there are many positive aspects in the M.E. Except I don't see how these are relevant to the subject at hand. The people who set the agenda, the people who have the guns, the money, the organizations are not the nice people you interact with on a day to day basis. To deny that is wilful ignorance. You said there are many people in Lebanon who want to transcend sectarian politics. If that is true it just proves my point again :they have squat impact on the political reality. Please tell us why, six years after Israeli withdrawal, the Hezzbollah is still a state within a state, without being either disarmed or integrated into the Lebanese armed force? Please tell us why, if there has been a "dialogue", the Hezzbollah has actually become stronger and more well armed,--thanks to Syria and Iran,-- relative to the Lebanese government while this "dialogue" was supposedly going on? You show your true bigot colour when you blame the abortion of this "dialogue" on Israel's only month old attack while conveniently ignoring Syria, which has been the defacto occupier of Lebanon until the "Cider revolution".If you recall the Hezzbollah actually organized pro Syrian protests when it was clear that they could no longer stay in Lebanon. Would it be possible that Syrian support has allowed the Hezzbollah to strive even though, a "resistance" should cease to exist once occupation ends? No, of course not, it is all Israel's fault in your bigoted mind. It is laughable that you compared the FLQ with the Hezzbollah. The FLQ was a rat tag group with probably less than a hundred hard line followers. They were not a "militia" and they did not launch cross boder attacks. And most importantly, Trudeau cracked down hard on the FLQas one would expect from any federal governmnet which exists more than just on paper. The FLQ was no more as soon as it commited kidnap and murder. I won't debate the war measure act here, but the point is no seperate armed political entity should be allowed to operate within a functioning democracy. Lebanon isn't one. You still could not refute my point that sectarian and tribal politics are the norm in the M.E.(and the Palestinian- Israeli conflict has to be viewed in that context) In fact you confirmed it again. bwong P.S. Interstingly by saying the Hezzbollah does not bully peope you actually confirmed that there is real divide in Lebanses population along religious/sectarian line. Again that proves tribal/sectarian politics has a deep root in the region, not just some shifting alliance driven by events of the day.

Me cries, i am in disbelief, Canada gives lands and houses to people who would denies palestinians their houses and children their schools. ( this when Canada could had been a haven for more palestinians. ) This is typical of the right-wing people whom become wealthy. They used our public system, UIC, gorvernment programs and financing systerm our social infractructures, and now that they earned $$$ a year, they dont care for the ones in need. They want tax cuts and they want to remove the social structures that made them wealty... The sick puppies what good for them is no good for others..

I thought you were just a minor racist, but since you repeatedly refuse to acknowledge anything at all positive in Middle Eastern, Arab or Islamic society, it is clear that you are actually a top-notch racist that has fallen hook, line and sinker for Bush's imperialistic war on "Islamic fascism". Have you been to Lebanon bwong? I have. I lived there for a year in 1997-1998. It was one of the most fascinating places I have ever lived and worked with the an extremely cosmopolitan and diverse population. Sure there were some bigots. There are everywhere, including here. But the majority of people I knew were excited about the future and anxious to transcend the sectarian past. Your claim that Shiites dominate and bully Lebanon is totally incorrect and ahistorical. It ignores decades of marginalization the Shiite have contended with as Christian monied elites controlled the corridors of power and the economy. Hizballah has never advocated violence against fellow Lebanese citizens to address these systemic inequalities. Rather, the Hizballah party, like all other parties in Lebanon participated in the National Dialogue that was rather rudely interrupted by Israel's invasion and attempted occupation of south Lebanon. On the issue of Quebec, I'm not quite sure what your point is here. In the late 60's and early 70's Quebec did have its own militia, known as the FLQ (Front de la Liberation du Quebec). They kidnapped British and Canadian ministers and planted bombs in mailboxes in their pursuit of an independent Quebec. Prime Minister Trudeau even (quite stupidly) declared martial law. Was Canada considered "not multicultural" or an "unstable democracy" or a "dysfunctional state balknaised by tribal politics" because of this? Did Canadian or British troops decide to place an air, sea and land blockade on Quebec and aerially bombard Montreal and Quebec City? No. Why? Because that's not the way responsible states behave vis-a-vis people's claims to independence or freedom from occupation. And had the Canadian government behaved in that way, I am very sure you would have seen an independent Quebec today. Bwong, I will not accept that you continue to denigrate Arabs and Muslims in these blogs while pretending that this is some kind of progressive analysis. Calling Arabs and Muslims "tribal" and "islamofascists" is no different from calling Africans "tribal" and "primitive." It shows the same lack of knowledge, human empathy, and nuance necessary for serious analysis. For a supposed "progressive" "leftist", you sure do like mimicking Bush's speech content a lot, and his speeches are designed to pave the way for the imperial wars in areas the US has no business interfering in. You cannot be against these imperial wars while using imperial rhetoric. It's you that needs to wake up and smell the Arabic coffee, from which (by the way) espresso is derived.

Sadly, I do not think that the current cycle of violence will end soon. The Iranian missiles will continue hit Israeli cities, targeted at and killing Israeli civilians, and the Israelis will do their best to stop them, killing even more Lebanese civilians (and a few militants) in the process. There will be a humanitarian crisis in Lebanon, with lots of misery and even more deaths of civilians, including children. And don't even think that I cheer (or feel happy/satisfied) when I see dead arab children, unlike the way the arabs cheer and celebrate and shoot their guns in the streets. This current cycle will eventually end when Israel will be forced to withdraw from Lebanon, under global/UN/USA pressure. Hezbollah will declare victory This will bring a few year of relative quiet, where only a few missiles per day will strike Israeli cities (compared to the hundreds per day now) Which will allow the Hezbollah re-arms themselves and retrain and get ready for the next cycle. (why else did they construct one of the world's largest and most well fortified bunker/war room under their mosque?) The world will rush to help the poor Lebanese rebuild etc., No one will care about the death/destruction/misery in Israel. However, Israel will never give up its right to exist. Jews will never allow themselves to be slaughtered again. as happened in the Hebron massacre of 1929, earlier pogroms in Europe and later the Holocost, etc. Which is what the Iranians just declared they want to do, and WILL do once they have nuclear weapons. So as I see it, the cycle of violence will only end when the arabs will accept the right of Israel to coexist with them. Then Israel will not have a need to defend itself, destroying and killing civilians in the process. Isn't this exactly my "cute" and "bigoted" statement said? Arab lay down their arms there will be no more violence. Jews lay down their arms there will be no more Jews. However, I do not think that either of the above will ever happen in our generation, and possibly the next. The root of the problem is that the arabs are raised from infancy to hate the Jews just listen to the songs that are taught in their schools, or read their textbooks, and compare to the songs the Israeli kids are singing, or their textbooks. or listen to the sermons given by their religious leaders. or read their Koran and what it preaches about spreading of Islam, treatment of non-muslims, or even the treatment of their own women. The suffering will only end when the arabs will accept the right of Israel to exist. I do not see any other outcome. do you?

I want to know NOT who has done wrong - everyone has done wrong - but what you realistically expect your friends the Israelis to accomplish in their destruction of Lebanon and the Gaza strip? Tell me please what to expect from the violence Israel is visiting upon these people? Destruction of Hezbollah? Permanent disarming of Hezbollah? A stronger and friendlier Lebanese government? The retreat of Syria and Iran in fear and hopelessness and their refusal to ever help Hezbollah again? What do you REALLY think will actually be the result of all this? I could not possibly care less what you WANT to happen or WHY. What WILL happen, in your opinion? Victor http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

The arabs never accepted the right of Israel to exist, and are still set on destroying it. All this destruction all this suffering, on both sides, would have never happened if the arabs just accepted the right of Israel to exist. have you read the Israeli Declaration of Independence? "We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East." have you ever read the Palestinian National Charter? which "urges the elimination of Zionism in Palestine and worldwide" (Art. 15) hence my "cute" and "bigoted" remark above. also see: http://www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=798 have you read/listened to any of the songs being taught to children in both cultures? have you looked at textbooks from both cultures? have you read the Koran? do you know what it teaches about non-muslims? about spreading Islam? what about Islam treatment of women? have you ever tried to imagine the entire world ruled under Islamic law? Now, I have no problem with anyone practicing their religion however they see fit, as long as they practice "live and let live", i.e. respect other humans/the environment/animal rights etc, But when it comes to a religion preaching hatred, killing, beheadings, jihad, suicide bombings, etc. I have a little bit of a problem with it... Why do you think the Hizbollah amassed tens of thousands of missiles? Why do you think they stored them under mosques, hospitals, and civilian houses? Do you know that the "mosque under construction" was built on top of one of the largest, most fortified bunkers/war rooms ever built? so much so, that it required several bombing waves and it is still not completely destroyed? Are you aware that the daily number of missiles landing in Israel is more than four time as many as were lobed by the Germans on England? Do you recall what the allied forces did to the German cities in retaliation? or the Japanese cities? And the German/Japanese civilians did not hide missiles in their churches hospitals and houses... Compare to that, Israel is being very light handed. Too much so in my opinion.

Bwong the above videos are unreliable, there is no way to tell if the building were evacuated.. i wouldnt give much credit on the recent Israeli video were it was alleged a confession from an hizbollah fighter, (the video was full of cuts and was apparently edited says yahoo!) the fighter apparently "confessed" to have kidnapped israeli soldiers in gaza.. Since you are an expert in HTML perhaps you should try to format your posts a little better. It is hard to tell which parts of your posts are quotations from others and which are your replies.

Only when you stop double posting :)

Bwong , don't let your spirit tarvel, but Quebec loves Palestinians, quebecers walk for palestinans.. see link cyrano

You wrote: "They are now an elected part of the government of lebanon, the movement was born of of resistance, Hizbollah appear to be to be sympatic to the palestinians cause.. what does have the USto do with Israeli..?" The U.S does not go out of its way to rocket any country on Israel's behalf, does it? Do Hezbollah, or their Iranian and Syrian backers contribute significantly in humanitarian aid to the PA if they are so sympathetic? Iran gets money. Being an "elected part" of the government is not the same as having a democratic mandate to declare war, I am sure you understand this elementary point. The NDP does not have the authority to declare war on anyone even though they are also an "elected part" of our government and apparantly are sympathetic to the Palestinians too. "there as isareli are non-muslim they should be excluded from shari'a.. give arabs the choice they want, who knows may be palestinians are better at democracy than israelis or the US; it did have some insight when the heads of OLP vanished under rocket, suicide and poison.." Thanks you for saying that so honestly and openly. Maybe the Jews would be exempted from Sharia at the mercy and good will of the Arabs, like other "protected minorities" in Islamic states. Maybe the Arabs will keep the Jews as their favourite pets. Maybe the Arabs would be democratic... Maybe.. This is all I need to hear to understand where you're coming from. This is all an Israeli would need to hear to be convinced that they are indeeed right in hitting the Arabs ten times as hard everytime Israel gets provoked. So anoynmous' "cute statement" that "when the Jews lay down their arms Israel would cease to exist" is not so cute after all (BTW, Victor, it was taken out of Today's Globle and Mail letters to editor section. maybe annoy actually wrote the letter) Your sentiment is not uncommon among self declared Palestinians supporters. This is a reason(among others) why I am having serious second thought over my previous position on the M.E.(you can still find record of my debates with people such as Zubub on this site) But rarely do I hear it stated so honestly and clearly. Are you an undercover Zionist, just curious? The rest of your paragraph is gibberish. I have no idea what you were talking about. "I don't know if you take extremes as being the norm, you'll get nowhere. start by simplifying the issue by stopping the war. resolve one problem at the time but do it in a manner that is acceptable for palestinians first." It has to be acceptible to the Israeli too if any negotiation is to go anywhere. The Israeli would be insane to accept your position. Hezbollah seeks to globalize its conflict with Israel using the Palestinians as an excuse.Their stated goal has always been to destroy Israel. Palestine is a Muslim v.s Jew issue rather than a humanitarian one for religious fanatics like the Hezbollah. People who have a fethish for "martrydom" are never motivated by humanitarianism. As an aside, you are cheering as heros thugs who target Israeli civilians. Casualities are lower on the Israeli side but it is not for lack of trying. Israel kills many civilians(it is appalling) but it does have a point that the Hezbollah are using human sheids and hide their rocket lauchers in houses and apartments.To take out Hezbollah's capacity of firing rockets they do seem to have to attack nominally civilian targets. A senior UN offical in charge of humanitarian releif made a strong condemnation againtst Hezbollah's tactics. A Canadian major in the UN obeserver force emailed Gen. Lewis Mackenzie shortly before he was killed by an Israeli bomb. He said the Hezbollah were using U.N force as shield and he knew troubles were coming. Hezbollah's rockets are fired randomly all over towns and cities with only one purpose, to kill as many civilians as possible. bwong

You wrote when and if americans were to occupy Quebec and commmit as much atrocities as the Israeli toward the palestinians, Quebec people would rise.. in insight I wouldnt be surprised that arabs people would rise for Quebecers because arabs are a courageous people whom deserve recognition.. Israel has withdrawn from Lebenon six years ago. Why haven't the Hezbollah been integrated into the Lebanese armed force but still remain a state within a state? In fact it has grown much stronger because of Iran and Syrian backing which bypassed the Lebanese government. And what do Palestinians have to do with Quebec? P.S. Since you are an expert in HTML perhaps you can try to format your post a little better. It is hard to tell which parts of your posts are quotations from others and which are your replies. bwong

Very cute statement. I wonder how long it took you to think that one up? It is also one of the most blatantly racist and obviously bigotted statements made on these blogs anywhere in my opinion. There are many many things that would prevent an Arab massacre of Jews - chief among which would be the Arabs themselves, if Isra4el truly laid down their arms. But on a more realistic note, no one is asking the Jews to lay down their weapons. They are only being asked to use them strictly for defensive purposes (REALLY defensive purposes, not vicious unprincipled agressision dressed up like defense). Victor http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

bwong i fail to see were leila spell anything racist or anti-semitic.. Can you imagine Quebec having its own militia which is better trained and equipped than the Canadian army and routinely gets into border conflicts with the U.S without the appproval or knowledge of the Canadian parliament? when and if americans were to occupy Quebec and commmit as much atrocities as the Israeli toward the palestinians, Quebec people would rise.. in insight I wouldnt be surprised that arabs people would rise for Quebecers because arabs are a courageous people whom deserve recognition.. Vive La Palestine libre! cyrano..

Leila, Are you lacking in ability in addressing subtsantial points beyond name calling? I think you are an anti-Jew bigot based on your writing here. See, it is easy. Anyone can name call. Grow up. I am glad you mention Lebanon. The Christians and Shiite muslims are at each others' throat even without Israel. There is a clear speration geographically and politically between these two groups. Remember Syria was the defacto occupier of Lebanon just not too long ago. The Chrsitians wanted them out, the Shiites wanted them stay. Remember the protests and counter protests clearly along religious line during the "Cider revolution"? Now is that the kind of "multi-cultural" societies where different religions and enthnicities coexist in harmony that you are preaching? What kind of a stable democracy is that when the Shiites have their private army which is more powerful than the state defence force, it opeartes on its own, has its own weapon supply and holds the country hostage with its actions? Can you imagine Quebec having its own militia which is better trained and equipped than the Canadian army and routinely gets into border conflicts with the U.S without the appproval or knowledge of the Canadian parliament? Lebanon is a perfect example of a dysfunctional country balkanised and paralysed by tribal politics. "Multi-cultural" it surly is, but it is not the kind of "multi-culturalism" most sane people have in mind. Thanks for proving my point. Wake up and smell the expresso. bwong

your "islamofascist" outlook on the Middle East. You consistently ignore evidence of multicultural societies in the Arab world that are right under your nose. Lebanon is currently being destroyed by Israel largely because it had a multiconfessional democratic model that directly challenges the mythology of a monolithic Middle East. Sure it needs improvement and work towards that was being undertaken in a National Dialogue between the different political and religious groups to undertake reforms that would eliminate barriers to civil marriage, for example. Israel, "the only democracy in the Middle East" itself does not allow civil marriages to be performed domestically. Lebanon's movement towards true National Reconciliation deeply threatens the Zionist mythology that holds that Arabs are Muslims and are incapable of living of living with anyone else. That;s part of the reason the Israeli government jumped at the chance to destroy it. There are lots of other examples like this in the Middle East and I don't know why you choose to ignore them to succumb to speculative fearmongering about what happens when the "Islamofascists" wins. What is happening on the ground right now is far more relevant, and the dehumanization and racism being unleashed by those with the power to enact their genocidal fantasies with devastating effects - over 1000 killed in Lebanon in a month and over 170 in Gaza - writing these deaths off as a "preventative measure" is both ill and wrong. Stop with the hyperbole bwong! and stop quoting me in defense of your racist outlook that refuses to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence of a number of mutliethnic, multilinguistic, multireligious and mutlinational political and social movements in what is known as the Arab world and the Islamic world. I am not naive, but you are definitely ignorant as regards Arabs, Islam and the Middle East. And we are not on the same side. My understanding of leftist thinking firmly rejects the dehumanization and demonization of a vast segment of humanity designed to smooth the path of broken bones being taken by imperial interests in the region. Please refrain from using me as a human shield for your intolerance towards the Arab and Islamic world. Thank you. Leila

this without prejudice:

1) What do Hezbollah have to do with the Palestinians?

They are now an elected part of the government of lebanon, the movement was born of of resistance, Hizbollah appear to be
to be sympatic to the palestinians cause.. what does have the US
to do with Israeli..?

Do they have the right to strike India because of grievances of muslims in Kashmir? hizbollah seem to havesome occupation problem of its own.. ( one problem at the time bwong)

2) What do the Palestinians get out of the hezbollah's latest antics? No difference from Saddam hitting Israel with Scuds in the early 1990's if you ask me,

I disagree its seem that both Israel and Hizbollah are taking population in hostage..if hizbollah was having benefit of increase in weapons such as the weapons used by Israel, it is more likely Israel would sit and negotiate.. you can be assured Lebanon want to negotiate after the terrorist aatck on its soil.

that is, worse than nothing because there will be a political price to pay down the road. And dearly the Palestinians will pay (So interestingly while Zneters are cheering the Hezbollah for allegely "standing up for the Palestinians" when rockets fall on Israel, the PA is a lot more cautious in expressing their enthusiasm).

So far, palestinians get increased repression mainly because the US is acting like a coward and playing favoritism..

In the 1990's you were probably telling people Saddam was the only one standing up for the Palestinians too if you were around (I was too young to know anything about politics then)

The only thing I approve of Hussein was that under his regime oil was
under nationalization; it benefited all iraqis.
9also Iraq was mostly secular and gas was cheaper before the war..if you pay attention countless Iraqis died because of a dark empire dream of domination.)

According to you it is likely the Arabs want to live under some medieval religious fascism because they are muslims. If that is the case 1) Why do you insist Israel should give Palestinians the right to return, so that the Jews would become an oppressed minotrity in a short time and be subjected to Sharia?

there as isareli are non-muslim they should be excluded from shari'a.. give arabs the choice they want, who knows may be palestinians are better at democracy than israelis or the US; it did have some insight when the heads of OLP vanished under rocket, suicide and poison..

Based on your own scenario you are essentially condemning the Israeli for not consenting to suicide.

Leila on the other hand holds out this rosy vision of "multi-cultural" non zionist Israel.

Leila lives in Canada, she knows its possible for people to live harmoniously together, at the current time Israel and palestinian are one state wher the palestinians are opressed.this has to stop, from a respectuous one sate, a two -state solution can evolve and is still possible if people can negotiate.

While hopelessly naive she at least makes some logical sense.Your premise is exactly opposite to hers if you haven't realized. 2)It may be the right of "Muslims" to choose to live under bin-Laden but why do you think they have the right to impose their medieval beliefs on non muslims and moderates alike? Like Leila says, the ME is not monolithic. Since oppression is oppression, why should I as a non Arab and non Jew worry about Israeli Palestinians not allowed to own land but ignoring Arabs mass murdering the kurds, enslaving blacks and berbers, or Muslims oppressing other muslisms and non muslim minorities with massacres, torture and executions?

I don't know if you take extremes as being the norm, you'll get nowhere. start by simplifying the issue by stopping the war. resolve one problem at the time but do it in a manner that is acceptable for palestinians first.

Unlike you, I base my arguments on universal justice, I don't believe people "choose" to be oppressed volunatarily just because of their race or religion. To say otherwise, like you do, is racist. Iranian leftists supported the Mullahs in Iran in 1979, they only realized their mistakes when they found themselves hanging on lamp posts( These people sounded remarkably like Leila) Deluded leftists today who claim the Hezbollah are "demonized" haven't learned from history.

Iran's oil is stil nationalized.. IMO the left is not only learning, it is also teaching not to give up fighting to ameliorate the conditions of the poor. The left have ideas that deserve to be explored, refined; the left should not be secluded or condemned because ideas.

cyrano

Cyrano, You still haven't answered my questions. 1) What do Hezbollah have to do with the Palestinians? Do they have the right to strike India because of grievances of muslims in Kashmir? 2) What do the Palestinians get out of the hezbollah's latest antics? No difference from Saddam hitting Israel with Scuds in the early 1990's if you ask me, that is, worse than nothing because there will be a political price to pay down the road. And dearly the Palestinians will pay (So interestingly while Zneters are cheering the Hezbollah for allegely "standing up for the Palestinians" when rockets fall on Israel, the PA is a lot more cautious in expressing their enthusiasm) In the 1990's you were probably telling people Saddam was the only one standing up for the Palestinians too if you were around(I was too young to know anything about politics then) According to you it is likely the Arabs want to live under some medieval religious fascism because they are muslims. If that is the case 1) Why do you insist Israel should give Palestinians the right to return, so that the Jews would become an oppressed minotrity in a short time and be subjected to Sharia? Based on your own scenario you are essentially condemning the Israeli for not consenting to suicide. Leila on the other hand holds out this rosy vision of "multi-cultural" non zionist Israel. While hopelessly naive she at least makes some logical sense.Your premise is exactly opposite to hers if you haven't realized. 2)It may be the right of "Muslims" to choose to live under bin-Laden but why do you think they have the right to impose their medieval beliefs on non muslims and moderates alike? Like Leila says, the ME is not monolithic. Since oppression is oppression, why should I as a non Arab and non Jew worry about Israeli Palestinians not allowed to own land but ignoring Arabs mass murdering the kurds, enslaving blacks and berbers, or Muslims oppressing other muslisms and non muslim minorities with massacres, torture and executions? Unlike you, I base my arguments on universal justice, I don't believe people "choose" to be oppressed volunatarily just because of their race or religion. To say otherwise, like you do, is racist. Iranian leftists supported the Mullahs in Iran in 1979, they only realized their mistakes when they found themselves hanging on lamp posts( These people sounded remarkably like Leila) Deluded leftists today who claim the Hezbollah are "demonized" haven't learned from history.

Cyrano You and I are in FULL agreement there. Hezbollah and Hamas seem to be the only organisations consistently helping the Palestinian cause. I am uncomfortable with their ultimate motives, but now is now, and we are where we are - and we are in the middle of a brutal and aggressive assault upon Lebanese and Palestinians by Israel and the US. Let us not forget that Israel is not at all alone in this. The US is supplying arms to Israel as fast as they use them up, and also International political support at the UN.

let the arabs decide if they want to live under shari'a, arabs are regrouping under religion most likely because they feel threatened by the West. If there is change that will come up in the middle-east it will be from within the population. Victor, look at the extreme reaction of Israel in Lebanon, I cannot condemn the actions of Hizbollah when Israel is destroying Palestinian infrastructures with WMDs. Also Hizbollah seem to be the last resort of the Palestinians, (is there anyone else ?). Without anybody helping palestinians, do they have chances for survivals? With the recent bombing of Lebanon, Israel succeeded in maintening lebanese "poor", this suggest an intent of the west to maintain people into more poverty.. lets put palestinians first for a change..

Cyrano - After thinking a lot about this, I feel we should not confuse the Palestinian plight, a legitimate issue, with Hezbollah's support of that issue. Hezbollah has a higher goal. As an Iranian proxy, they are funded and supplied by those whose avowed objective is a new Islamic Empire based upon Shari'a. I'm not turning on you, but we should be careful about who we support and why. Politics are always interesting and always make for strange bedfellows at times. I have to admire Hezbollah's guts to stand up to Israel and the Dark One, but I have to fear the higher aims of their sponsors, as I commented in another thread. These sponsors have no love for either modern society nor leftist doctrine, perhaps even especially leftist doctrine as its advocates are often quite openly anti-organised religion in their teachings.

Bwong the soldier were arrested in Lebanon, this is not compatible with kidnapping..hizbollah appear to have been defending their country against excursionists and provocators.. Today i heard the most unbeleivable stuff on CNN, I heard that lebanese are irrational people who put bombs just to put bombs.. that is the explanation the military specialists gave! keir yes too many anomymous(es) becomes a problem.i am building a group of protestors in hamilton the 12th.

The Hezbollah have spent years building up in the border with tunnels and trenches for rocket lauchers. This means they have been planning for a show down with Israel for years. Chomsky's suggestion that this has something to do with the recent Israeli crack dwon in Gaza is absolute rubbish.Hence the whole idea Hezbollah somehow "stand up for the Palestinians" is also suspect.

Kelvin Yearwood wrote: "I'm afraid some conservative loose-cannon entity has snatched the body of the once radical Bwong." So are you saying there is a party line one must toe on the left? I am not interested in cheering for medieval religious fascists just because they happen to be against the U.S. You people keep saying Hezbollah are "resistance". That is a very strange definition of "resistance". Israel has withdrawn from Lebanon years ago and there has been formal cease fire and UN resolutions(to eventually disarm Hezbollah among other things) Hezbollah started the ball rolling again by crossing into Israel to kidnap soldiers and firing rockets into Israel. How was that "resistance"? They were alledgely "standing up for the Palestinians". But the Palestinians don't have any more to do with Lebanon than the Kashmirians. And I fail to see what the Palestinians get out of this. Maybe cyrano, Victor or Kelvin (the trinity) can expalain. Sorry should include Keir as well, but three sounds neater.

Kelvin Yearwood— I've noticed post-modern currents, or at least parallel thinking and vocabulary in the U.S. Military for some time (mostly relevant to decentralization of planning, and attention to constant transformation). I once heard a professor (teaching William Blake) mention the combination of a gangster and a Deconstructionist making an offer that you can neither understand nor refuse; very relevant to present matters, consider: Israeli Military Using Post-Structuralism as “Operational Theory” BTW, I would read your noting a “human consciousness… which lives in a perpetual state of myth-making,” as saying that human consciousness does not create myths as a subjective agent, but lives in a (national or world) state where the same old myths are perpetuated with shiny new facades—the state itself being also made of myths (a “state of myth-making”). (Some might say that we have always already been in a state of anarchy, not with regard to no hegemony, but where governments and police/military are both hired militia to protect the wealthy, and providers of just enough benefits for the poor to stave off rebellion: a modern day anarcho-feudalism where there is no real law and order but only rampant bribery and micro-wars. I personally see power as almost completely decentralized—beyond the centers even of human agents—centralized power is an emergent chimera).

Sorry Cyrano don't know where you got the idea, but you're quoting 'anonymous', not me. Could people writing as anonymous at least sign off with a pseudonym for the sake of clarity on these boards?

you wrote: BTW I'm afraid some conservative loose-cannon entity has snatched the body of the once radical Bwong.. I am trying to bring him to a demonstration in hamilton.. I think it be cool to meet him then.. Keir, IMO above all political discourse being said, palestinian do not deserve to be abandoned or condemned. innocence people request that.. i think this is requested by innocence people in lebanon,palestine and israel..here I say on behalf of innocence people who do not have a voice.

Cyrano - agreed - Hezbollah is indeed a resistance movement. It also employs guerilla tactics. And though the US killed two million Vietnamese, they ultimately won the war. The tactics of the guerillas fighting for Ho Chi Minh, who even the US in the end had to admit was a brilliant tactician, included not only the military end of war, but also the political end, which involves playing on the weaknesses of the American people who traditionally don't have the stomach or the patience for real enemies who can outlast them. Don't think Hezbollah is ignorant of this political tactic as well with the Empire's war-dog Israel. But in the end, they are all playing into the Empire's final game.

Posted by Kelvin Yearwood:

Anonymous said: "Myths are (supposed to be ) reflections of reality as percieved by people. No more hocus pocus than a  hypothesis claiming scientific truth."

Therefore there is simply no point in questioning Israeli US-client foreign policy with an Israeli citizen - the Israeli cultural myth of victimhood and self-defence in all it does is as valid as saying water boils at a certain temperature!

If an Israeli citizen says the land Israel occupied was empty, poorly maintained, populated by sub-humans unworthy of its latent wealth etc. this is, presumably, an acceptable myth-making exercise, as genuine as the litmus test.

BTW I'm afraid some conservative loose-cannon entity has snatched the body of the once radical Bwong. Considering the Palestinians are being hit in an escalated way by the Israelis, while Israel devastates the Lebanon under the state-terrorist coverall of the 'War on Terror', the US/UK/Israel axis-of-death hell-dogs clearly see a connection between Hizbollah and the Palestinian cause. Israel is performing its neo-con duties with Bush and Blair's gangster permission.

Concerning the infantilization of the US public consciousness, there has been little here said about the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Lebanese from their land - a particularly appalling crime with angry ramifications considering the history of what Israel has done with land that it has violently cleared. In consequence Bush and Blair have given their blessing to the violent displacement of hundreds of thousands in violation of the guiding principles of the UN commission on Human Rights. And if the buffer zone with an international force is established it will be established entirely on Lebanese land. Israel can, at the very worst, simply return to its own borders without censure, despite murdering hundreds and devastating the lives of hundreds of thousands.

But then if we embrace a postmodern idea of human consciousness as necessarily one which lives in a perpetual state of myth-making,  Israeli citizens and their neo-con benefactor states can consider this a blow against the 'axis of evil', the 'arc of extremism', the crescent of people who simply don't eat cucmber sandwiches on the lawn or have burgers and freedom fries "in an outlet near you"' or the 'curve of people you simply wouldn't invite back to meet mummy and daddy'.

 

hizbollah is a resistance born from the invasion of lebanon by israel. Hizbollah appears to have a common enemy with the palestinians, it is fighting aginst the opression of their people. Victor, . "There is another aspect of guerilla warfare that you should understand - both the French and the Dark One found this out the hard way in Vietnam" so far midle-eastern people are at disadvantage because they cannot hide or cover in the jungle. US tactics was also a guerilla warfare , when overwhelmed by the Vietnameses in the jungles ;the US used chemecal weapons. The US never hesitated to target populations.. the result was 2 million vietnameses death during the war and it was estimated another million died from contamination and other effects of that war over a span of 30 years.. This atrocity was merely stooped because outraged american people. Victor the powerful bombs made with depleted uranium used by Israel suggest a slow extermination..

Hezbollah by design fights a guerilla war. Your film demonstrates that. When people do not have the manpower or the technology of those in power, guerilla warfare is a very effective means to oppose those powers that be. There is another aspect of guerilla warfare that you should understand - both the French and the Dark One found this out the hard way in Vietnam. To be successful, the guerilla must rely upon the complete backing of the surrounding civilian population, drawing support from them in the way of food, shelter, money, medical assistance, etc. Also, the guerilla army is often composed of the surrounding population itself - people who share their ideals and their objectives and are willing to sacrifice all to attain victory. These are usually oppressed people who have no other way to fight - neither politically, economically nor militarily. It's very important that this distinction be properly understood - Hezbollah, being a guerilla force, is not just supported by the civilian population - it is composed of the civilian population. In each area that Hezbollah operates, they have full-time soldiers, but also thousands of young men and women they can call upon at a moment's notice to take up arms, fight, and then melt back into the general population. It is a truly extraordinary way of fighting, depending not upon the money and power of national governments, and depending not upon subjection to a set of government/military/corporate leaders who no longer share your dreams, but depending upon the people themselves. In the case of Hezbollah, the Israeis are not fighting a foreign-based army that can be met on the battlefield and defeated through the traditional exercise of arms. They are fighting something much, much more dangerous, something that will not and cannot be defeated in spirit, something that has no real form or shape or substance which when hit scatters and melts away to reform elsewhere, something which lives forever. They are fighting the PEOPLE of that land. And they neither can, nor will attain lasting victory using military might. Using such means, they will only harden the resolve of these people to continue their fight.

Can you please tell us again what the hell does Hezbollah have to do with the Palestinians? It is not a Palestinian entity, nor does it represent the Lebanese government. Would you cheer them if they bomb India "in solidarity" with Muslims in Kashmir? And exactly how does this latest conflict help the Palestinians in any way? The Hezbollah loped about 3000 rockets into Israel.A lot of that landed in places like Hifer where there is a mixed Arab -Jewish population. If they have not killed as many Israeli civilians than the Israeli have Lebanese it is not for lack of trying. The Hezbollah are no heros. They are holding Lebanon hostage with their reckless actions.

behind the video is the reflect of a murderous technology that was provided by the US. Palestinians were not provided with such weapons and technologies, they were provided with starvation for innocence children. please tell us that Israel is not committing infanticide and atrocity when it is using weapons made with Depleted Uranium or it is using the same WMDs used by the americans in Iraq? See Depleted Uranium (DU) effects on populations, its kinda strange you dont want iranians or arabs to have nukes when you already use radioactive ones..

With the amounts of bombs used, look like you are contaminating, already nuking the population of Lebanon ...

Hezbolla is just a coward organization. Using innocence people for there use. The Lebanese should kick them out of there country.

In this video you can see hezbolla man take control on innocence Lebanese's home and launche rockets.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/B43E19CA-B17A-436D-A3F2-9E3F15A6907A/0/MissilesfromHouse.wmv

Opposite to the clain of hezbolla in this video you can see hezbolla launche rockets from inside the village Qana, The rocket launcher is running to hide inside a civilian house after the firing.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/11A0342E-ECB3-4F80-A282-D9A853CA48E1/0/qana.wmv

Some people live well being hypocrites

Paul: on mass infantilization, you provide me (as you have done in the past) with another reason to bring up Postman: "Everything in our background has prepared us to know and resist a prison when the gates begin to close around us.... But what if there are no cries of anguish to be heard? Who is prepared to take arms against a sea of amusements? To whom do we complain, and when, and in what tone of voice, when serious discourse dissolves into giggles? What is the antidote to a culture's being drained by laughter?" ---Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death (1985)

Direct action against commercials and other legal mindcontroll ! 

As for myth. The people of god and the last prophet and the saviour. The real heroes behind these myths would likely applaud a deconstruction of those terrible towers built on their tombs.

Dispelling myth is impossible, taking myth back is practical solidarity.

Myths are (supposed to be ) reflections of reality as percieved by people. No more hocus pocus than a  hypothesis claiming scientific truth.

Evil men do evil things , regardless what good they blame as their inspiration. Einsteins relation to the nuclear bomb goes same way. 

Posted by Kelvin Yearwood

Anonymous - I believe one of the major projects of the left is exactly to rescue human history from myth, including the radical supra-nationalist thoughts of Martin Luther King which cannot be contained within a sanitised US elite narrative.

The infantilisation of consciousness; the corporate-monopolist, elite project of containing thought and steering it along confused, angry desperate and naive routes, is precisely one of the tactics of our elite enemies and the opportunistic careerists who become their willing minions. Consciousnesses in thrall of myth are in a constant explosive tension with reality which will not bend to them resulting in intensified irrational and violent reactions.

Liberation means dispelling myth - the mind-forged manicals so beloved of the corporate media.

 

 

I hope that this Rudy-caracter understands that by equalling anti-zionism with anti-semitism, he makes of Israel a state based on race.

His level of discussion is the reason for violence. Wether the rightwinger in question be a conservative christian, shia, or atheist. Were the words loose their meaning the guns talk.

 Cyrano wrote

"King was moved "to break [his] silence" on Vietnam by "allegiances and loyalties which are broader and deeper than nationalism."

An analysis of the King and Kennedy situation leads to analysis of conspiracy. Trumans fears come true.

Please don`t comment more on King. He is allready lost in myth.

Rudy,(thats ennoying) I dlike to know when you'll start thinking by yourself and work for the coomon good of people in general... paul here is a cartoon on the great disconnect affecting american politics.. not that it is really amusing because such disconnect can affect a lot of people.

If you claim that to be an anti-zionist is not the same as being anti-jewish, anti-semitic, and to be a bigot, then you truely, and sadly do not know the true meaning of zionsim. Some of you will undoubtedly trot out a sect of orthadox who state they are presently against Israel, and you will construe that as meaning even Jews are anti-zionist in the only sense of the word you know - which is strange because that means socialists are inherently agreeing with religion - but that still doesn't negate that you are you are Anti-Jewish by arguing against Israel in this war with Hezbollah, Hamas, the PLO, Islamic Jhihad, Syria, Iran who have never declared peace, or any other predominately Arab and/or Muslim country that has been in a hot or cold war with Israel since 1948, . You are. Learn about zionism and stop pigeon holing it. The premise of your arguement is faulty. The fact remains this war has nothing to do with the Palestinians. They could have had their own state going back to the pre-cursor of the Belfor Declaration, the Peel Report. They could have had their own state again in 1947 but the Arab countries refused, choosing instead to start a war. The Palestinians could have had their own state in 1967 but the Arabs again wouldn't give it to them. And they could have had their own state every day since if the PLO hadn't decided in 1965 they were going to form with the explicit goal of killing every Jew from Jerusalem to the Mediterranean. This war exists for the reason you won't acknowledge and for what precisely makes you anti-Jewish. This war exists because Israel's neighbors, going back over 58 years, doesn't think Jews should be allowed to live in the Middle East. If you want to stop this war, simply stop Israel's neighbors from promoting the wiping out of Jews on their tv shows, in their newspapers, in their mosques, and in their political speeches. Israel isn't doing anything to provoke Syria or Iran or Algeria or Sudan or Malaysia or Iraq or any of the others. It's funny - you will scream "Israel is fascist!" in the same manner you scream about zionism. You don't know the meaning either word. Even more telling is that you fail to acknowledge the historial fact that the Arab governments in WWII traveled to Germany and Italy to learn the fine art of fascist governing. Today's acts are the legacy of that political thought. Yet, you don't think fascism is truely worth fighting. It all leads me to conclude from the very outset, you're all a bunch of bigots.

this is becomeing more and more freakish..

thank you Paul, Martin Luther King was not stupid.. I nevr read what he had to say.. Some of you may recall the great civil rights leader Martin Luther King. Jr. speaking and writing in the middle and late 1960s about what he called "the triple evils that are interrelated": militarism, poverty, and racism. "I [can] never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettoes," King said, "without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today - my own government." King was moved "to break [his] silence" on Vietnam by "allegiances and loyalties which are broader and deeper than nationalism." His Christian-humanist values meant that he could not watch passively as "as we poison" the Vietnamese peoples' "water, as we kill a million acres of their crops," and "send them into the hospitals, with at least twenty casualties from American firepower for one 'Vietcong'-inflicted injury." The people of Indochina, King mused, must find Americans to be "strange liberators" as "we destroy...their... famil[ies], village[s],...land and...crops." he dare tell americans the truth..

Cyrano, thanks for sharing disgust; we need to act on our disgust of course.

Keir, yes racism is critical; I don't think it gets enough attention in discussion of U.S. foreign policy up through the invasion of Iraq and this current significantly U.S.-imposed nightmare. I was schooled in the reduction of everything to “color-blind” political-economy (boiling everything down to the perverse logic of capitalism-imperialism) but we miss a lot that matters by leaving out that nasty little race issue (ask a returning US GI about the racism involved in the boot camp preceding deployment in Afghanistan or Iraq).

One thing in the American water that you don't have in reality-based Europe is loony tunes right-wing evangelical Christianity, which has a considerable number of Americans making perverse bedfellows with Israel out of biblical notions of Armageddon and Second Coming. There's a decent history of this in Andrew Bacevich's chilling book The New American Militarism (2004).

The first "Anonymous" – thank you for mentioning Isarel's open secret nuclear warhead stash; it gets too little attention. By the way I seem to recall old reports showing that Israel worked with the old South African apartheid state to help that lovely arch-racist regime develop nuclear weapons.

JD Casten is right to note that the American populace's take on Israel's response (which came with no small "green light" from the White House) is significantly better than that of the policymakers. This is generally the case in issue-specific polls on just about every issue, foreign or domestic.

And my guess would be that post-Qana polls (perhaps some have already been done…I haven't looked yet) will show (or are showing) more Americans (perhaps a majority or close) saying that Israel has gone too far. I can't turn on the radio lately without hearing about some new unimaginable atrocity against Lebanese civilians. JD Casten I do not think US has a monopoly on spiritual death.

Victor is correct in my opinion to advocate a new American Revolution. Four hundred and ten to eight sums up just how morally low the bi-partisan ship of imperial state has sunk.

Nobody addressed the mass infantilization issue (GE Television [NBC is owned by leading "defense" contractor General Electric]doing 10 minutes on butt augmentation while US ally Israel uses American money and WMD to butcher Lebanese children), but I will volunteer my strong sense (as yet without empirical verification) that infantalization is to some extent a conscious project on the part of certain people in dominant corporate (so-called "mainstream") media. No, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I think some of them know exactly what they're doing in ways that go beyond just trying to make money.

Rudy's comment is standard for him – a transparent attempt to spark an outraged response…the usual tactic. I used to fall for it.

To a Hezbollah-hating plastic surgeon, Paul's post might bring a beatific tear to a corner of their eye—unfortunately more people are “noble” that way, than Paul's way according to the polls he cites. At least the public is more divided than congress; it's quite disappointing that congress seems to feel the need for a united voice, when at least a divided voice—some measure of equivocation and hesitation before war—would seem the saner route (“representing” a diversity of perspectives, and some deliberation before going or not going gung-ho). I personally subscribe to a global democracy, however that might be measured, rather than just my local U.S.—at least you get a more diverse perspective that way; although a simple popular world vote might be too ideologically slanted one way or another, just as a “power” vote is. I'm not sure if Paul would see a spiritual death of the world too (there's always the local havens—like someone's living-room and their invited guests (for a seance)). It may be in poor taste to post this link on this blog entry; but it demonstrates, somewhat against “my” theories, that a few powerful elites have the power to accelerate change for the lives of many, through frugal convenience: Green Wal-Mart Chomsky noted in his Forum: “it is perhaps of some interest that the advocates of the claim that the [Israeli] Lobby determines US policy do not adopt the tactics implied: to put on ties and jackets, go to the corporate headquarters of Lockheed-Martin, Intel, Warren Buffett, ExxonMobil, etc., and politely explain to them something they failed to notice: that their interests are being harmed by a lobby that they utterly overwhelm in political and economic clout. I'd personally be relieved if I could believe the theories advanced. It would save an enormous amount of effort: endless talks, writing, participation in organizing efforts, etc. But somehow those alternative tactics do not seem appropriate. Why?” This quote has given me some considerable pause for thought. Why such a disconnect between public, press, politicians, and even lobbyist interests on certain issues? Maybe events are happening too fast for the alignment of forces.

The disconnect Paul mentionned about Congress can also be seen with the military recent claim to Congress that Iraq is on the edge of Civil war.. These people need to wake-up; the Civil War begun as soon as the american occupied Iraq. And there is no sign of reparations in sight..

Rudy , if you are concerned about saving life, why don't you tell the extremist israeli terrorist-regime to negotiate peace? At the very least arabs seem to be willing to negotiate..

Paul, et al -We often point fingers at the US Administration when we talk about affairs of the Dark Empire. But we must always keep in mind that the President is only one dark force among many in the Empire. Another is the US Congress. It consistently approves and even promotes foreign activies that a decent person would never consider if they truly knew the real reasons behind them. And a third is the people of the Dark Empire itself. Not all of them obviously, but the unthinking, trained monkey ones - the ones who are incessantly manipulated by the corporate media and grow fat on MacDonald's Big Macs. They truly believe that the Empire is under constant threat - because of its beneficent activities in the world - because of its "freedom" - because of its wealth. They believe that the Empire would never do anything evil. They believe the Empire is just and caring and freedom-loving and misunderstood. This is what the Congress and the President and his minions of course want them to believe - and they do, with all their hearts. Afourth is the corporate moguls who sit behind the scenes and expect a return on the investment they make in politics. A fifth, and perhaps least known and understood force behind everything, are the central bankers, the Fed, who in concert with other central banks in the UK, Europe and Asia, collude are the TRUE bastards pulling the strings connected to both governments and corporate powers.

I am now beyond disappointed in my country. I am angry. I'm really pissed off. This is a game I refuse to play - at least on their terms. It's time for a new game. It's time for a new country. It's time to change the Contstitution. Its time to change the Government. Its tiume to change Corporate laws. And its especially time to change the monetary system.

At least Nazi Germany was honest about its aims.

Victor
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3254488777215293198

 

Rudy, perhaps he's not so concerned, because he and others have heard this idiotic drivel before from apologists for the aparthied colonial settler state before. Given the fact , that thru massive economic and military aid, great power agreements, and finally, 200+ nuclear weapons at it's disposal, Hizbollah, and the Arab states have no ability to "kill all the Jews"

 

Nice to see that the propaganda model works so well for folks such as yourself, Rudy

Ah yes, the socialist protector of the downtrodden - except the downtrodden Jews. Why aren't you concerned that the goal of Hezbollah's attack, and Syrian and Iranian support, is to kill all the Jews? Why aren't you concerned about the Iranian President's comments about wiping Israel off the face of the earth? I can only assume it is because you harbor latent anti-semitic feelings that are hidden behind the guise of "progressive" politics.

Keir : What are they putting in the water in the States these days? The US land and congress having a drought..

Paul, hard to face, but you do seem right about this. But do you think it's infantilization or deeply embedded racism? Lebanese---shit, anyone is widely thought to be appropriate fodder for US-made Israeli ammunition in the States. See some of the comments here at Leila's and Chomsky's boards, where people are making long-winded defenses of the most base racism imaginable. That 410 to 8 number is extraordinary. Nauseating. Not that it makes a dime's worth of difference, but here in The Hague and around I haven't encountered anyone willing to take up the cause of Israel's "right to defend itself from terror" by butchering the people and environment of Lebanon. It's like it's not necessary to bring up here because it's so damn obvious. What are they putting in the water in the States these days?

The [U.S.] Senate,” Stephen Zunes notes, “passed a similar resolution defending the Israeli attack earlier in the week by a voice vote, but included a clause that ‘urges all sides to protect innocent civilian life and infrastructure.' By contrast, the House version omits this section and even praises Israel for ‘minimizing civilian loss,' despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Paul I share your disgust..