Libya, the Left, and Losing Our Way; Reflections on Empire, Inequality, and “Operation Odyssey Dawn”
Iowa City, IA, Tuesday, March 29, 2011. Beneath the often vituperative intra-left debate over whether or not to support any aspect of the Obama administration’s intervention in Libya and what the consequences of that intervention will be, lay a fundamental question: why did Obama go to cruise missile war? What did the White House hope to achieve? What’s it all about? The administration claims that it merely seeks to protect the democratic rebels and the broad populace against the vengeful dictator Muammar Gadaffi. It’s a humanitarian mission, consistent the United States’ and the West’s supposed longstanding democratic ideals, according to the official White House line.
The knee-jerk, almost self-caricaturing counter from some sides of the so-called radical left says that it’s all about Washington’ desire to grab Libya’s oil by ousting the unsavory but nonetheless anti-imperialist and objectively progressive Muammar Gadaffi in the deceptive name of humanitarian intervention and democracy. This, some on the “radical left” argue, is George W. Bush and Afghanistan and Iraq all over again, with Gadaffi standing in for Saddam Hussein and the Taliban as the bad guy and the Libyan rebels standing in for the Northern Coalition and Ahmad Chalabi as props to justify another long American colonial war of imperial occupation.
My own position, significantly influenced by the reflections of the two leading left intellectuals on U.S. policy in the Middle East (Gilbert Achcar and Noam Chomsky) is consistent with neither side of this difference.
Too Cynical to Discuss
Washington’s claims of humanitarian concern should be taken with more than a grain of salt, of course. Beyond the fact that “Operation Odyssey Dawn” (OOD) carries its own deadly potential for civilian heath and democracy inside Libya, how seriously are we supposed to take the administration’s declared motives as Uncle Sam continues to massively fund and equip oppressive regimes across the region and world? What about the millions living under the oppressive rule of sadistic autocrats across Africa and in, for example, the key U.S. ally, Saudi Arabia, home to perhaps the world’s single most reactionary government? The United States is not moving towards targeted bombings and no-fly zones to protect human rights and democracy and discipline oppressors in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Palestine, Israel, Guatemala, Columbia, Honduras, or Yemen, where the U.S.-supported president Ali Abdullah Seleh has recently butchered and maimed hundreds of protestors. The American military and financial aid keeps flowing to authoritarian and unjust rulers in these and numerous other U.S.-backed states. Those rulers and their cronies are not subjected to travel bans and asset freezes and Western-led prosecution for crimes against humanity. They continue to receive official designation as U.S. allies in the “war on terror.” It is hard to believe that a new imperial White House that supported a right wing coup in Honduras (during and since June of 2009) and only reluctantly and belatedly came to offer qualified support for the historic democracy uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt has suddenly been converted into a heroic defender of popular governance and human rights in Libya. As Noam Chomsky recently told me in response to an e-mail inquiry, “the humanitarian talk is too cynical even to discuss.”
Consistent with that judgment, the left U.S. foreign policy critic Phyllis Bennis has noted a dark irony behind many Americans’ support of the Libyan action. That support was premised on the notion that Gaddafi’s successful crushing of his opposition “would send a devastating message to other Arab dictators: Use enough military force and you will keep your job.” Things are working out quite differently, with the American intervention seeming to feed top-down repression, not bottom up rebellion in the Middle East. As Bennis observes:
“Instead, it turns out that just the opposite may be the result: It was after the UN passed its no-fly zone and use-of-force resolution, and just as US, British, French and other warplanes and warships launched their attacks against Libya, that other Arab regimes escalated their crack-down on their own democratic movements….In Yemen, 52 unarmed protesters were killed and more than 200 wounded on Friday [March by forces of the US-backed and US-armed government of Ali Abdullah Saleh. It was the bloodiest day of the month-long Yemeni uprising...Similarly in US-allied Bahrain, home of the US Navy's Fifth Fleet, at least 13 civilians have been killed by government forces. Since the March 15 arrival of 1,500 foreign troops from Saudi Arabia and the UAE, brought in to protect the absolute power of the king of Bahrain, 63 people have been reported missing.”
This is contrary to one argument Obama made for his intervention in a nationally televised address to the American people last night (I am writing on the morning of Tuesday, March 29, 2011). In that address, Obama claimed that failure to intervene would have threatened the peaceful transitions in Egypt and Tunisia, as thousands of Libyan refugees poured across their borders, while other dictators would conclude that “violence is the best strategy to cling to power.” A cynical rationale, I think.
At the same time, there’s no doubt that oil is the top U.S. consideration in the region. For more than six decades, the Middle East and North Africa have figured prominently in the military and geo-political calculations of the U.S. foreign policy establishment and American presidents for one reason alone: the region is the world’s petroleum energy heartland and control of its vast oil reserves is the single greatest economic and strategic prize in the world capitalist economic and political system. As American post-WWII planners understood quite well, U.S. control over Middle Eastern oil producers gave Washington political-economic “veto power” (George Kennan’s term) over its leading industrial competitors in Europe and Japan. This has been the primary U.S. concern in the region since the 1940s and we can be sure that OOD is all about oil.
Six Reasons to Question the Reflexive “Radical” Response
There are, to be sure, analogies to Washington ’s epic Iraq invasion, also launched on March 19th. Obama, like George W. Bush, is pushing regime change in the deceptive name of democracy in a nation that poses no clear or imminent danger to the United States (The “no-fly zone,” Chomsky notes, was “from the first…a cover for participation in the rebellion”). Obama has further mimicked Bush on Hussein by claiming that Gadaffi has “a large stockpile of chemical weapons” – by playing the “weapons of mass destruction” (WMD) card.
But the reflexive “radical” analysis outlined in the second paragraph of this essay is less than impressive for six basic reasons. First, the Libyan intervention is not primarily a US operation. As Chomsky told me, “It’s a French and British affair, primarily, with virtually no international support, incidentally, in the region or beyond.” The older colonial powers have led the way and the U.S. was “dragged in reluctantly,” trying to “move into the background” at a rapid pace - no doubt part of why Obama did not feel compelled to obtain authorization to use force from the U.S. Congress [1]. There’s no prolonged U.S. occupation being planned, of course.
Second, the United States stayed with Gaddafi “until the last minute” (Chomsky) – very different than its long-term demonization of evil Saddam Hussein starting in 1990 (when the formerly obedient dictator defied Washington by invading Kuwait) and lasting through Saddam’s execution in 2006.
Third, the notion of there being something progressive and anti-imperial about Gadaffi is childish nonsense. After a long and bizarre dictatorial career that (beneath his deceptive claims to be advancing a socialist utopia and direct democracy for “the Masses”) earned him a richly deserved reputation for madness within and beyond the Arab world, Gadaffi dropped all leftist pretensions to re-open the Libyan economy to Western corporations as the Cold War came to a finish. When Washington invaded Iraq eight years ago in the name of protecting the world from Saddam’s WMD, the prolific and brilliant Left Middle East and imperialism scholar Gilbert Achcar notes, “Gaddafi, worried that he might be next, implemented a sudden and surprising turnabout in foreign policy, earning himself a spectacular upgrade from the status of ‘rogue state’ to that of close collaborator of Western states. A collaborator in particular of the United States, which he helped in its so-called war on terror, and Italy, for which he did the dirty job of turning back would-be immigrants trying to get from Africa to Europe.” By this time and ever since, the Gadaffi dictatorship had lost the last shreds of any legitimate claim it might have held to being progressive and anti-imperial. The dictator responded to the rise of democratic protest (inspired by the wave of Middle Eastern rebellion that started in adjacent Tunisia) with raving promises to slaughter those who questioned his rule, claiming that they had been “turned into drug addicts by Al Qaeda” – this after denouncing the Tunisian people for overthrowing their dictator Ben Ali, who Gadaffi called “the best ruler” the Tunisians would ever have. (Gilbert Achcar, “Libyan Developments,” ZNet, March 19, 2011). “The idea that Western powers are intervening in Libya because they want to topple a regime hostile to their interests is just preposterous,” Achcar rightly notes.
Fourth, Libyan oil is already under the control of the West. As Achcar notes, “the whole range of Western oil and gas companies is active in Libya: Italy's ENI, Germany's Wintershall, Britain's BP, France's Total and GDF Suez, US companies ConocoPhillips, Hess, and Occidental, British-Dutch Shell, Spain's Repsol, Canada's Suncor, Norway's Statoil, etc.” (Gilbert Achcar, “ Libya : A Legitimate and Necessary Debate from an Anti-Imperialist Perspective,” ZNet, March 25, 2011). This and the fact that Gaddafi had already decisively surrendered to Western business and the American Empire makes the notion that the U.S. and the West are trying to destroy some sort of anti-imperial regime and grab the oil – though France probably hopes to increase its currently small share of Libya’s reserves by playing a leading role in the intervention – look more than a little silly.
Fifth, the opposition to Gadaffi within Libya is not really analogous to the Northern Alliance thugs or the ridiculous Amahd Chalabi. It is largely the same as the other popular uprisings across the region. Its composition is very similar to the heterogeneous opposition coalitions that have emerged to challenge and overthrow dictators and autocrats in the Middle East in early 2011. And what “unites all the disparate forces,” Achcar observes, “is a rejection of the dictatorship and a longing for democracy and human rights.”
Sixth, it is certainly the case that the Western intervention stopped a likely massacre in Benghazi, saving the lives of thousands and perhaps tens of thousands Gadaffi had essentially promised to destroy. It is very, very difficult to imagine any other way those lives could have been preserved short of intervention by the imperial, fake-humanitarian, oil-addicted, parasitic, and racist West.
Of course the Western intervention isn’t actually primarily about saving those lives. As the left socialist Achcar notes, it’s about oil. More specifically, it’s about preventing a massacre that would have compelled the West to have imposed an embargo on Libyan oil in a time when oil prices are already quite high (primarily for structural reasons), feeding an ongoing epic capitalist recession that is fueling significant austerity and massive popular anti-austerity rebellion in the West itself as well as around the world. The last thing Obama wants as he approaches the 2012 election is a re-deepened economic crisis. At the same time, the White House is certainly aware that, as Chomsky told me, “a massacre in Benghazi would have been blamed on Washington, something they didn’t want to face.” Think like Obama from a realpolitik perspective on the potential deadly political consequences of letting Gadaffi move forward with a massacre: significant global and Western public outrage over standing to the side + a worsened economic situation exacerbated by an inevitable embargo = a no-brainer self-interested equation for “humanitarian intervention.”
Some U.S. Web “radicals” (their self-designation often reflects confusion between [a] stridency and cynicism of rhetoric and [b] depth of analysis/ knowledge) are uncomfortable with the notion that any U.S. and Western military intervention in what we used to call the Third World might happen to have a positive humanitarian impact in one instance. They are afraid that their core identity as bad-ass, hard-core enemies of Empire (and of Obama)will be compromised. Let me (an early radical-Left critic of Obama and the author of a book titled The Empire’s New Clothes: Barack Obama in the Real World of Power) assure these comrades that acknowledging this is in no way to go soft on Washington or the current administration and its commitment to the petro-imperial project. The analysis presented in this essay is as cynical, radical, and power-centered as any hard core leftist could want.
Empire and Inequality: Mass Diversion
My desire to get into a finger-pointing match with “progressives” who either eagerly support or stridently denounce (in often frenzied and hysterical terms) Obama’s Libya policy is inhibited to no small degree by my sense that the imperial extravaganza includes a standard “wag the dog” aspect in the hands of America ’s dominant Orwellian mass war and entertainment media. OOD has helped divert public attention from at least three critical and ongoing policy and political issues: the epic state-capitalist assault on public sector workers, the poor, social protection, organized labor, and working people more generally and the remarkable popular rebellion against that assault within and beyond Madison, Wisconsin; the equally epic nuclear disaster in Japan and the lethal implications of aging and revamped nuclear power operations (horrifying epitomes of the underlying and very possibly exterminst irrationality of the capitalist profits system) within and beyond the United States, where an old, and accident-prone nuclear plant (Indian Point, home to 2 of the nation’s 105 currently operating nuclear power reactors) is located just 30 miles north of the world’s financial capital, New York City; (3) the counter-assault on democratic protests in U.S, sponsored regimes like (to name just three)Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain. Even as they steal vast, desperately needed public resources away from the real and potential meeting of social needs and help distribute wealth upwards (to “defense” contractors like Boeing, Raytheon, and other elite, high-tech corporate interests) at home moreover, imperial military campaigns and the bloodlust they reflect and promote are great authoritarian populace-diverters and domestic democracy-destroyers – all too consistent with the warnings of American Founding Father James Madison, who observed that “The fetters imposed on liberty at home have ever been forged out of the weapons for defense against real, pretended, or imaginary dangers abroad.”
Losing Our Way
A recent Huffington Post item reports that “In the opening days of the assault on Libya, the United States and the United Kingdom launched a barrage of at least 161 Tomahawk cruise missiles to flatten Muammar Gadhafi's air defenses and pave the way for coalition aircraft….In fiscal terms, at a time when Congress is fighting over every dollar, the cruise missile show of military might was an expenditure of nearly a quarter of a billion dollars. Each missile cost $1.41 million, close to three times the cost listed on the Navy's website…Raytheon Corp. is the manufacturer of the Tomahawk Block IV, a low-flying missile that travels at 550 miles per hour. During a decade of war in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya, the Pentagon has increasingly relied on the Tomahawk. A year ago, Raytheon boasted of its 2,000th Block IV delivery to the Navy.” (See Sharon Weinberger, “Cruise Missiles: The One Million Dollar Weapon,” Huffpost Business (March 25, 2011) at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
This is a question I hope somebody will raise tonight as Obama attends a $30, 800 per-plate Democratic Party dinner in Harlem ’s gentrified up-scale Red Rooster Restaurant. As reporter James Ford notes, “the president will headline a big fundraiser in Harlem . Big, that is, in money, but not attendance. The Red Rooster Restaurant will have only 49 patrons for dinner, but those few customers are expected to raise $1.5 million….Thousands of supporters of -- and probably at least a few demonstrators against -- the president are expected to line the streets outside of the new, gourmet restaurant.” (James Ford, “President Obama’s Visit to NYC,” Pix 11,http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-
Perhaps the selected diner cadre will include an official from Raytheon. After the newly inaugurated Obama declared he would not appoint any lobbyists to government, his pick for second in command – charged with overseeing acquisitions – at the Pentagon was William Lynn, a former Raytheon lobbyist.
The dining club will certainly not include the former New York Times columnist Bob Herbert, who recently wrote the following in his very last Times column:
“So here we are pouring shiploads of cash into yet another war, this time in Libya, while simultaneously demolishing school budgets, closing libraries, laying off teachers and police officers, and generally letting the bottom fall out of the quality of life here at home.”
“Welcome to America in the second decade of the 21st century. An army of long-term unemployed workers is spread across the land, the human fallout from the Great Recession and long years of misguided economic policies. Optimism is in short supply. The few jobs now being created too often pay a pittance, not nearly enough to pry open the doors to a middle-class standard of living.” “The U.S. has not just misplaced its priorities. When the most powerful country ever to inhabit the earth finds it so easy to plunge into the horror of warfare but almost impossible to find adequate work for its people or to properly educate its young, it has lost its way entirely. “
“Nearly 14 million Americans are jobless and the outlook for many of them is grim. Since there is just one job available for every five individuals looking for work, four of the five are out of luck. Instead of a land of opportunity, the U.S. is increasingly becoming a place of limited expectations.”
“Overwhelming imbalances in wealth and income inevitably result in enormous imbalances of political power. So the corporations and the very wealthy continue to do well. The employment crisis never gets addressed. The wars never end. And nation-building never gets a foothold here at home.”
“New ideas and new leadership have seldom been more urgently needed. “
“This is my last column for The New York Times after an exhilarating, nearly 18-year run. I’m off to write a book and expand my efforts on behalf of working people, the poor and others who are struggling in our society. My thanks to all the readers who have been so kind to me over the years. I can be reached going forward at bobherbert88@gmail.com.” (B. Herbert, “Losing Our Way,” NYT, March 25, 2011)
Paul Street (www.paulstreet.org)is the author of many articles, chapters, speeches, and books, including Empire and Inequality: America and the World Since 9/11 (Boulder, CO: Paradigm, 2008); Racial Oppression in the Global Metropolis (New York: Rowman & Littlefield, 2007; Segregated Schools: Educational Apartheid in the Post-Civil Rights Era (New York: Routledge, 2005); Barack Obama and the Future of American Politics (Boulder, CO: Paradigm, 2008); The Empire’s New Clothes: Barack Obama in the Real World of Power (Boulder, CO: Paradigm, 2010); and (co-authored with Anthony DiMaggio, Crashing the Tea Party: Mass Media and the Campaign to Remake American Politics (Boulder, CO: Paradigm, May 2011). Street can be reached at paulstreet99@yahoo.com
ENDNOTE
1 In 2007, candidate Obama was asked the following question when it was feared that the United States was going to attack Iran : Under what circumstances would the president have the constitutional authority to bomb Iran without first seeking authorization from Congress? His answer: “The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation. As Commander-in-Chief, the President does have a duty to protect and defend the United States . In instances of self-defense, the President would be within his constitutional authority to act before advising Congress or seeking its consent. History has shown us time and again, however, that military action is most successful when it is authorized and supported by the Legislative branch.” Essentially, Obama said that the president had the authority to act first and seek approval later if there were an imminent threat to the security of the United States and that the president could not order a military attack without the approval of the Congress if a threat to the United States was not imminent. Both statements were accurate but neither applies the current situation in Libya . They have pretty much disappeared down the Orwellian memory hole as far as many of Obama’s liberal and centrist supporters are concerned. Many of those supporters would likely be complaining about constitutional violations if the Libya venture was being conducted by a President McCain. Likewise, many Republicans would be muzzling the constitutional concerns they are currently voicing if one of their party currently held the title of Commander in Chief. Such is the moral and intellectual level and situational politics of partisan identity and behavior within and beyond Washington.




Complexifying
By Jones, David at Mar 31, 2011 16:14 PM
The broad view in my opinion, is that the empire is flailing, is in dissarray on many fronts, and any thinking leftist should want to heighten those contradictions , spotlight them, and force others to confront their misperceptions about the hegemony of the global order.
In answer to David Greens question about left support for Gaddafi, unfortunately Chavez is a pretty good example along with certain Lenninists.
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Straw men and women
By Green, David at Mar 30, 2011 19:08 PM
Paul, who is saying this?
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Some extremely rational and objective thoughts on Libya by Chris
By Green, Chris at Mar 30, 2011 14:23 PM
While some people might be too rigid in unwillingness to accept some of the legitimacy of the attack on Libya, I think it is very healthy to be extremely sceptical of the whole operation. It is self-righteous, silly and melodramtic for pro-war leftists to start yelling that sceptics of the operations are "complicit" in Qadhafi's crimes or have "blood on their hands." I'm a little upset with Chomsky being so relatively silent about this. His guidance on this issue has been sorely needed.
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oil embargo not an option?
By Emersberger, Joe at Mar 30, 2011 13:45 PM
You wrote
"First, the Libyan intervention is not primarily a US operation".
I agree.
"Second, the United States stayed with Gaddafi “until the last minute”
I agree
"Third, the notion of there being something progressive and anti-imperial about Gadaffi is childish nonsense. "
I strongly agree.
"Fourth, Libyan oil is already under the control of the West."
True.
"Fifth, the opposition to Gadaffi within Libya is not really analogous to the Northern Alliance thugs or the ridiculous Ahmad Chalabi. "
True but could easily change the longer and more deeply the West stays involved.
"Sixth, it is certainly the case that the Western intervention stopped a likely massacre in Benghazi."
True, though the scale of the bloodshed is very uncertain as you basicaly concede. Now that the massacre has been averted, do you still support the West's ongoing military intervention? What do you consider to be the costs of the intervention? Your essay didn't really address the costs of the intervention - "collateral damage", the coopting of the Libyan opposition, prolongng a civil war but (I think most importantly) also using the "good war" pretext to justify criminal aggression down the road - Iran being a very likely target. Remember how the "good war" that threw Iraq out of Kuwait was used?
You wrote
"It is very, very difficult to imagine any other way those lives could have been preserved short of intervention by the imperial, fake-humanitarian, oil-addicted, parasitic, and racist West.
What about removing western support for all the other dictators in region at this very moment when they are wobbling very badly despite receiving western support? How could the falling dominoes fail to knock over Gaddafi?
What about making a credible threat of an oil embargo and other measures against Gaddafi if he did not agree to enter into serious negotiations? The West, you and others argue, woudln't want to do that because it would threaten their austerity measures at home. All the more reason for the reason for the left to advocate it it seems to me.
Moreover, even without any ecomnomic worries the, West has very little incentive to pursue non-military approaches to the situation in Libya. To an extent this is probably reflexive as much as it is cynical. The US relief effort in Haiti - where there was no war - was deeply, proposterously militarized as was the response to Katrina at home. The other wester powers share the same outlet to a far greater extent than is often acknowledged.
Lastly, I think you and others underestimet the ability of the corporate media to make large scale masscares and humaitarian tragedies disappear if they really want them to. See how often Iraq's 4 million refugess are discussed among numerous other examples.
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Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Grinder, Matt at Mar 30, 2011 15:22 PM
>"It is very, very difficult to imagine any other way those lives could have been preserved >short of intervention by the imperial, fake-humanitarian, oil-addicted, parasitic, and racist West.
>What about removing western support for all the other dictators in region at this very moment >when they are wobbling very badly despite receiving western support? How could the falling >dominoes fail to knock over Gaddafi?
HOw would this stop a massacre that was days away? Quadaffi wants to hold onto power, even if the US gave very strong indications that it would not support him by doing as you say, why would this stop him from killing a bunch of people and continue to be a dictator? He was a dictator without US support for a long time, he doesn't need it to be in charge.
>What about making a credible threat of an oil embargo and other measures against Gaddafi if >he did not agree to enter into serious negotiations? The West, you and others argue, woudln't >want to do that because it would threaten their austerity measures at home. All the more reason >for the reason for the left to advocate it it seems to me.
Yes maybe we should advocate it. But how would it prevent a massacre days away? He could wait it out and cling to power still.
>Moreover, even without any ecomnomic worries the, West has very little incentive to pursue non->military approaches to the situation in Libya. To an extent this is probably reflexive as much as it >is cynical. The US relief effort in Haiti - where there was no war - was deeply, >proposterously militarized as was the response to Katrina at home. The other wester powers >share the same outlet to a far greater extent than is often acknowledged.
I don't see how any non military measures could have prevented a massacre in this case?
>Lastly, I think you and others underestimet the ability of the corporate media to make large scale >masscares and humaitarian tragedies disappear if they really want them to. See how often >Iraq's 4 million refugess are discussed among numerous other examples.
Sure, that's true. My guess is that it was an option that the US had, ignore it. But they decided not to. Was that the best option for thier interests? Who knows? Elites are not gods, they can't predict the future.
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Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Emersberger, Joe at Mar 30, 2011 16:52 PM
A few aims get conflated in this discussion
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Preventing the massacre in Benghazi that ways days (or hours away)
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Preventing Gaddafi from clinging to power
The case for military intervention for aim #1 seems the most reasonable because of the extremely short time frame involved. However, that massacre has now been averted – whatever the cost in lives would have been, and however it compares to “collateral damage” and all the other costs of western intervention that I mentioned above. Do we still support the West’s ongoing attacks?Achieving aim # 1 without resorting to bombing would have required a credible threat of sanctions on Gaddafi’s regime – i.e. an oil embargo. That could have been done very quickly.
You say
“But how would it prevent a massacre days away? He could wait it out and cling to power still.”
First, if non military measures were tried and failed then the case for intervention would be much stronger. Achcar and Paul are saying the West would not even want to do an embargo AFTER a massacre. Therefore there certainly was no credible threat of one beforehand.
Second, you shifting to aim number 2 - driving Gaddafi from power. For that aim the other measure I mentioned –removing support from dictators in the region is the way to go. Sure, dictators can survive without western support for a long time – with great difficulty – but at this point in history they are having a very hard surviving EVEN WITH western support.
Third, the consequences of western bombing extend far beyond what happened or would have happened in Benghazi during the day or days Gaddafi’s forces would have attacked – and far beyond Libya.
Our eiltes are not – as you say – “Gods”. They not at all omnipotent – or even competent much of the time – but they have an immense destructive capacity. See Iraq – not just since 2003 but since 1990 when a “good war” drove Husesein out of Kuwait. The burden of proof is on those who support the West’s use of violence.
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Re: Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Grinder, Matt at Mar 30, 2011 20:36 PM
Yes, those are seperate, but related points.
>The case for military intervention for aim #1 seems the most reasonable because of the extremely short time frame involved. However, that massacre has now been averted – whatever the cost in lives would have been, and however it compares to “collateral damage” and all the other costs of >western intervention that I mentioned above.
Sure how can we know for sure? A reasonable guess would put it at thousands or maybe tens of thousands if the massacre had happened. How many will die now is impossible to predict. I hope it's low. A massacre might still happen, Quadaffi might win, or the rebels might massacre people. Poor Libyans...
>Do we still support the West’s ongoing attacks?
I guess I do if they are only on tanks and such things. Though there might be a reason I don't see to oppose strikes on tanks. But "support" is a loaded word, I do not support NATO implementing the no fly zone, I would rather some other group (south american pilots, maybe)? Be given the resources to accomplish the tasks that cared about lives being saved, if this were possible.
>Achieving aim # 1 without resorting to bombing would have required a credible threat of sanctions on Gaddafi’s regime – i.e. an oil embargo. That could have been done very quickly.
I don't see how that could have worked, sorry. Why would he care enough about that to stay his hand in killing thousands?
>First, if non military measures were tried and failed then the case for intervention would be much stronger. Achcar and Paul are saying the West would not even want to do an embargo AFTER a massacre. Therefore there certainly was no credible threat of one beforehand.
Try it by all means, sure. BUt I don't see how it would have worked. Again why would he care? He's a dictator, seems to like being in charge, and seems nuts to boot.
>Second, you shifting to aim number 2 - driving Gaddafi from power. For that aim the other measure I mentioned –removing support from dictators in the region is the way to go. Sure, dictators can survive without western support for a long time – with great difficulty – but at this point in history they are having a very hard surviving EVEN WITH western support.
I dont' see this shift. If you are saying that you were talking about somethign else and I thought you were talking about the massacre, OK, you know what your words intended. I certainly agree that we should try to get our elites to stop propping up dictators, - sure, that's a no brainer.
>Third, the consequences of western bombing extend far beyond what happened or would have happened in Benghazi during the day or days Gaddafi’s forces would have attacked – and far beyond Libya.
If it ends soon, and with a rebel victory, and NATO puts no troops on the ground, then what consequences do you forsee that are worse than a largish massacre?
>Our eiltes are not – as you say – “Gods”. They not at all omnipotent – or even competent much of the time – but they have an immense destructive capacity. See Iraq – not just since 2003 but since 1990 when a “good war” drove Husesein out of Kuwait. The burden of proof is on those who support the West’s use of violence.
I don't support their use of violence, I support a no fly zone implemented some other way, by people who care about lives. When I say that, please understand that I in no way liek no fly zones, in this case I don't see another way many lives could have been saved (not that that is what NATO cares about). I just hope, and think it's somewhat likely, that Libyans will get something out of this and also less lives will be lost. Maybe they won't which would be terrible, even more terrible than what's happening now.. They do have immense destructive capacity, but again, what consequences do you forsee?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Emersberger, Joe at Mar 30, 2011 21:36 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Grinder, Matt at Mar 31, 2011 02:38 AM
Suppose you're right, and a credible threat of oil wasn't used, obviously it should have been. BUt assuming it would have worked by itself seems to me to be questionable. There's no reason to be sure it would work on Quadaffi, who has demonstrated that he wants to hold onto power, whatever the rest of the world thinks. Suppose the left actually had political power, and we advocated for this embargo idea, and got it, but it didn't work, and Quadaffi massacred thousands, or tens of thousands. What would we then say to the survivors, who were begging for a no fly zone. "Sorry, but no fly zones are too dangerous, your lives were not enough to sway us?" Assume right now, someone from Bangazi, after begging and demonstrating for a no fly zone, worrying about her or his life and the lives of everyone around her or him, looks at this debate on Znet. I wonder what they would say to those advocating against a no fly zone? Actually, I don't wonder.
Me pointing that out does not mean I think you are callous or anything like that, I just think you're wrong.
>I foresee the West using any "sucess" (most likely a perceived "success" resulting from sucessful propaganda - like Kosovo or Bosnia) to justify future wars. This is hardly speculative. After Vietnam the US government engaged in carefully selected battles (Grenada, bombing Libya in 1986, kicking Hussein out of Kuwait in 1990, bombing Panama under Noriega) where "success" could be declared quickly. The public was softened up for (eventually) the really large scale killing they've done in Iraq since 2003. In fact, the West has been unbelievably threatening towards Iran despite the undeniable catastrophe they created in Iraq.
Yet we saw protest unprecedented against the Iraq war. Sure I agree what you say is a risk, but what about the lives of innocents weighed against this risk. We just have to organize better.
>I foresee a great deal of "collateral damage" getting covered up because the West buries the consequences of its military campaigns
So do I. I hope it's minimal. It's a horrible situation, as far as I understand ethics, in such a situation, we should try for the minimal loss of life.
>I forsee the West using the leverage it develops through it military involvement to obtain control over the opposition to Gadddafi. I see no reason to equate the opposition to Gaddafi at this point in time, but Western leverage over them will be disastrous as anyone should know by casting a glace at western allies around the world.
How will they do this with no troops on the ground?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Emersberger, Joe at Mar 31, 2011 11:30 AM
I maintain that a credible threat of an oil embargo could have been made AND evaluated quickly - while the whole "no-fly" resolution was debated and certainly in the days before that when Gaddafis froces began to regain momentum. We did NOT have to wait and see if a massacre happened. We don't know how effective such tactics would have been because they weren't tried. The West has a tremendous incentive to ignore non-military alternatives completely or not pursue them seriously. They are still ignoring them. Aim #1 has now been achieved. Where is the call for non-military alternatives now when dire situation in Benghazi is over and Gaddafi's side appears to have even recovered somewhat? Are we to wait for another impending massacre by Gaddifi's forces so the West can ramp up its military role?
When you talk about Libyans in danger looking contemptuously at the debate on Znet it of some reminds me of some email discussions I had with Johann Hari before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Hari pointed to some surveys that – while hardly conclusive – showed that a very significant number of Iraqis – in desperation - welcomed a US led invasion that would (it seemed) rid them of the immediate cause of their suffering. Hari’s main mistake was to focus only on immediate concerns of those Iraqis and to completely underestimate the capacity of Western government’s for destruction. That was not some abstract, hypothetical risk that could be disregarded. The aftermath of the invasion and occupation eventually caused Hari to (very much to his credit) admit he was wrong. He would have been wrong even if the invasion and occupation had gone way better. The track record of the West was as stunning clear in 2003 and much more so now.
It confuses me when you write as follows of the threat the West’s intervention poses by legitimizing Western violence down the road by saying “Sure I agree what you say is a risk, but what about the lives of innocents weighed against this risk. “
The “risk” is the lives of millions of innocents are threatened by West which has the whole world in its crosshairs. That IS the risk. This is not a far fetched, theoretical risk. Look at the 2 million Iraqi dead since the “good war” of 1990. Look at the 1 million dead since the 2003 invasion which millions of Iraqis – in desperation – may well have “begged for” a western invasion. While I despise defeatism on the left, we should get real about our prospects. I will not wager my life – much less the lives of millions - of the ability of the the Western anti-war movement to get vastly stronger in the near future.
Finally you ask how the West could coopt the Libya rebels without “troops on the ground”. It’s already happening as Vijay Prashad made very clear in his recent debate with Juan Cole on Democracy Now. There is no need to speculate. How successful the West will be in making puppets out of the rebels is another issue, but there is no doubt that the West has already made progress.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Grinder, Matt at Mar 31, 2011 20:10 PM
That's true, i guess. But let me ask you this: If an effective embargo and other measure were not effective (As I believe they would not have been), if everything was tried but didn't work, then would you have supported a no fly zone?
>When you talk about Libyans in danger looking contemptuously at the debate on Znet it of some reminds me of some email discussions I had with Johann Hari before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Hari pointed to some surveys that – while hardly conclusive – showed that a very significant number of Iraqis – in desperation - welcomed a US led invasion that would (it seemed) rid them of the immediate cause of their suffering. Hari’s main mistake was to focus only on immediate concerns of those Iraqis and to completely underestimate the capacity of Western government’s for destruction. That was not some abstract, hypothetical risk that could be disregarded. The aftermath of the invasion and occupation eventually caused Hari to (very much to his credit) admit he was wrong. He would have been wrong even if the invasion and occupation had gone way better. The track record of the West was as stunning clear in 2003 and much more so now.
According to Chomsky, who knows more about history than I, their incompetence was staggering, surprising. Not many predicted Iraq would be so hard to deal with. Chomsky said something about the Nazi's had an easier time in france than the US did in Iraq, due to their incompetence. The british controlled parts of iraq fared much better, from what I remember. It was not that predictable. So were the people wrong to hope that the invasion would help them? Who could be wrong about that? Am I wrong to hope that this will work out for the best? Of course not. Neither are you. I hoped that the Iraq war would work out for Iraqies too. Did i oppose it? for sure I did! There were other options on the table much superior to invasion (much much) that would help Iraqis. Now look at this situation: Where are the options to stop an immanet massacre? You point to some, I I don't believe they would work, but I would hope they do.
I don't know Hari. Did he oppose the invasion of Iraq? If he did, he could still oppose it yet hope it would work out for the best. There is nothing wrong with that. If his prediction was off, then there you go, he didn't predict the future (nobody did). Say he predicted that things would get better for Iraqis after an invasion, given what he knew at the time, was he wrong to think that at the time? It's debatable, at that time, he might have had a plausible argument. You must go with what you know at the time. I might have agreed with him at the time. Even If I had agreed with his assesment, that an invasion probably will help them out, I still would have opposed invasion, because for one, the aftermath was unpredictable, (2) lifting sanctions would have let Iraqis determine their own fate and oust Saddam themselves (3) they were sure to get a dictatorship out of it, not elections, etc..
Now say history does not bear me out. Say that in the future you can definately point to a chain of events that will unfold in the coming months and years that show conclusively that the no fly zone led to a far greater atrocity than anything Qudaffi could have possible done in Benghazi. Would I be wrong to have thought the no fly zone was a good idea at this time, right now? That it looks like, right now, this is the best way to stop a massacre? I don't think so. You must go with what you have at the time.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Grinder, Matt at Mar 31, 2011 21:56 PM
I see two conflated questions here:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Emersberger, Joe at Apr 01, 2011 05:53 AM
I think an analogy best explains my position. Imagine a terrible crime is about to take place. Are there circumstances where calling on a serial killer to help the victim might be justified? Our governments are analagous to a serial killer - one with tremendous fire power at his disposal, both military and economic. The serial killer may well prevent the short term crime - for his own depraved motives - most likely to to perpetrate even more horrble crimes. Nevertheless, the victim may certainly beg for help from the serial killer or anyone strong enough to save him or his loves ones. I could not blame the victim for thinking of nothing else but that. But what of the people who actually call the serial killer in knowing that they cannot control the killer and that everything about his motives, his grisly track record and his power suggests it is very likely he will use the emergency to perpetrate horrible crimes down the road - probably even against the victim he may temporarily save?
I didn't predict Iraq would be such an undeniable disaster, but what I said to Hari (who writes for the UK Independent and who supported the invasion of Iraq) is that the US and its allies would not be satisfied with Iraq if they were able to call it a "sucess".That much was quite predictable. Incredibly, the US, UK and others were not able to call Iraq a "sucess". Some truths are too big even for them to bury. But the West has still proceeded to threaten Iran very seriously - using the same utterly discredited approach they used against Iraq. Not hard to see that Iran would be thoroughly bombed by now if Iraq had been a "success" and still might be. The world is a complicated place, no dount, but some things can be known and predicted in a general way - like extremely depraved actions from the West (unless revolutionary changes take place within the West).
In theory , yes a very short term military intervention - after other approaches were given a reasonable chance - coud be justified (example, averting a very dire short term emgency in Benghazi). HOWEVER, the problem is we have no credible reason to belive the consequecnes would only be short term. Could we have said in 2003 "I support a war ONLY to remove Saddam Husein but not all the other things the West is surely going to do afterwards." "All the other things" come with te territory when you call on a powerful serial killer to do police work. The burden of proof is on those who call the serial killer to show that horrific consequces - greater than any short term benefit - are not likely. The burden must be a heavy one.as Chomsky just wrote.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Grinder, Matt at Apr 01, 2011 16:29 PM
There are so many conflated questions here:
(1) What do we support? Nobody supports the US...
(2) What do we think will happen? You agree a massacre was about to happen, you think the aftermath of NATO will be worse than tens of thousands of innocent people being machine gunned down. OK, I don't think that will happen.
(3) What should we advocate for? It doesn't matter, really. We have no power. It only matters in how "left" thinkers influence everybody else, in the hopes that one day, somehow we will have power, and we set a good example in the past,. which also makes little sense, because we're not even a unified entity.
If we did have the power (that is, a real democracy), our military would be under our control, removing the possibility of us perpetuating a bloody aftermath, or trying to set up a dictator.
>Could we have said in 2003 "I support a war ONLY to remove Saddam Husein but not all the other things the West is surely going to do afterwards."
No we couldn't, and nobody says they support NATO in Libya. No me, not Achcar, nobody on the "left" supports it. In Iraq we not only didn't support it, we thought it was a bad idea. Here we dont' support it, but think it was the only option. We don't suport them in trying to influence the post Quadaffi. We don't support them bombing indiscriminantly. We're saying, yes this was the only option for preventing a massacre, I'm glad somebody did it, now stop interfering, go away, your job is done. You can advocate for one thing and not others, that's OK. What you support is a different matter. Just cause if someone had asked me what to do about the upcoming massacre, I would have said, "institute a no fly zone". that doesn't mean I then would have said "go ahead and do bad things after".
this is what's wrong with your analogy. Ideally, we'd like to call in the serial killer, get him to do his thing, then immediately lock him up afterwads, better yet, just call in someone else. We didn't call in the serial killer and then let him loose, we didn't even call him, he did what he wanted. We are allowed, as the "left" (which is a pretty ridiculous label) to selectively advocate for one thing, but not for the other.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Emersberger, Joe at Apr 01, 2011 17:30 PM
We need not dogmatically claim that western violence can never provide short term benefits to some people. There were Afghans who welcomed the Talban initially for providing some relief from violent instability.
I’m afraid you go too far when you say no one on the left “supports” NATO’s bombing. If we aren’t opposing it then that is tacit, support.
Juan Cole is openly cheerleading for NATO.
Achcar has said “it was wrong for any forces on the left to oppose the idea of a no-fly zone and the initial pounding of Gaddafi’s armor in the absence of any alternative to avoid the foretold large-scale massacre in Libya”
Similiarly, you say “this was the only option for preventing a massacre,”
We don’t know that because we don’t have civilized governments who have any regard for human life and, what would follow from that, who would have a significant desire to use violence only as a last resort. For them it is the first resort – especially when they must “cure” the public of a “Vietnam syndrome” and now an “Iraq syndrome”.
To put it another way, we should not limit ourselves to only considering alternatives that our serial killer governments are willing to consider. That is inviting disaster however small our role may be in it.
Anyway – all that said – by now I don’t think we are disagreeing on that much. You’ve helped me clarify my thoughts on this, and for that I thank you.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: oil embargo not an option?
By Grinder, Matt at Apr 01, 2011 18:42 PM
I guess I just don't see it that way. I think you can list what you approve of of what you oppose. I can approve of my government setting up a methodone clinic in Vancouver, not approve of them occupying afghanistan. I approve of establishing a no fly zone, I dont' approve of innocents being killed by my governments' missiles in the no fly zone, I don't approve of trying to influence the new governemnt (if they win). etc.
>Anyway – all that said – by now I don’t think we are disagreeing on that much. You’ve helped me clarify my thoughts on this, and for that I thank you.
You too. regards. You have certainly influenced me too, and changed my mind on a few things, I think. Isn't civilized debate wonderful?...
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When does a civilian become a combatant?
By Andrews, John at Mar 30, 2011 11:52 AM
The hypocrisy of the west in Libya knows no bounds. We have armed the Libyan government to the teeth and turned a blind eye as Gadaffi, who hasn't just gone mad, has slaughtered his people over the last fourty years.
Now that Gadaffi has filled the picture frame previously inhabited by Osama Bin Laden / Sadaam Hussein, we feel the need to go and remove their weapons and, what is more, our cretinous government (UK) can see positive benefits in arming the rebels. But if you arm the rebels surely they too become armed combatants and need to be taken out? Luckily, the west will always be on hand to take out such renegade factions - unlike India, China, Brazil etc who don't seem to get the same urges that we suffer from.
As I have said before - The right to bear arms makes as much sense as arming bears.
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