London Burning, What's Next
The real surprise about riots from London to Birmingham and Manchester, is not that London is burning, but that Paris, New York, and Rome aren't - yet. But who knows what's next? And who knows what should be next?
1. The rioting isn't strategically brilliant, but it isn't hooliganism.
The rioting is incensed, desperate, and warranted outrage. It is spawned by escalating policy-based rip offs piled on top of persistent systemic social injustice. Does it deserve the label resistance? Should we call it rebellion? Whether or not the ashes are that exalted, they are not hooliganism. Truth be told, even real hooliganism - like what happens at some football games - is most often displaced anger at stunted life circumstances. This doesn't mean everything happening in the streets is fine. Of course not. It means (a) much worse things are happening all the time, causing these acts, and (b) some aspects of even the most reflexive acts are not only understandable, they are, in context, given limited options, at least in one respect informed. Witness the extent of coverage for this, compared to earlier peaceful demonstrations. Of course, most of the coverage is not sincere, but motivated to incite violent sentiments in the broader public, fueling repression and perhaps even fascistic policies. When mainstream media moguls excoriate riots, they ought to also excoriate themselves for enforcing conditions that produce riots. When the left criticizes riots, it ought to also criticize itself for not producing movements through which people can confidently manifest struggle more constructively than by rioting.
2. The broken windows and burning buildings aren't violence.
Flying bricks and lit matches express frustration, unleash pent-up passions, and evidence unmet desires to stand in the flow of society as actual participants, not just as victims. Are the bricks violent assaults on some property? Yes, they are. Are the bricks violence, the way media use of that word implies? No, they are not. Similarly is burning buildings violence against property? Yes, it is. More, when that property is owned by small shopkeepers, and even harms poor people's homes, is the burning disgusting? Yes, of course it is. But we wouldn't call the flailing self defense of a person who lacks tools for protecting themselves, but who is trying to ward off a mugger, violence. We would call it desperate defense. We should not call the flailing acts of young people throwing bricks against a barbaric system because they lack tools for manifesting their powers in any better way, violence. We should call it desperate defense. And for anyone who has ever bought the notion of collateral damage from governments who used it to rationalize antiseptically bombing thousands and even millions of people into exile and death, to castigate whole communities for some witless match wielding, is, honestly, obscene.
3. The theft isn't even theft.
Are things being stolen, so that technically there is something many gray flannel people carrying dictionaries can in a technical sense rightfully call theft? Yes, of course. Is that technical theft merely criminal, however, or is it a warranted, albeit meagre and confused, redistribution? The latter. When the poor, who are locked out of commerce, try to take back means of life, it is redistribution, not theft, and this remains true even when it is clumsy and largely self-defeating. Conversely, when the rich legally use job speed up, unemployment, cutbacks, tax breaks, government aid, contracts, banks, and finally police to grab and hold most of society's wealth for themselves, while the poor get nearly nothing - even when done with great panache, it is merely capitalist exploitation on a gargantuan scale. If stealing by the poor makes one cringe and cry out - but exploiting by the rich feels like background noise to be ignored - there is a problem. For that matter, the passion displayed in the streets by those who are smashing down windows and trying to abscond with TVs (or food) is itself also grabbing for a sense of efficacy, dignity, influence, and even solidarity and belonging, however minimal and however brief, as against the norm of a long battered, submissive march toward lonely death, starting at about the age of fifteen, made bearable only by private courage and creativity against society's impositions.
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As soon as you're born they make you feel small,
By giving you no time instead of it all,
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all,
They hurt you at home and they hit you at school,
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool,
Till you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules,
When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years,
Then they expect you to pick a career,
When you can't really function you're so full of fear,
A working class hero is something to be |
The endless debates now gracing London media about what is motivating people who are fighting police, breaking buildings, burning cars, and taking commodities that TV says everyone needs but that they are denied, is morally and motivationally disgusting, like almost everything else that passes for discussion, debate, and thought among the educated sectors, much less that passes for analysis or wisdom in corporate newspapers, magazines, radio, and TV. Could the hypocrisy be any clearer? Does anyone who can manage to escape endless hammering by the ad driven, fad frenzied, idiot wind of mass culture, and by the conforming pressures of regimented and fearful capitalist daily life, doubt this? If you don't understand, read the John Lennon lyrics above and below. Feel them.
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV,
And you think you're so clever and classless and free,
But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see,
There's room at the top they are telling you still,
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,
If you want to be like the folks on the hill,
A working class hero is something to be
The question arises: Now what? As steadily increasing anguish turns into steadily escalating anger in steadily more locales, what can come of it? For that matter, what should come of it?
The former question is easier. What can come of it? Broadly, two things.
First, pessimistically, the tally of achievement could be much noise and disturbance and some broken and bashed establishments and messed up streets that eventually peters out into exhaustion and collapse. Some commodities will have been redistributed - but actually very little. Some people will have been incarcerated, but not many relative to population or even participation. Some heads will need healing - though maybe some won't be able to heal because they are literally laid to rest. Memories will later play out in some minds as moments of dignity and hope. They will play out in other minds as moments of chaos and fear. In most minds, they will not replay at all. Maybe there will also be, in this sad but quite possible scenario, a residue of resistance that can be rekindled down the road. Maybe, however, there will be a residue of increased despair based on the interpretation that we acted massively, but the bullying burial of our hopes persists.
Second, optimistically, the tally of achievement could instead be dramatically transformed consciousnesses for thousands or even millions of people. New emotional ties could be established. New organizational ties could be implemented. Growing desires could persist, inspiring a lasting mass movement with aims, methods, agendas, continuing militance, and an eagerness to struggle tirelessly to win escalating victories and even a new world.
The first thing we might ask about these two broad possibilities is: Which approach to people massively fighting against harsh policies that amidst the indignities of an already barbarically unjust system is more likely to have the optimistic than the pessimistic outcome? The approach currently unfolding in London and the UK? Or the approach still under way in Spain?
The London approach is more aggressive, more visible and in your face, but it also involves way fewer people, and probably even steadily fewer, over time, due to its tactics and tone, with, conversely, more people riled into support of the state and police. The London approach - unless it alters - doesn't organically raise matters of organization and lasting structure. It doesn't daily debate and pursue coherent demands and program. It doesn't auger creation of a lasting movement. It doesn't plant the seeds of a better future in the present.
The Spanish approach is less aggressive and in your face, but it involves more people and, at least potentially, over time steadily more people seem to become involved and supportive due to its tone and tactics, with all those involved as part of the daily protest efforts literally creating organization and lasting structure, including moving toward coherent demands and program.
We know how Mubarak would answer. The latter approach removed me. I would have prevailed over the former approach. Indeed, is there any leader in any country who wouldn't agree with him? In any corporate board room? Maybe, in some locale, at some time, sure. But in developed industrialized societies where physical confrontation is the only playing field the state is overwhelmingly better at, I don't think so.
So however hard it might be to envision, it follows that everyone needs to think about, in London and Birmingham, and maybe soon in many cities in many countries, can a gigantic outpouring of militant anger be morphed into a gigantic occupation of town centers, squares, parks, and roads, as in the Spanish model, welcoming a much wider cross section of the population, retaining it, and applying time and energy and wisdom to creating lasting ties, lasting organizations, and persisting program?
Can that happen in the UK, now? I don't know. I am not there. I doubt even those who are there know. But from a distance, and at least for my country - the U.S. - it seems essential, so I suspect it is essential for the UK too. And also essential, I think, is building organizations that the aroused, militant, and motivated people who are ready to rebel can join, make their own, and then marshall to further struggle. And also essential, I think, is that such organizations have a coherent vision of what they are trying to accomplish, both to sustain and inspire hope and to guide choices. And have a coherent program or strategy for the longish haul that will of course alter as conditions demand, as well as a coherent set of immediate demands, suited to the current crisis, able to be won, which can dramatically benefit those who are suffering, and also feed continuing desires for more gains.
All of this has to arise from discussion among the widest possible community of rebellious activists, not just those young enough and fast enough for wild in the streets rioting. But, once that discussion starts to happen, people will have to offer some suggestions about those coherent immediate demands, and then about more encompassing vision and strategy, too.
For the demands, my own thoughts are in a recent commentary: Fight Forward … http://www.zcommunications.org/fight-forward-by-michael-albert






I'm not sure....
By Schloss, Paul at Aug 14, 2011 22:10 PM
I could list them here. However, in a long piece, which first gives an impressionistic account of what I experienced after the riot, I look at this article amongst other things. I know it sounds like advertising, but it is not: it is simply too long to copy into this comment.
http://serenityscience.blogspot.com/2011/08/poor-hackney.html
My conclusion is simple: the causes of the riot are being mixed up with the riot itself; the latter a self contained event, with little or no meaning. By concentrating on the latter and not the former the left is doing itself no favours.
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Re: I'm not sure....
By Albert, Michael at Aug 14, 2011 22:41 PM
The only inkling I get is the last two sentences - and I don't think they apply to what I wrote... one can talk about causes of the events, one can talk about their effects - and even about alternatives that one might prefer. I did all three - as well as commenting on some of the hypocrisy of response, both left and mainstream. That being so, I just don't know what it is you don't agree with.
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I'm sorry, I thought I was clearer
By Schloss, Paul at Aug 19, 2011 07:31 AM
The first sentence in point 1. Is this true? I’m not sure it is. Many of the people involved took part for no other reason than they were there: a riot creates rioters; formed by the situation and peer pressure. It seems a minority involved were intent on theft, and the riot provided the cover for it.
The rest of point 1 concentrates on a relative comparison with the media rather than the actual riot itself. I could go through each point, although they all, in their own way, repeat what for me is a problem with this approach: just like the mainstream press over here the real riot is not discussed, only a general image, which is then debated, pro or con. I agree, your piece is full of qualifications, but the general thrust is clear: the riots are a justifiable backlash to the oppressive politics of our rulers. I agree that at some level the polices of this present government has created the conditions for the riot, but I don’t think these have caused them; I give reasons in my post. I also think such a view overplays the politics of the riots – whatever happened in Tottenham to start the riot, and the reason does appear to be police oppression, seems different to what happened later: the character and the impetus behind the rioting changed.
Because this piece is not talking about a real riot, it loses all specificity, and verges on the romantic:
“For that matter, the passion displayed in the streets by those who are smashing down windows and trying to abscond with TVs (or food) is itself also grabbing for a sense of efficacy, dignity, influence, and even solidarity and belonging, however minimal and however brief, as against the norm of a long battered, submissive march toward lonely death, starting at about the age of fifteen, made bearable only by private courage and creativity against society's impositions.”
Personally I think a lot of the looting is rather sad – how low is people’s aspirations; and how conditioned by the corporate world. A significant amount seems simply pressure of the moment; which may account for a phenomenon that at first seems absurd – the small things people stole. It was as if they felt they had to take something, because of the pressures around them to do so. A riot can be another form of oppression.
I agree the media circus is behaving appallingly. But it is one thing to criticise the terrible moralising of the media, its transference of the effects of a phenomenon, a riot, onto a whole class of society, and another to project an alterative meaning onto those same people, without trying to understand the facts and to capture individual motivations. In both cases the actual human beings have ceased to exist.
“Optimistically, the tally of achievement could instead be dramatically transformed consciousnesses for thousands or even millions of people. New emotional ties could be established. New organizational ties could be implemented. Growing desires could persist, inspiring a lasting mass movement with aims, methods, agendas, continuing militance, and an eagerness to struggle tirelessly to win escalating victories and even a new world.”
In my piece I criticise one newspaper headline for blaming it on a lack of community. For it seems likely that gangs were involved, and that they were the prime reason for a lot of the damage. That is, these communities already exist, but are highly unlikely to be organised for progressive politics. If I am right the majority were simply carried along by the events of the moment. Law abiding young people swept up by the pressure of their peers and the situation they found themselves in. The eyewitness account from which I quoted seems to capture it well – and shows the conflicts that existed between individuals’ moral sense and the cumulative social pressure of the looting. I also suggest that the rioting was a cover for racist and sexual prejudices – thus my reference to the attack on a gay and lesbian bookshop. There were many different things going on over those few days; a lot of it perhaps just simple copying.
If this analysis is anywhere near correct it is very unlikely that new political groupings will emerge out of the riots. Such a view, in my view, can only exist because the actual events of nearly two weeks ago are not being discussed. In principle yes, what you say is true – it goes for the whole piece. However, how many general ideas are proved wrong by the particular circumstance?
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Re: I'm sorry, I thought I was clearer
By Albert, Michael at Aug 19, 2011 13:15 PM
You think, if I may summarize, that by not focusing sufficiently on the proximate events and how vile some were, and due to my hoping for good outcomes and hatred for the state and economy and racism and so on - I miss the heart of the matter. It was irrational, random mob behavior, and nothing more. Those randomply present were swept up into it - could have been anyone, etc.
I think, by not focussing sufficiently on the contextual causes and circumstances, who it was, where it was, what they endure, what their real options are, you miss the heart of the matter - that the system in the UK has grotesquely violated a large portion of the population to the point of violent reaction - quite predictable, and warranted, though not socially optimal, reaction. My own view, that level outrage, and indeed much much much more, is warranted worldwide, certainly in my country, the U.S., right now, years back, in good times and bad...which is to say, what elites find to be good times, or bad. On the other hand, while the outrage is not just warranted but needed - the acts it channels into can be better or worse, of course.
Okay, we can disagree. If you read closely what I wrote, you will see it is trying to understand people, real people, in real context, given their conditions and options - not in light of those we wish held for them, or that hold for other people. But, again, there is an ongoing discussion in the uk, and I think you should probably engage with that...
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Re: Re: I'm sorry, I thought I was clearer
By Schloss, Paul at Aug 21, 2011 10:36 AM
I agree: we will have to disagree. However, I need to make two small points to clarify my position. When I write a riot creates rioters I am not saying that what happened here was mindless mob violence. Quite the contrary. Thus the references to a “civilised” riot in the blog post. Interestingly Dave Hill in his blog confirms this: surprisingly little damage. A lot of looting seems to have been rationally planned. His blog also includes some extremely interesting eyewitness accounts of what happened just before the rioting began. One account in his comments section suggests the Hackney rioting was also rationally instigated: possibly by a well-off middle class activist. Although police aggression may well have been the primary cause of the ensuing violence.
I also suggest the media images are exaggerating the reality, on which much of the commentary relies.
My second point that all the talk of general causes misses the actual reasons why this particular riot took place at this particular time. The Left following the mainstream media, more interesting in writing about big society questions than the small facts of a particular community’s life. Both are making assumptions about the riots, which may be untenable. However, this doesn’t mean that I say there are no background reasons for these disturbances. Again quite the contrary; as my blog post makes very clear. There are political and social causes (particularly the actions of the police in certain areas) that provided the possibility of such a riot. The nature of which is quite odd and interesting; and needs to be understood. Too much general talk about possible causes, and which takes the riots for granted, grafting onto them older ideas and images from the 1980s, or from other countries, seems to miss this completely. One of the reasons for the extended description at the beginning was to capture one such different perspective, by concentrating on the (very) small details. We need to understand the nature of this particular riot, and why it happened at this particular time. This may give us an insight into how high politics affects people’s actual lives, in this odd and often disturbing society.
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Re: Re: Re: I'm sorry, I thought I was clearer
By Albert, Michael at Aug 21, 2011 12:28 PM
The reason is that general causes repeat - proximate causes typically do not.
So, take a riot.
If there is a set of general causes that create a condition in which any of a vast number of proximate events can set off a riot - which event does set one off in the end is, at least in my view, of very little lasting interest. On the other hand, the general causes matter greatly - both if one wants to understand and even more so, if one wants to do something - such as prevent a replay by social policies that remove causes, or if the general causes persist, know it, and be prepared to have reactions be productive.
When you say there is more to learn by viewing much more closely - that is true, to a point. And the point is - (a) learning more about general causes and general behaviors, and (b) learning more about specific people and their reactions and acts.
So, do you think there are other general causes I have missed? And that by looking in detail at the actions of specific folks in specific places, police or rioters, I would be able to discern these additional important general cause?
There is one last thing that one can do with proximate causes - elevate them to the point that one loses track of general causes, and then misunderstands events, offers useless correctives, etc. This can be honest or, as in the case of the media and politicians, self conscious manipulation to avoid distrubing truths. Obviously, we don't want to do that.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm sorry, I thought I was clearer
By Schloss, Paul at Aug 21, 2011 23:21 PM
I think we would also agree that true understanding comes from seeing how the specific event relates to the general background. However, this is where the problem begins. In any historical or political analysis the balance of these two will determine the value of the inquiry – too particular you get lost in the facts, too general you don’t see the event. This balance will vary between different levels of analysis: to understand the nature of the American state involves a different a set of criteria, will be tipped towards more general attributes, than to understand how it occupied Japan after the war; where there will be much greater reliance on particular facts and arguments.
In my view to comprehend any particular event we have to identify its specific character, dependent in large part on its immediate causes. Go too far from what actually happened and the danger is that a catch-all formula replaces analysis – the class struggle, the market, the authoritarian text… That is, general explanations, particularly when it comes to human society, risks losing all content. Of course we see it very clearly in the mainstream media: bad parenting is the current headline filling up the shelves in my local supermarket. We see it less clearly when ourselves are guilty of it. I’m probably a terrible offender myself.
The relationship between general causes and specific elements not only produces the phenomena, in this case a riot, but it also creates something new – the event itself. In some, perhaps most, cases the novelties are so minor as to be not worth mentioning: what they share with similar phenomena is much more important. In other cases their novelty is extremely significant, for it suggests our general explanatory framework is wrong, or at least requires revision. This riot may be such an event. Alternatively, the technology now available may have changed our understanding of riots – we see them a little more clearly. It is possible that this riot is like all the others, but now we realise our ideas about them mistaken; at least to a degree.
There are many implications to this. If these riots are different from the political uprisings in North Africa and Wisconsin, and different again from the Thatcher riots in the eighties, it may cause us to alter our views over the general causes. What we think applies generally might not actually apply here; or at least we have to make distinctions between the wealth of general explanations that are on offer. Police aggression and a particular consumer culture might be more important than austerity for example. That is, there may something particularly British (actually English) about these riots that cannot be replicated elsewhere.
I also think we have to distinguish between the background causes, which create an atmosphere in which a riot is possible, and the particular event itself, which follows its own logic. A general cause creates the possibility of a riot. Understanding and tackling it reduces the likelihood of such rioting. However, once a riot starts it will follow its own course. Politics may (and almost certainly did) cause the outburst in Tottenham. What followed is much less clear. To base any political strategy (or hope) on the events that followed the Tottenham riots seems to me dubious. It suggests a gang member targeting a sports shop is motivated by similar concerns as a striking teacher or a young woman protesting against torture and corruption. The latter two are an inspiration, and suggest a political programme. The former does not.
In the passage I quoted there was a generalised description of the rioters. There is no doubt some truth to this. However, it does not describe the actual people on the day. Descriptions I’ve read tend to concentrate on their light heartedness; for many it was a sort of game, a spectator event. It suggests the nature of this riot was something rather different from the anger that started it all in Tottenham. A political event had become a gathering of sports fans and consumers of a peculiar kind. All facilitated by new technology. It doesn’t provide much hope for the left.
The assumption on the right is that the riots are linked to morality; and with a lot of faked outrage thrown in. The assumption of much of the left is that politics (in the widest sense) is to blame; much of which I think is true, and is genuine. But what if the general causes behind the riots are political but the riots themselves are not? Andrew Gamble in the TLS called them recreational, which is suggestive. And this where I think we disagree. If most of the rioters, and here I would make a distinction between Tottenham and Hackney, are not even remotely inspired by the general political causes, the meaning of the riots change; as does what we expect from them. My sense of your original article was that the riots were a symbol of rebellion. I am much more pessimistic: I doubt if they have much political meaning at all. However, I hope that the meanings that are constructed around these riots will lead to a weakening of this government’s policies.
In short I don’t’ think I am concentrating on the particular as against the general. I am trying to understand both, but by paying more attention to the former, which I think explains these events better. I have, if you are interested,a previous post that looks at someone who does just this, and thus looks absurd. Your reply reminded me of it. Accused of something I have previously criticised! A strange experience.
Ultimately, I think, the difference between us is one of balance: I gravitate more to the specific, yourself more to the general. Thus you ask me what general causes you have left out. I don’t know, is the simple answer. But then if we were to extend these wider explanations by a factor of 15 would it get us any nearer to understanding why the riots took place in London not Paris, in Hackney and not Swansea?
Many years ago I was in a university library bored and fed up. I spent the afternoon looking at literary criticism in the 1950s – those old academic journals no one reads anymore. What struck me then was the conformity of the explanations of the great classic works: all, it seemed, could be reduced to a Freudian analysis… Whatever merits Freud had, were been lost by being applied too indiscriminately; while the books themselves no longer had any individual meaning. They just became case studies for a rather simple intellectual formula; which was accepted as a given. At the time I was reading these articles a new formula had appeared – deconstruction. And likewise it was being applied to these same books. This is the problem of generalities – they can be applied to just about anything if they are not tied down to something quite specific. Thus in a trial the appearance of a soft spoken middle aged middle class white man would suggest to some (perhaps most) of a white European jury that such a person could not commit a violent crime. Their experience, repeated over many occasions, tells them that this is not possible. Only a maniac could commit something so heinous. The general has overridden the particular and destroyed it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm sorry, I thought I was clearer
By Albert, Michael at Aug 21, 2011 23:45 PM
I saw nothing new below, so I will let what I have written, earlier, stand...
You seem to think you have a special approach able to yield considerable useful insights - particularly in the case of the London events. Okay - I doubt it, being honest. But by all means, write an article, or a blog post if you want something just a bit less formal.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm sorry, I thought I was clearer
By Schloss, Paul at Aug 25, 2011 23:49 PM
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Fear and The Young
By Moase, Daniel at Aug 12, 2011 21:47 PM
I'm not sure if you can access BBC iPlayer in the States but it's been very illuminating watching, firstly, Question Time (a political programme that has a panel and an audience, that is meant to be representative of society but is instead representative of the status quo, which covers topical issues, in this case, the English Riots) and then, tonight, Young Voters' Question Time (the same format, but for young people).
What I saw in the first programme were frightened people. People who did not understand why what has happened happened. A generation of people who fear their own youth. A fear that comes from a lack of understanding and that leads to the calling for rubber bullets, the army on the streets and disproporianate punishment (like the imprisoning of a student who stole a bottle of water and was sentenced to six months in prison).
The second programme gave a voice to the young, who could express their anger (and their fears), who could, and did; blame the bankers for bankrupting the country and precipitating the policy decisions that have led to the closures of vital services for young people; who drew comparison with the youth jailed for stealing water to the MP's who simply had to give the money they stole in the form of expenses back, and walk free, to carry on living in privilege; and who screamed "what about the man shot dead by the police" and the other 333 people killed in police custody over the last 15 years with no convictions of police officers, probably the same police officers that stop and search the innocence out of children.
Why did we loot shops? Why did we set fire to buildings in our own community? Why did we attack the Feds? Why did we attack any journalist that tried to speak to us? Why do you really need to ask these questions!? Why are the politicians calling us criminals, nothing more, nothing less? Why weren't you listening before and why do you shut your ears now?
The young people on that programme, and across the UK, don't want to be the unheard anymore.
Young people have a developed social consciousness. They see what's wrong with their worlds and they want to fix it. They see that they've been condemned from taking from shops that suck the money out of their communities every single time they make a purchase. They see all these things. They see them more clearly now, even with the attempts by Cameron to spray them with mist of criminality. They're angry at the way they've been labeled as scum of the Earth. They're angry that their own government wants to evict those who took part in the riots from their homes, plunging them further into despair. They've seen the pits of their own despair and have found each other at the bottom.
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Re: Fear and The Young
By Techentien, Gary at Aug 17, 2011 10:01 AM
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Thanks
By Ribeiro, Marcelo at Aug 12, 2011 12:51 PM
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Re: Thanks
By Albert, Michael at Aug 13, 2011 12:05 PM
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Great article, again.
By Le Blanc, Alexandre at Aug 12, 2011 06:54 AM
I'm 28 and I would say I can really understand the youth of London and of England, because I feel just the same. I'm angry, I don't see a future for myself and I feel desperate. Everything in this world looks wrong to me from A to Z (or A to Y, let's say). I am not about to burn everything up (I don't think we can change the system that way), but nothing seems to be working to change things up and the left is just doing terrible. I mean, Obama? Really? That is not a change I can believe in.
Yes the Spain way might be more popular, but more popular does not mean better. The potential is there, but we have to use it. Most people are trying to save capitalism or the few things they have left. I don't see much we could save at this point. The economy will only gets worse with all those cuts. Most of our protests and strikes, are not working anymore. A victory once in a while is not enough at this point.
I am 100% behind parecon but it's hard to talk about that with people. Even more so with activists. I think the general public might be more interested, for some reason. I feel parecon is a great alternative but it seems like most people have their attention elsewhere (elections, peaceful protests and strikes). But we are losing and we have been losing for years.
Like you can see, I am more of a pessimist, but it's great to have Z.net when something like those riots happen. It's always great, but even more so when something «big» happens.
By the way, this is cheesy, but you are most likely my favorite author/thinker alive. I am a huge fan of Chomsky and others, but you are really pushing in the right direction when you say we need an alternative and on many others subjects.
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Re: Great article, again.
By Albert, Michael at Aug 13, 2011 12:11 PM
"I am 100% behind parecon but it's hard to talk about that with people. Even more so with activists. I think the general public might be more interested, for some reason. I feel parecon is a great alternative but it seems like most people have their attention elsewhere (elections, peaceful protests and strikes). But we are losing and we have been losing for years."
I think you may be right about the general public - but mostly there should not be any contradiction between engaging in useful electoral work, or peaceful protest work, or strike work - and advocating parecon. On the contrary, the latter, without the former (and other acts too) would become merely intellectualizing. The former, without the latter (or a compelling shared vision, at any rate) becomes reflex and aimless...as well as unappealing to most due to not addressing their doubts...
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A great article
By Ziverts, Edgar at Aug 11, 2011 23:21 PM
Here in Europe and especially in my country Latvia I am having a very hard time trying to explain to others as to why this is happening and why it is not the fault of pure laziness and the "generosity" of the British welfare state.
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Re: A great article
By Albert, Michael at Aug 11, 2011 23:56 PM
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Re: Re: A great article
By Ziverts, Edgar at Aug 12, 2011 13:28 PM
Sure. It goes something like this, taking inspiration from the UK's PM Cameron:
"This just proves the permissiveness of the the British youth/immigrants who are very well aware of their rights but don't know what the responsibilities are. This also shows what the generous welfare state has lead to -- people are lazy and greedy. Instead of getting a job, they are enjoying their welfare benefits which have made them lazy and not willing to get up and do something meaningful with their lives. … The riots are in no way political because if they were you wouldn't be seeing people looting and burning mid-income families' businesses; this is just pure and simple criminality fuelled by notion that you have your rights but no responsibilities. The police is also to blame for not being tough enough and being too accountable to the government. It is best if the police gets tough with those scum so as to show where their place is. … The British judicial system, too, has treated these criminals with kids' gloves, thus encouraging the gangs to get wild. It is time to make some reforms so that there is a fast track from streets to prisons."
I might be missing out some stuff but this is the general notion that I got reading #UKriots hashtag tweets and the news in general. I must also say that in Latvia the understanding is even dimmer and thus people over here think that it is largely immigrants on benefits. In the UK at least they know it is the local kids and not only those of colour. So there is a slight difference of understanding.
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Re: Re: Re: A great article
By Albert, Michael at Aug 13, 2011 12:13 PM
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Re: Re: A great article
By Williams, Davinder at Aug 14, 2011 19:56 PM
The riots that have recently occured across britain are, for the most part, a-political. While the original riots that broke out in Tottenham were connected to the death of Mark Duggan, the subsequent riots which spread across the country over the next few days were clearly incidencts where people saw the oppurtunity to take what they wanted and seized it - while experiencing the thrill of smashing shop windows and escaping from the police in the priocess.
To see this you only need to look at what the "riots" actually consisted of. The idea that breaking into Curry's in order to steal plasma screen T.V.'s or breaking into Footlockers to steal an expensive pair of trainers is a form of protest against austerity, the socio-political order or the trebling of tuition fees is ridiculous. What reason is there to think this? They are not attacking symbols of authority they are just taking the consumer goods they want - even if this damages their own communities.
The key issue here is a lack of self-restraint. People are after all not stealing things they need but stealing things they merly want - the latest i-phone or the most stylish pair of trainers. The riots are a sympton of a culture in which people do not have any respect for the property and livelihoods of others. If they did have such respect then they obviously would not raid and terrorise there own communities. Thus, the real issue brought up by the riots is how to fix what has gone wrong with our culture - a lack of respect for others and self restraint."
After making this sought of argument people often argue that the cause of this sort of culture - "Broken Britain" is the term used her in the U.K. - is; the welfare state, single mothers, a lack of discipline in schools and at home, soft policing, multiculturalism. high levels of immigration, the decline of religion, liberal permissivness, the influence of black culture etc etc.
I hope that was helpful.
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Re: A great article
By Albert, Michael at Aug 11, 2011 23:57 PM
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Re: A great article
By Albert, Michael at Aug 11, 2011 23:57 PM
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Re: A great article
By Albert, Michael at Aug 11, 2011 23:58 PM
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Insurgent youth and cohesion
By syratt, frank at Aug 11, 2011 21:37 PM
We will have to abandon our accomodations with the world before we can reach and influence those who are already insurgent and not resigned to what capital offers. Whilst they took all the stuff they could get, they know consumerism is a lie, but the prestige of having stuff amounts to their accomodation.
As for camps in city centres, I think it depends on the breath of the classes involved. In the UK any such approach would need to be very broad to be sufficiently representative to avoid being marginalised. StillI I may be yet surprised, as no-one really thought things would kick off quite so large as have since Saturday in Tottenham.
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Re: Insurgent youth and cohesion
By Albert, Michael at Aug 12, 2011 00:07 AM
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