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More on the Draft

By Noam Chomsky at Dec 27, 2004

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One is the system that the military preferred after the debacle with a citizen's army in Vietnam, the first time an imperial power used a citizen's army to fight a colonial war: what's called a "volunteer army," which in effect amounts mostly to a mercenary army of the disadvantaged, from which the privileged are exempt. That's why recruiters avoid prep schools and elite universities (except for officer and specialist training), and work hard in poor neighborhoods. That's a "shade of grey" in between your two extremes. And there are plenty of others. Under the empire, the British commonly used sepoys -- poor Indians -- to fight their dirty wars, in India and elsewhere. That's also in between. And there are a lot of other choices... One preliminary question is whether it is a democratically determined community decision that an army is necessary. Sometimes the answer is pretty clearly Yes: in World War II, for example. There were some people who refused conscription, dedicated pacifists mostly: courageous and honorable, but doesn't bear on the issue. Suppose that assumption holds. Then conscription is not a violation of basic human rights any more than parcelling out other unpleasant work equitably is. Say garbage collection. In a decent society it shouldn't be "volunteer" in the sense that it's undertaken only by people who are driven to it by need. Rather, it should be equitably distributed -- which one can call "conscription" if one likes. These are basic issues discussed in all thinking about decent participatory societies, within the PARECON discussions, for example. Suppose we make different assumptions: conscription for aggressive war, for example. Then it's a violation of human rights because the very assumption is. Make different assumptions and there are different answers.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Antiamerican800, Bernardo at Feb 02, 2005 22:27 PM
In regards to Chomsky's ideas about military conscription I have to confess that I would feel much safer if his "kids off the streets" were swabbed off of America's streets and parachuted to a remote desert.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Allen, Robert at Jan 14, 2005 18:31 PM
Mr. Kertes, Thank you very much for bringing this critical matter to the attention of the readers of Prof. Chomsky's blog. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said and just want to add that anyone who is not "enraged" by the Bush administration's policy in Iraq is morally obtuse, even depraved.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Kertes, Tom at Jan 14, 2005 03:40 AM
These principles and philosophical issues are discussed with the backdrop of the much less nuanced, much more real and less hypothetical reality of the occupation of Iraq. The United States currently occupies Iraq. The United States invaded Iraq, in violation of international law. Over 100,000 Iraqis have since died as a result of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. The invasion and occupation of Iraq is immoral, and is a crime against the peace. Those opposed to the war on moral grounds agree that the war must end, that the United States is responsible for protecting the sovereignty of the Iraqi people, and is also responsible for providing all aid and assistance required for restoring the domestic tranquility of Iraq. We are enraged by the complicity of the American majority in this war, by the right-wing propaganda campaign to advance the war and by the deaths and suffering caused at the hands of the American military. http://DailyDraftDispatch.org http://draftfreedom.org http://StopTheDraftBeforeItStarts.com

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Re: More on the Draft

By Kertes, Tom at Jan 14, 2005 03:39 AM
The issue of the draft is complicated by conflicting values of liberty - freedom from killing and getting killed for the state, of equality and of preserving republican government and democracy. The issue is further complicated by the fact that all humans have the fundamental right of moral refusal in war, regardless if that right is recognized by the state or by society at large. The political question of whether or not the state ought to compel its citizens to engage in warfare is different than the philosophical question of each person's right to act morally. Often opposition to participation in warfare is conflated with opposition to the draft. One can be a pacifist who opposes all warfare but who does not (at least actively) oppose the draft. Personal refusal to participate in war is separate from the question of how best to manage an entire society in the context of the current world system in which war and warfare present real threats to peace and the continuance individual nation states. http://DailyDraftDispatch.org http://draftfreedom.org http://StopTheDraftBeforeItStarts.com

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Re: More on the Draft

By Kertes, Tom at Jan 14, 2005 03:38 AM
Opposing the Draft Now Helps Build Opposition to the Occupation of Iraq When we start talking about opposing the draft on moral terms, we achieve three goals at once. First, we bolster concerns over the draft and make the war more personal to those who may face conscription. Within this, we can make the argument of moral refusal before the administration can make a counter-argument. Second, we can build our case for why the draft will be wrong - and can shift the discussion of the draft to freedom from the draft and away from avoidance of the draft. Third, we are able to relate the reasons why we oppose this war to why we'd oppose a draft for this war. Each time we talk about the draft, we can remind Americans that no citizen should be forced to fight for an immoral and illegal war. And when we make this statement, we are not only opposing the draft, but the economic conscription as well. It is just as wrong to exploit poverty to build an army, as it is to employ a draft for the same ends. http://DailyDraftDispatch.org http://draftfreedom.org http://StopTheDraftBeforeItStarts.com

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Re: More on the Draft

By Allen, Robert at Jan 13, 2005 16:44 PM
Making salaries roughly = would be an acknowledgement of the fact that all labor has dignity. There is no need, then, to turn each worker into a jack of all trades, although during his/her considerable spare time a worker would be able to develop all sorts of talents that would remain latent were he/she a wage slave like today's workers.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Allen, Robert at Jan 13, 2005 08:09 AM
nohope, Any intelligent person who were to read the debate between you and bwong would conclude that he 'wiped the floor with you'. Give it up already.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 09, 2005 00:37 AM
(ctd) The crippling characteristic of the UN, is the power of Veto granted to the permanent members of the security council. It is my belief that the veto power - most notably exercised by the US - is what has risked rendering the UN as an ineffective institution. (Now I'm thinking out loud here) The problem is ... how do we keep the member countries in the UN while removing their veto power? Any thoughts?

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 09, 2005 00:34 AM
Joeblogs56. You touch on an interesting point here. There many advocates for decentralizing power and, to an extent, there is some merit in their arguments; however, on a global scale, power needs to be centralized to an extent. We have an organization, that has crippled itself since its inception, but all of this can be corrected through reforms. I'm talking about the United Nations. Under the UN, you could amass and deploy (albeit strategically) an international army. But for this to be effective, you must grant greater authority to the UN - the only entity that can justifiably violate a country's sovereignty.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 08, 2005 00:25 AM
Thank you, Joe. I hadn't quite thought of it in terms of Disaster relief.. but it is ironic in a sense, don't you agree?

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 08, 2005 00:24 AM
Next he'll say I have the IQ of a flea with a learning disability :P

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 08, 2005 00:18 AM
"May I suggest that the reason you find my posts "ambiguous" is your inability to understand plain English and/or inability to understand arguments slightly more subtle than reciting bumber sticker slogans." oh brother

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 00:17 AM
You want me to respond to your slogans and rhetorics with "more substance"? Now that is funny. Sorry nohope, I may have gone too far. But I really have a strong dislike to self righteous, holier than thou types.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 08, 2005 00:16 AM
“I don't think I misunderstood you the first time around.” Of course you don't because that might imply that you aren't the great mind you believe your self to be. God for bid you ask for clarification before you declare someone's “…premise is simply insane.” Nice rhetorical style…

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 08, 2005 00:13 AM
Nohope. You are partially correct on the slaves front. Atleast, the way Plato put it, citizens and non-citizens. Only citizens can participate in the Polis and does recognize the need for some type of 'slavery'. I don't agree with this. However, Plato was one of the first political philosophers to advocate women's rights. He advocated a strong role for women to participate in all levels of society. I think this is why his ideas were largely rejected at the time. Otherwise, he's got some really good ideas.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 08, 2005 00:10 AM
Bwong. You may suggest what you like, but until you respond to me with less rhetoric and qualifications and more substance, I suspect our discussions have concluded. Thank you, though. It has been ... entertaining.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 08, 2005 00:06 AM
"I am curious though, you seem eager to dismiss my classification of your arguments as "elitist" as a label used by the extreme left. Is this your way of dismissing another argument rather than responding directly to it? " You are the one who do the labeling. Not me. BTW, pining a label on your opponent is not "another argument". It is not an argument. Just so you understand.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 08, 2005 00:01 AM
“in Plato's ideal polis (city), those that are in position of power (politically) are not allowed to own any material property what so ever.” While I tend to agree with you in principle on this point I must admit I'm not a big fan of Plato and suspicious of his politics. For one, and correct me if I am wrong, his social assumptions neglect to include women and slaves who would have facilitated an environment of greater social mobility and equality for those they supported. In essence it isn't that different than our society today were the wealthiest top ten percent enjoy a lot of social flexibility wile the bottom 50 percent enjoy virtually non.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 23:59 PM
"Again, you have not read my post if you have you respond with this. I do not suggest that one job is more/less complex than another job, rather, my argument is that they be valued by society as being equal in stature. It is important that you understand this point if you are to construct a valid counter argument." Of course I understand this point. It is you who need a reading aid. I listed three questions and you said your question to the first question is no(which I happen to agree) I also said that my answer to the second question is also "no". It appear that we are also in agreement. May I suggest that the reason you find my posts "ambiguous" is your inability to understand plain English and/or inability to understand arguments slightly more subtle than reciting bumber sticker slogans.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 23:52 PM
"If, for example, all soldiers are killed and the enemy is advancing, would you - as a doctor - suggest that you and your staff surrender? If that is the case, our society is truly in trouble; but I will let you respond, before I add my commentary in full." Nice try. This is an added scenario which were not in the original discussions. Do you have to argue so clumsily and ungraceiously in order to save your own skin? If all the soldiers are killed then the "unavailiablity of army doctor" would be a moot point. Why did you even bring it up? If "all the soldiers are killed" then the gallantry of the doctor and a few medical staffers certainly would not help in "defending the country". Your question should be whether the doctor should seek martydom in such an event. Well, he may choose to, but then he may decide to surender so that the enemy will not slaughter all the sick in his charge.It can certainly be argued that the second choice contributes better to "social good".

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 23:49 PM
"If the role of the doctor is to take up arms in defense of his country, then the inavailability of the role of "Army Doctor" should not prevent him/her from doing so ..like, or what is different from what you're good at for the benefit of society and (I think I've said this before) for the advancement of social change" Why would the role of the doctor be "to take up arms" in the first place if there is an unavailiablity(sic) of army doctors???!! You premise is simply insane. In this case the doctor would be doing maximal good to the society if he works as an army surgeon. Your view that the doctor should take a combat role even if there is a shortage of army surgeons proves that you are more cocerned with ideology correctness than "what is good for the society". Even though you chant about "social good" like a slogan, you clearly have no clue what it means in a concrete context. I don't think I misunderstood you the first time around.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 23:48 PM
Nohope, Bwong. The insulting, atleast on my part, may have been a little to much and so I offer an apology to Bwong. I have a terrible intolerance for evasiveness and dismissive statements (among other things), still this should not translate into an attack on any person.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 23:43 PM
7Natures. "The fact that logic cannot satisfy us awakens an almost insatiable hunger for the irrational. " - A. N. Wilson

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 07, 2005 23:38 PM
Overt Enigma- thanks for the compliment. This comment is directed to you and bwong and others like 7Natures I mentioned this in another thread cause it really is starting to grate on my nerves, but can we ratchet down the insults and stick to the substance. I know I'm not prize in keeping my responses insult free, but I do think it helps. I mean for instance if I assert that so and so “cant grasp my argument” that may be my own inability to frame it in a manor that connects with their experience. I think it's a poor assumption to make that we disagree because some of us are so much cleverer than others of us. The worst part is that when we begin to insinuate as such we tend to close minds and hearts and that isn't our objective is it? I mean were kicking around ideas in order to gain other peoples perspectives and expand our own understanding of complex issues right? Or is this just a pissing contest by a bunch of guys who really need to get into the boxing ring and work out some of our frustrations and aggression.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 23:37 PM
Nohope. Thank you - that is my point entirely. If all jobs are equal in stature, this will eliminate much (not all) of the classes we have in our society. Its really interesting, but in Plato's ideal polis (city), those that are in position of power (politically) are not allowed to own any material property what so ever. This would roughly translate to Exec. Officers of corporations being removed from the political system. Ironically, the exact opposite happens now (both in the US and in Canada). It is interesting to see its results on political integrity.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Shannon, James at Jan 07, 2005 23:37 PM
You all continue to debate irrational reasoning.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 23:19 PM
One last thing ... "I am just calling a spade a spade". If this were truly accurate, our conversations would be much more meaningful and efficient. Rather, you appear to say "It looks like a spade, has the same shape and colour; same physical dimensions as a spade; and it has the same chemical coposition as a spade, but no, I'm not saying its a spade." Can you begin to understand the format of your responses and frustration it solicits?

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 23:06 PM
(ctd) As to your final *attempt* at a rebuttal, Nohope has eloquently phrased a response better than I could have. I am curious though, you seem eager to dismiss my classification of your arguments as "elitist" as a label used by the extreme left. Is this your way of dismissing another argument rather than responding directly to it? I ask because it is important that I know your limitations if we are to continue this discourse.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 23:06 PM
(ctd) To your next point, "There are three seperate issues here. 1.Are all jobs equally complex? 2.Is the value of a job determined simply by its complexity? 3. Is the value of an individual as a human being determined by his/her position?" Again, you have not read my post if you have you respond with this. I do not suggest that one job is more/less complex than another job, rather, my argument is that they be valued by society as being equal in stature. It is important that you understand this point if you are to construct a valid counter argument. I see that you have used the "Strawman" reference again - is this your way of conceding that you have no valid discourse to offer?

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 23:05 PM
(ctd) To your first point which, unsurprisingly, demonstrates your inability to grasp my argument: "gather you would prefer sending the doctor to combat and let a butcher operate on the wounded?" If the role of the doctor is to take up arms in defense of his country, then the inavailability of the role of "Army Doctor" should not prevent him/her from doing so. This is my point, and this is what doing a menial task is all about. Sometimes you have to do what you don't like, or what is different from what you're good at for the benefit of society and (I think I've said this before) for the advancement of social change. If, for example, all soldiers are killed and the enemy is advancing, would you - as a doctor - suggest that you and your staff surrender? If that is the case, our society is truly in trouble; but I will let you respond, before I add my commentary in full.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 23:04 PM
(ctd) When you chose a word to describe a particular idea, you must also take into account the social context in which that word will be interpreted. Your use of "trivial", it appears now, may have been just an oversight on your part. By extension, any logically presented argument must also take context into account otherwise it runs the risk of being rendered invalid. In this case, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and move on. Secondly, your comment expressing gratitude that I do not hold a military position was a feeble attempt to dismiss my point. I encourage you to try again, but let me rephrase my argument so that you can understand it better:

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 23:03 PM
Bwong. If I have, as you put it "(ascribed) extra meanings to my words", it is because: a) Either not clear enough to interpret. In which case, you must provide a context. b) You lack the courage to state what you really think, and so veil your arguments in a manner that can be misconstrued and enable you to effectively hide your true position. c) Or you do not understand what you are really saying. In which case, I am forced to provide the context for your arguments. Regardless of the cause of your ambiguity, save the "Strawman" references for another medium. It lacks the context you need for me to appreciate it. Now, I hate taking on the role of an educator - mostly because I have much to learn in my short life; however, circumstances leave me little choice in the matter.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 07, 2005 22:17 PM
The right would rather advance a person through the hierarchy of an institution or terminate them before they would restructure their institutions by repositioning individuals and retraining were necessary in order to maximize individual performance potential. Of course one reason they don't do this is because they have structured their institutions in such a way that if an individual were given a position during restructuring which was valued less then the position they had before they would either not work with the same dedication or leave their job. That is one reason I believe all jobs must be valued the same. I believe it would lead to greater internal flexibility as well as open up institutions to greater workplace democracy or some other form of participatory management. This process has contributed to many of the problems we have been talking about. Pure valuations of jobs. Lack of realistic job expectations. Inequitable job reimbursement (due to lack of worker organizing and job actions which are due in part to the idea that “I am only at job x until I get my real job, job y.”

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 07, 2005 22:16 PM
“BTW, I am not sure if you realized you sound exactly like the rightwingers who see nothing wrong with corporate "downsizing" They maintain anyone can be retrained for more marketable skills, say, computer programming. It is a fact that many people are uncomfortable or unable to handle (relatively) complex technologies. I don't think they should be just hanged out to dry.” This is unfair. The right is not the only ones who believe in retraining. Retraining is an important component to a fast moving complex and developing economy whether it is a market economy, parecon, centrally planed or something else.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 21:52 PM
Finally, "elitist" is a meaningless label. It is a smear word of the self appointed vanguards of the exterme left. Kind of like calling someone a "commie" in more "main stream" circles.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 21:49 PM
"Inate endowment? This is also a very troubling term because it lays the foundation for further prejudices. "He/she wasn't born with this ability, and therefore cannot be trained" Its a stretch, I agree, but the potential for this attitude exists in argument in which inate endowment is used as its premise.." Why don't you take it up with Chomsky himself? Write to him. But be warned, he is more hardline than anyone I know on this subject. BTW, I am not sure if you realized you sound exactly like the rightwingers who see nothing wrong with corporate "downsizing" They maintain anyone can be retrained for more marketable skills, say, computer programming. It is a fact that many people are uncomfortable or unable to handle (relatively) complex technologies. I don't think they should be just hanged out to dry.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 21:26 PM
"..you seem fixated measuring the value of one position to another. This is inherently wrong in my opinion because it fosters elitist attitudes. As you've proved, over and over again.." There are three seperate issues here. 1.Are all jobs equally complex? 2.Is the value of a job determined simply by its complexity? 3. Is the value of an individual as a human being determined by his/her position? My answers to all three questions are "no".I cannot make it clearer than this. If you again insist on setting up strawman by mixing these seperate questions up, this is not my problem.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 21:19 PM
"My point, and its interesting that you focused only on the doctor, was to have him serve as an Army physician, but to pick up a weapon in defense of his/her own country." I don't quite understand what you were saying here. But assumming you meant what I think you meant. My answer is thank heaven you're not in charge of defens(but then maybe you don't even think there should be anyone in command because it is too "elitist") I gather you would prefer sending the doctor to combat and let a butcher operate on the wounded? In emergencies(such as when your country is attacked)you must deploy your resources most effectively. There is no luxury to entertain some misguided notion of equalitarinism if it is harmful to the job at hand, no matter how well meaning it is and how good it sounds on paper.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 21:15 PM
"To deny the implications of your argument is a form of cowardice. Trivial is a troubling word because it also dismisses those wo perform 'trivial' tasks as being invalid members. Your argument links these two concepts very closely, if not explicitly."Overt enigma "Trivial" just means it doesn't require any special skill or trianing, menal jobs, or in Luk's lingo "crap jobs", if you find that more respectful. It is not my problem that you insist on setting up a strawman by ascribing extra meanings to my words.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 19:43 PM
(ctd) One last thing, I proimise (debating with you is very stimulating) :) Chomsky says that these inherent differences should not be used a form of discrimination, but your position, albeit implicitly, advocates the recognition of the superiourity of one type of job over another. I invite others to also comment on my observations, as I may be way off, but to me - it is you who embraces "political dogmatism" by hiding behind subtle and implicit comments.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 19:38 PM
(ctd) By the way, you asked me to quote you - I'll do one better. Your constant use of the word trivial, and its implied negative connotation, is demonstrative of your elitist attitude. I doubt Chomsky shares your opinion, but it is a great disservice you perform when you choose to speak on his behalf.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 19:36 PM
(ctd) Rather, human development is a product of a combination of a variety of factors, many of them influencible (eg. environment, access to education, etc) , and of which, "inate endowment" plays only a small part. To focus on only a small part of the whole equation is very dangerous, and this is what you are doing by espousing arguments of this type.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 19:32 PM
(ctd) Arguing metaphorically, still does not convey the essence of our discussion as you seem fixated measuring the value of one position to another. This is inherently wrong in my opinion because it fosters elitist attitudes. As you've proved, over and over again. Inate endowment? This is also a very troubling term because it lays the foundation for further prejudices. "He/she wasn't born with this ability, and therefore cannot be trained" Its a stretch, I agree, but the potential for this attitude exists in argument in which inate endowment is used as its premise.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 19:28 PM
Bwong: To deny the implications of your argument is a form of cowardice. Trivial is a troubling word because it also dismisses those wo perform 'trivial' tasks as being invalid members. Your argument links these two concepts very closely, if not explicitly. My point, and its interesting that you focused only on the doctor, was to have him serve as an Army physician, but to pick up a weapon in defense of his/her own country. I will concede on one point: There is more training required for certain jobs as opposed to others, but this does not render that task trivial. If we want to get complicated, think of hazardous waste management - significantly more training (and on going upgrades of skills) are required to effectively manage hazardous wastes.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 19:15 PM
"We should also consider what exactly software engineering produces: control and management software, games (propaganda!), commercial products, software to do things that you can well do by hand" An advanced warning system for Tsunaimi would required a lot of "non trivial" software engineering.To name one example which is socially useful. Maybe you know how to it "by hand".

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Re: More on the Draft

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Jan 07, 2005 19:10 PM
As a background to my comment, I hope this link works: http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010405G.shtml. In a world with failing resources, recycling will become a necessity. Garbage will become an interesting subject. I really don't know about the relevance of software engineers. One day we will be gardening around our towns and suburbia's, because food won't be flown or driven in, and we won't have much electricity. Maybe we'll know then. We should also consider what exactly software engineering produces: control and management software, games (propaganda!), commercial products, software to do things that you can well do by hand. I admit to being too disparaging, very fine stuff has been done in software. The fact remains, that most engineers work in and for the system. Producing stuff that perpetuates the system and renders its running more 'efficient'. This isn't trivial. The word should be used for what it stands for. 'Not worthy of consideration, piddling, picayune', etc. If you think garbage collecting is trivial, try a stint with your local collectors. I'm sure they'll be happy to try you out.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 19:06 PM
" the menial tasks - as I define it, are the tasks that no one wants to do, but that need to be done." Such as what? There are many people who want to collect garbage if it pays well(and it does because of unions) "This begs the question, is there a solid reason why a doctor - or any member of society, should not participate in the defense of the society in which he/she lives in? If so, why? This is my point and the question I pose to you." When did I say that? But it is not an everyday event that you have to participate in defense, sure I hope. And I bet a doctor would be more useful as an army surgeon than to take part in combat in case there is a war. So he is still an "elite".

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 18:59 PM
BTW Chomsky does recognize the difference in abilities in individuals. In fact he is much more hard line than most people in that he said explicitly that some people are just better in doing certain things NO MATTER HOW MUCH TRAINNING the other may recieve. And then he went on to say how we treat this difference is a societal choice. Namely the inequality in mental poweress, atheletic ability, dexetrity, etc, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE REAL,should not be the basis of discrimination and oppression. I happen to completely agree. But you may call him "elitist".

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 18:44 PM
Opps, I meant to say the passage quoted above is again your words, not mine.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 18:43 PM
"By your argument, Einstein would have been dismissed as an unskilled worker and dismissed from participating in social change."

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 18:41 PM
"What's worse, is that you also translate this into a statement of an individual's potential. An individual's worth is not defined by their earning potential, as you seem to advocate by narrowing the payment levels between (and I'm using your terms) skilled and unskilled labour. Your very use of the term "skilled" and "unskilled" is troubling in this regard." Who said it is? Again it is your words, not mine. Did I say that the life of a garbage collector is less important that of a nueral surgeon. Please quote me. But again, it is a fact that some work require skills , some don't. Leaving potential(inate endowment, not "earning potential"), how long does it take to train a surgeon? How long for a garbage collector? To deny this, again a plain fact, just shows that you're a blind idealogue. "For the record, it is my belief that an individual's worth is defined by his/her contributions to society and humanity in large" I have no disagreement with that.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 07, 2005 18:36 PM
"According to most accepted definitions of the word trivial, you are already displaying what appears to be an elitist attitude." I am just calling a spade a spade. Garbage collection is trivial, anyone can do that. On the other hand not everyone can be a neural surgeon. To deny a plain fact because of politically correctness is dogmatism. "This is the crux of our argument as you seem to recognize the superiourity of one type of job over another." This is your words, not mine. The fact that some jobs are trivial doesn't mean that they are unimportant. You can live without computer programmers but you can't live without garbage collectors. But still it does not change the fact that computer programming is non trivial while garbage collecting is.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 17:49 PM
(... from above) For the record, it is my belief that an individual's worth is defined by his/her contributions to society and humanity in large; whether it is through an individual effort, or a collaborative effort. To reinforce this point, what if Einstein decided that he just wanted to collect garbage because he felt that this is the best way he can help humanity? By your argument, Einstein would have been dismissed as an unskilled worker and dismissed from participating in social change. This is how I understand it and I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong. One other item that seems to have escaped your understanding, through metaphorical references, is that we are using metaphorical references to discuss Chomsky's posting. To put this within context, the menial tasks - as I define it, are the tasks that no one wants to do, but that need to be done. A draft is one such thing. This begs the question, is there a solid reason why a doctor - or any member of society, should not participate in the defense of the society in which he/she lives in? If so, why? This is my point and the question I pose to you.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 07, 2005 17:48 PM
Bwong: "Collecting garbage is clearly "trivial" in the sense that anyone can do it and it does not require any special ability." According to most accepted definitions of the word trivial, you are already displaying what appears to be an elitist attitude. This is the crux of our argument as you seem to recognize the superiourity of one type of job over another. What's worse, is that you also translate this into a statement of an individual's potential. An individual's worth is not defined by their earning potential, as you seem to advocate by narrowing the payment levels between (and I'm using your terms) skilled and unskilled labour. Your very use of the term "skilled" and "unskilled" is troubling in this regard. (ctd ... )

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By Shannon, James at Jan 07, 2005 01:46 AM
The only thing worse than a liar is a hippocrite. Most men are both.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Shannon, James at Jan 07, 2005 01:43 AM
Most men are cowardly mommas boys afraid of their own shadow. They Talk patriotism as long as it is someone elses blood. Any excuse in the book to get someone else to die in their place. The draft should never have been eliminated and all the chickenshit conscientous objecters should have been given 30 years hard time. No parole. Every time I see a "support our troops" I could just scream. Nature says survival of the fittest. Modern Society says the cunning survive. All should serve - no exceptions - 2 years room and board - no pay - That should be the price of citizenship. Now wave your flags and say that's not fair.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Shannon, James at Jan 07, 2005 01:33 AM
My ancestors came to America in hope of finding work - any work. The were ditch diggers and sewer rats and garbage men and laborers and linesmen and plumbers and carpenters and salesmen and teachers and housekeepers and indentured servants. Working to live and feed their children. Uneducated but hard working. Soldiers and sailors in all the wars. Honest loyal and good to their core. Far too proud to take welfare or unemployment. Pepole worked to survive. Today the uneducated know nothing arrrogant native born think God and country owe the a six figure income. All men are not created equal. That is another of the lies of our time.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 05, 2005 23:56 PM
"It is not good to be dismissive of people and their jobs, their lives.." Clearly you should read more carefully before you get off the rocker. Collecting garbage is clearly "trivial" in the sense that anyone can do it and it does not require any special ability. Being trivial doesn't mean it is unimportant, this is your erronous inference. As I recall you used the term "crap jobs" to describe the same type of activities. Am I to infer that because you use the word "crap job" you must think everyone who performs "crap jobs" is a piece of crap?

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Re: More on the Draft

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Jan 05, 2005 23:28 PM
What is a trivial job? Trivial, as in 'of little substance or significance' or 'not large enough to consider or notice' or 'small and of little importance'. Is garbage collecting a trivial job? Cleaning? Cooking? Harvesting? Bricklaying? Tilling the soil? Looking after children? Plumbing? Or is advertising a trivial job? Writing software games? Having your face on tv? Shuffling paper round a desk? And if someone has a trivial job, are they trivial too? are they forgettable, expendable, not large enough to consider or notice? It is not good to be dismissive of people and their jobs, their lives. The one doing it presupposes he/she is 'good', some are not as good, and some are bad. He/she has cast him/herself in the role of 'better' & 'leading' & 'empowered to judge others'. They don't even need to think about contemporary 'politics' (rep vs dem, (british) Labour vs Tories, etc.) to become well-oiled cogs in the worldwide machinery of acquisition and oppression.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 05, 2005 06:23 AM
Except there is a large body of research which supports my view of human nature. While I am no expert, you can access it through Alfie Kohns books were it is well documented and sourced. www.alfiekohn.org “I do not assume any particular human nature other than that it exist and this places a limit on social engineering.” Keep telling yourself that. The very fact that you disagree with me is predicated upon a difference in opinion on human nature. Do you really believe your ideologically neutral?

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 05, 2005 02:16 AM
You have a certain theory about human nature. But its just a theory and as far as I can tell, full of holes. I am suspicious of grand designs (such as Parecon) Attempts to build Utopia based on any half baked theory of human nature is a sure recipe for totalitarianism. I do not assume any particular human nature other than that it exist and this places a limit on social engineering.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 05, 2005 02:14 AM
"The simple fact is Tony Hawk doesn't say I deserve special privileges because, “Well, it was really hard work.” and only a few people in the world can perfect this complex skill and only after spending years and hours of practice." No one says the nureal surgeon deserves "special treatment" because of his hard work. You miss the point entirely if that is what you think I said. My point is there are many people who would be quite happy to do the trivial jobs if they can make a good living and have a lot of free time. Even with all the educational resources and support availaible I suspect a large numeber of people would rather collect garbage and make a good living instead of working their asses off to become a neural surgeon.They may prefer to spend their free time skateboarding.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 05, 2005 01:58 AM
The question of intrinsic-extrinsic motivators have nothing to do with what we are talking about here. In many endevours one has to spend a lot of time and efforts mastering the "basics" before you can do anything non trivial, the basics are not always "fun".To use a caricature that everyone can understand, the traditional Kung Fun master would make you carry his shit bucket for a year to train your patience and stamina before he would teach you anything. I can't imagine even an eager student(intrinsically motivated to learn kihng fu) would consider it "fun" to carry the masters' potty. I am not a skateborader so I cannot say if skateboarding is one of these activities, but even if it isn't, there are plenty of others. I don't think you can argue your point based on one highly idiocynratic example.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 05, 2005 01:16 AM
steps on a star case. Often they fall risking serious injury, yet they do it again and again, until they perfect it with out any form of gain at the end other than maybe the admiration of a small subculture. The simple fact is Tony Hawk doesn't say I deserve special privileges because, “Well, it was really hard work.” and only a few people in the world can perfect this complex skill and only after spending years and hours of practice.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 05, 2005 01:16 AM
“This idea that learning must always be "fun" is a very unique North American concept. It has created a whole generation of under achieving, lazy kids with short attention span.” Then how do you explain the phenomena of skateboarding? I have never heard a single skater say it was anything but fun. Remember yesterday your old man and the insults story. This seems to actually account for the lack of fun in learning. It's not the work; it's the extrinsic motivations that kill any intrinsic interest in a given task. Again I come to skate boarding. Try learning how to do something as simple as basic as a “kick flip” were you pop your board up let it rotate and land on it with both feet maintaining your balance. Now we know for a fact that kids do this before landing on a rail and sliding down ten

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 05, 2005 00:37 AM
"Hard work is a product of people doing things they don't want to do, not the time expended doing or mastering a given task." Hard work means it takes a lot of time, concentrations and energy. Whether you enjoy it is a different issue. Moreover, what make you think that every stage involved in mastering a skill would be "fun" and enjoyable even if you bascially like what you do? I would be very intersted in being able to play Mozart. But before I get to that stage I have to work hard on the key board, learning how to read notes, etc. Not all of these are "enjoyable". Before you get to the really cool stuffs in math and science, you have to invest a lot time doing boring stuffs like algebra. There is no way around it. This idea that learning must always be "fun" is a very unique North American concept. It has created a whole generation of under achieving, lazy kids with short attention span.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 05, 2005 00:22 AM
“Even with universal access to training and education chances are not many folks would want to become nureosurgeons, rocket scientists or master builders. To be a skilled practitoner of any professional and trade demands not just talnets(which often is secondary), more importantly, a lot of hard work is required.” Hard work is a product of people doing things they don't want to do, not the time expended doing or mastering a given task. Skateboarding is probably one of the hardest and most complex, physically and mentally demanding activities there is, yet plenty of kids do it for fun.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 05, 2005 00:08 AM
Until the time when you have a population of rocket scientists and nureosurgeons arguing whether you should draft people to do menial jobs is just moot. A more realistic approach for an enlighted society would be to narrow the wage gap between the skilled and unskilled so people who perform trivial but necessary service to society should be rewarded reasonably for their effort. I have no problem with union wages for garbage collectors. Also, an enlighted society should offer all the opportunities and support for those who WANT to have a career change, whether it is a garbage collector wanting to become a nureosurgeon or vice versa.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 05, 2005 00:06 AM
I think at anytime there will be no shortage of people who are happy doing relatively trivial jobs which do not demand a lot of skills as long as they can make a good living. Even with universal access to training and education chances are not many folks would want to become nureosurgeons, rocket scientists or master builders. To be a skilled practitoner of any professional and trade demands not just talnets(which often is secondary), more importantly, a lot of hard work is required.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 04, 2005 23:45 PM
"..And that is, NO ONE should be exempt from performing what we define to be menial tasks because it is these tasks that will ultimate contribute to the development of humankind. Now, that does not translate to rotating positions for everyone: Not everyone who can be a garbage collector, for example, should be a Neurosurgeon. However, everyone can and should be a garbage collector. " I get your point. Basically I would agree with the concept. Except, there are people who are making a good living collecting garbage and doing other menial tasks(if they have unions). Where are you going to send these people when the nurosurgeons are collecting garbage? Not to mention the fact that the nureosurgeon probably wouldn't be in the best condition when he operates because he has been driving the garbage truck all morning. Incidentally, nohope does suggest rotating position for everyone on another thread.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 04, 2005 23:39 PM
"But I'm sure he'd take great pride in being appointed guardian of the children's parkOr responsible for putting the library books back in the racks. Instead, he has to grope his way painfully through endless failure at crap jobs." Luk Are "putting library books back in the rack" and "being the guardian of children's park" ultimate examples of "crap jobs"?

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 04, 2005 23:09 PM
BTW, at the risk of being off topic(again), I also don't think minority rights should be subjected to "democratic" tyranny of the majority.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 04, 2005 23:04 PM
"My fellow debators, we digress from the essence of Chomsky's essay - which is, is the mobilization of a draft army for Colonial expansion, a violation of human rights? " How can I answer this when you frame it this way? I suppose undertaking colonial expansion through military means is a violation of human right(and international law) with or without the draft.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 04, 2005 22:57 PM
"That is what democracy was meant to be: everyone has equal say" Luk Everyone has equal value does not necessarily translate to everyone has equal say. I sure should not have equal say as your doctor on whether you should have your appendix removed. I don't feel demeaned as a person as a result. Opinions have to be backed up with facts and arguments. Even if the majority "democratically" decided 1+1=3, it is still wrong. I think Mao, out of all people, has the most reasonable opinion on this one "He who has not done the research should have no say." He wrote that as a young revolutionary doing surveying among the peasants,well before he became a dictator.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 04, 2005 22:46 PM
Everyone should participate in the defense of the community/society in which they are a member of. No one position should be allowed to be exempt from this social responsibility... and I believe that it is a social responsibility. My fellow debators, we digress from the essence of Chomsky's essay - which is, is the mobilization of a draft army for Colonial expansion, a violation of human rights?

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 04, 2005 22:42 PM
Now, that does not translate to rotating positions for everyone: Not everyone who can be a garbage collector, for example, should be a Neurosurgeon. However, everyone can and should be a garbage collector. The moment we exempt any given profession from the everyday, mundane tasks, we inadvertantly elevate the status of those who are members of that profession. This is the bases for elitism. Put into context of the draft, everyone - professionals, garbage collectors and all, should either all be exempt from military service (as in a volunteer system); or they should all be forced to take part in it. Many of the European societies work on this principle: 2 years in the military, and we'll pay for your education, health care and social needs for the rest of your life. Sounds fair to me.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 04, 2005 22:38 PM
Nohope for President! Joking aside, I completely agree with Nohope. What I find most ironic, to change the topic a little, is that many Job interviews are one-on-one with your potential employer, who decides, based on what he/she wants, whether or not to hire you to work with his team. Logic would argue that the team should have a say in whether or not that individual is able to compliment and contribute to the team. Most of you are missing the point which, Ironically, Luk has grasped (no offence :)). And that is, NO ONE should be exempt from performing what we define to be menial tasks because it is these tasks that will ultimate contribute to the development of humankind.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Jan 04, 2005 22:20 PM
There is no way I'm going to ask silly joe from round the corner to take out my appendix. But I'm sure he'd take great pride in being appointed guardian of the children's park. Or responsible for putting the library books back in the racks. Instead, he has to grope his way painfully through endless failure at crap jobs. Oh, and apparently, societies where the upper class become out of touch with the people have a habit of collapsing suddenly, and lethally (See Jared Diamond, The Ends of the World). Seeing the antics of our betters, it's high time we brought the running of the planet back into line with reality. And the simple moral truth, that every person on the planet has equal value. Even the silly ones and the naughty ones. That is what democracy was meant to be: everyone has equal say. You may not like your neighbour, but this neighbour does not deserve less nor more than you.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 04, 2005 08:00 AM
“I aslo think there is a difference between cooperation(I am all for that) and allowing the incompetent to do certain jobs.” But I am not suggesting that surgical teams be chosen democratically. Clearly they have to be competent. What I am simply saying is that in standardizing the selection of individuals that are to take part in team activity we limit the number of possible combinations that could lead to identical outcomes. That is one of the failings of a society which looks are individuals in isolation instead of looking at them in context.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 04, 2005 07:26 AM
Well I am not a surgeon but then I suspect neither are you. I think it would be appropiate for surgeons to determine what kind of skills should be important for a performing surgery. It should not be determined "democratically" by the ignorant (like me)If that is "elitist" so be it. Somehow I don't think your argument of two stoogies being as good as one Norman Bethune is very convincing(but then I can be wrong since I am not a surgeon) I aslo think there is a difference between cooperation(I am all for that) and allowing the incompetent to do certain jobs.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 04, 2005 06:54 AM
There are many types of intelligence and sugary being a complex task is best preformed not by an individual but by a team each with skills that compensate and reinforce those lacking in other members of the surgery team. As with all things in life two minds are better than one, and five better than two. Even the “slowest wit” might see an engineering solution missed by the greatest minds. The key to healthy organizations I therefore argue is not individual competition between persons or departments but rather inclusively and cooperation that values every individual's contributions not just in their aria of expertise or duty but across the board. The advantage of a cooperative society is that the contributions of everyone are pooled and vetted to excellence in outcomes that would be impossible were the individuals to withhold their ideas and innovation or suppress their competitors for the sake of competitive advantage. For more info read Punished by Rewards, No Contest, Beyond Disaplin and The Brighter Side Of Human Nature by Alfie Kohn http://www.alfiekohn.org

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 04, 2005 06:53 AM
“But how are you going to build a system that on average gives the best result without some sort of selection? One can argue what the criteria should be but I don't think a system that allows any "slow witted" person to carry out surgery or build bridges would be the best system, even on average. “ But consider this. A man with a great ability to remember and navigate the human body with his mind, but a shaky hand. A man with no great mental ability but a steady hand with a predisposition for detail. Each on their own would not be good as a surgeon, but together as a team there combined abilities make for excellent performance. You say you don't want “any "slow witted" person to carry out surgery” but in making a snap judgment as to what the criteria should be for surgery you may well overlook a set of skills which are particular to a "slow witted" person. For instance greater dexterity.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 04, 2005 02:16 AM
"Not at all I want the system that will produce the best results, not the person who will. " But I think that was what r4d20 meant. But how are you going to build a system that on average gives the best result without some sort of selection? One can argue what the criteria should be but I don't think a system that allows any "slow witted" person to carry out surgery or build bridges would be the best system, even on average.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 04, 2005 00:11 AM
"Where is the merit in being beautiful or rich or smart? The're given, part of the lottery of life. It's what you do with life that gives it worth. Everyone has a right to a worhty life. Not just us." fuck yeah!

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Re: More on the Draft

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Jan 03, 2005 23:58 PM
Just next to this discussion in a Chomsky blog on freedom, someone mentioned human beings and their value. (quite a big discussion going on there) For imperialists, it is clear that some people have more value than others. I certify that each and everybody is of equal value. No price can be put on a life. Nobody is responsible for the way they were born. Nobody chose to be crippled. Thus, just as a blind person has a right to a job that gives pride (music, radio,etc...) a slow person has a right to an honest job, to stand tall and do something well. We should learn to deal with our own crap. Maybe we'll think twice about how much we throw away, and what the soap does to the frogs. And we need to learn to appreciate human beings just for being human beings, and not only for being beautiful or rich or smart. Where is the merit in being beautiful or rich or smart? The're given, part of the lottery of life. It's what you do with life that gives it worth. Everyone has a right to a worhty life. Not just us.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 03, 2005 23:03 PM
Consider this. In fact we all want to determine what is and is not trash. Cleaning/organizing/trash removal is in fact not only a task among tasks, but it is in fact connected to memory and self identity, because our environments are extensions of ourselves filled with tips and organized in such a way as to mitigate our biological failings. To allow others to take out the trash I believe to give up a piece of ourselves. I seriously question weather anyone would allow a complete stranger to take out their trash any more than they would allow a complete stranger to empty the trashcan on their computer desktop if it were not for the societal stigma which is associated with trash collection and removal and all other forms of household and office chores.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 03, 2005 22:59 PM
“Everyone can take out trash. But I can't think of a single person I know who would opt for a profession in the field given an equal opportunity to peruse their passions and interests. And therein lies the point. Until the garbage can take itself out, someone has to do it. And it shouldn't have to be delegated to societies lowest economic classes.” But what we don't know is whether this is a function the job “taking out the trash” or the social stigma which is associated with this job to which a lower rate of renumeration is part and parcel.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 03, 2005 22:33 PM
Human evolution has not been successful because of inter competition, but rather because of cooperation. Those systems, which reinforce the strengths of their members, perform the highest. That's why a US dream team can be decimated on the Olympic basketball court by players who are individual poorer players but who play together reinforcing each others strengths and mitigating each others weaknesses for an over all strategic advantage. If you don't understand that r4d20 you are in deep trouble. Because when you are sick you don't want to see the best doctor, you want the best over all healthcare system. The system in which mistakes, that are made, will quickly be recognized, acknowledged and corrected.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Xihatemegux, Nohope at Jan 03, 2005 22:32 PM
“ Do you want a slow-witted doctor? Or a dumb engineer to have designed the next bridge you drive over? When you're life is on the line you want the best.” Not at all I want the system that will produce the best results, not the person who will. The fact of nature is that all humans are fallible. That the doctor even the best doctor can have a bad day. The best engineer can be pressured into making tragically flawed decision by say an accountant who puts an unreasonable fiscal restraint.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 03, 2005 20:43 PM
But even assumming there are people who are so studpid that they can't handle any task more complex than burger flipping and garbage collecting, these menal tasks do not necessarily have to be "crap jobs" in terms of monetary compensations. One can argue that since these jobs carry little satisfaction people should be compensated more materially. There is no god given reason why the "crap jobs" have to be in the bottom of the pay scale.Even now the garbage collectors make good money thanks to the union.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 03, 2005 20:41 PM
I don't know if there is any universal measure of intellgence(IQ is not a particular reliable measure,see, for example,http://www.skeptic.com/03.3.fm-sternberg-interview.html). Even if there is such a measure I am not sure what the disperson(standard deviation) would be within a typical population. Apart from the obvious metal handicapped,it is not self evident that there are too many people who are intrinsically(cannot be remedied by any social intervention), hopelessly "slow witted" relative to the norm.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Jan 03, 2005 20:22 PM
"How come the slower witted always get the crap jobs?" Might as well ask "Why do Drunk drivers get such a bad rap"? Do you want a slow-witted doctor? Or a dumb engineer to have designed the next bridge you drive over? When you're life is on the line you want the best. I find it funny that the concept of death and safety is ignored in so many conversations like these. I won't trust stuipid people with my life or the lives of my loved ones.

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Re: More on the Draft

By K, Mr at Jan 03, 2005 04:38 AM
I think Bush 2 will bring in the draft to fight his resource war. 'Anyones son or daughter will do' there's a movie about it. Yankee land is going to get drafted and it's good for the economy! Who's gonna fight the Iranians and Syrians? Draftees that's who. i'm worrying if my fallout shelter is good enough! If i was a yankee doing the dandy i sure as hell aint taking the 'bonus' being offered by the recruiter. I aint taking a bullet for bush 2 and the jesus coalition. That's why the draft is coming to a town near you yankees. Bush's freedom war needs new bodies. Drafts coming if they are brainwashed enough to vote for the religious guy from texas they'll get a buzz cut for freedom if they like it or not. what choice do they have? Awww mommy and daddy died in god knows where trucking overpriced yadda for yankee base dandy. O wait! he don't need the draft his brainwashed hominds are going to sign up because they need a job to support their kids! draft is not coming. all yankees will sign up because theres no job in hickville and i heard they pay big bonuses. no hope other than the marines. wallmart or the airforce.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Jan 02, 2005 19:22 PM
How come the slower witted always get the crap jobs? Washing dishes and such. How is it, that those who lose out on the brain lottery, or the money lottery, or the race lottery, have to lose any chance of a job that gives pride? Don't successful people have to wipe their behinds? Shouldn't a mature person clean his own things?

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Re: More on the Draft

By Cexxx, (a).gif at Jan 02, 2005 06:02 AM
Who in their right mind would study the extra years it does take to become a neural surgeon without the extra reward (exemption from menial tasks)? I can think of a majority of people that would devote a virtual unlimited amount of time and effort to a particular interest, job, hobby , ect. w/out even bothering to consider the monetary benefits. Examples are plentiful throughout history in all relevant fields of society, including the arts and sciences, parenting, social justice movements, ect. Not everyone can do brain surgery. Truly. Not everyone wants to do brain surgery either. Just the thought of making an incision on any part of a human organ repulses me. But that has little to do whether or not a surgeon should be exempt of the least desirable tasks necessary in an advanced industrial society. Everyone can take out trash. But I can't think of a single person I know who would opt for a profession in the field given an equal opportunity to persue their passions and interests. And theirin lies the point. Until the garbage can take itself out, someone has to do it. And it shouldn't have to be delegated to societies lowest economic classes.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Jim_klee, Jimklee at Jan 01, 2005 10:27 AM
To assert that exempting skilled workers, for example neural surgeons, from menial tasks creates an elitist society misses an important point. Who in their right mind would study the extra years it does take to become a neural surgeon without the extra reward (exemption from menial tasks)? Not everyone can do brain surgery. Period. Everyone can collect garbage. Let's focus more on making these divisions based completely on merit (work ethic, capability) than socioeconomic lines and race, rather than be ridiculous and stating that neurosurgeons should clean bedpans in hospitals.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Cexxx, (a).gif at Jan 01, 2005 05:00 AM
A debate on whether a nation needs a military in 2004 in pointless. The advanced weaponry that exists today in the hands of lunatics is reason enough to have an institution dedicated to the defense of it's citizens. Furthermore, power grabs on the highest levels will never cease to exist in any world in a predictable future. What is fertile for debate is how the institution will be structured, what values and principles it will exercise, how much recources should be dedicated to it, ect. Is it just to obligate women as well as men to serve it's duties? (I realise the potential sexist assumption in the question) What is an appropriate age to train a soldier to kill? What age is considered too old to continue service? (Imagine Chomsky behind a cannon) One thing is certain. Until the society in which these questions can be openly debated amoung it's majority is built, the neccesity for reprogramming (bootcamp) and drafting at lower levels of society will be difficult to wish away so long as we agree that the military is a neccesary evil crucial to the survival of the US population.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 31, 2004 00:51 AM
For those who are hard of hearing: 1 Wipe your ass & clean the toilet when you're done Means you deal with the messes you create. 2 Take a friend's hand to cross the street Hard and dangerous jobs you do together. 3 Share the toys & sweets. speaks for itself, dunnit

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Re: More on the Draft

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 31, 2004 00:46 AM
Overt Enigma, you hit the nail on the head: nobody should be excused from menial work. Couldn't agree more. It fits with my three basic rules for civilised behaviour: 1 Wipe your ass & clean the toilet when you're done 2 Take a friend's hand to cross the street 3 Share the toys & sweets. Each is as important as the other. You'll find they apply to most things in life.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Movale, Mo at Dec 30, 2004 21:10 PM
"The old idea that the miltary can fill itself with poor people off the street is just wrong" Oh really? Is that why I had to stare down two Army recruiters in the largely poor, Latino community of Jackson Heights yesterday. I am from a similar community in Brooklyn and I served in the Army for four years to earn money for school. I was an infantry sergeant and fire team leader with the 10th Mountain Division. I can tell you from my experience and all I have seen that recruiters do target the poor and undepriveleged. I served with very few people of "means". Recruiters have quotas to meet and will use whatever sales pitch possible to meet said quota. They routinely do it among society's most desperate. There are plenty of poor men and women who thought they'd just be serving one weekend a month and two weeks a year who are now permanently disfigured or dead.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Blacksforbush, Tswe at Dec 30, 2004 00:57 AM
These so called FACTs are so wrong "That's why recruiters avoid prep schools and elite universities (except for officer and specialist training), and work hard in poor neighborhoods. " They avoid elite schools because they are banned from most due to their gay policy, they would love to recruit their. And they avoid most inner city and poor neighboorhoods because the people their are not educated or moral enough to get accepted. My friend works a recruiter and knows this first hand. He is from Harlem and they don't bother recruiting there. Because rejection rate is so high due to out of weblock children, drugs use, criminal records education level etc etc. The old idea that the miltary can fill itself with poor people off the street is just wrong.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Dec 29, 2004 22:29 PM
(... from above) Secondly, aside from the inherent flaw in US administration's current strategy, if the threat of terrorism against the US is clear and present, than some type of mobilization of the masses MUST occur and is arguably justifiable because it is in the immediate defense of the country. I do not, however, know in what form this mobilization will take - but I can say that it requires much more thought than to simply adopt the "Let's get them before they get us" attitude. This also begs for a larger debate.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Dec 29, 2004 22:27 PM
A citizen's army, in my opinion, is only effective in the defense of the nation in which the citizens reside. The reason for this is that each participant of the army has a personal stake in the outcome of the impending conflict. By inference, the citizen's army can only be effectively mobilized if their country is under a clear and present danger. To mobilize such an army under the pretext of a preemptive strike, where the danger is certainly not clear, if it is present at all, will undermine the effectiveness of such an effort. Hence, the ineffectiveness of the US troops in Iraq. The larger issue of whether or not conscription for the war on terror is a violation of human rights, is much more complicated. First, it is nearly impossible to dedicate tangible resources (such as the US Army), to fight an intangible or conceptual war. The very pretext for mobilizing US Forces to combat terror is then, therefore, flawed because it is doomed to ineffectiveness. In a metaphoric sense, the current US military action to combat terrorism is the equivalent of trying to fight the boogeyman of your nightmares with an M16. It simply cannot be done. ...ctd

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Dec 29, 2004 22:04 PM
Please pardon the spelling and gramatical errors in my previous post. Too much holiday cheer.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Enigma, Overt at Dec 29, 2004 22:03 PM
Luk, The inherent flaw in your social contract is to exclude those exempt those that are highly skilled so that they my focus on their professions. By exempting these individuals from the "menial" tasks of society, you are, in effect, creating an elitist society. But let us take this in the context of conscription which, by your argument, would seek to exclude the professionals from society. Isn't this what is happening now? The essence to cooperative construction of our society (which I really like the idea of) is to involve ALL members in menial tasks - regardless of their chosen professions.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 29, 2004 02:41 AM
Of course, some jobs require high degrees of skill. But I do think a lot of police work, tax and social security administration, and even some of the hospital work, could very well be parcelled out in this way. This leaves room, I hope, for highly skilled people, like dedectives, doctors, economists and musicians to continue practicing their skills to their satisfaction. It would have to be a contract that everybody agreed on. I wouldn't want to have to find out ways to enforce this. Civil conscription might become a popular idea, but I have my doubts. People don't like to be put to harness. They can and do give freely from the kindness of their hearts though, if you give 'em half a chance.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 28, 2004 20:21 PM
"If all of us had to perform a temporary stint at all of the necessary but unpleasant services a society needs, we would all be intimately involved in the construction of our society" There is some merit of what you say in regard to things like garbage collection and pumping(i.e menal jobs that don't require a lot of skills). But I would be very nervous if everyone gets a stint to be a heart surgeon or air traffic controller. Some degree of specialization is inevitable in a complex society.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Fa521803, Lukocipedistas at Dec 28, 2004 16:26 PM
IMHO, more jobs could be advantagously conscripted. Not just garbage collection and unplugging toilets (shit work that earns oodles to plumbers in my area) but any job that has a social function could be meted out to every citizen. I'm thinking about nursing, childcare, policing, justice, tax administration, government administration, etc. I know this is pie in the sky, but consider it. If all of us had to perform a temporary stint at all of the necessary but unpleasant services a society needs, we would all be intimately involved in the construction of our society. We would not have cops professionally obsessed with criminal behaviour, but citizen cops. We could all contribute hard labour in our youth, and mature judgment in old age. Calculating by what vague idea I have of the number of people employed in these jobs, I guess we wouldn't need to sacrifice more than a few weeks a year. Yes, I know, when pigs fly...

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Re: More on the Draft

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Dec 28, 2004 04:58 AM
then again... in a just society where everybody is living decently, no matter how high the pay, there may not enough people willing to risk their lives, fighting in a just war against alien invaders. in cases like this, i would support an equitable draft.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Phillipkim, Hairjello at Dec 28, 2004 04:51 AM
i've thought about who will do the crap work (being a soldier, garbage, flipping burgers, mowing grass, farm labor, sewer repairman) in a more just society. I don't think it should be parcelled out equitably for each of us to do. we can keep it "volunteer" by just raising the pay until somebody will want to do it. ya know, the market. is that so bad? i mean we're not trying to achieve perfect equality of pay and lifestyles. just equal opportunity and a decent, comfortable living for all. people have different interests and priorities. and by lowering the number of work hours per week, the crap work will be a little more equally distributed.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Johnson, Walter at Dec 28, 2004 01:06 AM
One of the "neo-conservative" ideas that doesn't get much attention is this notion of the "revirilization of America". In this view America has become "soft" and "decadent" since the Vietnam debacle.Bringing back the draft or mobilizing the population for a permanent state of war (the "war on Terror") will help to restore the "martial virtues" and stop the societal "rot" created by the "self-indulgent" and "narcissistic" Sixties generation.

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Re: More on the Draft

By Johnson, Walter at Dec 28, 2004 00:50 AM
In any society based on inequality the idea of "equitable conscription" is an absurdity.

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