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Oil for Food Farce

By Noam Chomsky at Feb 07, 2005

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I presume the main motivation is to make sure that no one pays attention to the real scandal: that the US-imposed sanctions slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people, devastated the society, compelled the population to rely on Saddam Hussein for survival, and probably saved him from the fate of comparable monsters supported by Washington and London, including those now in office, all overthrown from within despite US-UK support to the very end in some of the worst cases. That's definitely not something that can be allowed to enter public discussion. Another motive could well be to divert attention from the fact that whatever corruption there may have been at the UN is scarcely a toothpick on the mountain of the vast corruption of the occupying authorities. In fact, it's rather comical to watch. First, the famous $20 billion stolen by Saddam turns out to be mostly thanks to the US nodding its head at illegal shipments to its allies Turkey and Jordan. What passed through the Gulf was thanks to US orders to the Navy not to intercept it. The rest passed through a committee controlled by Washington. Volcker reported that maybe $1.7 billion is traceable to UN failure to keep to proper auditing (with the complicity of Washington); the largest part of that figure went to the Kuwaiti military. The NY Times, Feb. 4, has a front-page article on the UN scandal focusing on the terrible crimes of Benan Sevan, who is charged with having received $160,000 over 4 years from an aunt in Cyprus who doesn't seem to have independent wealth. Moving on to p. 6, a small item at the bottom at the right reports that "Against the advice of its own auditors, the Army said yesterday that it would not hold back tens of millions of dollars each month from the Halliburton Company until the company justifies bills for past work in Iraq." The figures involved amount to many billions of dollars. But apart from the farce, I suppose the main purposes are to undermine any likelihood, however remote, that the hideous crimes of the sanctions themselves will ever receive attention, and to strike another blow at the UN, which is hated for the same reasons that international law, the World Court, the ICJ, etc., are hated: they might impose some difficulties on Washington's free resort to violence. And elites cannot be happy at the fact that the population continues to express strong support for international institutions -- I presume the reason why the crucially important poll results on these matters, released right before the elections, were scarcely even reported.

Comment On This Blog Post  See All Comments (64)

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Joshkan1, Dj_menno at Feb 14, 2005 23:59 PM
Seriously folks, the "pretenders" can be ignored. There are approximately 90 posts here, and by post number 3 the fact that HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of INNOCENT IRAQIS have died as a result of the Food for Oil program has gone unmentioned. Let that sink in for a moment. Kids, like my two beauties, dead, starved...grandparents, like my grandmother that died this week, dead, starved. I have much respect for the nature and content of the conversation that has been taking place here, but folks, we are talking about hundreds of thousands of dead civilians as a result of the program. Madeline Albright said in 1996, it (dead innocents) is an acceptable cost. Focus the energy and knowledge on the problem and shed light on it for the blind. realpc is not worth the time or energy.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 12, 2005 07:17 AM
"So you are going to dismiss an argument due to one spelling error? Classic!" WTGN, That's no mere spelling mistake; you did not simply misspell 'pray' thinking that it's supposed to be 'pray tell'- you are dumb enough to think that it's 'prey tell' instead of 'pray tell'. I beat the piss out of you, boy.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Garrett, Dana at Feb 12, 2005 00:13 AM
[I posted this earlier today & oddly it didn't appear] Many motivations can account for the USA's hue and cry about this scandal. Certainly, Chomsky has hit on some of the motivations. Three others come to mind: 1. Revenge. Simple revenge because the UN had no interest in participating in the USA's immoral war on Iraq. Therefore, the USA elites, whose virtual isolation in world public opinion exposed their war as an act of naked imperialist aggression, are using the scandal as an opportunity for payback. 2. By exploiting the scandal, the USA might be softening up the UN to comply with as yet unannounced USA sponsored acts of aggression against other nations. Should that fail, then 3. The scandal can propagandized as “grounds” for considering the UN as incompetent and treacherous, thereby providing the USA with a pretext to once again to act unilaterally.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Feb 11, 2005 18:31 PM
I've had an idea for a while and though that I would run it by you all. I truly believe that for a non-athoritarian and non-capitalist movement to begin, that it would have to start in the US. My reasing behind this is my feeling that anything that resembles a successful non-capitalist state will be supressed and if need be destroyed by the US to remove any examples. My second reason is along the same lines but has to do with the economic dominance of the US and their ability to suppress though economic manoeuverings. Because the US is the global super power than the US is the point of focus of the movement. That if we could sucessfully turn the US then the whole world might follow (I do not mean world domination, only example lead progress). Feel free to point out any and all holes in my reasoning, it is not a strong theory but one that needs to be worked out.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Feb 11, 2005 17:18 PM
Following this discussion several important points should be reiterated: 1. It has never been - and can never be proven - that a socialist movement will always result in totaliatarisnism. 2. The US has opposed any non-capitalist movement from emerging and has occasionally supported those that slipped away from it -and that are totalitarian dungeons. It knows that those regimes set no example to most people. 3. What the US afraid if is those socialist movements that could potentially be successful - and its desperation of stamping them out shows how afraid of them it is. This point alone shows that they are indeed possible to construct - especially in an industrial society.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 10, 2005 06:06 AM
"Before you post here again. ... It's useful to know how to form an argument if you plan to invalidate other people's." Sigma, You realize, don't you, that our appeal to the rules logic and other standards of scholarship are taken by our enemies as a sign of weakness. Their replies drip with condescension towards us poor, benighted misfits. We have to work so hard to make ourselves heard- how could we be right?. They, on the other hand, don't have to argue for their position because, let's face it, they are on top. It's might makes right, of course, a fallacy as old as logic itself. Their argument always come down to that. But, again, as long as we continue to play Socrates towards their Thrasymachus future generations and, perhaps, many young people todays will regard them with the reprobation that they deserve, as decent-minded people today now regard Stephen Douglas, who also made a living being an apologist for evil.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 10, 2005 01:36 AM
"I bet you do boy, keep eating your Wheaties and some day………" You are the boy WTGN. Sigma is putting an intellectual wipping on you and you are too stupid to recognize it.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Gammon101, Bwong at Feb 10, 2005 00:39 AM
There is no proof that there is an equilbrium point which the system will inevitably move towards(an "attractor"in math jargon), the system can be(and is likely to be)chaotic. Furthermore, a mathematical equilbrium does not necessarily correspond to maximal human happniness, whatever that means. The "market" running on its own can reach an "equilibrium" where half the population simply cannot make a living because they undercut each other out of business as a result of competitions. Our collective extinction is also an equilibrium point. Finally, even if there is an equilibrium point which also corresponding to maximal human happiness and that the invisible hand( the market dynamics) will eventually steer us there(i.e. the equilibrium is an attractor for the market dynamics), still you won't know how long will it take for that to happen(a thousnad years?) and what kind of path will take us there. For example, that optimal state may be reached through starving half of humanity to death.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Gammon101, Bwong at Feb 10, 2005 00:37 AM
Everyone who lives in the real world knows that unregulated competition eventually would destroy everything. The perfect free market is just a philospher's fantasy. Adam Smith spoke of the "invisible hand", implying that the dynamics of the market will eventually leads to an equilibrium. This is totally unfound arm chair phiosophizing.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Feb 10, 2005 00:21 AM
Atempts to claim a "natural" basis for capitalims is also a fallacy. Competition amongst single species is found almost no where in nature. Sure there is competition between species, but the most successful species have been those that have worked coopertively. Species that form packs, herds etc. have historically been much more successful than those that have not. Take humans, only through the formation of societies and cooperation have they advanced.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 10, 2005 00:20 AM
"But i think there is some legitamcy to the arguement that he (realpc) should be ignored (something I haven't done)" I agree damphouse; if someone could come up with a way of ignoring him without giving young readers the impression that he has won I would be all for it. For now I just have to go with my gut instincts, which tell me to humiliate him as much as possible.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Feb 10, 2005 00:17 AM
A society based on a "Free Market" has never existed, it is a utopian idea created by ideologs. Your arguement that all attempts at what you call socialism have lead to totalitarinism could also by applyed to society in general. All attempts to have societies have lead to totalitarianism.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 10, 2005 00:15 AM
Sigma 6, It's such a pleasure watching you wipe the floor with WTGN. (I just gave up swearing for Lent otherwise I would have put this point in more graphic terms).

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Gammon101, Bwong at Feb 09, 2005 23:55 PM
The oridinary people, small artisians, peasants who were marginalized in this process resisted it with tooth and nail and their resistance is met with great brutality. Tell Charles Dickens that capitalism does not require forced conformity. Dickens was no radical. We see this process is still going on in the third world if one is willinging to pay attention. We should not confuse a society with a market with capitalism, for which the society itself becomes an appendage of the market. In the words of Michael Polyani, capitalism was a "great upheaval" in history. It only becomes entrenched through great coercion and bruatality. It is only through ignorance of history and wilful forgetfulness can one claim capitalism is the "natural system".

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Gammon101, Bwong at Feb 09, 2005 23:54 PM
Capitalism was forced on an unwilling population everywhere in the world. In England capitalism began with the enclousre, which was the massive expulsion of the peasants from the land they tilled for generations.American capitalism would have been dead in the womb without the black slaves working the plkantations and the land stolen from the Native. In all places where the "capitalist revolution" occured "the commons" was systematicaly appropiated and plundered to create "private property" for the few. In the process communities were destroyed, people were displayed and the rigid work code of the factory is enforced on formerly free people. When some French town put up a clock tower in the late 18th centry the town people went on rioting because they saw the clock as a symbol of the emergent tyranny of capitalist work ethics. Capitalism does not require forced conformity?

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Gammon101, Bwong at Feb 09, 2005 23:49 PM
"I would argue as Adam Smith did, that greed is capitalisms biggest advantage, not disadvantage, and that as Muravchik argues so well the attempt to force humans to confrom to a society counter to this has been the driving force for tyrany in the past 150 years." Fisrt of all, I am not sure Smith actually argued for greed.David Ricardo was a much more credible spokeperson than Smith was. But leaving this aside, the premise that "capitalism" arose out of "human nature" and therefore does not required "forced conformity" like other system is simply factually wrong Whoever this Murachik is (padon my ignorance), if that was what he argued as you stated then he has no knowledge whatsoever about the history of capitalism.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Tdc, Wtgn at Feb 09, 2005 23:04 PM
Ah, so, because this status quo exists, and functions in this way, and these people argue that attempts to force people to behave in certain ways cause tyrranies; capitalism is the only real option, any attempt to find an alternative will immediately result in dictatorship, and everyone who isn't a capitalist (particularly Chomsky) is implicitly 'trying to put a rifle to everyone's back'? Well, lets see. All alternatives to capitalism (speaking purely of) that have been implemented in the past 150 years have led to totalitarian states. Fascist corporatism, socialism, communism, and all variations on these themes have always worked out the same way, police states, terrorized populations and dictatorships. When you know the most likely outcome of a particular course of action is not desirable, and remain silent or worse advocate for that course of action what does that say? ”that's amazing. I wish my insights were as penetrating as yours. Oh for the power to broadly and unilaterally characterize everything that disagrees with me as objectively evil using only the power of rhetoric.” I bet you do boy, keep eating your Wheaties and some day………

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Tdc, Wtgn at Feb 09, 2005 22:55 PM
"Chomsky knows this (though I acknowledge that there is no way of knowing that he knows (or believes) it)" Of course he knows this, anyone who has not been living in a cave for the past 100 years knows this. Chomsky has made references to sad state of affairs in Mao's China, the USSR, Cambodia and North Korea (all be it after it was no longer relevant). Why he still continues to advocate for those who follow in the paths of the above mentioned regimes is beyond me, but one could quite easily come to the conclusion that since every experiment in state socialism has resulted in totalitarianism and a police state, then one could also conclude that those who still advocate for it know what the results of any future "successes" will be.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Tdc, Wtgn at Feb 09, 2005 22:03 PM
"Straw man, asshole. Prof. Chomsky is not suggesting putting a rifle in anyone's back." Of course he is. He knows (whether he will admit to it or not is another questions) that the worldview he holds and the movements that he has attached himself to have no other outcome than this: forced conformity and participation at gunpoint. How “radical”.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Tdc, Wtgn at Feb 09, 2005 21:59 PM
"the primary disadvantage of a capitalist system is that humans are inherently greedy" I would argue, as Adam Smith did, that greed is capitalisms biggest advantage, not disadvantage, and that as Muravchik argues so well, the attempt to force humans to confrom to a society counter to this has been the driving force for tyrany in the past 150 years. "so you're gonna have to deal with guys like me who are going to try to keep you doing things you don't want to be doing so I can use you for cheap labour." Don't worry, I am a big boy now and I can take care of myself.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Tdc, Wtgn at Feb 09, 2005 21:51 PM
So you are going to dismiss an argument due to one spelling error? Classic! As far as Chomsky and his ol' bud Pol Pot, I am sure you have read Distortions at the Forth Hand? http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/chomsky.htm#chvi Oh yes, I know, he was only trying to shed some light on media manipulation, which must explain why so many people, including those who would normally be friendly with him, were rather sickened by his remarks on the situation.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 09, 2005 20:44 PM
WTGN "... prey (sic) tell ...." You can't even spell, moron, and we are supposed to take your mean-spirited views seriously? And I want to know where Prof. Chomsky voiced support for the policies of Pol Pot.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Feb 09, 2005 19:57 PM
"I have an better idea, how bouts I own my own farm, or stay out of agriculture all together." --------------------------------------------- Own your own farm, under capitalist accumilation no body owns their own farm anymore. How about we all stay our of agriculture, we can let the third world grow our food. Now thats security...

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Tdc, Wtgn at Feb 09, 2005 19:38 PM
Straw man, asshole. Prof. Chomsky is not suggesting putting a rifle in anyone's back. Well, he did not seem to object all that much when the Khmer Rouge was doing it ...... Oh sorry, I forgot, wasnt he simply protesting the medias vilification of another "good example" (if the Khmer Rouge was a good example, what prey tell is a bad one)? "Then you can be a wage slave and you can work for me. Here take this plow and I will give you 50 cents on every dollar I make." I have an better idea, how bouts I own my own farm, or stay out of agriculture all together.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 09, 2005 19:34 PM
Sigma-6, God bless you.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 09, 2005 06:28 AM
holon, I hope that you will reconsider your decision to leave us. Your thoughts are right on the mark. I for one will not accept what realpc is trying to do to the good Prof.'s blog. Though I have voiced a great deal of respect for bwong's knowledge of our subject, I think that, sadly, there comes a time when you have to put individuals such as realpc to shame and that this is one of them. Far too much is at stake to allow him to go on obscuring the truth.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Leddy, Paul at Feb 09, 2005 03:00 AM
sigh, sucker born every minute. plus plenty of good people to back up the deceiver's lying face. and co-conspirators on the payroll to play innocent, braying sheep. shame on you who take the bait in the name of "fairness". let me tell you about "fairness"; read the paper. burn the bastard, outcast him. you can you know? if he is so lonely for the truth, why does every paper in this great country, and across the world, speak with his voice? arent you sick to your stomach? have your fun with the deceiver. pump your mental muscle. i am out! and shame this fool is invited again and again to voice his small and feeble "ideas" (oh, so radically new, thank you, thank you for the information, master; yes, i know ayn rand) in a chomsky forum. i am ashamed that chomsky has to see this kind of acceptance of obvious tricksters and diluters. i've had my say. i leave it to the community to smoother the world with noise. or not?

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Feb 09, 2005 02:59 AM
"Even if that were true, being a wage slave sure beats pulling a plow on a collectivized farm with a rifle in my back." -------------------------------------------- Then you can be a wage slave and you can work for me. Here take this plow and I will give you 50 cents on every dollar I make.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Feb 09, 2005 02:56 AM
And as far as the US occupation corruption, what exactly is he talking about? -------------------------------------------- Are you kidding..... Have you heard of a company called Halliburton? Not only did they steal form the Gov't on no-bid contracts and are currently under nine, yes nine, gov't investigations for fraud. They also last year did $68 million dollars with business with IRAN. Including selling them equiptment to build atomic centrifuges. It true.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 09, 2005 01:48 AM
"Even if that were true, being a wage slave sure beats pulling a plow on a collectivized farm with a rifle in my back." Straw man, asshole. Prof. Chomsky is not suggesting putting a rifle in anyone's back.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 09, 2005 00:51 AM
The last post should be addressed to bwong and the first sentence quoted. Sorry.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 09, 2005 00:50 AM
Let realpc express his doubt. I don't think it is right to browbeat people who disagree with you like they do in rightwing blogs. Let him express his doubt, yes, but he should be held up to ridicule for his lack of honesty and his refusal to meet the standards of rational discourse, such as admitting when you are clearly wrong, as I have repeatedly asked him to do. There are young minds at stake here and he should not be allowed to pollute them. Just because he "sounds" reasonable does not mean that he is, in fact that's what makes his type of opposition insidious. Dick Cheney sounds reasonable too. Those who are labeling him a obscurantist are on to something and I share their concern over being distracted from the substance of Prof. Chomsky's posts. However, I can handle him by myself, if you like, leaving everyone else to discuss the good Prof.'s posts without having to deal with real's bullshit.

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By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Feb 08, 2005 22:57 PM
So in this case we should all just shut up and enjoy it?

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Tdc, Wtgn at Feb 08, 2005 22:20 PM
"capitalism" is intrinsically and structurally unjust Even if that were true, being a wage slave sure beats pulling a plow on a collectivized farm with a rifle in my back.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Tdc, Wtgn at Feb 08, 2005 22:19 PM
Hmm, I always knew Chomsky was a shill for Marxists thugs the world over, but now he is schilling for the UN? Will wonders ever cease! A few (out of many) factual errors with this latest McChomsky article. The Volcker report puts the OIF fraud figure at 9 billion, not 1.7 billion. And as far as the US occupation corruption, what exactly is he talking about? No oil was smuggled out of the Gulf, it was all over land. The over land smuggling was done with the OIF's auditors monitoring pipelines. And for the Lincoln quote, it is fabricated, like so many of the quotes left wingers use to "indict" capitalist America. http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln.htm http://www.alincolnassoc.com/Newsletters/1-1.pdf

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 08, 2005 22:05 PM
"Corruption" is never a big issue with Chomsky. His whole point is that "capitalism" is intrinsically and structurally unjust" Yes I get Chomsky's whole point. I do not agree with it.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Gammon101, Bwong at Feb 08, 2005 21:40 PM
Let realpc express his doubt. I don't think it is right to browbeat people who disagree with you like they do in rightwing blogs. At somepoint leftists have to reach out to a skeptical public if they hope to build any broad base movement other than talking among themselves. I think it is important to engage people who disagree with you in dialogues. Honestly realpc doesn't sound like some rightwing wackjobs you find on other blogs. His views are sort of main stream(i.e. shared by many people)

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Gammon101, Bwong at Feb 08, 2005 21:27 PM
To make an analogy. Slavery is intsrinsically unjust because it allows the ownership of other human beings and using them as tools. This has little to do with whether you beat your slaves daily or not.The brutality of some slave owners is not the basis of a sound argument against slavery. To focus exclusively on slave beating would imply slavery is ok as long as laws are put in place to punish abusive slave owners in the same way that we punish sadistic people who torture their pets. Chomsky certainly didn't make this mistake. You are free to be disagree with Chomsky, but at least try to understand his argument first.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Gammon101, Bwong at Feb 08, 2005 21:26 PM
realpc you're missing the whole point of Chomsky's critique of capitalism. It is hard to believe you have read much of his writing as you have claimed. "Corruption" is never a big issue with Chomsky. His whole point is that "capitalism" is intrinsically and structurally unjust even if you can find a way to implement it in a way free of corruption and other irregularities.(I use the term "capitalism" in a loose sense as NC is more particular about such terms)

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Leddy, Paul at Feb 08, 2005 21:14 PM
i know your methods. do you think i am a fool? i am calling you out. and you fight with innocence. why dont you go hang with your type. i dont believe you are confused at all, oh innocent little boy. all i want is for people on this list to stop paying attention to you in any serious manner, but to confront you for what you are, continuously, until your goals are made moot and you go away. the frist step in that is to give you an identity. your turn mr enlightened, to teach me

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Leddy, Paul at Feb 08, 2005 21:10 PM
look you anonymous coward: who are you? i want a name, so you can go on the books for what you are attempting to do. and so research can be performed, longterm, on your exercise. you want mine? just ask. i am not afraid of the light

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 08, 2005 21:04 PM
"make a fckng choice about what you believe in, and stop wondering it if is the right one, or hope to change anyone else's mind. once you know, stop the discussion with right-wingers" Right -- don't question your beliefs or you might get confused. Don't listen to any opposing views or you might start to wonder if your truth is the complete and only truth. Are you one of the superior Enlightened ones? Or just another confused mortal like realpc.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Leddy, Paul at Feb 08, 2005 19:40 PM
here is a libertarian troll back in 1993, disrupting an anarchist newsgroup. if this link doesnt work, just search for "Carter Butts anarchy" on google, under http://groups-beta.google.com/ better yet, search now for "Dena L Bruedigam" in the alt.society.anarchy group. here is where she is today: http://www.freepress.org/dispatches/2004/display/134 Dena L. Bruedigam, Vice Chair Libertarian Party of Ohio get these people's realname and out them. that is the major bit of work the left needs to do. identify the sophists! if you read the posts from this time period, you will see the libertarians outnumbering the anarchist 5 to 1. why? it goes on their resume. now dont you feel stupid, knowing talking to these people is exactly what they want, for you to be distracted? so they can laugh at their cocktail parties about the mindgames they played with you? seriously http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.pro-wrestling/browse_thread/thread/2f1809ae24962051/99a89d38d54a767e?q=Carter+Butts+anarchist&_done=%2Fgroups?q=Carter+Butts+anarchist&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#99a89d38d54a767e

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Leddy, Paul at Feb 08, 2005 19:22 PM
look, people on the left, as disorganized and powerless a mess it is, have to wake up to the fact that they need to completely ignore sophists like realpc. i assume the worst about who these people are and how they magically show up again and again, with great persistence, to troll any left-leaning posting forum; i have seen in now since 1990 on internet forums. they come in as a crowd and make a ruckus. they often succeed in distraction and in wasting everyone's precious time by going back to root arguments everyone has already parsed one million times. or just stirring up emotions with over the top, ridiculous statements. assume these people are cointelpro. make a fckng choice about what you believe in, and stop wondering it if is the right one, or hope to change anyone else's mind. once you know, stop the discussion with right-wingers out to take up your clock-cycles, and frustrate your energies. stfu, listen, and talk to chomsky, not limbaugh jr. be happy you even have such a wonderful opportunity

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Davidberge, Daveos at Feb 08, 2005 08:57 AM
Likewise wish others would recognize the "realpc" agenda for what it is; distract from Noam. He's laughing with every post that contains a reference to him with nothing to do with Noam's original thought. A shame sham really, befuddle what could otherwise be constructive dialog surrounding some valuable research made available by one of our times great minds. We're suckers to reference whoever it is and distract from the topic at hand. The topic is "Oil For Food Farce" folks. It's spooky to witness the information manipulation tactics that the US government has grown to wield such that their own atrocities can be camouflaged while international institutions get fleeced for evil doing. Where's the check and balance? Catastrophic failure!?

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Jbrownil, Jbrownil at Feb 08, 2005 08:20 AM
This is exactly why a different system is not only possibile but necessary. What you advocate(centralized power) is a total contradiction of your logic on how a society should be organized(democratically). Call it Anarchism or whatever you'd like but it is not idealistic to envision a functioning democratic world. I'm not surprised you think this way, that's standard. Maybe you should do some homework before you comment. You are simply repeating corporate propaganda.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Jbrownil, Jbrownil at Feb 08, 2005 08:19 AM
Realpc: Even by your own admission there will always be people that, when in positions of power, will abuse that power. "Capitalism" as we know it today is by its very nature a hierarchical power structure where the few control the many. So where is this mythical balance you speak of? There is no control when the economy and power is in the hands of a minority. As far as I can tell it is literally impossible to have meaningful democracy when private power rules. No balance between any number of centralized power systems can be achieved when, as you said "every system of government ever devised has committed its share of violence and oppression" and "human beings in power will, one way or another, take advantage of that power".

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 08, 2005 07:53 AM
Robin Hood and others trying to educate realpc, That is his trademark- not giving arguments, but just shooting his mouth off. But he is acually doing us a favor: as long as he posts, we can use him as our paradigm of an asshole. It's like we're putting a warning sign next to him for those young readers coming to the good Prof.'s blog to find out why their world is so fucked up. A sign that says 'Here is what you want to avoid becoming at all costs'.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Mikesances, Msances at Feb 08, 2005 03:50 AM
Thanks for clarifying your views on what a utopia would or would not look like. You still haven't responded to anything that Noam actually wrote in the post, which is probably why no one else is paying attention to you.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Jbrownil, Jbrownil at Feb 08, 2005 03:34 AM
"...anarchism is just ridiculous." Realpc: judging by your previous posts I'll assume you have no clue what Anarchism is. When you advocate 2 versions of often similar centralized power systems I lose even more faith. When you say Capitalism isn't inherently "evil", is that supposed to be an argument for it? Or does that just mean that being a wage slave can be a positive thing as long as our masters don't abuse anymore than that? Even that is assuming the world COULD be a better place under the current order. I don't see any evidence of that.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Davidberge, Daveos at Feb 08, 2005 02:54 AM
ap2k, Here's a link to a reference on the Lincoln quote that gives some details about it's origination and authentic sources where it can be found. http://www.ratical.org/corporations/Lincoln.html I don't get why the comment spam even gets the attention here. Noam provides insightful and thought provoking posts that deserve far more exploration than the inflaming comments.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 08, 2005 02:39 AM
I do not advocate defeatism. I am against the simple-minded ideologies in which so many progressives have blind faith, and I am also against the simple-minded ideologies of many capitalists. I believe in opposing evil in whatever context it appears. The crooks in high places in US corporations should be prosecuted and prevented from ever again attaining power. Similar for dictators like Saddam. Capitalism is not inherently evil; it depends on how well it is managed, and it needs to be balanced with socialism. But too much of either -- capitalism or socialism -- is a recipe for oppression. And anarchism is just ridiculous.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Mikesances, Msances at Feb 08, 2005 02:29 AM
Realpc, none of what you are saying has any bearing on what Noam actually says in this post. You have no clue what "everyone" or even particular people here "stand for." This isn't about advocating or arguing against grand theories to run the world. The line of argument you're taking, moreover--totally irrelevant to the Oil for Food topic--could just as easily be used as justification for Saddam Hussein's worst crimes. Hey, all governments are corrupt, right? Then why even bother doing anything. If you're going to advocate defeatism it's puzzling why you'd bother posting to such a forum in the first place.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Adabanasik, Ap2k at Feb 08, 2005 01:22 AM
daveOS, Fully agree...won't even comment on realpc...we should just ignore this person until he/she goes away... Where is that Lincoln quote from?

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Davidberge, Daveos at Feb 08, 2005 01:09 AM
While it is commical, and criminally hypocritical, the crying shame of the atrocity is fully intact. That the business interests of the US government can go unchecked while officials of the UN play fall guys to the exposure of the corruption makes me shiver. "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. ... corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed." Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Allen, Robert at Feb 08, 2005 00:22 AM
realpc, You are being made to look like the fool that you are and a crybaby to boot. (Good work Robin Hood and msances.) The sort of economic system Chomsky envisages has not been tried, thus the failure of other systems does not show that it would also fail. The chief goal of anarchism is to abolish "powerful organizations." Moreover, you have no evidence whatsoever for the claim that every human being would be corrupted by holding a position of power. None. You are not a psychologist nor have you conducted any empirical studies to substantiate this claim. You are just shoooting your mouth off as usual.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Feb 08, 2005 00:20 AM
The Soviet Union made the argument that every system has some corruption and no matter what system is used it's the people that are corrupt, not systems. Therefore anything besides "socialism" unthinkable - there is no need to think about a more humane world since people will corrupt whatever system they live under. This shows your narrow-minded logic realpc - all humans are sh*ts - because you are. You have never proven otherwise on this board.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Feb 08, 2005 00:17 AM
What you are sayin, realpc that there can be no alternative to capitalism (what you term anti-capitalism). I have heard the same argument made by the elites of the Soviet Union. This argument exposes your shallow thinking.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Feb 08, 2005 00:15 AM
Chomsky does not advocate an particulat "system", he merely wants people to see past the propaganda and deceit that has been veile over their eyes. What they do witht he knowledge is up them. I for one do believe that capitalism is probably one of the most abominable creations of human kind ever devised.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 08, 2005 00:06 AM
Yes you can start up little communes here and there that get along for a while. But in the long run no government or powerful organization can be trusted. What all of you here stand for -- anti-capitalism -- is not the answer.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Feb 08, 2005 00:04 AM
RealPC doesn not even see that the death of 1 million civilians is more important than its alleged corruption.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 08, 2005 00:04 AM
Noam believes that capitalism is undesirable and should be abolished. All sorts of violence and oppression stem from capitalism, and it is possible to develop a humane system without capitalism. Right? Ok, here is the central fallacy in his belief system -- every system of government ever devised has committed its share of violence and oppression. Whether it was religious or communist or capitalist, some degree of violence and oppression resulted. And there is an explanation for this, known to the founders of the US -- human beings in power will, one way or another, take advantage of that power. Their intentions might even be good, but their actions will often fall far short of ideal.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Mikesances, Msances at Feb 07, 2005 23:30 PM
Talk about a straw man. The point is not who is more prone to corruption--though in fact, the figures cited by Noam seem to make that quite clear. If you aren't going to bother answering the actual argument contained in the post then there's little reason for anyone to take your comment seriously.

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Re: Oil for Food Farce

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Feb 07, 2005 21:53 PM
Do you honestly believe the UN and other international institutions are any less prone to corruption than the US?

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