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Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Noam Chomsky at Oct 12, 2004

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What's happened since 1982 (when I wrote The Fateful Triangle) is a mixed story. Some of it is reviewed in the extended updated edition. In some respects, there has been some progress. Official Israeli policy in 1989 (a coalition government, Labor-Likud) was that there can be no "additional Palestinian state" between Jordan and Israel (the implication being that Jordan already is a Palestinian state, so there is no issue of Palestinian self-determination) and that the future of the occupied territories must be settled in accord with the "guidelines" of the Israeli government. That was endorsed by the Bush administration (the "Baker Plan"). It took almost a decade before either Israel or the US was willing to recognize some form of Palestinian national rights, and the proposals I just mentioned were far beyond what either had contemplated before. The issue isn't "optimism," but willingness to do something about it. There are great opportunities here. A large majority of the public favors the "Saudi plan," which calls for Israeli withdrawal to the international borders, blocking aid to either party that is unwilling to negotiate (which would entail cancelling aid to Israel), and equalizing aid to the two parties if both agree to negotiate (which would be a radical change in US policies). In the latest in-depth studies, 75% of the population believe that the US should be neutral between the two, 17% favor a tilt towards Israel -- again, radically different from US policies. That surely suggests that serious organizing and activism in the US could bring majority opinion into the political arena and the public domain. That hasn't happened, but we have only ourselves to blame for it. If public pressures compelled Washington to shift in these directions, the -Israeli roadblock to political settlement could be removed: Israel cannot act independently, if the US takes a firm stand, and opinions in Israel would also shift, given the relations of extreme dependency. That could make an enormous difference. As always, optimism-pessimism don't matter much. Action does.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 29, 2004 05:11 AM
I've read alot on this topic. Here is some good stuff on details and the tendency to let emotional attitudes over ride facts, and the reality "on the ground". [url=http://emperors-clothes.com/gilwhite/pitch1.htm#map]Debate between Prof. Gil-White and other academics[/url] [url=http://emperors-clothes.com/israelguide.htm]A history of the problem[/url]

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 28, 2004 02:20 AM
Ever since then, this has been the problem. The jews have the upper hand, but they have played the hand they have been dealt. We can criticize their harsh treatment of the arabs, but it is Karmic, in my view. Atrocities are coming from both sides. Both sides have made serious miscalculations, and both sides have suffered as a result. The arabs in the middle east have a world view almost identical to the Nazi world view. This is a major problem for the Israelis. On the one side we have xenophobic violent anger, and on the other side we have the same thing. In my opinion the only way out of this is going to have to come from the Israelis. The muslims are blinded by years of propaganda, which continues to this day. They are absolutely convinced of Neo Nazi ideology, they see the world through those eyes. The only way to change their hatred and anger, is to share the wealth, share the power, share everything. Love can conquer hate, anything else will fail.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 28, 2004 02:09 AM
When Israel became a state, the jews had a very different attitude towards their situation then they do now. Palestinians and the rest of the arab world rejected co statehood, co rule, and co operation. They simply declared an all inclusive jihad against Israel, and were deaf to any other thought. They were continuing the fight that the Nazi propaganda machine had convinced them was of prime and absolute necessity. The retreat of the British and Americans, after a halfhearted attempt to block Israeli statehood right after Hitler was out of the way, was seen as a confirmation that the Jews ruled the world, and now they were going to make their world capitol on muslim holy land. And then take over the rest of the muslim states. Arabs had been propagandized with the very worst kind of jew demonization propaganda for 30 years. And they fervently believed it, and made it their worldview, just like anti communist rhetoric in the America changed the American world view.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 28, 2004 01:58 AM
The zionist violence by the jews in palestine was defensive. The propaganda campaign of the British controlled Al Husseini was then combined with the Nazi propaganda, which included the Protocols of Zion. This new propaganda campaign against the jews convinced the arabs that the jews were working to take over the entire world, which meant also all of the arab world. So now they were all convinced that the jews were THE EVIL that had to be wiped out. Violence against jews increased, muslims joined the nazi cause for their own interests. The arab world digested nazi propaganda as gospel truth. This would lead to the reaction of the arab world when Israel was given statehood. cont.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 28, 2004 01:49 AM
He organized violence and propaganda against the jews. Already the muslim attitude was one of contempt for the zionists. The jews were wealthier, which was a great loss of face for the arabs, causing them to hate them. The islamic attitude towards non muslims was that they were inferior, and were thought of and treated as such. To have the inferior people flaunt their wealth in the muslim "holy land", buying up land, employing the umma as menial laborers, affecting a superior european attitude of condescension, etc, this proved to be the cause of seething resentment to the mass of poor muslims living in and around Palestine. Which made it easy to organize violence against the jews. The British were behind it all. When British policy changed because of Hitler, they couldn't afford to anger the jews, who had a lot of clout within the U.S. So they changed their policy in Palestine, Al Husseini then joined up with the Axis powers and Nazis and continued his campaign with new partners. cont.

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By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 28, 2004 01:34 AM
I would have to disagree with your statement that zionism is the cause of arab hatred of Jews. In historical analysis we will find that it was not zionist tactics, but jewish "intrusion" into islamic "holy land" which was the basis for an efficient propaganda campaign to instill fear and hatred of jews in order to incite violence. The propaganda campaign was organized by the British when they decided that the good graces of the oil producing clients were more to their advantage then the Balfour agreement they had signed earlier. They placed their agent Al Husseini as the leader of the muslims in Palestine. His role was to terrorize the jews to get them to give up on the Balfour plan. cont.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 27, 2004 10:11 AM
My point about the native americans is that if you empower people who are dedicated to your destruction, then they will cease and desist. I'm not one of those people who only sees Israel as the bad guy. The problem is on both side, and the solution will have to come from both sides renouncing their religious and ethnic chauvinism. The native americans were not like the arabs in their treatment of the white man. The native americans became hostile ONLY as they became aware of their being conquered and killed off. The arabs have over a thousand year history of insitutionalized mistreatment of jews, it is part of Islam to treat jews like serfs[see dhimmitude]. The Palestinians are brainwashed with neo nazi dehumanizing islamic teachings, as are most arabs. There needs to be change coming from both sides.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 26, 2004 21:18 PM
The Palestinians are not intransigent. If given an equal footing with Jews, if Israel changed it's ideology of insisting on the "Jewish character" of Israel, if Israel became Godly in action, instead of Godly only in theory, then the problems could be easily overcome. The problem is the intransigence of the Israelis. When this problem is recognized for what it is, then the solution becomes obvious. Only when the stubborn, inherently ungodly, faux religious attitude, of the Israeli leadership changes, can the problems come to an end. If Israel became one state, one people, with no Jewish chauvinism, then it can work. Otherwise it is doomed, and nothing will succeed. There needs to be a change of heart among the Palestinians. Without treating them like brothers, they will never change.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 26, 2004 21:07 PM
The common Israeli complaint is that they cannot trust the Palestinians. They insist that the Palestinians are intent on the destruction of Israel. But this is like saying that in the 16th-19th centuries, the native american tribes were intent on the destruction of America. How about today ? Are the tribes who reap the benefit of the American victory [i.e Gambling beneficiaries]on the warpath still ? Once the American policy changed from disenfranchising the tribes at all costs, into adopting a policy of helping them, then the tribes who reaped that windfall, were satisfied with the status quo. The Palestianin situation is approached by Israelis as one that cannot be fixed because the Palestinians are intransigent. Therefore the solution is to wear them down, force them to leave, or to force them onto reservations/their own "state". cont.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 26, 2004 20:53 PM
I believe the problem is the deluded quality of leadership. The Israeli right, and left, are both unable to deal realistically and effectively with the Palestinians. This has to do with the self defining, of what the state of Israel should be all about. All the problems could be solved relatively easily if the outlook of the Israeli leadership changed. It's like the man who puts his hand inside a jar to grab the contents, then can't get his hand out unless he lets go of the object. His fist is to large to be let out of the jar unless he lets go of his desired object. The desired object in this case is an ethnically dominant jewish nation. The cost of this stubborn insistence on a jewish dominated nation, is the situation that has been lived through, this noxious reality will continue to fester until the staus quo is revolutionized. cont.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Jimap2, Wegg at Oct 26, 2004 15:27 PM
The United States could do a lot to weaken the Israel government/state but one of the problems is Israeli nuclear capability. The US and Britain regularly supply arms to help suppress and attack the Occupied Territories. This could quite easily be withdrawn. However, Israel is a nuclear state and if the government felt they could not defend themselves territorially it is a possibility they could consider the use of nuclear weapons against their neighbours in the Middle East to portray a position of power. This is not inevitable but a loss of support for Israel domestically could have an impact regionally. This is one of the problems of the decades long failure to promote a realistic and just peace. Israel is the regional power even if it's allies withdrew support - the question is how is it possible to ensure a fair and balanced peace process, especially when one side would approach such a process with a significant power advantage.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 19, 2004 05:14 AM
American support for Israel is fear driven and economically driven, not oil driven. The supporters of Israel come in a variety of shapes and sizes, and they are the reason for supporting Israel. It's personal and financial, not strategic. The religious reasons, the ethnic reasons and the business reasons are the real reasons for America's support of Israel. There is the Jewish diaspora to contend with who have strong ethnic and religious motivations. There is the right wing Christians and British Israelite crowds who have strong religious motivations to support Israel. Then there are the large amount of business ties, from arms to organized crime. Pressure is coming from many groups whom american politicos fear to anger. Capisce?

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 19, 2004 04:56 AM
What strategic american interests does Israel serve in the region? None that I can see. America put Saddam into Power, the Shah of Iran, and others as well. Israel hurts american strategy in the region, if you are friends with Israel, you are enemies of everyone else. George the First knew this, and was almost a victim of the mossad [according to victor ostrovsky] because he was going to try to force Israel to deal "fairly" with the PLO by withholding "aid". According to the book "The secret war against the Jews", american policy has certainly not been consistent in regards to Israel. Support for Israel is driven by everything but geo political strategy. cont.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 19, 2004 04:39 AM
I have no doubt that oil is a major influence on american actions in the region. But there is more to it then just oil. My opinion is that there is no single american policy or strategy, nor is their a single Israeli strategy. Different interests with various motives are in play. My disagreement with you has been over your assertion that america would drop support of Israel like a hot potato, if the oil dried up. The fact is america doesn't need Israel to accomplish control over oil, and in fact support of Israel hurts them in that quest. The soviet threat I do not accept as real, IMHO the soviets were a bogeyman for public consumption. The real reason for american support is not strategic, it hurts american oil interests in the region. cont.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 19, 2004 01:40 AM
I see your point, but there is more then oil and geo-political strategy in play. If that was the case then Israel would not have been allowed to exist in the first place. It has no oil, and it's existence is an affront to the people who have the oil. If anglo american policy towards Israel was purely pragmatic, then Israel would not have been created. The anglo american elites as well as other european elites are a unique bunch. They often times have quasi mystic and quasi religious motivations. The Nazis were one expression of this kind of mystical-divine-destiny thought process. When dilettant's combine psuedo science [Darwinism, Malthus] and psuedo history [Freemasonry, Kabbalah, Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, British Israelism] rational pragmatism takes the back seat, leaving the driving to romantic ideology. Which can be exceedingly violent towards perceived agents and embodiments arrayed against them [often metaphysically].

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 17, 2004 23:06 PM
Today there are many non jews who support zionism. [url=http://www.uahc.org/rjmag/03summer/focus.shtml]Christian Zionists[/url] hoping for the second coming, [url=http://www.revneal.org/Writings/british.htm]British Israelites[/url] who are many among the elites, and then there is the Israeli arms industry which often times acts as front man for the U.S to politically incorrect buyers, as well as Israel being the #1 buyer of American weapons. Israel is supported by the American military industrial complex because of interconnected ownership, and also because Israel is a constant great customer. U.S government gives Israel money, they then buy arms from american companies, it is quid pro quo. American policy does not think in terms of strategy about right wing Israel. It is all motivated by personal beliefs, corporate investment, and shared ownership/investment i.e Right wing Israel and the U.S are two sides of the same coin, shared investors, the left wing in Israel is what U.S policy is wary of.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 17, 2004 22:54 PM
I had said: "We can't blame American politicians, they don't call the shots, they are forced to pander to a large crowd of various Israeli supporters." It is not just the jewish lobby that supports Israel, as you suggested here: "I would add, however, that American politicians do have a choice, and have consistently chosen to support Israel, due to strategic interests much more than the inluence of the Jewish lobby." Zionism was forced on the jews. [url=http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:2fQ4jxmx5K0J:mama.indstate.edu/users/mouldmey/The%2520Non-Jewish%2520Origin%2520of%2520Zionism.PDF+The+Non-Jewish+Origin+of+Zionism&hl=en]Zionism was created by non jews[/url], with the jews as their unwitting dupes. When zionism was first taken up by non religious jews after centuries of prodding by non jews, the religious jews violently opposed it. cont.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 15, 2004 02:50 AM
The twin delusions of religious and moral superiority, have combined to produce todays Israeli power structure. The pathetic sad truth is, they are far from superior, in any way. The international jewish support for Israel is the lynchpin that keeps the maniacs in power. We can't blame American politicians, they don't call the shots, they are forced to pander to a large crowd of various Israeli supporters. It is the Jewish community around the world, which is enabling the disturbing and dangerous road Israel is being led down, by psychotics. The Jewish people need to awake to the insanity that is controlling Israel. A state, based on, and run on the principle of the explicit ethnic superiority of it's ruling elites, as the overarching consideration in all and every aspect of it's society, is hardly romantic. Were the Nazi's ?

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 15, 2004 02:24 AM
Some may disagree and say the Holocaust was the worst thing to ever happen to the Jewish people. The difference is that after WW2, for the first time, the Christian world felt guilty, and changed their centuries old outlook and attitude towards the Jews. Well that is shot to hell. Just like after 9-11, the world felt for the U.S, solidarity with America was at an all time high. Now, it's at it's worst. Israel went from being a romantic utopian dream after the madness of WW2, to a racist chauvanistic xenophobic madhouse in most peoples minds. The only people who still blindly support Israel are: zombiefied Xtian zionists, romantically deluded left wing jewish diasporis, right wing fascists with their own agenda for Israel, and psychologically impaired religious fanatics. cont.

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Re: Optimism since The Fateful Triangle?

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Oct 15, 2004 02:12 AM
I can't see any solution in the near future. As Noam's friend Israel Shahak points out [url=http://www.radioislam.net/islam/english/books/jewhis/jewhis1.htm]IN HIS BOOK[/url], things are going from bad to worse. I can't see U.S policy confronting Israel. The idea of a state for palestinians has been openly called a ruse, a con, fake, and taken off the table completely by Sharon. Yet we don't hear a peep from the U.S side about this. The reality is that neither the dems nor reps will stand up to Israel. The only hope is that the Jewish leadership around the world can become self critical. They need to be shaken out of their romantic delusions about Israel. Israel is the worst thing to happen to Jews in history. Madness and depravity are the twin pillars of Israeli leadership. I'm 50% Jewish, and I was able to overcome the delusions of Judeo-centric chauvinism, which I had been propagandized with. The Israeli financial and political oligarchy can't be as stupid as they appear to be. So it must be psychological. cont.

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