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Noam Chomsky's Blog

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Some election comments...

By Noam Chomsky at Nov 09, 2004

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We have a fairly clear idea of what [Bush's] planners want, but what we can expect depends on circumstances, including those we create. That's what should concern us, not speculating about what we cannot know. The outcome was a disappointment, but there have been disappointments before. Take 1984, when essentially the same gang of thugs -- a little less tilted to the extreme reactionary statist side -- won by a 2-1 margin, with about the same percentage of the electoral vote as today. And they were engaged in horrendous atrocities abroad and very harsh and destructive programs for most of the population at home. The world didn't come to an end. In fact, activism proved quite effective. I don't think that the Kerry campaign even tried to include the opinions of most of the population, including those who voted for Kerry. People will vote their class interests when they see some credible political force that might represent those interests. That's not Kerry or the DLC. There are urban-rural differences, but even greater differences internal to each. We can reach out to people, urban or rural, by taking them and their concerns seriously, trying to understand them, and working to find ways to realize legitimate concerns, without compromising our own principles. The same way we work in, say, liberal academic communities, where there is also vast diversity. As to fraud, etc. I don't think it is a major issue, even if true. The election had about the significance of tossing a coin to pick a king. If the coin was slightly biased, that's unfair, but not the main issue. The much more important point is that the opinions of the majority of the population were excluded from the political arena on major issues. People voted for the imagery concocted by the PR industry. Exit polls reveal that clearly. But to discover whether the imagery is accurate, we have to compare people's attitudes and beliefs with the actual programs. There's plenty of interesting and credible evidence on this, and when we investigate it, we discover that people were hopelessly misled. Voters for both candidates assumed, overwhelmingly, that the candidates held their views, which is demonstrably false. In fact, voters recognized that they could not vote on agenda/policies/programs/ideas -- about 10% gave that as their reasons -- but only on imagery. And in a society based crucially on deceit (what is advertising?), it is quite natural that the political managers and the PR industry will run elections the same way. To repeat, there is overwhelming evidence that the opinions of the majority of the population on major issues were simply off the agenda, either within the political parties or in mainstream discussion, with rare exceptions. That democratic deficit seems to me far more important than the possibility that the coin that was tossed was biased. Bush won slightly more than 30% of the electorate, Kerry slightly under 30%. I doubt that fraud had much to do with it. That's about what I personally predicted, if that matters; am collecting some symbolic bets from friends, and even wrote about it a bit, on Znet. It is meaningless. It tells us virtually nothing about the country, just as it would tell us nothing if there had been a slight shift in votes and Kerry had won with a meaningless slight plurality. The important issues are: the opinions of the majority of the population on major issues were off the agenda, people voted for one or another image conducted by the PR salesman, and the images have little to do with reality. 6) Election Responce pt. 6: 1968, 1972 & 2004 The Vietnam war movements were extremely important, but they didn't displace presidents. Nixon was elected in 68 and 72, the years when the movement finally reached substantial scale. They did affect the war, very significantly, but in other ways. Finger pointing is a waste of time. Understanding what is happening, organizing and acting, are anything but a waste of time. The tasks now are exactly as they were before, and as they would be if a slight shift in votes had shown that the other party's imagery was more effective in the marketing campaign -- which was run at about the level of selling toothpaste, as one would expect in a society where "marketing" is understood to be a massive exercise in deceit, for quite substantial and understandable reasons. We shouldn't have paid much attention to the elections in the first place. They can't be ignored. They take place. But there are much more important things to do, before and now. 7) Electoral Responce pt. 7: How do they do it? Why doesn't the Left? The religious right has been organizing for years from the local level and on up -- school boards, state representatives, pressure groups, etc. And has done so on a scale that gives some substance to Robertson's threats to form a third party unless the Republican leadership makes statements of which he approves (and which they will then probably ignore). The progressive left is very substantial in scale, and could be far larger, including the large majority of the population, judging by highly credible public opinion studies that the press scarcely mentions, presumably because they understand that it is much too dangerous to allow people to understand that they are not alone in their views. And it has done important work. But it has not undertaken to create a viable political alternative. Maybe that's a high priority, maybe not. But those who think it is (I agree) have to work at it every day, not just every four years, at all levels, from local on up, fielding candidates for everything from school boards to Congress and some day beyond, but also in education, organizing, working and acting on issues, etc. It is no use to show up every four years and say "vote for me" in a highly personalized extravaganza, which is what elections have become, given the severe democratic deficit in the country.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Jedediahthornwood, Imaginarian at Nov 30, 2004 00:47 AM
This doesn't really belong here but I don't know where else to post it so I hope you'll let it stay. Steinhorn's oozing serenade to the MTV (Viacom) cliché's of unwarranted narcissism is typical of that oil slick on the internet called Salon.com. Read the user profile that Salon.com baits advertisers with on their web site. I didn't know that "baby boomers" raised their children to be deracinated, drug using, sexually experimental nihilists with body piercings and venereal diseases. The obsession with miscegenation is lurid and only exists in Steinhorns tabloid redolent mind. Steinhorn only speaks for that pocked remnant of the "60's" that is found in the grimy back pages of the Village Voice's "personals" pages and scattered homosexual literary quarterlies, read by ivy league cultists and no one else. The article on Portuguese Stalinist party hack Saramago is another cue to the chardonnay sipping prep school Marxist who thinks he, she, it is entitled to rule the world under the benevolent tutelage of Jewish gurus like Harold Bloom (Yale) or Noam Chomsky (MIT). J.R.R. Tolkien was the most read author in the sixties and seventies. But maybe that make me a Luddite.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Ulmanen, Botpolar at Nov 29, 2004 19:43 PM
I don't have time to go over the influence of hygiene and medicine on life expectancies. The debate about the benefits of US technologies is not possible to resolve since there are measurement problems, yet I would argue that my initial point remains. You can separate types of influence into categories, because they are separate from each other. Foreign policy matters very little in the context of fighting diseases and the benefits of technology. You can morally object to the war in Iraq, without having to take into consideration all the people the US has saved. And this becomes even more pertinent when considering that the bureaucrats in charge of waging the war have necessarily done very little in their lives for the benefit of humanity. (Granted Bush has done better than most leaders with addressing the issue of Aids in Africa.)

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Re: Some election comments...

By Ulmanen, Botpolar at Nov 29, 2004 19:41 PM
'First the staying-alive stuff is dominant and profoundly under-appreciated.' This depends on the newspapers you read and political circles you hang out in. Maybe on Zmag it's underappreciated, but I'm sure there are lots of people out there who do appreciate the fact that the US won the cold war.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Tchrist7, Tedc at Nov 29, 2004 02:21 AM
I added some more comments on Iraq and Africa and the need for sober long term decisions but these were lost by the poor "submit" software.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Tchrist7, Tedc at Nov 29, 2004 01:52 AM
These are follow-up items from the context above. First the staying-alive stuff is dominant and profoundly under-appreciated. I live down the hill from a reservoir with its chlorine-treatment facility. I remember being on tour as someone made a snide comment about the vicous dangerous technology. I'm happy with the arrangement as I don't like diarhea or dying of cholera. As an exercise one might consider what one would look/feel like if one had polio (the long term form) and then consider why the disease is almost gone from the planet. 1/3 of protein now consumed by humans comes from synthesized nitrogen-based fertilizer. What country leads the world in its efficient production (you might check out "Dining on Amonia" from Sci American)? A recent NYT article ("At the old swimming hole..." but you may have to pay to get the whole thing) considered this horrible common worm-based disease in Africa. The miracle is someone driving up in a truck and and handing out pills. What has happened to malaria around the globe and what could happen if the obstactles (perhaps largely from liberal quarters) were removed to ubitiquous small indoor usage in infected areas?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Ulmanen, Botpolar at Nov 26, 2004 03:00 AM
My take on the election: a slight embarrassment to the left, but I could be wrong since I don't live in the US. The irony was that, from what I understand, the left claimed that all the ambivalent voters and non-voters would go left if (1)turnout would go up and (2)given clear differences between candidates. There were clear differences, turnout was high – and the voters went right. Nevertheless, I do find Chomsky's Blog insightful since it encourages people to take a more active in everyday politics, something that is more common in European political culture. It reminds us that political change is an ongoing process, that does not begin or end with elections. It seems there is a lot to do to there. A lot of the left was banking on the people who have not turned up in previous elections, and this assumption was false – tradition and religion are very important and this applies throughout the world. In some developing countries economic and social policies might be more crucial, but in the US where a huge portion of the population is guaranteed a certain standard of living other things will become more influential in determining voters' opinions.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Ulmanen, Botpolar at Nov 26, 2004 02:55 AM
Now since we've looked at all that, I can still morally object to a lot of policies the US has pursued in the Middle East and elsewhere – needless to say it has been very short sighted. When it comes to the use of force, all of the above matters very little. So you can look at the positive influence of western countries, but that does not give them a carte blanche to even out the good with some bad.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Ulmanen, Botpolar at Nov 26, 2004 02:53 AM
'I assume US was the big leader in these efforts but do not have statistics.' The US has done good things, but I wouldn't call them a big leader considering their own infant mortality rates. You're lucky the HDI does not include infant mortality in the composite index, you would lose ranking by quite a bit. 'Anyone seriously looking at US influence around the globe would have to start with the enormous staying-alive contribution.' Now let's look at the 'critical dynamics' of this statement. True the US is a major industrial power, and it also has a huge internal market which has supported 'export-led growth' in other economies. But you hugely exaggerate the 'staying alive contribution' by attributing the benefits of capitalism solely to the US. The history of capitalism does not equal the history of the US. Don't forget that people in newly industrialised countries have had to worked hard, and that the industrial revolution began in England. The US was a pioneer of manufacturing techniques and mass production, but its not the US that creates growth in other countries - it's those countries themselves.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Ulmanen, Botpolar at Nov 26, 2004 02:51 AM
'The life-saving technologies amongst other things have reduced infant mortality by a factor of 3 around the globe' TedC: Please note that the life saving technologies you speak of are things like better hygiene and cotton underwear, etc. - it's more a spread of knowledge than technologies per se. 'Most people alive today wouldn't be - quite likely would have died in infancy - without Western developments and their distribution.' This is a very strong counterfactual and I doubt even the economists you read, would hold to it strictly. Don't forget that demographic change through cultural factors is also influential. You should not brush off India so quickly. There is an underlying, very long debate, about the inluences of colonialism vs. economic backwardness of India. Late 19th century/early 20th India was a huge exporter of raw materials, and it was also a market that supported the growth of western countries. No manufacturing technologies developed because there was a shortage of capital mainly because the Brits decided to export everything to the British Indian government.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Tchrist7, Tedc at Nov 24, 2004 08:54 AM
I agree the issues are it, and sidesteps into the personal (Bush-bashing et al) are probably worse than a waste. What made this a particulary miserable result was 3 debates-worth of clear distinction between a candidate who cared enough to do his homework and one who is in faith-based cruise-control (with a backdrop of horrific failure), apparently made little difference. As the www.pipa.org study made clear, many who voted for Bush didn't even know that he and his policies were contrary to their desires (and no Bush ads didn't lie to get this perception). People have a remarkable ability to ignore reality (usually until it inflicts pain on them). As for activism I would suggest going after individuals in office or the media. Straightforward (polite) check-this-out-letters to representatives or journalist can score points where they matter most. The idea of generating big movements doesn't seem to go anywhere.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Nov 23, 2004 19:01 PM
I might say that the left is not exactly back where it started. There's now a very large mainstream bloc that is quite disappointed by the results. 49% of those who voted, which is about 30% of eligible voters. Check www.sorryeverybody.com for a laugh and a good example. I think we're in a good position to leverage that energy, which seems a whole lot better than the days when people didn't care much. Whether the answer is the Democratic party or some other party seems like a shell to me -- what's important are the underlying issues. So we can now focus on amplifying national conversations over the things mentioned (voting reform, environment, economic fairness, moral issues of power, etc.) If those conversations are widespread then one political party or another will have to pick up on them, in order to attact votes. I've always thought that what it comes down to is generating enough demand over the issues that people ought to care about. Don't you think?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Tchrist7, Tedc at Nov 23, 2004 02:57 AM
(continued) Recent polls show that about 75% of the American public believes that global warming is a serious threat (this is the kind of poll result Chomsky apparently refers to). What fraction of these 75% do ANYTHING personally as far as global warming abatement? (for reference I use 1/4 of the per capita energy and it isn't a big deal) How many even follow the issue enough to know that this is another reason not to have voted to Bush?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Tchrist7, Tedc at Nov 23, 2004 02:48 AM
"back to topic" . For those who want a rational clue about the election dynamics - what people thought was really going on - they can get it at www.pipa.org (study named - "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry supporters"). Chomsky's comments aren't remotely supported. Take "The important issues are: the opinions of the majority of the population on major issues were off the agenda, people voted for one or another image conducted by the PR salesman, and the images have little to do with reality." There was a nice piece in NYT this past year on the relative public interest in Europe on the elections and the European Soccer Championship. Needless to say soccer won huge with no assist from advertizing. People are lousy about long term planning, certainly with little interest (beyond perhaps a polite nice thing to say to pollsters) beyond their personal agenda.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Djfreak, Evan at Nov 22, 2004 12:44 PM
Part III So for all of the “lesser of two evils” Kerry voters I ask you once again who are we supporting now whether it's networks of local candidates or the home run Presidential contenders? Who now? They're going to play the same good cop bad cop song in 4 short years. They're going to put another more conservative Democrat up there to represent the “left” next to Jeb Bush who everyone on the left will freak out over. Or maybe even Arnold. Laugh all you want but we're crying out here in California where he already won an election in a state of over 30 million people. So what now? I'm ready to volunteer. I'm ready to flyer. Who are we getting behind? -DJ Freak

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Re: Some election comments...

By Djfreak, Evan at Nov 22, 2004 12:44 PM
Part II We cannot, cannot vote for one more corporate Democrat ever no matter what Nazi they put next to him. We are wasting valuable time and the world cannot afford for us to screw around anymore. We're sitting here having raging debates over Nader's 2% I mean come on! You want fighting? Wait until the Republicans win California because we are nurturing the growth of a truly progressive candidate out here (or elsewhere). Then you're really going to see Democrats and their supporters flipping out. We must be ready for that. We must cut deeply and cleanly into this lie and not sit around picking away at it any longer. more-

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Re: Some election comments...

By Djfreak, Evan at Nov 22, 2004 12:43 PM
OK I'm going to hijack the thread back on topic now. The election: So after spending the last few months at each other's throats, the “Left” is exactly where we started. Bush is in office and we're still in very serious trouble. And yes we would have still been in very serious trouble even if Kerry had won so let's stop kidding ourselves on that one. While I realize the situation is complex, I strongly disagreed with Chomsky and others signing the vote2stopbush.com petition and I stated so along with many others on this blog and elsewhere. And this most predictable, maddening Déjà vu quagmire that we now find ourselves returning to is exactly why. Carl Rove and the rest of the P.R./Advertising industry tunes these elections like a violin. That's what these industries who produce Carl Roves do. They Manufacture Consent. Now what they do is they manufacture photo finishes. And they do it brilliantly. They will continue to do it brilliantly and we cannot close our eyes to their power any longer. We must usurp it aggressively and subversively.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Tchrist7, Tedc at Nov 22, 2004 10:12 AM
(continued) Anyone seriously looking at US influence around the globe would have to start with the enormous staying-alive contribution. Roughly 1/3 of the protein consumed by humans comes from synthetic fertilizer with US companies leading the way. Most people alive today wouldn't be - quite likely would have died in infancy - without Western developments and their distribution. I assume US was the big leader in these efforts but do not have statistics. A good reminder is a disease like polio. Consider its previous impact and now (after US development and production). Diseases like malaria have been greatly rolled back. In closing I am reminded of the 120 endorsers of Ralph Nader's candidacy in 2000 (including Chomsky). Ralph's was essentially a one dimensional - it-is-all-the-corporation's-fault - angry candidacy. All sorts of celibrities and social scientists but not a single scientist.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Tchrist7, Tedc at Nov 22, 2004 09:51 AM
(Continued) Iraq is not discussed meaningfully by Chomsky. A good starting point would be the last survey I saw from about 10 years ago in which Iraqi's were still averaging 7 kids per couple and had wittled down food sustainability to 30% (this itself bolstered by largely US-beget high tech agricultural which is wide-spread in the Middle East), having a very poor science culture (perhaps akin to Pakistan in which a physicist acknowledged having colleagues working on "a genie-powered electrical system" and "the speed of heaven"), enormous all-too-traditional problems of violence between different groups, and the only significant income is from a limited resource which no one ideally should be using (and they can't even extract). None of this is touched on by Chomsky and are the real challenges Iraqi's will have to face. Their neighbors in Iran have started to, using encouragement and incentives (i.e., sticks) to lower fertility to the 2 kids per couple neighborhood.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Tchrist7, Tedc at Nov 22, 2004 09:39 AM
(Continued). The life-saving technologies amongst other things have reduced infant mortality by a factor of 3 around the globe (and we at the helm of the development and distribution of these technologies are "terrorist"). India has since almost tripled its population with the unintended side-effects of having 2/3 of it kids underfed, perhaps 3% of the orginal nature spread left vaguely intact, big water shortages looming, and another 1/2 billion on the way (the process of having kids way beyond the ability to raise them healthly - or keep mom healthy - is apparently Hindu-kosher). To put this in Iraq-perspective a recent survey suggested that the number of females missing in India almost equals the entire population of Iraq. Should we be in Iraq? No, we should exit as civilily and as soon as possible. The biggest civil up-shot of our efforts are indirect - US and international charity efforts will be diverted from other very dire situations.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Tchrist7, Tedc at Nov 22, 2004 09:24 AM
If people want an honest cut at where people were coming from in voting on Nov. 2 download and read the study at www.pipa.org . The Chomsky-drift appears to miss the obvious. Perhaps the best intro to the obvious was the brilliant "What has Rome done for us lately?" scene in Monty Python's The Life of Brian. Michael Palin quietly gets things rolling by pointing out to the pontificating John Cleese, "Reg, the aqeducts." These answers to John's Cleese's question run up through "Reg, the roads", to "Reg, the schools", to "Reg, medicine", finally to "Reg, pax". When you step beyond the normal polite bounds of discourse (which are rigidly in effect in the kind of social science work that Chomsky uses as a bed-rock for his work), you see that human nature times human numbers are profoundly reducing future human quality of life and forget nature. All else including the various camps of systems analysis is unintended comedy. A good look at the recent and future critical dynamics is India. Over 50 years have passed since India set off on its own. Guided by human freedom and wisdom and the life-saving technologies that have revolutionized human life.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Organum, Baby at Nov 22, 2004 05:57 AM
Operational forgiveness !!! By taking the old wiew that (somebody) used somebody else positions are entrenched and you americans should really know about the strengths of entrenched capitalism. In relations between two societies it is really easy to find that one gets more from the exchange than the other. And secondly that this is due to such and such actions taken by the percieved stronger party. Example of theory: US strength today stems solely from being the most withdrawn geografocal entity in controll of its domain. AKA The "Island" of north america. Sheltered through two devastating wars that crippled its civilisational center "europe" the federation rose to dominance. Bad things have happend but that guilt-trip leads nowhere. Let the greedy suckers have their loot. Hehe "Its easier for a camel to get through the eye of the needle ( Gate of jerusalem , forbidden for camels ) than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 22, 2004 03:31 AM
It is often said that the cream rises to the top. That is true if you are making butter. But when man is ruling other men then it is more like a septic tank were the scum rises to the top. Power is the greatest seductive force known to man. The bad have always ruled the good. That too is history.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Phuknjrk, Dwntmpo at Nov 22, 2004 03:23 AM
is it "full of shit" to think there there's bad guys in charge and running america *AND* bad guys in charge and running iran (iraq/syria/islam)? or is it my assessment of one side wants to kill you, and the other wants your money? Almost every arguement, debate, paper or whatever here is about the empirical nature of the west... proven over and over how we *used* somebody for their resources.. almost every arguement on the other side, for the war.. is because they kill, and oppress.. fanatically, for their religion.. Rather than a clash of civilizations.. it's seems more of a clash of sins.. sins can be worked to accomodate each other... *that* is when you need to be careful...

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 22, 2004 03:00 AM
If any of you care to be honest with yourselves you will admit that all of us choose to believe what we want to believe is true or good or worthwhile or valuable. Life is like a choose your own adventure Book. Unfortunately people are animals, and animals force their adventure on others. There is no such thing as freedom. It does not exist. There is no such thing as justice. It does not exist. I choose to believe what I "see". but my vision is effected by my previous indoctrination as an animal, surviving in a culture that values property and money above all. 6.5Billion people on earth and almost all live in poverty. We are not a just nation. We are the center of greed in the world. The other 6.2Billion people are in the process of taking down the US and with the help of the Christian lunatics they will surely succeed.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 22, 2004 02:41 AM
You are so clearly full of shit, that I'm not even certain where to begin. So I won't. If anyone else is interested in this nonsense, please, be my guest. with all due respect.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Phuknjrk, Dwntmpo at Nov 22, 2004 01:57 AM
>Also, it is not unreasonable to predict the motivation and behavior of a group of people based upon their past behavior, stated interests, implicit and explicit goals, and published agenda. Thank you. it is not unreasonable to predict iraq's (or iran's or syria's) motivation and behavior, based upon their past behavior, stated interests, implicit and explicit goals, and published agenda. That is what we as a nation did. That is what we will continue to do. the world conquest 'powers that be' come from all sides, and they all need to be stopped.. But for some odd reason, we let one bad guy, point at another bad guy and say it's *his* fault.. if one guy wants to kill you.. and one guy wants to rob you.. which do you deal with first?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Bpmirsch, Drone007 at Nov 22, 2004 01:33 AM
interesting turn this thread has taken. :) to anyone who doubts chomsky's reasoning or validity, how bout this: if chomsky was trying to create a specific anti-america dissent by propagating lies, then at least he would be giving a fresh counter-view in contrast to the 4th branch of government (the media.) america is one, if not the most, nationalist country which tends to be hypocritical when talking about 'allegiances.' it's ok to criticize others and demand things, but not if the demands are of our own government. so let's say chomsky is just some communist who hates america and is making up things to bring it down... at least it's a change of pace. haha

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 21, 2004 22:44 PM
I recommend those books to anyone seeking to understand domestic (U.S.) and world events during the last 24 or so years.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 21, 2004 21:59 PM
There are a series of books based upon interviews with David Barsamian. The first is called "Chronicles of dissent" and concerns itself primarily with the 1980's. These are somewhat more “digestible” than a lot Chomsky's other books, which tend to require more rigorous attention than most people typically choose to dedicate to reading. Additionally, they will provide to you a broader context for specific issues (such as Israel) than a single article appearing on a website.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 21, 2004 21:58 PM
I'm not sure how much of Chomsky you've actually read. His statements are based upon highly detailed research involving multiple sources, domestic press, foreign press, official U.S. state documents among many others. As he often points out, very little (if any) of what he has to say is particularly controversial, if you take the time to pay attention. Also, it is not unreasonable to predict the motivation and behavior of a group of people based upon their past behavior, stated interests, implicit and explicit goals, and published agenda. (I suggest you researh the "Project for the New American Century." Like any reasonable person, Chomsky does this and in so doing, examines the situation from many sides (unlike what you have done with your lopsided Iran/Israel example) during his assessment. Contd-

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 21, 2004 21:51 PM
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. Albert Einstein Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad. Friedrich Nietzsche,

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 21, 2004 21:42 PM
The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. Thomas Jefferson A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely re-arranging their prejudices. William James Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions. Albert Einstein All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field. Albert Einstein

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Re: Some election comments...

By Phuknjrk, Dwntmpo at Nov 21, 2004 21:12 PM
the point there was that people like chomsky imply, ponder and project what they *think* as though it were fact.. in that article, he says "perhaps" we (the US) are moving fighter jets to israel to try and provoke iran or syria into jumping and attacking us.. Well "perhaps" iran has been threatning israel forever, and now that they're getting closer to nukes, the fear that they may actually use them destroy israel (like they've said they want to do), is that much more real.. but chomsky's set himself up in the position to blame the united states for any attacks originating from iran.. brilliant propaganda.. if iran nukes boston, it's because we gave some planes to israel.. iran says they want to destroy us and israel.. repeatedly.. they have parades for it... iran has been working towards nuclear capabilities, and has been 'shady' to say the least at every step of the way.. even this latest temporary freeze is a joke.. they agree to it.. say they'll stop in about a week... and then rush to get as much as they can done before the week is up.. (you're not commiting to a diet if you pig out the week before starting..)

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 21, 2004 10:04 AM
dwntmpo, Regrading your latter post, yes, I agree that terrorism is defined by the act, not the actor. Additionally, it seems that I define the act of terror differently than you. Regardless, I was pointing out that a review of U.S. foreign policy indicates that our leaders in fact, believe what I wrote (apparently too subtly)five posts ago that terrorism is defined by the actor. Regarding your former post (two ago), I can't respond to that because I can't understand what point you're trying to make. Help me out. adamrotmil, interesting point. i didn't know that. wish i was surprised.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Phuknjrk, Dwntmpo at Nov 21, 2004 09:11 AM
another good example.. your statement of "It is terrorism or unjust "naked" aggression when anyone else does it." Terrorism is not defined by who is doing the act, but by the nature of the act itself. the propaganda definition is "when they do it".. maybe we should outlaw martyrdom operations..

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Re: Some election comments...

By Phuknjrk, Dwntmpo at Nov 21, 2004 09:08 AM
>Actually, Chomsky implies that... So chomsky implies... let's see.. almost off topic.. Iran's Threat - Noam Chomsky http://blog.zmag.org/index.php/weblog/entry/irans_threat/ >The sharp increase in focus on Iran's alleged threat (nuclear weapons, connections to terror, etc.) is very clear. .. chomsky allegedly implies.. >Perhaps the purpose of all of these initiatives is to evoke some action by Iran or Syria that can be interpreted by Washington-media as justification for military action perhaps chomsky ponders.. >by now the US would probably have gone forward with plans to subordinate the region more fully to its interests, which would mean actions against the more independent states, Iran and Syria. chomsky probably jumps to conclusions.. >This is not entirely unrelated to the “war on terror”: it increases the terrorist threat, just as the invasion of Iraq did. so chomsky isn't entirely unrelated to propaganda..

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Re: Some election comments...

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Nov 21, 2004 08:17 AM
The Iraq war, for example, has been precisely hospital shooting (the hospitals were among the first targets). The given reason was that the hospitals were releasing injury statistics, which was adding to anti-coalition sentiment, so the hospitals had to be stopped. Of course, we never made a declaration of war, so it's a "conflict," not a war in the sense that fighting the Germans was, which seems to bring it even closer to what we think of as terror, at least to me.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 21, 2004 07:51 AM
Government today is all about manipulation of an indoctrinated population that is not capable of critical thought for the most part. Everyone in positions of power are stealing from the ignorant masses. That is the way it is. Iraq is a diversion from the Enrons and Worldcoms and corporate corruption and theft at a never before record pace.. All pensions are being stolen from us by these criminals. War and terrorism are the same thing. You two are master debaters, playing with yourselves.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 21, 2004 05:24 AM
only in *some* senses.. by the basic definitions, the words 'war' and 'terrorism' mean different things. it seems as though we're merging the two together to mean some generic 'aggression' definition.. Yes, it is war (a just war, at that) when we or another power collective does it. It is terrorism or unjust "naked" aggression when anyone else does it. It's really just so much propaganda to make people forget what is really going on. It's like calling these welfare for the rich tax cuts, "tax relief" or calling the attack on homosexuals "protection of marriage." Anyway, I could go on all night, but I'm not gonna. I do respect your point of view. I really do. I just don't necessarily agree with it.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 21, 2004 05:17 AM
"you're "implying" that President Reagan..ordered the military to shoot down a plane?" Actually, Chomsky implies that in his analysis of our support of Iraq during their war with Iran in the 80's. Are these the same conservative estimates... Yes, and I know, there are questions regarding the validity of the methods. However, how many people is it ok to kill? 30,000? 40,000? more? less? I'm sorry.. what? I suggesting that our government has gone far beyond "shooting a hospital" and that the people have accepted it. contd-

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Re: Some election comments...

By Phuknjrk, Dwntmpo at Nov 21, 2004 05:04 AM
>Interchanging "war" and "terror" functions, however. only in *some* senses.. by the basic definitions, the words 'war' and 'terrorism' mean different things. it seems as though we're merging the two together to mean some generic 'aggression' definition.. >In the early 1980's the Reagan military “accidentally” shot down an Iranian commercial airliner. "accidentally"? so you're "implying" that President Reagan, knowing an airplane was full of civilians, saw an opportunity to inflict a terrorist act and ordered the military to shoot down a plane? >We have broken international law, killed (by conservative estimates) over 100,000 civilians, destroyed a nation on the basis of complete fabrication. Are these the same conservative estimates from a couple weeks ago? where they went around and asked some of the iraqis how many people they know of were killed? and then extrapolated those numbers to the rest of the country? >Shoot a hospital? Compared to what our tax dollars have already purchased? Our government would have to learn some manners before they are willing to stop at shooting a hospital. I'm sorry.. what?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 21, 2004 05:04 AM
Therefore, it is my contention that the govt alongside and by-way-of it's echo chamber, the media, continually bombard the population with the message that to kill these "others" is not just "ok," rather, it is "necessary" and, in fact, quite a "noble" task. For the love of Jesus, they're just smelly savages after all. It worked 200 years ago, and it's working today.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 21, 2004 04:38 AM
That's a matter of history, easily demonstrated. In the early 1980's the Reagan military “accidentally” shot down an Iranian commercial airliner. Completely loaded. Madeleine Albright, when asked about the 500,000 dead children as a result the the Clinton-Gore sanctions, stated that containing Sadam was worth that cost. We have broken international law, killed (by conservative estimates) over 100,000 civilians, destroyed a nation on the basis of complete fabrication. Oh, yeah…and those kids (some as young as 12) that did survive the nineties are now (literally) being butt-fucked by our soldiers. This only goes back 20 years, and it barely scratches the surface. Shoot a hospital? Compared to what our tax dollars have already purchased? Our government would have to learn some manners before they are willing to stop at shooting a hospital.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 21, 2004 04:37 AM
We're talking about a linguistic game involving "chiasms." It works in some cases, but not others, specifically "the brown is box" is meaningless both linguistically and conceptually. Interchanging "war" and "terror" functions, however. The first job the govt has is to convince the domestic population that the "enemy" is "other" and "not human." Our government has been doing that since it came into existence. Consequently, it has been allowed to commit innumerable atrocities. -contd-

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Re: Some election comments...

By Phuknjrk, Dwntmpo at Nov 21, 2004 03:40 AM
Switching words around can give a different perspective yes, but the words still need to relate to each other the right way. Like instead of saying 'the box is brown'.. saying 'the brown is box'.. it doesn't make any sense unless you "play with the words", and twist the meanings... >"So, I would say yes, "war is legalized hospital shooting." Or at least that is what the U.S. domestic population is encouraged to believe by our coercive government." What?? our government wants us to believe that it's right, good and legal to blow up a hospital? amazing.. an absolute untruth derived by switching some words around, and loosely following definitions.. propaganda comes from all sides.. be careful..

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Re: Some election comments...

By Mttmalin, Adm_puphie_pants at Nov 21, 2004 01:57 AM
"no.. you can't just change a word to get an opposite meaning.." Switching words around can allow a more honest perspective. This is all about playing with words. The propaganda that we are supposed to believe is basically that sometimes it is "ok to kill." We are supposed to accept the authority of those who define the legitimate use of power over others. Kind of like the idea of a "just war" and who determines it as such. So, I would say yes, "war is legalized hospital shooting." Or at least that is what the U.S. domestic population is encouraged to believe by our coercive government.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Phuknjrk, Dwntmpo at Nov 21, 2004 00:42 AM
I think the problem is that the language is shifting.. older words are combining with new ones and the definitions are getting confused.. (old words..) Terror.. intense fear.. Terrorize.. to overpower with fear.. (new words..) Terrorism.. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. Terrorist.. One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism. Alfred Hitchcock terrorized many people, but he was not a terrorist.. War may terrorize, but it is not terrorism.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Phuknjrk, Dwntmpo at Nov 21, 2004 00:20 AM
no.. you can't just change a word to get an opposite meaning.. terrorism is a form of warfare. an illegal form. kinda like shooting hospitals.. or churches.. you wouldn't say war is legalized hospital shooting...

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Re: Some election comments...

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Nov 20, 2004 20:28 PM
>"Isn't war a form of terrorism?" >No.. terrorism is an illegal form of war.. But if terrorism is an illegal form of war, then isn't war is a legalized form of terrorism?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 20, 2004 18:14 PM
7natures of man aka the Seven deadly Sins. Murdering another human however you may rationalize, is our created nature. Men are animals first and last. We do whatwever we please because we can. Nothing can stop us from acting like animals absent just distribution of the worlds endowment of resources, to allow all of humanity to live with dignity and security. In all of history that has never happened, because of the 7natures of man. Greed is at the top. Always has been always will be.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Phuknjrk, Dwntmpo at Nov 19, 2004 22:09 PM
"Isn't war a form of terrorism?" No.. terrorism is an illegal form of war..

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By Bpmirsch, Drone007 at Nov 19, 2004 21:45 PM
i don't know the 7 natures, where does this philosophy come from?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 19, 2004 18:05 PM
This is a very intellectual discussioin of war and terrorism. If you don't know what it feels like to have a man point a loaded gun at you, step on you throat as he tries to pull your tongue out or violates your three year old daughter then you should not speak of trying to solve the problem. Might makes right. That is the history of the world. The seven natures of man make for the impossibility of a lasting peace. People are animals, however insanely civilized they may think they have become. Watch a family member killed and then you will understand why terrorism. The 7natures of man are the reason why the world is as it is. No government or law or religion or army or amount of money will stop man from acting as he was created or has evolved. We all have reason to fear one another. We are all in fact fully human.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Bpmirsch, Drone007 at Nov 18, 2004 23:06 PM
true, but come on now. trying to get rid of all terror in the world would require every human to surrender any greed , selfishness, pride, etc. that they have at once. imagine a whole world without guns or war and then imagine the one small group of people who don't follow, effectively controlling the rest of this complacent new world. i think a better more realistic way of defining war as terror is to ask "how can we level the playing field?" across the globe. i do see what you point is, however.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Nov 18, 2004 21:30 PM
Hmm. Talking to conservatives is a tough one. For that, I usually refer them to people like Ron Paul, the Republican Congressman of Texas, who said "antagonizing so many around the world actually serves to expose us to greater danger from more determined enemies." But I'm thinking more along the lines of how we present arguments to moderate Democrats, the undecided, and the non-participating. Which of these do you find more likely to have an effect: War is a form of terrorism. War seems to be a form of terrorism. Isn't war a form of terrorism? We need to reduce terrorism (what is war?) in order to reach peace. Those who feel that the key to world peace is to reduce all forms of terror (I agree) are asking: isn't war a form of terror?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Bpmirsch, Drone007 at Nov 17, 2004 22:25 PM
i forgot to add in that along with " this economic strategy [of Capitalism] with our long standing cultural racism and sexism and the belief that 'poor people could do well if they tried harder' "

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Re: Some election comments...

By Bpmirsch, Drone007 at Nov 17, 2004 22:22 PM
well honestly, i think that the only way is to let people convince themselves. I don't think it ever really happens any other way, unless people are handed down their beliefs from their parents; this is commonplace in our country (and probably human-nature.) maybe the problem that I find with the whole quest for shifting conservatives to the left is this: we live in a society that applaudes cold-heartedness on a larger scale than it does to charity. in these posts, i may sound very depressing and pessimistic, but this is the reality of where we have come as a country. capitalism is great for the people it works for, and is an extreme stranglehold on everyone else. couple this economic strategy with our long-standing cultural racism and sexism in most parts of the country, and this is where i find my trouble in seeing conservatives shift their positions. it pays for you to be disrespectful to women and other races. and I would have to make a stereotype and say that most of that comes from the conservative side, so why would we expect them to change when the whole economic and cultural system is on their side?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Nov 17, 2004 21:34 PM
Drone007 wrote, "I love the idea of becoming part of the majority by convincing moderates ... but we'd be hard-pressed to convince this conservative opposition to sway towards our beliefs." I haven't tried this for long enough to evaluate, but I have a theory. There's a very interesting book that you might want to read called _Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes_ by Jacques Ellul. It's a relatively even-handed analysis of how belief systems form in mass cultures. If you are interesting in language theory, you might want to research the use of politeness, comparing English to Japanese. It has interesting effects. Also note that people like David Brooks and William Safire are publishing the New York Times, a centrist paper, with the intent of shifting moderate Democrats to the right. One key, like in advertising, is to let readers convince themselves about new beliefs. That's a long, slow process.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 17, 2004 17:45 PM
"The partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions." "The direction in which education starts a man will determine his future life." Plato "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Isaac Asimov "This is what extremely grieves us, that a man who never fought Should contrive our fees to pilfer, on who for his native land Never to this day had oar, or lance, or blister in his hand." Aristophanes "Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies." Thomas Jefferson "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein "Ignorance, the root and the stem of every evil." Plato "The face is the mirror of the mind, and eyes without speaking confess the secrets of the heart." Saint Jerome "The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all." John F. Kennedy What if he is president?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Todd, Baumer at Nov 17, 2004 10:00 AM
Drone, Writing in response to your earlier post. You wrote "I just don't see this potential liberal majority as being much of a majority at all, much like this election was." It is hard to imagine. Wouldn't you agree, though, that many members of the so-called "conservative" majority are really better described as conformists and reactionaries? And can't reactionaries be easily manipulated? Can't conformists be won over by winning the public image struggle? And isn't it more likely that at least a few people will develop a deeper and more intelligent commitment to the public interest in such an ideologically supportive environment? Honestly, I know very little about this stuff, but from where I stand it seems to hold potential.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Bpmirsch, Drone007 at Nov 17, 2004 04:49 AM
I could possibly see a movement towards the legalization of marijuana. Perhaps a candidate who endorses that (Kuccinich or Bill Maher, haha) would stir up a big enough following, enough that they could possibly lessen the need to be supported by big bucks. the only way someone could run without money theoretically is if they are supported by such a large consituency that the candidate doesn't have to 'reach out' to swing voters in such a way that requires big bucks... this makes sense, right? that's the only way i can see this happening.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Bpmirsch, Drone007 at Nov 16, 2004 22:52 PM
adamrotmil -- i guess the underlying problem that i face is this: i consider myself very open-minded to things. but in all honesty, I don't ever see myself agreeing with the extreme capitalists and religious fanatics in this country. I love the idea of becoming part of the majority by convincing moderates that we feel is better for the country, and more importantly, the world. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT... we'd still be hard-pressed to convince this conservative opposition to sway towards our beliefs. that's not their responsibility, they should believe what they want to believe. I just don't see this potential liberal majority as being much of a majority at all, much like this election was. half of this country will still be filled with greedy racist religious people. was that a little harsh? ;) nah, guess it wasn't.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Nov 16, 2004 20:02 PM
Couple of thoughts. (a) The highly credible public opinion study is available at www.pipa.org along with others. It's called something like "public misperceptions leading up to the war." (b) Should liberals move to another country in despair? I'm sure it would make those who benefit from Bush very happy if the opposition moved to Europe with no intention of returning. Although if you've been thinking of traveling or studying abroad, I have to admit that it's tempting. (c) Can we win the public relations contest? Sure. With emphasis on speaking to moderates, in small steps, in ways that are not offensive. For my part, I'm going to focus on mild reforms that are easily within grasp. This helps create a setting where larger changes can occur, and other activists will be working on those.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 15, 2004 21:39 PM
Bush's cabinet is falling apart. WHY? We were wrong when we invaded Iraq. It was about OIL. The rest of the world knows it. The $ is plunging on foreign markets. China's currency is pegged to ours. These are the reasons why an Armageddon type financial disaster is at hand. The $400 Billion federal deficit $595Bllion trade deficit and 40% undervalued Chinese currancy are going to shut down the flow of funds to the US markets. Even US companies are abandoning the US for China. Next time you buy a manufactured product look and see.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Bpmirsch, Drone007 at Nov 15, 2004 06:07 AM
[...continued...] Is it so wrong to say that America is so divided in core beliefs that half of its population could leave and half of it could stay? This is a pretty ludacris discussion, I admit, but really... I get a very apocalyptic feeling when I think about where America is heading; And this is not because I am under-priveleged or anything. I just get upset when people talk about how they love living in America because they're free. There are lots of countries that have free citizens; what most Americans love about America is that they're free to be very successful economically, sometimes by the expense of others. There is a large majority of people in the US that are very influenced by racism, homophobia, greed, etc. I don't like that about America. So why should I not eventually move out? Why should I bear unconditional allegiance and be the captain that goes down with the ship? Isn't activism only good to a certain point? There may be a time in the future when America becomes targeted by non-terrorist aggression. Will the majority of the US citizens stand with America even if we may be in the wrong?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Bpmirsch, Drone007 at Nov 15, 2004 05:52 AM
This is my first post on this forum, so be gentle. :) Also, I'd like give Chomsky congratulations for FINALLY being on Bill Maher's Real Time. Only good can come of that kind of exposure. Anyway, here's my comment. There is an aspect to the current public mood in America that I find interesting and confusing at the same time (I guess the two often accompany each other.) Basically it can be asked in a hypothetical question: At what point in time did Albert Einstein leave Germany because he did not like what was going on there during the eve of WWII? More relevant to my point, though, is this question when it's applied to our country. Is it wrong to think that some people might just be better off leaving the US and living somewhere else due to their overwhelming angst towards this political monster we have living in Washington? [...continued...]

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 15, 2004 00:03 AM
Manipulation of the masses is what all governments are about and is their reason for being. All governments have always had one thing paramount in all action and that is the distribution of society's assets/ wealth. All justice starts from the just distribution of wealth. Justice = Power = Money. No money no power. No power no Justice. No Justice no money. Simple!!!!!!! The historical corrupt distribution of wealth for all of history IS the reason for ALL wars and revolution past - present - anf future. Greed Corrupts all. Period.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Todd, Baumer at Nov 14, 2004 21:50 PM
goodguy, ok, so let's assume Postman is right that the television-based culture has more or less destroyed substantive political discourse. How does one proceed? Even though it wouldn't create an informed citizenry, I think there is still an argument for beating them at their own (public relations imagery) game. Obviously grassroots action is also essential, but the fact of the matter is that some portions of the public are not very receptive to meaningful political discourse. I suspect we need to win these segments over the same way our opponents do: By manipulating the meanings of symbols, for instance the symbol called "Jobs," in ways that encourage people to think along the lines necessary for a more just society.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Kydajo2, Kydajo at Nov 14, 2004 21:43 PM
I've read that nothing you say can be taken on trust, so would you please cite those "highly credible public opinion studies" that you claim support your contention that a majority of the population stands with the progressive left. In my experience, grass roots activism as practiced by the radical left seldom yields your desired result. And it was grass roots activism, after all, that was decisive in the re-election of President Bush.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Goodguy, Goodguy at Nov 14, 2004 13:48 PM
I think that the problem isn't so much one of 'Republican vs. Democrat' as one of meaningful vs. meaningless political education. T.V. is an all but meaningless medium with which to create informed citizenry. Grassroots action is much more meaningful. Makes me appreciate alot more the work I do with teens and media awareness, sponsored by local co-ops and credit unions here in B.C., Canada! (http://www.ryes.org/)

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Re: Some election comments...

By Goodguy, Goodguy at Nov 14, 2004 13:44 PM
On the topic of how ineffective a T.V. culture is in helping people make informed political decisions: It is clear by now that the people who have had the most radical effect on American politics in our time are not political ideologues or student protesters with long hair and copies of Karl Marx under their arms. The radicals who have changed the nature of politics in America are entrepreneurs in dark suits and grey ties who manage the large television industry in America. They did not mean to turn political discourse into a form of entertainment. They did not mean to make it impossible for an overweight person to run for high political office. They did not mean to reduce political campaigning to a 30-second TV commercial. All they were trying to do is to make television into a vast and unsleeping money machine. That they destroyed substantive political discourse in the process does not concern them. Neil Postman in a lecture, 1998 http://itrs.scu.edu/tshanks/pages/Comm12/12Postman.htm

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 13, 2004 19:26 PM
Think!!!! What would it cost for instant elections with fail safe voting. 130,000,000 households with DSL/Cable access and $1,000 Dell. $130,000,000,000. Thats it - $130 Billion and we are now Free and now we all could vote in a True Democracy on going to Iraq and Tort Reform and National Health Care and Social Security Reform and Stock Market Corruption/ Corporate Fraud and Insurance Company Reform and Free Education for All and Guaranteed Retirement Funding and Corporate Welfare and Welfare Reform and IRS Reform etc etc etc etc. You want to talk about the will of the people. The thought sends shivers down my spine. Find a politician who would Propose such a thing and you will find the only honest politician in this god forsaken land, and that aint gonna happen. The citizens of the country are mindless spineless idiots who have been educated/ brainwashed/ indoctrinated into being the ignorant citizens a corrupt government needs to paternalisticly rob our society for the benefit of the monied elite, and quite frank the average American is as dumb as Bush.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 13, 2004 19:25 PM
The US is not a Democracy - never has been and never will be. Too much self interest of the monied elite in the status quo - He who has the Gold/god keeps the Gold/god. The web has made possibile the true establishment of the First "Real" Democracy in History. It will not happen here. What we have is Paternalism and Legalized Greed/Capitalism, and democracy does not even exist within that structure. Our daddy's/ Founding Fathers/ Elected Officials do not want us to decide what is best for us, therefore we get and accept Paternalism.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Marxsen, Marxsen at Nov 13, 2004 19:09 PM
Two matters of importance regarding presidential elections in general need to be respected: 1. The manner of election. The United States is desperately in need of electoral reform so that viable alternative candidates are present to represent minorities and those without capital. The race should be limited to a few months, totally publicly funded, each candidate allotted equal time for advertising on network airwaves at network expense as part of their public service for the privilege of using airwaves, at the requirement of the FCC. 2. The supreme court is appointed by the president. Womens' right to choose and affirmative action decisions, among others, are most certainly at risk under appointments made by the Bush administration.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Todd, Baumer at Nov 13, 2004 07:17 AM
Finally, if I understand him, adamrotmil is suggesting that we fight fire with fire: That we respond to the public relations-driven world of faux politics with our own PR campaign. That's an idea I toss back and forth in my mind, and I'd like to hear what other people think about this. Actually, here's what Larry Beinhart -- author of the screenplay for Wag The Dog -- thinks about it, hope someone finds it as interesting as I did: "Chomsky is probably correct, that in a democracy, consent is manufactured. But we have to stop considering that to be a complaint. Take it as a simple fact. If consent needs to be manufactured, let's manufacture it." See the rest of the article: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0513-05.htm

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Re: Some election comments...

By Todd, Baumer at Nov 13, 2004 07:16 AM
I want to echo adamrotmil's question: Why not use the Democratic Party as a base for organizing? If a handful of feverish zealots can reverse the Republican Party 180 degrees from its theoretical goal of promoting conservatism, why shouldn't a committed group of social activists be able to change the direction of the Democrats TOWARD the values it hypocritically espouses? Three points: First, when writers from Zmag and similar outlets critique the Democrats (or other groups, for that matter) the goal is not to alienate potential allies but to clue us in to reality. So the point isn't "Democrats are bad," but rather, if you want to work with the dems, here's a realistic look at what you're getting into. Second, aren't most Democrats ideologically sympathetic with our ideals, once we get past the rhetoric? I mean, there are plenty who would be turned off by some of the buzzwords in the activist community, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't agree with us if we were willing to communicate on their terms. It seems to me there's a huge amount of potential there. Anybody else have thoughts on this?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 13, 2004 03:07 AM
Iraq was a business decision made to protect the monied elite and their interests. Itaq has 20% of the world's endowment of OIL. Saudi Arabia has 40% - do the math. If you want to learn about the facts go to site. All Oil embargos to date were done to shift vast sums of wealth to the royal family, the Bush family has been paid now we pay. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/saudi.html

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Re: Some election comments...

By Cfraserh, Haps33 at Nov 13, 2004 02:30 AM
Well, despite it's largely frightening consequences, I think peak oil and its subsequent effects on both the world and the United States, for those lucky enough to get through the next several decades without being bombed or worse, will force the kinds of problems on all of us that can only be solved by the kinds of solutions we're already talking about. Being someone who has little doubt that all of us will be feeling the serious effects of it sooner than we'd like, I know I would like to see more discussion about it in leftist circles. I say this only because I personally have not seen or heard it discussed much (although that appears to be changing) and the ramifications once we realize it already HAS happened will be devestating. Anyway, I'm done, sorry for the peak oil rant, flat earthers flame away ;)

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Re: Some election comments...

By Historybuff, Anarchist at Nov 12, 2004 23:40 PM
There will never be a viable alternative as long as the electorial process remains. The only hope for any social change is if, a. revolution takes place, or b. if we come together in order to provide an alternative example of how to live outside the capitlist system. If B happens, we can hope that it will spread, or at least give people a look into a different way to live life. Before this can take place, we need more action. There definitely needs to be more acting, period. Underground groups, radicalization of the universities, sit-ins, teach-ins, all these need to come back. Leftists and other fellow radaicals need to get out into the streets, join forces, and struggle for change. I'm out here. I'm waiting for other radicals. I am always hearing all this "talk", yet no action: I call on all of you: If you want change, let's do this--now.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Kma, Kevinarchibald at Nov 12, 2004 12:39 PM
Especially in light of Chomksy's comments above about how meaningless this election was, and about how many issues were off the table, I'd love to hear from Chomsky on why he decided to sign off on the vote2stopbush.com petition that advocated voting for Kerry in swing states. I voted for Cobb, but I have to agree with Nader that issues were off the table because progressives, and this especially goes for high-profile progressives such as Chomsky, Zinn, and Mooree, essentially gave Kerry their vote by not advocating an aggressive presidential campaign in all states. Now I agree we people who say the best progressive advertising is to start local and work upwards, where each success gains the confidence of the people in giving our candidates more power. But, if as Chomsky says, we're already substantial, then we could have made a difference in at least the last two presidential elections, when many believed the elections were going to be close, and it was all about turnout. Like a union going on strike, we could have refused to vote for Kerry, unless important progressive issues were part of the party platform, stump speeches, and debates.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 12, 2004 04:21 AM
Slaves to capitalism do not have time to care about what is going on in the world. Survival in a dog eat dog culture. Running just to keep up, and stop from being run over. Working and not thinking.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Georges1202, Biff_blightly at Nov 12, 2004 03:23 AM
Noam, I would like to share your optimism on the state of activism in this country. I have been attempting to organize a political disccusion group in San Francisco, one of the most progressive cities in the country, for a month now. This is hosted by The Nation magazine. Thye sent out 280 postcards to their subscribers & ran ads in the mag. Of the 280 seached, I got nine responses, most with little commitment. And this in a time when politics is at a fever pitch.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Nov 12, 2004 02:07 AM
I'm thinking it comes down to supply and demand principles. If we form groups of people who voice similar demands, then some or another political group has to offer to do what we want, in exchange for votes. The thing is that without demand, there's no incentive for supply. So, sure, using Hollywood is one place to raise awareness on issues. (As are the five-minute chats by the water cooler, which may have more credibility.) But it seems even more complex than that. It's like the way many of the super-brands in the commercial world make you feel like you belong to a certain community, or culture. We need something like that, but in a way that's not just an echo-chamber. It has to connect with moderates and do it in a way where they may come to choose (from within) to demand the important issues of fairness, basically.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Cfraserh, Haps33 at Nov 12, 2004 01:20 AM
At this point, it is very difficult for most of us to have any faith in the electoral process to provide any kind of realizable alternative to the status quo. On a cynical note, I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if there will even BE another American election in any sense that we have come to know. On the other hand, we shouldn't take for granted the power that we do still have. I think the problem is when people decide it has to be one or the other or throw away what rights they do have left because "nothing will change anyway" - we should take advantage of ALL legitimate opportunities for change, be they the opportunity to vote, the opportunity to participate in your community etc. One thing is certain: there are no easy answers.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 11, 2004 18:44 PM
One need look no further than Bush for proof that a mind can be so irrationally indoctrinated into a false belief system (Christianity & Democracy) as to become godlike and use whatever means available to judge others and accomplish whatever his bede little brain believes is "right". Might makes right$$$$$$$$$$$$ All humanity is simililarly flawed. There will never be concensus among men as we are all indoctrinated into false beliefs. 100 wise men going in the wrong direction! Who is to say. Money always trumps. Always has always will. That is the history of the world. Life is about "cash flow". Period.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Cak48, Isay at Nov 11, 2004 10:50 AM
We can't afford to shrug our collective shoulders and let suspected voting fraud slide simply because it has always happened, because it always will happen, because it might not have affected the final outcome of this election, or because it will be very difficult to discover and prove in court. Doing so will only feed the voracious appetite of a rapidly growing problem until it becomes such a huge monster that it will be difficult if not impossible to defeat. We need to think bigger than our immediate situation; we need to consider future generations of voters - seven generations ahead, as did the Native Americans.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Cak48, Isay at Nov 11, 2004 10:49 AM
Unverifiable black box voting systems which render meaningful recounts impossible will ultimately disenfranchise every voter. We owe it to every future voter to encourage thorough investigations of all apparent irregularities in our recent election and, whenever sufficient evidence is found, to press for prosecution of all those involved. Such efforts should be undertaken, not for the purpose of attempting to change the results of this election (though I'd be much happier if Kerry were to be declared the winner), but for the purpose of ensuring as clean an electoral system as possible for the future of our country - as well as for the future of the world. (continued)

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Re: Some election comments...

By Cak48, Isay at Nov 11, 2004 10:47 AM
I disagree that fraud, on whatever scale it happened, was not a significant aspect of the election. I say that even though there has probably never been and probably never will be a completely clean presidential election. The problem is that recently in our history it has become far easier to manipulate the vote tallies than it ever has been in the past, and this trend will only continue to escalate unless dramatic action is taken to stem the momentum of electronic vote manipulation and to help ensure the cleanliness of our voting process. (continued)

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Re: Some election comments...

By Cak48, Isay at Nov 11, 2004 10:46 AM
The Bush campaign garnered as much support as it did, in great part, by exploiting the fears of the people - both real fears and imaginary fears which the campaign worked to create. Most people live their lives in fear rather in love, so that was an easy thing for them to exploit. It's unfortunate that it's almost impossible to sell a package of love when someone else is selling fear. Of course, the Democrats weren't selling love, only their variety of fear, and the Republicans had already pretty much cornered the market and were busy saturating it. (continued)

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Re: Some election comments...

By Cak48, Isay at Nov 11, 2004 10:45 AM
I agree that voting for either Bush or Kerry primarily consisted of voting for the image created by and for one or the other, but that's nothing new in our politics ever since TV became the main medium of communication for politicians. It's simply becoming more so as time goes on, which is something that could hardly be considered progress. The essence of modern politics is about creating a package and trying to sell it, which is no different than what happens in our modern consumer economy. The sad reality is that so many people are willing to buy enticing packages without even knowing whether or not they contain anything of value. The sales pitch for whatever is being offered focuses on manipulation of the consumer by creating an atmosphere that produces a sense of desire or need based on fear rather than making an offer to fill a real need. (continued)

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Re: Some election comments...

By Fashionquote, Shunt at Nov 11, 2004 07:34 AM
Nice post Ali. Whether Conservatism is cyclical or not, it is certain that the currency on all these crazy fundamentalist talk shows has been immediatley devalued. Just today I heard one of the more rabid ones merely talking about whether or not to use a night light in his childs room, and the callers were flooding in with either "yes you should" or "no you shouldnt". Quite toned down from "the libs are destroying america!!!" or "the libtards love saddam hussein!!!". Safe to say we will see more toning down in the weeks to come...and in time maybe Hitchens will switch sides again, and basically just alter his clinton "no one left to lie to book" to a bush and freinds book titled "no one left to blame", because they are in charge now...and whatever they screw up, yes they can point fingers...but the finger pointing wont be taken as seriously by the masses as in the past. Or at least I hope!

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Re: Some election comments...

By Cfraserh, Haps33 at Nov 11, 2004 06:33 AM
> It's really very simple. Who controls Hollywood ? Liberals or conservatives ? I guess that would depend on your definition of who "controls" Hollywood and what a liberal and a conservative are. I'm sure the vast majority of the entertainment industry is economically conservative. They need to be, in part, in order to exist (after all, they are an industry). I certainly don't think that any significant amount of people with power in the entertainment industry (which is not actors or actresses who speak out against the war, it's the people who sign their check) would ever agree to commit as a whole, or even in part, to such a thing as you suggest. Which, of course, is unfortunate, but almost undeniable. There is no question that people who actually believe such things need to be educated, as we all do. However, I don't think anyone is going to come to our rescue, and especially not a multi-million dollar industry based largely on sex and violence. The idea that Hollywood is "liberal" seems nothing more than a Republican catchphrase usually spewed while promoting their great passion for "family values".

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Re: Some election comments...

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Nov 11, 2004 04:53 AM
There are countless conspiracy sites on the web run by a variety of Christians. Christians are very susceptible to conspiracy theories. They believe life is a conspiracy against them, by atheists, demons, satan, etc. It won't take much to convinve them that the Republicans [and Democrats] are part of a conspiracy of deception to use them. This is easy to instill as the new paradigm because it is true, documented, provable. This process will take the cooperation of the entertainment industry. Democrats are for the most part, Republicans. The only difference is how they want to impose corporate control and exploit the masses. So Democrats cannot be posited as the champions, 1) It's not true 2) It will seem like a partisan trick. We need to portray the truth, for the truth will set us free. We need to fight fire with fire, convincing the religious community that they have been cheated, is very easy. But it needs to be done right. And it needs to be comprehensive.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Nov 11, 2004 04:45 AM
We need to take the high ground. That is what BushCo has done. They have the religious high ground, they can do no wrong, and everyone else can do no right. Once that paradigm is destroyed then BushCo has their base of support destroyed and the entire country will be against the Republican/Democrat Fascist Order. It's not difficult. It takes the will of the entertainment industry to work for the common good. Republicans gained the support of the religious communties through lies and propaganda. This needs to be a constant, recurring theme, drilled into the heads of anyone who watches T.V or goes to the movies. It needs to be both subtle, and overt, implicit and explicit, and above all, constant and thorough and comprehensive. It needs to be taken fro granted that the Republicans are completely sold out to Atheist One World Government Bankers and Foreign Non Christian Elites, and that they have used and fooled the Christians, made saps out of them. This paradigm has to become the new paradigm in the religious communites. It already is amongst a minority of them. cont.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Nov 11, 2004 04:35 AM
We can either change the way the religious communties see the Republican party, or we can change the way the Repulican party and it's financial and secretive supporters [Democrats, finanical elites, corporatopia] think of as their own best interest. How to do this ? It's really very simple. Who controls Hollywood ? Liberals or conservatives ? If Hollywood mobilized, led by a well thought out strategy, the truth can be set free, minds can be liberated from the prisons of fear. The Christian right supports BushCo out of fear. Fear of God. What needs to be done is to use movies and television programs for something other then selling seats. What Michael Moore has done is indicative of what can happen. Although his approach is the wrong approach to use. How can you change the religious community? Break through their brainwashing ? Simply spewing invective, even if true, at the Republicans will not work. They are on the side of God, they do God's will. THAT needs to be changed. We need to change the paradigm. God is not on the Republican side, and we need to prove it, using Hollywood's resources. cont.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Maahaadave, Gurudave at Nov 11, 2004 04:24 AM
You guys are not strategists, you may have good hearts, but strategy is not your strong point. The answer to the problem has two solutions, either one will work. The pen is mightier then the sword, in this media centric age that maxim was never more true. How do the Republicans gain the support from their base ? It's the oldest trick of subversion in the book i.e Divide and conquer. They have successfully divided the religious communities from the rest of the populace. By doing this they have been able to eliminate all but "moral" issues in the political discussion amongst the religious communities. They have propagandized the religious polity into believing that the Repulicans are doing God's work. This means that whatever they do[BushCo], even if it is clearly wrong, matters not to the religious communities. They are on the side of the angels, and thats all she wrote. With this simple fact it doesn't matter what the opposition thinks or does. There are enough religious supporters and mechanisms of control [fraud etc] to make any kind of inroads into the political power structure by the champions of justice, at the present, untenable. cont.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Cfraserh, Haps33 at Nov 11, 2004 03:21 AM
Anyway, he was arrested after showing up at the debates and loudly requesting inclusion and his court date fell on the first day of the DNC. Has there been any change in the Democratic Party since 1992 to keep this from happening again? I hope so, but I doubt it. I think there are some very real changes for the better that can be made by taking advantage of the Democratic Party; however, there is very clearly a limit to their debate. Of course, this isn't news, but it's still important to remind ourselves.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Cfraserh, Haps33 at Nov 11, 2004 03:01 AM
Just a side comment here: The question of whether the Democrats ARE in fact willing to take a stand on anything like this is questionable. As a Canadian it's impossible for me to talk from any experience, but it does seem to me that there are at least parts of the Democratic party that, to some degree, represent and help people. On the other hand, it's hard to forget that during the primaries of the 1992 election, the Democratic Party literally had a candidate arrested (named Larry Aigran (sp?) one who just happened to have proposed massive military spending cuts, I think it was something like 50%). As far as I can tell, it would be very close to the Democratic party having Dennis Kucinich arrested in terms of the similar amount of support for each. When Aigran came ahead higher in the polls for a while (still a small percentage), his name was simply left out of most reported polls. He was barred from participation in one of the major debates; the reason given was something to do with Aigran not meeting the minimum standards (determined by the Democratic Party as far as I can remember) of "media experience" or something equally ridiculous.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Valdillman, Valdillman at Nov 11, 2004 02:21 AM
We live in an America where poor communities don't have equal access to jobs, education or healthcare. And if the Dems. aren't willing to take a real stand and fight for those issues, it's heartbreakingly naive to expect on election day that these same communities will have equal access to the polls. I worked for the past 6 months to get out the vote. So now we need something to vote for. Truly.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Valdillman, Valdillman at Nov 11, 2004 02:20 AM
The elections weren't honest. And yes there was fraud, and intimidation, the Republicans have skills.( And yes that does matter.) But for the Democrats to put a lid on the anti-war movement and expect to be swept into victory on "check out my plan on the website www.johnkerry.com" rhetoric is naive. If the people had been given a clear and honest choice between continuing the war and a foreign policy based on pre-emptive strikes and global bullying and a policy based on protecting workers rights and human rights here and abroad then at least if they chose the former it would have been clear. The Democrats at this point aren't willing to lay it on the line and stand up for Universal Healthcare, and corporate cullpability, and civil rights. They expect the left to hang on tight to their centrist mumblings.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Nov 11, 2004 02:18 AM
Gaius_Gracchus, so you're saying that a large part of it will be to build on the equity that already exists in the churches and other groups, right? To that extent, it would be great it we could assign a new meaning to "Democratic Party," by getting more progressive people inside, and changing the platform over time, all the while keeping the name recognition of the party. (I have to admit that viability seems to correlate highly with name recognition.) It's still important to have active independent groups, but I'm thinking more and more that we have to focus on shifting the mainstream from the inside-out. Kind of "winning the hearts and minds" of the U.S. public. Thoughts on that?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Ssaffari, Ssaffari at Nov 11, 2004 01:59 AM
Professor Chomsky; would you please make some berief comments on the sitiuation in Ivory Coast. I'm a bit confused as to what is happening there. Why would the French assult the Ivorian planes and air base? Was it in response to the death of the nine French peacekeepers? I am under the impression that the Ivorian air strike that killed the French peace keepers was in fact against the rebels in the north and the killing of the peace keepers was merely an accident. Moreover I am wondering why the international community and the peace activists around the world are not responding to the attacks by the French. In a world where the peace activists respond to every move by the Americans its seems as though we have forgotten about the French and other European countries. Don't get me wrong, I have participated in every anti-war protest in the past 3 years but I care about the Ivorians just as much as the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. I would really appreciate your response. Regards Siavash Saffari

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Re: Some election comments...

By Jmonaco, Gaius_gracchus at Nov 11, 2004 01:28 AM
I must say that I disagree with 7 natures. In my experience people are afraid but they have good reason to be afraid and often have some insight into the origins of their fear. If they try to form a union they will get fired, if they ask for too much at work they will get fired... if they stick their necks out too far they will get fired. Also, most people have a good enough view of the world they see around them but it is only through communication with others, what should be called education, that they can obtain a larger view. For this it is necessary for all of us to educate and organize each other.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Shannon, James at Nov 11, 2004 00:48 AM
Fear vs Anger. Most Americans have been so totally brainwashed as to be incapable of knowing or admitting that their indoctrination into irrational belief systems, are most likely false. By the time most reach adulthood they are so damaged as to be only capable of existance. Thinking about truth and reality are far to frightening or enraging as to pre-empt meaningful and productive critical thought. The integrative complexity of any society is beyond the intellectual capacity of most humans to understand or act upon. We therfore look to leaders who are smarter than us. Unfortunately what we have gotten from Regan foward are cunning Politicians that now game the system for the wealthy.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Jmonaco, Gaius_gracchus at Nov 11, 2004 00:17 AM
Finally, I would like to say that organizing around our workplaces does not only mean trying to organize a union. Who knows what kind of future organizations we can evolve? They may not be unions. But I am at a loss to think of what other kind of stable organizations we can support that will provide a longer term institutional foundation for the "progressive" agenda except for workplace based organizations. I hope I am only stating the obvious.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Jmonaco, Gaius_gracchus at Nov 11, 2004 00:17 AM
There is some truth to these criticism, but when one sees the courageous attempts of mostly African-American workers to form a union in a chicken processing factory in the south and the brutal tactics the owners use to crush such attempts one does know which side to choose in such struggles. So may I suggest that we try to stick our necks out at our own workplaces and try to form groups to talk about these issues? May also suggest that we try to educate our liberal friends on the need for all of us to have more power through organization among wage earners in our work places.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Jmonaco, Gaius_gracchus at Nov 11, 2004 00:16 AM
Yet without the institutional support of a strong union movement or of work-place based organizations of some sort, without the education and resources such organizations can provide, there will be no stable progressive organizations that serve the left in the way right-wing churche organizations serve the right. This is where I run into trouble with some of my "liberal" friends and maybe even with some of the readers of ZNET. There are so many people in their 20s and 30s who simply think that it is either impossible to form a union (they may be accurately judging reality) or believe that unions are a conglomeration of gangsters or that they are stodgy old conservative organizations.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Jmonaco, Gaius_gracchus at Nov 11, 2004 00:15 AM
I think that this is only saying that our society is so diverse that organizing around progressive soical and economic issues is necessarily secular. Traditionally the most stable support for "left" and "progressive" issues has been workers organizations of various sorts. This is simply a truism. Also the the most stable worker's organization have been unions. Here is where we are stalled. We must continue to organize people around their work places and we must continue to educate people on the values of solidarity, etc., but for the moment, for most of us, this is a limited possibility. I do not discount international solidarity groups, civil and human rights groups, etc. We must continue to work to build such organizations.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Jmonaco, Gaius_gracchus at Nov 11, 2004 00:13 AM
Continued 3 On the other hand small local organziations rarely develop into the kind of national network we need except in regard to narrow issues -- reproductive rights, envrionment, Central American Intervention, etc. There are many "progressive" church organizations in the U.S. so there is no need to reject religious organizations in a dogmatic manner, but it is hard to see that in the long run Church organizations will be the major institutional support for progressive organizing. One reason for this is that a Church organization is by definition concerned with doctrinal issues that can only be called sectarian. Church organizations can help provided a space for progressive political and worker's organization but I doubt that in our society they will be the major instituions of the "left." I may be wrong. I certainly saw a contrary example in Central America in the 1980s. But I think in our society, even the Civil Rights movement of the post war era (which may be taken as a church based progressive movement to a large extent) of necessity became a secular movement when dealing with larger social and economic issues that formed the foundation of racism.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Jmonaco, Gaius_gracchus at Nov 11, 2004 00:11 AM
Continued In our society the two sectors that provide stable venues for organizing are the work-place and the various churches. These are the two major choices for places to spend our organizing time. There are of course other choices but the problem with them is that with out outside institutional support human rights organizations, civil rights organizations, etc. are not self-supporting. Unless they are very small and local they quickly become dependent on institutional forces that influence their direction away from grass-roots activisms.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Jmonaco, Gaius_gracchus at Nov 11, 2004 00:09 AM
Chomsky's election comments are on point. But the question we should be thinking about is the basic one of how, where, and what kind of organizations we should build. There are no simple solutions here and no substitutions for the hard work of everyday self-education and activist self-help. Organizations evolve in the course of building them and often we are unable to see what we are making when we begin. Reality surprises. Yet if we are going to help build the kind of society, based on human values of solidarity, human decency, the end of suffering amid abundance, etc -- the society most of us long for, we must have lasting social and educational institutions of our own. I am just stating the obvious.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Rotmil, Adamrotmil at Nov 10, 2004 23:52 PM
I'm curious to hear what people think about the "viable political alternative" that we often talk about, usually in the abstract sense. Apparently, it wasn't Ralph Nader, although I personally voted for him in Massachusetts (which went to Kerry 2:1, predictably). So what will be this alternative, and what will make it viable, unlike the many fine alternatives that are non-viable because they get 1% of the votes.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Vramesh36, Krishna at Nov 10, 2004 20:45 PM
While I appreciate the "meta-scope" that Mr. Chomsky is taking - and agree, for the most part, that Kerry and Bush were two heads of the same coin - I think that there is one unfortunate consequence of the coin landing "Bush" that he did not point out. And, perhaps, it is a consequence that only effects those American males ages 18-25 - that being the threat of a military draft. Even if one sets aside all the allegations of movements in the Senate and Congress to set in motion a draft, and Bush's own botched speech on the topic (where he accidently said there would not be an all-volunteer army, when he meant to say there would - a twisted freudian slip, perhaps?) - the basic fact of living in a nation at constant war must be accounted for. 4 years (assuming no massive social uprising/impeachement/consciousness evolution of humanity) of Bush means 4 years of war - pressuring an already sparse US military. I, for one, am planning on marrying a close friend to obtain Danish citizenship - the prospect of free higher-education, universal health-care, and not running the risk of being sent to kill so that power and money can continue in their endless cycle seems a good one to me.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Hong, Peggy at Nov 10, 2004 15:37 PM
(part 2 of 2; forgive my wordiness) I can also point out numerous examples regarding the environment, the economy, education, health care, etc, but you all know these figures, as we all agree that this administration is one of the most harmful the world has experienced. As always, activism must be multifaceted. Many of us participated in elections, voter registrations, etc, and that work is not wasted. And now that the election is over, we have more time to continue our other work. Here in Milwaukee, Peace Action is sending busloads to the School of Americas, WILPF is doing a workshop on peace education and children's books, we're hosting our monthly soup and salad salon to discuss issues of the day, and so forth. But my daily work in activism is thwarted by voting fraud. Not only did Kerry lose, according to our current numbers, but many progressive local candidates failed to get elected as well. Who knows how many votes they really got? We must make it a very high priority to fix our broken system so we have verifiable voting. Otherwise, what was the use of women's suffrage and the civil rights movement?

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Re: Some election comments...

By Hong, Peggy at Nov 10, 2004 15:35 PM
While voting and elections serve as the laziest, haziest way to get involved in politics, it remains an important entry point for millions of people into the governing process. I agree that elections have turned into hoopla and nearly meaningless PR opportunities. I also agree that Kerry failed to address our most significant issues. Still, I think we have to use every means possible to address our concerns, from the least to the most specialized, from the most general to the most specific. To that end, we must participate in electoral politics on any level we can muster, whether that means running for public office or choosing to vote for the first time based on what little information we have. I'm afraid the election does matter, and the fraud perpetrated this time around (though not new) will have an impact. If we'd put Gore into office in 2000, would we be responsible for 100,000 dead in Iraq since March, 2003? True, the sanctions under Clinton were massively destructive. Yet, according to the Lancet, the death rate has increased since the new war in Iraq, from .5% to .8%. Does that .3% really matter? (part 1 of 2)

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Re: Some election comments...

By Tchrist7, Tedc at Nov 10, 2004 07:25 AM
For those who want a meaningful cut at voter understanding you can get it at. www.pipa.org Download and read "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters". Bush supporters are simply trying to feel good about themselves in clinging to good opinions of Bush. Nothing unusual about humans doing this.They have had enormous and redundant opportunities to understand the miserable performance of the Bush administration. Humans - here and abroad and any social/economic framework - are greatly challenged to treat outsiders, females, and nature decently. Individuals sufficently interested can move on these challenges but they're ability to steer others is very limited.

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Re: Some election comments...

By Banzelle-z, Bonzle at Nov 10, 2004 01:40 AM
I think many folks are feeling particularly demoralized, simply because they know that what they managed to squeeze into their busy lives to get involved, may not be enough at the end of the day. The uphill climb to battle the imperialistic agenda is getting steeper and steeper (with no help from our so-called friends in the Democratic party). Yes, elections are PR extravaganzas, however, as you pointed out, the subtle differences between the 2 will have a great impact on many people. Most likely at the lower end of the economic spectrum, of course. And that does matter. I am hopeful that those who are already active will continue to be. As far as engaging others and expanding the reach of truthful information, I find that even post-election that when I discuss certain topics, folks (on the left and right) are not willing swallow the truth. The radical right has done a superb job in closing off discussions of real issues, but we have to work much, much harder at opening up those lines of communication (and by that I don't mean moving to the center).

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