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The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Noam Chomsky at Sep 04, 2005

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…The Bush administration (like the Reagan administration) has a particularly difficult task, and the Bush faction is pretty much a narrow reactionary statist extreme of the Reaganites -- who were a narrow reactionary statist extreme of the narrow bipartisan spectrum (most Reagan policies extended late Carter policies). The Bush administration has to deal with the fact that the last 25 years have been an unusual, probably unique, period of American economic history. For the large majority, real wages have stagnated or declined, working hours have increased, benefits have shrunk, rights have been denied (including the right to organize, basically rescinded under Reagan and since), and wealth has been concentrated in a tiny part of the population. To keep the population in line requires major efforts of all sorts, which have been carried out intensively. They are even harder than before because there's no resort to "the Russians are coming" technique for instilling fear and obedience. There are similarities to rise of fascism, which have been pointed out right in the mainstream. One of the leading scholars of Modern Germany, Fritz Stern, had an article in Foreign Affairs a few months back on the "descent into barbarism" of Germany in the 1930s. His family came to the US as refugees in the 30s, and he opens by saying that he now worries about his adopted country. He then runs through the techniques of national mobilization used by Hitler to drive a society that was the pride of Western civilization to the depths of barbarism. Each one is an implicit reference, which can't be missed, to the Bush administration.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Flevente, Flevente at Nov 01, 2005 02:34 AM
In fact the Nazis borrowed American election propaganda methods to win the German elections (marches, slogans, etc) that might also explain some of the similarities

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Mjc7373, Mcorbin at Oct 30, 2005 08:00 AM
"People tend to relativize the suffering of others and coin convenient terms to give creedence to their opposing position." I hear what you're saying but I hate to think I should be hesitant to point out fascism when I see it because the degree of suffering inflicted in one case does not measure up to the suffering inflicted in other cases in history. I doubt most holocaust survivors would want us to be less then zealous in our acknowledgement of and resistance to fascism.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Profoblivion, Dziga1972 at Oct 29, 2005 21:28 PM
The U.S. has a propoganda machine which is just as powerful as that of Nazi Germany, only more insidious -- a general lack of content and critical thinking in mainstream media. To say that the U.S. doesn't resort to a "the Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!" fear tactic misses the point. The Russians have just been replaced with nameless/faceless terrorists. In order to keep the military/industrial complex in power, it must keep the population in a state of submission. How could they accomplish this without resorting to the same fear tactics used during the Cold War?

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Carboiii, 1americafirst at Oct 05, 2005 06:42 AM
I use a quote from 'Stephen King's film The Stand.' "The world shall end with a whimper not a bang..." In other words the very fabric of America is being torn asunder, laws and policies enacted, that set the table for impending disasters to come. We expect something to happen immediately that we would notice, but what if these things happen so gradually as for us to not pay attention until enough acts occur that make it impossible to ignore. America reminds me of the last days of the Roman empire, the parallels are staggering, and you know what happened to them.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Andrewh, Andrewh at Oct 05, 2005 03:53 AM
Continued... (I can't have written 1700 words!) But I would also say that your post reveals that we aren't talking about 'fascism', but comparing one example of fascism with the US and asking, "Are they the same?" Well, of course not! There may be no brownshirts on the street (er...) but it does exist, it's merely *managed*. A great oppressor can't be seen to be oppressing. But try to get a truly power-challenging idea out there in sufficient volume to affect an election. That might only be when the wolf shows it's teeth, so to speak. Although, as far as I've read, I think we're painting a slightly kind picture of the political culture. There's a great discussion between Chomsky and a UK journalist, Andrew Marr (political editor of the BBC, no less), which covers this very topic: http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/interviews/9602-big-idea.html I happen to think Noam is right on the money.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Andrewh, Andrewh at Oct 05, 2005 03:32 AM
Hi Jonas, Your question suggests that you are thinking of fascism in terms of 'social organisation', but I'm not sure what that precisely means. I can say that, merely in logical terms, military spending would necessarily have an impact on the way a government 'organises society', as the military is an arm of the government, and generally holds similar goals. If the military wasn't there, there would be a difference for the rest of us, namely, more money. (You probably didn't mean it like that though!) Also, the military as a whole is a key delimeter of what is secret and not secret, alongside the intelligence agencies and other state apparatus. Yes we are all keepers of secrets, but I think that the act of secrecy is a key tool of government, helping to preserve a certain social order. (I'm ill so can't really spiel on, but I guess I don't understand where you get the *separation* from :-)

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Cacioppo, Jonas at Oct 04, 2005 19:23 PM
I'm not going to compare the horrors of Nazi Germany with anything happening now within our country because there's no comparison. I want to address, however, what AndrewH said. There's no government censorship of the media in the U.S. The journalistic masochism is, of course, self-inflicted. Also, policies may appear 'authoritarian', but the processes by which they are created and the structures in which those processes take place are not. And here's a jump-off question: What does military spending, however exorbitant, have to do with social organization?

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Carboiii, 1americafirst at Oct 03, 2005 07:16 AM
It's silly to pull out dictionary's too prove if we "live in a fascist" society. The Fact remains that if there is nothing to hide, then why are you passing such an important act as the Patriot Act in the middle of the night? Could it be that you don't want anyone to read it? I also find it stunning that the people that passed it, never read it! Would you not read the contract of a new car, home, or piece of land you were about to buy? If not, you're a moron because anything could be written into it. What happens when the day comes when someone writes into these acts a clause abolishing the constitution and the Bill of Rights, no one reads it, passes it, and it becomes law? It's called a dictatorship, and whoops it did happen before in Nazi Germany! We must question that which does not appear above the boards. It should be government for the people, not people under the government. We supposedly elected these officials, they should have to answer for their behavior. Instead they parade around the legislature like so many kings and queens. They only "pretend" to pay attention to us around election time, then once they get in, turn a deaf ear. We must hold them accountable.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Andrewh, Andrewh at Oct 03, 2005 03:32 AM
I agree I don't address specifically how America could be called a 'fascist' state, but I did point out some motifs that could lead one to suspect it. To answer your questions properly would require a thesis - I must respectfully decline! But noting your first response above, it's an interesting question whether fascism is a type of executive mechanism - top down - or merely a set of attitudes that define the way a government acts in relation to the majority of its populace and the rest of the world. The disdain the Bush office shows for law, human rights, etc. certainly places it close to what we might think of as a 'classic' fascist government, in my opinion.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Cacioppo, Jonas at Oct 03, 2005 02:48 AM
I admit that fascism does not necessarily have to be overt, but that does not address whether we live in a fascist state. Well, let me ask you: do you think we are living in such a state and, if so, why? More specifically, as you cite Gentile's definition, is there an actual "merger" between state and corporate power structures in the United States; that is, are they one and the same, one bundle (fascis)?

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Andrewh, Andrewh at Oct 02, 2005 01:30 AM
The point is, I think, that even if you aren't convinced that the specific conditions you have outlined might not be in place (even though they are, with heavy censorship in mainstream press, authoritarian government, increases in military spending etc.) actual fascism does not have to come in any set form. The Eco article articulates this well. However the 'foundations' of the USA were arrived at is irrelevant when confronted with a government like this one. They brought the Patriot Act to law, and are now contemplating dropping Posse Comitatus. What has occurred in the past is obviously no concern to them. You mention 'state regulation of society' as a necessary condition, but I'd say that just because it's not overt control doesn't mean that it's not there. This is a Chomsky blog entry after all, the guy famed for uncovering this realisation through his work with Herman. IMHO we are already there, throughout the West - there's the famous quote from Giovanni Gentile: "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." That may not be a publicly acknowledged reality, but it's surely been the case for a long time. Fascism doesn't have to tell you it's there. In fact, like the Devil, to be most effective it would call itself Ultimate Freedom. Sound familiar?

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Cacioppo, Jonas at Oct 02, 2005 00:14 AM
I refuse to believe that America under the presidency of George W. Bush has either become or is becoming fascist, is adopting 'protofascist' principles or anything of the sort. It is first necessary to define the subject so we can see if it applies to the present administration. The Oxford-American Dictionary defines "fascism" as "an authoritarian or nationalistic" form of "social organization", generally. The key elements of fascism, as far as I know from this what else I've read, is the state regulation of society in which there is a strong, pervasive appeal for the concept of, say, 'one people - one nation' or that sort of thing, embodied in a strong authority at the top that rules absolutely through coercion. What we are faced with is immoral policy enacted on our behalf through our elected representatives, not fascism. A good example to prove this is the Internet, at least in this country. ZMag Blog would be shut down instantly, from the discretion of the state, if we are indeed living under a fascist government. All dissident literature, as it were, would be banned. No 'Democracy Now!' programs or the like. Certainly no blogosphere, which has a great capacity to shape public opinion. The foundations upon which the federal government was based are antithetical to the very idea of fascism. At the least, we are certainly not seeing de jure fascism here. Whether it is de facto is highly debatable; for the above reasons and more I stake out my opposition.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Mrbingo, Joeybingo at Oct 01, 2005 12:31 PM
I just finished reading "Backing Hitler" by Robert Gellately. It describes the Nazis use of propaganda in Germany to openly sell Fascism much the same way the Bush Administration is selling it to the American people. Very scary!!!

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Antiamerican800, Bernardo at Oct 01, 2005 04:56 AM
I think all physical culture nuts are either overtly or covertly Nazi. Mussolini posing in front of the Coliseum and horseback riding, Hitler's vegetarianism and Olympics, Stalin's rugged peasant persona. Such anti-intellectualism is not exclusively of Rightist's either there's a substantial anti-intellectual Left today as well. And the U.S. inherits a good deal of this sweaty aspect of European culture, as is obvious in the popular culture and educational establishment.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Vandeveer_kkcr-fm, D.michael at Sep 29, 2005 06:09 AM
"Amy Goodman and Noam Chomsky Millionaires", what silleyness !! People can write, post and publish all kinds of lies and distortions, this is one.. Please join me, D.MICHAEL VAN DE VEER , Tomorrow Sept. 29 on OUT OF THE BOX-KKCR-FM www.kkcr.org 12 noon HST9 (3PM-PDT 6-PM EDT) our Special Guest is CELESTE ZAPALLA CO-FOUNDER GOLD STAR FAMALIES FOR PEACE.... Call-In Toll-Free 1-866-275-1112 PS Don't look for "fascism" in every thing or person whom you do not agree with. You might just miss the forest for the trees.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Antiamerican800, Bernardo at Sep 29, 2005 03:44 AM
I read at www.discoverthenetwork.org that Noam Chomsky and radio journalist Amy Goodman are both millionaires. I wonder if there is any accuracy to that claim? I don't consider people who want their personal sexual idiosyncracies legtimated within dominant groups revolutionary. They're just people with personal problems. Much of feminism today falls in this category I think.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Vandeveer_kkcr-fm, D.michael at Sep 22, 2005 21:29 PM
Aloha from Hanalei Kauai, Well I guess we are lucky at KKCR-FM www.kkcr.org Noam Chomsky is a "friend of Community Radio" and we never pay.... Please join us today 12 Noon HST(3PM PDT)(6PM EDT) Maybe there are those who spend time trying to find "fault", which is in everything, rather than finding what is instructive and useful ????

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Wshirley, Willied at Sep 22, 2005 17:38 PM
Wow. This "the-abyss" character scares me sometimes. I can't follow their logic very well at all. I mean, why is it a bad thing for a professor to use the title "Professor"? Why is it a bad thing for a speaker to be paid for speaking? Even Ollie North gets paid for speaking and he's a definite psychotic. I never even read Prof. Chomsky until I was researching fascism's roots to understand why my country was sounding more and more like pre-war Germany. I Googled 'fascism' and found one of his articles. I don't worship the guy or consider him to be infallible, but he makes sense to me, especially when you follow up his references and those of his detractors. So why do I get the feeling that "the-abyss" is a hired gun of the administration paid to insult and distract from an otherwise interesting discussion? I suspect it's the cute/childish way they write 'Chom$ky' instead of 'Chomsky' and then adds that row of dollar signs. Such insight, such depth of meaning, so "George Bush-like"! Amazing. Really reminds me of a kid trying to get into an adult discussion at a party by jumping up and down and yelling, "Look at me!" ah well....

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Vandeveer_kkcr-fm, D.michael at Sep 18, 2005 21:51 PM
Please join D.Michael Van De Veer Host-OUT OF THE BOX_KKCR-FM.....Sept.22-12 Noon HST-3PM PDT-6PM EDT The Special Guest is NOAM CHOMSKY Listen on the World Wide Web... www.kkcr.org Call-In Toll Free 1-866-275-1112

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Chester0275, Chester2575 at Sep 17, 2005 06:38 AM
shmity72: "That's what i mean. Did I make myself clear?" I apologize for not making what exactly I am not clear on more precise. (Please correct me the-abyss if I am misrepresenting your argument) I believe the-abyss is basically stating or implying that Prof. Chomsky is greedy. Let's say for the sake of argument that this is true. I fail to see how this has any bearing on the argument posed in this blog about the correlations of fascism and the Bush administration, especially when the heart of the argument is posed by Fritz Stern. shmity72: "P.S.S. Let us now turn to the original argument." I agree that is what I'm trying to do. Prehaps I went about it in the wrong way.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Jasons888, Shmity72 at Sep 17, 2005 00:05 AM
"Each one is an implicit reference, which can't be missed" I would disagree. Perhaps written instead of 'can't' should have been written 'ought not to have'. Otherwise, it is a well written and thought out piece, in my opinion. But hey, that's why we're posting here right? So that we might exchange opinions rather than 'flameing' each other on. also, this particular blog post, I want to say, shows the kind of bravery that IS necessary to get shit done. Pun intended. sincerely, JDS

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Jasons888, Shmity72 at Sep 16, 2005 23:26 PM
"defemation of character or source is welcome. But come on..." What it is that i mean is: The discredidation of a source of information, in this case Professor Chomsky's modes oporendi...maybe and 'should' be examined as a reason for his arguments. Sensationalistic profiteering? I highly doubt it. Yet I welcome any evidence that may prove contrary. That's what i mean. Did I make myself clear? :) P.S. Perhaps i 'should' have written discreditation instead of defemation. weren't sure if'n that was a word though and I was looking to jazz up the blog. P.S.S. Let us now turn to the original argument.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Chester0275, Chester2575 at Sep 16, 2005 23:09 PM
Shmity 72: "defemation of character or source is welcome. But come on..." I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Even if it turns out that Prof. Chomsky is a greedy capitalist, how does that disprove any of the arguements he has put forth? P.S. I studied Computer Science at UNT and Prof. Chomsky is mentioned in several CSCI texts from natural language processing to systems programming.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Jasons888, Shmity72 at Sep 16, 2005 22:23 PM
defemation of character or source is welcome. But come on... I studied some linguistics at the UW in the early 90's. Do you know who wrote my textbook 'government and binding theory'? whether Chomsky charges 14,000 dollars a 'plate' or not is irrelevant to any attempt at character assassination. You're going to have to do better than that... sorry so sloppy sincerely, JDS

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Chester0275, Chester2575 at Sep 13, 2005 23:28 PM
To "the-abyss": What you are writing about is how much Prof. Chomsky charges for his time. I would ask you once again, do you think Chomsky should do everything for free or do you presume to know what Prof. Chomsky should charge for his time? I would also point out a key difference in the way you discredit Prof. Chomsky's opinion and the approach I am taking to discredit yours. I am actually addressing what you have written and coming up with a counter argument. What you seem to do to discredit Prof. Chomsky's opinion is attack him on a completely unrelated topic as if that had anything to do with what he said. This is one of the most elementary logical fallacies. In this case you are committing the logical fallacy of changing the subject, specifically by discrediting the person making the argument rather than discrediting the argument itself. The three subparts of this particular logical fallacy are as follows: (1) The person's character is attacked (2) The person's circumstances are noted (3) The person does not practice what is preached You have committed #3 in your argument and arguably number 1 and 2 as well. As your entire argument on every post that I have read of yours (not that I've read them all because I'm sure I have not) seems to be based on this logical fallacy they are irrelevant. BTW, this post contains a logical fallacy...can anyone pick it out?

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Mjc7373, Mcorbin at Sep 12, 2005 06:29 AM
Also Abyss, I know he speaks for a lot of non-profit groups that can barley scratch up traveling expenses, asking only for donations at the door to listeners, and he does this constantly. In other words he charges on a sliding scale. When you do that the wealthier clients must make up for all the freebies. If Chomsky charges universities that can afford it $12,000 I still don't see how this could make him so rich, it's below typical celebrity income, and doesn't even scratch the surface of a typical sports hero's salary. It's more like upper-middle class. More to the point would be HOW he makes whatever amount he does, which you already pointed out: from books, lectures, and teaching. No exploitation involved, no ethics compromised. Not an easy task in today's world.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Kodlum, Kraster at Sep 12, 2005 01:26 AM
Mr. Abyss, So what if Chomsky gets 12,000 for a speech. I don't care. It does not make his observations or essays less correct. I'd sure prefer to see 12,000 go to chomsky than 200 billion on a groundless and pointless war. Why does it bother you so much? Chomsky does not claim to be a panacea to all the world's ills. Like it or not he is seen by many as giving weight to the criticisms of the Bush administration. You seem like a person in posession of a good intellect so why waste time attacking one of the few renowned critics of the US administration by adopting the Bill O'Reilly-esque tactic of attacking the messenger and not addressing the message?

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Sep 11, 2005 22:47 PM
Here's a forgotten author and journalist, J.R. Hatfield, who killed himself, aged 43, after the right-wing media destroyed his career. In his suicide note, he listed "alcohol, financial problems and the controversy over Fortunate Son [a book about George W. Bush's early life] as his reasons for killing himself." http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/011705.html (scroll down to "Burned Books") Let's keep Chomsky's "hard life" in perspective, shall we. Chomsky also earns money from articles he writes for newspapers, such as "The Guardian", a British newspaper, as well as receiving royalties from the hundreds of thousands of books he's sold. Then there are his DVDs, audio CDs, cassettes tapes, etc., etc. In fact, if you want to donate some money, maybe Robert Parry's Consortiumnews.com's Web site is worth supporting. He wants to help build an alternative media infrastructure to take on the right-wing lies. At least, if you give to "Consortium News", you know where your money is going.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Sep 11, 2005 21:56 PM
Here's what I found out about Cornel West. A snapshot of Google's cache, because you have to be a subscriber to view the full article: http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:bl5BfQ63fFYJ:chronicle.com/weekly/v48/i43/43a01001.htm+"cornel+west"+"speaking+fee"&hl=en "Cornel West was not originally on the program. Conference organizers said that they had initially tried to invite Mr. West, a philosopher whose writing on race has made him a nationally known figure, but that they could not afford his standard $15,000 speaking fee plus first-class travel expenses." - Last, but not least, here's a page listing various people's speaking fees, so that you can put Chomsky's fee in perspective: http://goodworksfirst.org/careerfair/career19.html And here's a taster of what you can expect to pay: BARRY COMMONER - scientist and environmentalist who advocates renewable energies. His books include The Closing Circle, The Poverty of Power, and most recently, Making Peace with the Planet. Regular speaking fee is $5,000, negotiable. JESSE JACKSON - president and founder of the National Rainbow Coalition; progressive politician. Regular speaking fee ranges $10-20,000, negotiable. CESAR CHAVEZ - president of United Farm Workers of America, which works to end exploitation of farm workers. Speaking fee is $5,000 plus expenses for two people. - The ugly truth is, many "socialists" are out for themselves. Chomsky doesn't seem to be any different.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Sep 11, 2005 21:26 PM
I stated that Chomsky charges at least $12,000 (yes, that's twelve thousand dollars!) per speech or per hour/session of speaking. Graeme called me a "LIAR!" I came to this fake blog supporting Chomsky, but even when I was being nice, Graeme was picking up sticks and beating me with them. If I made a post that digressed, in any way, from Chomsky's main topic, Graeme scolded me. - But back to Chomsky's speaking fees. There is no question that Chomsky charges a fee; the only question is how much. Extracted from an article in "The Washington Times": "With college commencement season in full swing, leftist propagandists are making the rounds of our nation's universities — as they do all year 'round. "Care to hear Noam Chomsky skewer America's soulless, capitalist wealth and privilege? It will set you back $12,000. ... And Chomsky's leftist academics-in-arms have similarly immodest asking prices." http://washtimes.com/culture/20040607-011222-2830r.htm In the article, Cornel West is mentioned. I did an Internet search, and found that the claim in "The Washington Times" that West charges $15,000 per speaking engagement seems to be correct; therefore, until I have evidence to the contrary, I must assume Chomsky charges a minimum of $12,000 to speak. Cornel West has been known to charge $35,000 per hour. Hence, it's possible Chomsky has charged a lot more than $12,000 on some occasions.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Chester0275, Chester2575 at Sep 10, 2005 20:40 PM
I have been a lurker on this site for some time but this is the first time I've ever posted. I've noticed a pattern in the posts made by "the-abyss" where he berates Prof. Chomsky for the amount of money he makes selling his opinion. I would just like to ask that person which of Prof. Chomsky's speeches you would like to hear but do not wish to pay for? I have heard all of Prof. Chomsky's speeches that I'm aware of and never paid one penny. Here is a link for you where you can download Chomsky's speeches in audio, video or transcript form for free: http://www.chomsky.info/ The link was very easy to find, simply Google "Noam Chomsky" and it is the first link on the list. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding your point. I'm sure Prof. Chomsky does charge something to travel all around the world and give speeches; however, the important part of those speeches, the content, is freely available to download and enjoy. If in the future their is a speech on a certain topic given by Prof. Chomsky that you wish to hear feel free to email me at chester0275@hotmail.com and I'll see if I can't find it for you. As I said, I really am having problems seeing your point. Do you think Chomsky should do everything for free or do you presume to know what Prof. Chomsky should charge for his time?

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Blindhomer692000, Blindhomer at Sep 10, 2005 02:18 AM
For Mr. Chomsky I have infinite respect and gratitude.Is to consider him a true paragon of dissidence an overstatement?Hiis name ,and fame,generate credibility,and an audience,for his(my,our?)views.And I am also appreciative that opinions of dissention can still be heard over,under,or through,the all powerful corporate media monsters.To the masses(yes,they're asses),the notion of the U.S. being an imperialist-terrorist state,or un(anti)democratic causes rage,mockery,dismissal,and confusion.But mostly,people are completely oblivious,totally numb to reality. That America's increasingly blatant decent into totalitarianism has been accelerated by the current administration is an inconceivable idea to the majority,yet a given to a minority,illustrates both the effectiveness of the elite's policy's of marginilization,but also, the conviction of the opposition.My challenge has been popularizing the excellent books and docs. while they're still available.Along with Chomsk's Manufacturing Consent,and Distorted Morality,I love The Corporation,In Plane Site,and Orwell Spins In His Grave.There is no lack of substantial dissenting views and opinions....but for how long?The Internet is a haven for freedom of speech,but it too requieres vigilent defence from the capacious appetite of those who seek to control all. So please,keep up the fight.Pass a book or a file of Noam's to five,or more,people.Please.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Michael, Bobbo at Sep 09, 2005 03:39 AM
Second, there is no real model of a more successful planned economy for the elites to point to and say - wow, we should do some of this. Third, there is no real organized pressure from below to redistribute wealth, nor any credible rival state espousing an internationalist workers agenda to scare the living bejeezus out of the capitalist class. We have to remember that Fascism arose from a genuine crisis of confidence in laissez-faire capitalism among the elite classes of Western Europe and America. That crisis of confidence was resolved after WW2, and the lessons learned from that crisis have given us things like the Pentagon system. Indeed, I think it's accurate to say that the U.S. borrowed heavily from the fascist example in the shaping of the post-war world. Until another crisis in the present system arises, another overtly fascist episode is unlikely. But that doesn't mean that western democracy in general, and the U.S. in particular, aren't plagued by a system of political and economic managemnent that has terrible consequences for all of us. BTW, you can find the link to Orwell's article here: http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/site/work/essays/lionunicorn.html)

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Michael, Bobbo at Sep 09, 2005 03:02 AM
Unfortunately, I couldn't get any more than a preview of the Foreign Affairs article (I didn't register), so I'm not sure if a definition of Fascism was ever discussed. The term itself refers essentially to a one-party control of the economy and society, while retaining the existing class strucure of capitalism. The moneyed classes, as long as they are obedient, are turned into managers and administrators of a highly centralized state industrial machine. As Orwell summarized, "Fascism, at any rate the German version, is a form of capitalism that borrows from Socialism just such features as will make it efficient for war purposes." Now, it is unlikely that we will see anything quite like that in the United States, for a number of reasons. First, the U.S. advanced industrial state works on the basis that the capital-holding class GIVES the orders, and the state TAKES the orders, which then promply sells them to the public through professional agents (the politicians). Different sectors of the capitalist class vie for influence and can have somewhat antagonistic goals; the end result is this peculiar monstrosity badly misnamed "democracy". Under the present conditions, the economic elites in control of the U.S. would loathe to give up the freedom to pursue self-interest at the expense of even their own narrow class interest, because they don't feel threatened enough.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Karr, Stephen at Sep 08, 2005 10:18 AM
the-abyss, your irrelevant non-sequiturs in support of your anti-Chomsky agenda are becoming tiresome. I don't worship the ground he walks on, but do have great respect for him as an intellectual. All he does is present facts and contruct arguments. You can agree or disagree with his assertions. Even he says he wants people to think for themselves and arrive at their own conclusions.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Sep 08, 2005 00:50 AM
Therefore, from now on, if anyone wants me to go on a march, they will have to hand over some cash. And if a charity needs help, I expect a wage. Like Chomsky, I also have to survive. Kerching! Is that the sound of money I hear? -- As Chomsky is such a genius, no one should participate in any more marches, or, indeed, in any form of protest. After all, Chomsky has done it all himself in the past, and there's no reason to doubt he won't solve our present problems. A recap: Universal suffrage - A gift to all of us, from Chomsky. Racial segregation - Abolished thanks to Chomsky's hard work. Resolution of the Cuban crisis - Chomsky thinking provided a way out of the impasse. Equal rights for blacks - Chomsky's brilliance shone through yet again; no longer could we regard black people as inferior to whites. Global warming - A phenomenon that would have remained buried under a mound of data, had Chomsky not worked day and night, for three whole years, trying to understand bizarre changes in the weather system. The list just goes on and on. A lifetime of achievements by the greatest man that ever lived. Thank you, Chomsky! Oh, I nearly forgot. Here's a stash of money. Enjoy your life! You deserve to.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Sep 08, 2005 00:10 AM
So many (supposedly left-wing individuals) defend Chomsky charging a speaking fee, by claiming he needs to survive like the rest of us. These individuals deliberately fail to disclose how much Chomsky charges per speech, and do not tell people that Chomsky is/was a tenured professor of linguistics at MIT, not a beggar. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the ganda. I also need to survive. I recently went on two "anti-war" marchers, not because I wanted to show off my pacifist credentials, but because I wanted to protest against the brutality of the U.S. occupation in Iraq, the obscene lies of Bush and Blair, and the takeover of Iraq's economy for the benefit of U.S. corporations, part and parcel of globalization. It cost me over £5 (that's over 9 dollars!) to get up to London by train (only a 25 minute ride). That's not a lot of money to someone like Chomsky on his salary and with his savings, but to me, it is. No one reimbursed me my money. That was money I could have used for food, or for a trip to the launderette. In the past, I have also given my time for free to help street kids. As well as getting myself into debt. But, now, given the left's new way of thinking, which is barely distinguishable from the right's, why should I bother? Indeed, why should anyone! We all have to survive, don't we? We all need money. And the more, the merrier, eh? Greed is good. So let's all get rich. Yeaaaaaah, WHY NOT! Screw others before they screw you.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Sep 07, 2005 03:08 AM
I read some more Eco essays and I love this: "They remind us that the Arabs of Spain nurtured geography, astronomy, mathematics or medicine when the Christian world was way, way back. All very true, yet these are no arguments, for in so reasoning we should say that the noble Tuscan municipality of Vinci is superior to New York's, for in Vinci Leonardo was being born while in Manhattan four Indians were sitting on the dirt awaiting for over one-hundred-fifty years for the Dutch to show up and talk them out of the entire peninsula for 24 bucks. But no sir, today the center of the world is in New York and not in Vinci. And no offense. Things change"

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Rfcompte, Rfcompte at Sep 07, 2005 02:10 AM
What is fascism? Isn't a fascist statement what G.W. Bush said after spt 11th: "You are with us or you are against us"??? That's not freedom, not even respect...

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Sep 07, 2005 02:01 AM
I made an error in a previous post. I said George Galloway, a British left-wing MP, known in America for lambasting congressional senators (but only because his reputation was on the line), was mulling an offer to speak at American universities for $5,000 a time. Wrong! The fee is £5,000 per speech, which is about $9,200 at the current exchange rate. http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=818&id=561552005 http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=818&id=560212005 Hence, it shouldn't be surprising if Chomsky gets not $12,000 per speech, but $12,000 per hour. I'm being conservative, quoting $12,000 per speech. From the "The Scotsman": "The American lecture circuit has become a lucrative path for many leading politicians, although Galloway will have to settle for fees somewhat less than the £130,000 a time given to Lady Thatcher. "Former US president Bill Clinton is believed to charge £160,000 for each of his speeches. "In Britain, top earners include former Conservative party leader William Hague and television presenter Angus Deayton, both of whom can command £25,000 for an after-dinner speech. "Former [British] MP Michael Portillo, however, is available for around £5,000 for speeches at lunches and dinners. "...prime minister's wife, Cherie Blair, were asking for £30,000 a time for her to give lectures in America..." -- No wonder Chom$ky calls America the greatest country in the world. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Sep 07, 2005 01:23 AM
What also never ceases to amaze me is how Chomsky is allowed to co-opt the work of others. The so-called "Lancet Study" is a good example. Les Roberts headed the team that carried out the survey. But as soon as Chomsky cited the 100,000 figure, "everyone" either lept at Chomsky's throat, trying to throttle his words, or ran to his defense. Rewind everyone!! Chomsky didn't carry out the study. Sod what Chomsky says. Read what Les Roberts has to say. Go to http://www.thelancet.com, register (it's free!), and read the report for yourself. Les Roberts - either in "The Lancet" or someplace else (I forget exactly where) - also describes his trip to Iraq, which makes interesting reading. Another point: in "Manufacturing Consent", DVD version, Chomsky says he "wishes the world would go away". What exactly does Chomsky mean? It seems he's only referring to people who've watched the documentary and contacted him. He was perfectly happy giving paid speeches and arguing the toss with university students. However, as soon as a group of film makers came his way, and started exposing him to the wider public, Chomsky had second thoughts. Seems Chomsky doesn't have that much faith in the public, after all. $$$

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By The-abyss, The-abyss at Sep 06, 2005 23:35 PM
Chomsky, unlike the rest of us, doesn't have to do anything. Chomsky is special. He does the talking and takes the money, we do the changing. "Do as I say, not as I do!" Imagine millions of people giving speeches, claiming that they need to charge a fee to survive. How will that bring about change? It won't! Chomsky is taking you all for a ride, and you're too blind to see it. His most devoted fans call him "professor". Why? If a fireman spoke about these things, would you call him fireman Chomsky? This is meant to be about us, the public, working together - as equals! - to improve our lot. Evidently, Chomsky does not consider himself a member of the public. He thinks he's above the rest of us. Hence why he has a blog that he doesn't visit. Hence why he charges $12,000 or more to give speeches (until I have evidence to the contrary, that's the figure I will stick with). If you actually listen to what Chomsky is saying, he's telling you this: you little people are suffering, and here is why..., but it's up to you to do something about it. Don't expect me, or any other member of the elite, to try to bring about change, because it's not going to happen, that's not our job, we don't get our hands dirty, we enjoy our lives. That's the reward for being top dog in a capitalist society.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Organum, Baby at Sep 06, 2005 01:51 AM
Facism to come. Unevietably we will see more of this. When the poles melt and the sibirean tundra releases its co2. When asias internal markets mature, and the monocultures of our agriculture replace dynamic biotopes. Wether this article is a product of US or Chinese facism matters less. Ragnarok awaits and the Christian , Communst and Moslem believers are only to happy to give a helping hand. Dont drive ! http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-8/31055.html

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Carboiii, 1americafirst at Sep 06, 2005 00:12 AM
I agree with everything written in this article. Furthermore I have seen the same climate of fear and confusion that was stirred up by Hitler and his cronies in pre-Nazi Germany. It just saddens me that so many wander in darkness as the Bush administration uses the same tactics to further their own agenda. I just hope that enough Americans awaken to what's really going on before it becomes to late. For those of use non-sheep, we can clearly see the writing on the wall. The decline of America is not coming, it has already begun.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Visser, Rvisser at Sep 05, 2005 15:50 PM
Umberto Eco, from the article referenced above: "Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It would be so much easier for us if there appeared on the world scene somebody saying,"I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the Blackshirts to parade again in the Italian squares." Life is not that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and to point our finger at any of its new instances--everyday, in every part of the world." I would add to this: "in every part of our own individual hearts and minds." I think it was Simone Weil who said that each one of us has a bit of Nazi in us. As I understand her comment, it would suggest that each one of us has a bit of Fascism in us as well. The vigilance, the 'uncovering' and 'finger pointing,' must necessarily include ourselves.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By K, Mr at Sep 05, 2005 09:11 AM
we've all seen the movie 'escape from new york' now it's escape from America! God save the hominid from corporate statist tyranny! Corporate rule has no democratic roots! Go tell your boss what to do! He's better. Brainwashed into submission to the point of zombie stupid. God save New Orleans as population control is well underway in the new world order. Wait for the eye scanners and id cards. Your all commodities. The lines have been drawn. Time for a general strike to take back the country in the name of the minutemen who started this unjustly rebellion. If the people of 'then' were here today they'd be burning the whitehouse and begging for international aid against Bushism. Here's my new movie 'civil war 2: rich vs. poor'.

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By Karr, Stephen at Sep 05, 2005 08:10 AM
The assertion that Chomsky only propagandises and doesn't know what he is talking about is laughable. Everything he says is on the public record, and in fact, he is merely paraphrasing someone else when referring to fascism. For more on the elements of fascism, check this out. http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=britt_23_2

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Mjc7373, Mcorbin at Sep 05, 2005 00:55 AM
Chomsky has no understanding of fascism; and two, and Comsky will say anything for the sake of propaganda and maligning those he dislikes. ".but it might be better and more productive in a discussion if more were offered, something more substantive and defensible." Unfounded character assassinations are all that one can give when one has no interest in looking at the issues raised, and references to supporting facts need not be looked at when the goal is to criticize the messenger of unwanted knowlege and question motives. You may not like Chomsky's motives, but who cares? Such unsubstantiated claims ad zero support to your assertions and gives the impression that you have nothing to say on the topic being discussed.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Neptunert, Maninblack at Sep 05, 2005 00:40 AM
There ia a very real possibility that we could descend into fascism in this country. And I'm sure that it would all be done in the name of "protecting us from terrorism"and will be welcomed by Fox News. There is a very deep undercurrent of this in our society. According to John Taylor Gatto, you can go back to the begining of forced shooling and find refences to a need to use schools not to educate but to train the next generation to be docile workers for the coming industries.. In fact the fasces (strange symbols of bundled twigs around a sword)appear on an early textbook "the Life and Work of a Citizen." And let's not forget Gen. Smedley Butler and the attempt to thwarted attempt to depose Roosevelt in the same era that that book was published. It is very sad and sobering that some of our felllow citizens, (the same ones rationalizing how Bush was not to blame for the FEMA budget cuts right now) that would welcome fascism in this country.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Visser, Rvisser at Sep 04, 2005 23:35 PM
My last comment was directed to Yakov, sorry for any confusion. Thanks, sk34, for the Eco article.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Visser, Rvisser at Sep 04, 2005 23:14 PM
Chomsky provides evidence for his view on this matter, referring the curious reader to an article in a respected journal (Foreign Affairs), an article providing substantive support for his view. On the other hand, you provide no evidence for your view. It is a mere gesture. Which is o.k. - but it is a bit like throwing tomatoes at someone on stage. Perhaps that is all you wanted to do...and that is fine...but it might be better and more productive in a discussion if more were offered, something more substantive and defensible. Can you say why you think he "has NO understanding of fascism?" Do you really mean "none whatsoever?" What, in your mind, is fascism? And, how does Chomsky misperceive it - completely?

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Bok, Yakov at Sep 04, 2005 21:13 PM
For Chomsky to imply that Bush is a fascist shows two things: one, Chomsky has no understanding of fascism; and two, and Comsky will say anything for the sake of propaganda and maligning those he dislikes.

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Visser, Rvisser at Sep 04, 2005 18:44 PM
Just to clarify: the comment under the reference I gave above (First Comment) was taken directly from the Foreign Affairs site. My apologies for not clarifying that. Here is the link: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20050501facomment84303/fritz-stern/reflection-lessons-from-german-history.html

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Re: The Bush Administration and Fascism

By Visser, Rvisser at Sep 04, 2005 16:19 PM
Here is the reference: Foreign Affairs May/June 2005 Vol 84, Number 3 Reflection: Lessons from German History Fritz Stern German history teaches that malice and simplicity have their appeal, that force impresses, and that nothing in the public realm is inevitable. It also proves that democratic reconstruction is possible, even on initially uncongenial ground.

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