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The Economic Crisis and the Left




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In the last part of our interview about the global economic crisis with economist Robin Hahnel, the discussion moves onto how the left has and should react to it. Part 1 can be found here and part 2 can be found here.

 

Are there any countries that responded to the crisis in a way that you find admirable?

 

Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay – the ALBA initiative in Latin America—has been a very positive response. The ALBA initiative preceded the crisis but, the countries behind ALBA have also been the countries who have responded to a crisis that was not of their making in the most constructive way.

 

While Europe was no better than the US at providing the fiscal stimulus needed, some European countries have dealt with their financial industries in a much better way than the Obama Administration has. Instead of ineffective bailouts without limits or conditions, many European governments have engaged in takeovers and restructuring, and forced banks to take necessary haircuts. Continental Europe has also come out strongly for meaningful international financial regulatory reform while the US and UK have done everything possible to thwart these regulatory efforts.

 

China, of course, has done a brilliant job of minimizing the impact of the crisis on its own economy and consequently maximizing its rise in economic stature relative to others. Just as China was largely immune to the East Asian crisis because its financial system was not integrated into the international financial system in 1997, its domestic credit system was still relatively insulated in 2008. The big challenge for China was how to replace the loss of export sales that the depression in Europe and the US generated. Resisting predictable pressure to allow the value of its currency to rise was part of the answer. But more importantly the Chinese government reacted quickly and forcefully with strong measures to stimulate internal demand with considerable success. In sum: no internal financial crisis, sticking to a beggar-thy-neighbor exchange rate policy, and a relatively effective domestic stimulus has served Chinese capitalism well. However, I would call this “smart” rather than “admirable.”

 

Are such crises inherent to capitalist economies?

 

No.

 

I’m tempted to leave my answer at that for maximum shock value because I think this is an issue where the Left needs a slap in the face.  Collectively the Left likes to see itself as teaching great wisdom on this subject. In truth, the Left has often spewed a great deal of nonsense about capitalist crises that undermines our credibility with people who actually know something about this subject. However, the Left being the way it is, I hasten to clarify what I mean in what will surely be a pointless attempt to avoid misinterpretation.

 

The idea that capitalism contains internal contradictions which act as seeds for its own destruction is simply wrong and needs to be discarded once and for all. Many twentieth century progressives sustained themselves emotionally with false beliefs that capitalism’s dynamism and technological creativity would prove to be its undoing as well as its strength. In particular, two Marxist crisis theories influenced many on the Left during much of the twentieth century.

 

Marx hypothesized that when individual capitalists substitute machinery for labor to lower production costs they witlessly produce a long-run tendency for the rate of profit to fall because in the final analysis capitalist profits derive from exploiting labor. For over a hundred years Marxist economists predicted that such a crisis would eventually appear once all the counteracting tendencies played themselves out, and many anti-capitalist activists wondered if every crisis that came along was “the big one.” But thanks to work begun by Nobuo Okishio, modern political economists now know better. To make a long story short: labor-saving, capital-using technical change does nothing, in-and-of itself, to depress the rate of profit in capitalism and thereby generate a crisis of capitalism.

 

Marx also predicted crises due to under consumption as competition drives individual capitalists to reduce the wages of their employees and increase their accumulation out of profits, thereby increasing overall production at a pace he believed would eventually outstrip aggregate consumption demand. The question is if there is an inherent tendency within capitalism to generate an ever widening gap between all that can be produced and the demand necessary to purchase it, so the pressure to find new ways to buoy demand to ward off stagnation escalates as capitalism develops. To put it simply and bluntly, the answer is “no.” Macroeconomic models of growth and distribution pioneered by Don Harris, Stephen Marglin, and Lance Taylor have moved us considerably beyond under consumptionist crisis literature that was less rigorous and more conjectural. In its totality the new literature demonstrates conclusively that while aggregate demand should be carefully managed, and problems will arise if it is not, at a theoretical level, the relationship between aggregate demand and supply is no more, nor less problematic in the long run than it is in the short run. But if these “doomed to destruction by internal contradictions” theories were wrong, what is a more accurate understanding of capitalist development?

 

What is true about capitalism is that despite impressive technological advances that should dramatically improve our lives, free market capitalism will not satisfy today’s need for basic economic security for most of the third world and a growing underclass in the advanced economies. What is true is that despite the fact that scientists are capable of devising technologies that would allow us to protect the natural environment, unrestrained global capitalism will unleash unthinkable environmental catastrophes within the next hundred years. What is true is that the new era of global Robber Baron capitalism in which financial capital reigns virtually unconstrained will continue to cause financial crises that destroy the livelihoods of billions who live in developing economies, and increase the economic insecurity of the majority who live in developed economies. What is true about the present course of global capitalism is that it will doom most to struggle harder than their parents to meet their economic needs, while a tiny, privileged minority accumulate fabulous wealth at an accelerating rate.

 

What is also true is that not even when capitalism is tamed by a full panoply of social democratic reforms can it satisfy the desires for self-managed, meaningful work that an increasingly educated populace will demand in the century ahead, nor our longings for economic justice, dignity, and community. And while reforms within capitalism can slow the pace of environmental destruction, they will never make capitalism environmentally sustainable.

 

Nor, unfortunately, does capitalism nurture the seeds of its own replacement. It does not generate a homogeneous working class whose economic activities lead them to see the advantages of seizing and managing the means of production themselves. Instead capitalism pits workers against one another and teaches those it disenfranchises that they are incapable of making good decisions and should be thankful that their fortunes rest on the decisions of their betters. Capitalism does not teach people to embrace human values and develop cooperative patterns of behavior. Instead capitalism fosters commercial values and punishes socially responsible behavior. In other words, capitalism provides less help and creates more obstacles for those seeking to replace it with a system of equitable cooperation than our twentieth century forebears expected, and leaves more hard swimming against the current than they dared to believe.

 

What we are engaged in is an epic struggle between the economics of competition and greed and the economics of equitable cooperation. During the second half of the second millennium the political sphere of social life witnessed a struggle between tyranny and freedom—followed by a continuing struggle between elite political rule versus popular, democratic rule. I believe there has been a similar struggle going on in the economic sphere of social life. Besides the rapid technological changes that distinguish the capitalist era, people have struggled over how to organize divisions of labor that improve the efficacy of our economic sacrifices. On the one side we have seen institutions grow that seek to organize our increasingly specialized economic endeavors based on a system of competition and greed, along with ideologies that preach the necessity and advantages of doing so. On the other side we have seen resistance to this epic trend. We have seen struggles of different kinds and sizes against the ravages of competition and greed and the miseries, inequities, wastefulness, and inefficiencies it creates. We have also seen intellectual critiques of its destructive dynamics. And we have seen theories developed that insist there is another possibility—that the human species is not so socially feeble that we cannot organize a productive division of labor in a system of equitable cooperation.

 

If the notion that radical activists should seek to “heighten internal contradictions” to hasten the demise of capitalism was misconceived, what role should progressive activists play? I suggest we see ourselves as part of a struggle that is centuries old—a tug of war between those who would further refine and consolidate an economic system based on fear and greed that has been spreading its sway for almost five centuries, and those who oppose its spread, and fight to build a more equitable system of economic cooperation. Naturally those who pull for the economics of competition and greed are usually those who enjoy more of the benefits and less of the burdens it distributes, while those pulling for equitable cooperation are often victims of the system of competition and greed. Not surprisingly over the past four hundred years the rope has sometimes moved slowly in one direction and sometimes in the other, sometimes lurched quickly, and sometimes remained stuck for a time. Not surprisingly some strategies and tactics for pulling the rope have proven more critical and decisive than others. And we really should not be surprised to discover that every once in awhile when we thought we had achieved a significant lurch in the direction of equitable cooperation, we later discovered that we had grossly deceived ourselves.

 

The crisis has been such a blow to the image of neoliberal capitalism—how is it that the left remains so much on the defensive?

 

When our opponents do better it can be more difficult for us to make headway. However, if one is not organized and prepared historic opportunities can be squandered. I cannot speak for the Left elsewhere, but so far the Left here in the US has done a miserable job of taking advantage of the greatest historic opportunity we have had in many generations. It is increasingly difficult to blame circumstances or others for our inability to broaden our support and increase our influence, and increasingly more obvious that much of the fault lies within.

 

I cannot do justice to the subject of what we must do to improve in a short space. I now live in the Pacific Northwest which is arguably the most politically “advanced” region of the country. There are more progressive organizations, initiatives, campaigns, and activists here per capita than anywhere else in the country. Civil society and popular consciousness is more advanced here than elsewhere. And all of this is good. In the winter of 2008-2009 many of us here sensed that people were truly shocked by the severity of the economic crisis, no longer trusted traditional sources of information, and were thirsty for sensible explanations for what had gone wrong, who they should blame and hold accountable, and what kind of responses they should support. However, what impressed me most after twelve months of working full-time to help organize a conference on the economic and environmental crises here in the Northwest was how much we failed to achieve. The EcoNvergence was held in Portland Oregon in October 2009 and was considered a great success. Over four days, all told, over 5000 people attended 100 panels, a dozen plenaries, a half dozen cultural events, and a brilliant keynote address by Noam Chomsky. But what most struck me was how weak, disorganized, and non-strategic we often were, and how difficult it proved to be for us to move beyond preaching to the choir.

 

You describe yourself as a market abolitionist? What’s wrong with a mixed economy on the Scandinavian model?

 

A mixed economy along the lines of the Scandinavian model—whose hey-day was the mid 1970s—is a far, far better kind of capitalism than the free market, neoliberal capitalism that became increasingly dominant until it reached a crisis in 2008 from which it has yet to recover. What I call social democratic capitalism is much more stable, equitable, and efficient than its free market cousin. Personally, I would be more than pleased to live in a Scandinavian version of capitalism. And the world would be a far, far better place if all national economies were thoroughly social democratic, and if international economic relations were conducted along social democratic lines.

 

But Scandinavian social democratic capitalism is still capitalism. It is a capitalism where markets have been tamed somewhat, and where countervailing forces to corporate power have been erected. But it is still an economy driven primarily by market forces and dominated primarily by private corporations. It is still an economy which operates principally according to the logic of competition and greed rather than logic of equitable cooperation. It is still an economy where those fighting for more economic democracy, more economic justice, and more effective environmental protection must swim against the current. It is still an economy where we are always in danger of being swept downstream if our stroke weakens – as the Scandinavian economies themselves were in the 1980s and 1990s when “third wave” forces within their social democratic parties reacted to neoliberal global trends by dismantling much of the progress those countries had made over the previous fifty years. It is an economy where the doctors have settled for palliatives in lieu of a cure.

 

If social democratic capitalism were the best the human species is capable of, then it would have to be good enough. However, we are capable of far better. We are fully capable of organizing our own economic activities under rules and procedures that support and promote participatory economic democracy, real economic justice, and help us become wise stewards of the natural environment. I favor an economic alternative known as participatory economics and have been writing for more than thirty years about why I think it is both superior to social democratic capitalism and quite feasible. Millions of Bolivarian Revolutionaries in Venezuela and other ALBA countries strongly prefer social democratic to neoliberal capitalism, but like me, they are firmly convinced they can do far better and have no intention of stopping at social democratic reforms. They are right.

 

 

Please visit NLP at http://www.newleftproject.org

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Contradictions and Baker

By Cooper, Curtis at Mar 21, 2010 17:06 PM

This part of the interview, and the ensuing comments, are interesting to read in conjunction with recent articles by Dean Baker that have been circulated on this site, the Counterpunch site, and the Guardian of London newspaper.  Baker hammers away at the point that the current financial crisis in the US stems from the domestic housing bubble, which should have been obvious to, among others, competent economists.  (Baker himself wrote about the bubble for years before it finally burst.)  If Alan Greenspan, Robert Rubin, and other leaders had recognized the bubble and taken simple, obvious steps to address it, the domestic economy wouldn't be in such a pickle, with millions of people suffering unemployment.  In other words, this crisis was largely avoidable with simple measures, and didn't stem from massive contradictions inherent in capitalism.

Moving in a different direction, here is the conclusion of one of Baker's recent pieces:

"Progressives undermine their cause when they frame their agenda as one that imposes government constraints on the market. Market outcomes, as opposed to the dictates of government bureaucrats, have substantial appeal, especially in the United States. And the market is an incredibly valuable tool. We should be looking to restructure the market in ways that produce outcomes that are more desirable. Focusing on government intervention to override the market is both bad politics and bad policy."

I really like Robin's concluding remarks on doing a lot better than soft capitalism.  But in line with Baker, it's worth keeping in mind that around the world, governments already play large roles in market economies which blur categories like capitalism and socialism.  And I'm not sure that Baker's "restructure the market in ways that produce outcomes that are more desirable" is a good rallying cry.

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Re: Contradictions and Baker

By Hahnel, Robin at Jul 15, 2010 01:45 AM

Dean Baker and I are long time friends, and we agree to a great extent on the evils of neoliberal, capitalism. We also agree that the notion that we have ever had truly free market capitalism in the US is a myth because government has long intervened strongly to promote corporate interests, so we should never allow our political opponents to pretend that what they favor is truly free market capitalism. We also agree on the desirability of a host of policies that make "social democratic capitalism" more stable, efficient, and fair than deregulated capitalism where social safety nets have been dismantled and unions have been disempowered.

So where do Dean and I disagree? 

Is there a desirable alternative, beyond thoroughly tamed, social democratic capitalism? Dean is a sceptical agnostic on that subject, I believe, perhaps shading more toward sceptical and less toward agnostic over the years. I have long been and remain more convinced than ever that there is a desirable alterative that is sytematically different from capitalism, is not a market system at all, and that as it becomes more and more apparent that even "humanized" capitalism cannot provide us with full economic justice and democracy, and remains a threat to the natural environment, more and more people can be convinced that we need to abandon the economics of competition and greed -- and the arduous efforts it requires of us to apply band aides whenever it hemorages -- and instead "move on" to implement an entirely different economic system that fosters far more healthy human potentials.

Since I, like Dean, accept the fact that until we can replace the market system we need to tame that system as best we can, and that the exercise of taming markets with only partial success is part of the education process needed to convince people to move on, we can almost always agree on practical programatic issues. Dean doubts that he would ever want to replace markets altogether. I would replace them entirely in a heart beat if I could, and look forward to the day when a majority have become so sick of the market system that they agree with me so we can finally engage one another in the economics of equitable cooperation.

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689242

responding to Marxist "crisis theories"

By D'Arcy, Steve at Mar 18, 2010 02:20 AM

I'm not going to say anything in defense of the falling rate of profit 'tendential law,' which I had thought (perhaps wrongly) was debunked in the early decades of the 20th century.

But I do think that marxist economic theory isn't fairly treated here. (Of course, I understand that this is a short article, and that there's only so much detail that one can appropriately include in a discussion like this. But still...)

For one thing, I don't think I have ever heard (in my lifetime) a marxist economist argue that wage stagnation generates overcapacity or stagnant growth. Do you have an example to offer? I'm not sure that Marx ever says that, either, but it may be in there somewhere. What 'underconsumptionists' usually claim is not that depressed wages generate overcapacity, but that oligopolistic competition (e.g., Coke v. Pepsi) changes the dynamics of supply and demand in certain ways which generate overcapacity or overaccumulation of surplus. Wages hardly enter into it at all. Maybe this line of analysis is plausible; maybe it's not. But it's not a claim about how depressed wage levels drag down the economy by reducing aggregate demand. Moreover, as far as I know, underconsumptionists only argue that oligopolistic (corporate) capitalism tends toward stagnant rates of growth, so that stagnation is its normal state rather than a deviation from the norm that needs a special, conjunctural explanation (like policy failures or 'external shocks'). As far as I know, there is today no such thing as an underconsumptionist theory of 'collapse,' although many decades ago (before WWI) Rosa Luxemburg offered such a (now discredited) theory.

Moreover, I think that other (non-underconsumptionist) Marxist crisis theories today, which DO claim that capitalism suffers from "internal contradictions," are -- again -- not theories of collapse. Take two of the most prominent examples: David McNally and Robert Brenner. McNally goes so far as to claim that it is inconceivable in principle that capitalism could 'collapse' in an irreversible way. Not sure about Brenner. But what they're both doing is analyzing the 'business cycle,' by demonstrating the destabilizing features of capitalist development at a certain stage. This is just what crisis theories are in modern marxist theory. The falling rate of profit isn't really the issue, even for non-underconsumptionists.

So, what I'm saying is that it would better to take up some of the key voices in current marxist crisis theory (like Foster, Brenner, McNally), and respond to them, rather than to respond to unpublished manuscripts by Marx. They think they are saying something important when they offer this kind of 'crisis-theoretical' analysis, because they believe that how we understand the dynamics of capitalist stagnation and/or instability is important for orienting our movements in order to resist effectively. For instance: is it true (as McNally claims) that the California model of how to respond to fiscal crisis by ruthless attacks on the 'social wage' (welfare state etc.) represents a kind of blueprint or 'vanguard' for attacks that we should expect everywhere else in the years ahead? Supposedly, crisis theory contributes to answering questions like that. The real questions, then, are not questions about some "falling rate of profit" theories which, though he didn't publish them in his lifetime, were found in Marx's manuscripts and published posthumously. Rather, the questions are about whether Marxist crisis theories (or analyses) offered by prominent Marxist theorists like Brenner and Foster are plausible, and if so, whether this kind of research can make a helpful contribution to our movements, e.g., labour movement, student movement, etc.

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Re: responding to Marxist "crisis theories"

By Hahnel, Robin at Mar 19, 2010 21:12 PM

 

Yes. I am saying that capitalism has no “internal contradictions” --  it is not “self-contradictory” in any of the ways that Marxist crisis theorists have thought or still think it is today. People write whole books on these subjects. Of course no Marxist who still believes in one of Marx’s crisis theories agrees with my conclusion. Nor is a comment posted on  ZNet’s web site going to be sufficient to present an argument that will convince anyone who believes in one of Marx’s crisis theories to abandon his or her belief. So, really, all I am saying here is that as a radical economist who is thoroughly anti-capitalist,  and has studied and taught radical economy including Marxist economics and Marxist crisis theory in PhD programs where radical political economy is a featured part of the curriculum for over thirty years, I think these theories hold no water.
 
To be clear: When Marxists use the phrase “internal contradictions” they do not mean simply that there are “conflicts” in capitalism – such as the conflict between employer and employee over wage rates and effort levels, or the conflict between lenders and borrowers over interest rates, or the conflict between landlords and tenants over rents. They mean that there is something about the dynamics of capitalism that is contradictory in the sense that it will lead the system to be no longer able to function. Contradiction means self-contradictory as used by Marxist crisis theorists. That is what the tendency for the rate of profit to fall theory is about. That is what under consumption crisis theory is about.
 
Marx, who started out as a Hegelian philosopher, used Hegelian language to describe what he clearly thought were dynamics inherent to the evolution of capitalist economies that would eventually bring those economies to a crisis. Marx thought capitalism was self-contradictory and he proposed two ways in which he thought this was so.
 
Marx believed that the substitution of more and more “dead labor” for “living labor” would eventually lead the rate of profit to fall because according to Marx’s labor theory of value the source of profits was the exploitation of “living labor” and “dead labor” could not be exploited.  In other words, as capitalists substituted more and more non-labor inputs for labor – a process generally referred to as automation – Marx prophesized they would eventually kill the goose that was laying their golden eggs. At some point Marx concluded people were no longer going to be willing to play the role of capitalists when the rate of profit became to low to be worth their while, and we would have a “tendency for the rate of profit to fall” crisis of capitalism.
 
But Marx was wrong about where profits come from. The flaw – and it is a logical flaw – was in his labor theory of value. Modern political economy has moved on to correct this flaw and we now have a logically sound theory of value known as Sraffian price theory. This theory confirms all of the important conclusions from Marx’s labor theory of value regarding how wage rates and profit rates are negatively related, and how relative prices are determined not only be technologies and preferences but also by the distribution of income between labor and capital. All except one: Sraffian theory does not falsely predict that the rate of profit will fall as capitalists adopt new labor-saving, capital-using technologies.
 
Marx also offered a second hypothesis for how capitalism would prove self-contradictory. The more successful capitalists were at keeping wages from rising as much as labor productivity rose, the more difficult it would become for them to find buyers with sufficient income to purchase all that was produced. Marx predicted this “realization crisis” or “under consumption crisis” would manifest itself in the form of capitalists being unwillingness to keep hiring workers and buying intermediate inputs to produce commodities they could not sell. (And yes, under consumption crisis theory in all presentations, does begin with an argument to the effect that wages will be repressed in some way or form and prevented from rising as rapidly as labor productivity, whether it is the Rosa Luxemburg version, the Monthly Review version, or any other version of under consumption crisis theory.)
 
But Marx was also wrong in his speculations about the long-run relationship between income distribution and growth. Modern political economy theories of distribution and growth pioneered by Don Harris (Standord), Steve Marglin (Harvard), and Lance Taylor (New School) which explore these relationships in rigorous models rather than through conjecture have since demonstrated that there is no inherent reason that demand cannot keep pace with supply in the long-run.
 
With regard to both of his crisis theories Marx did speculate about “counter acting tendencies” which he thought could delay, or postpone the crises he believed internal contradictions were leading to. This allowed Marxists attracted to these theories to do two things. (1) For a long time devotees of each theory of crisis – and they are quite different theories of where a crisis will come from – explained the fact that their favorite crisis had not yet manifested itself by arguing that some counteracting tendency had delayed matters -- once again. For example, the Monthly Review school of “Monopoly Capitalism” under consumption, argued that government spending on defense and space, along with advertising and rising consumer debt ratios were postponing the big under consumption crisis in the US economy. But these were viewed only as postponements, as stagnation for lack of sufficient aggregate demand would eventually prove unavoidable. (2) The second thing it allowed devotees to do was to soften their interpretation of what an internal contradiction meant. It allowed people to distance themselves from “deterministic” or “vulgar” interpretations of Marxist crisis theories, and interpret their favorite problematic dynamic as just that, not a “system-self-contradiction” but a nagging problem that will keep rearing its ugly head. In this interpretation it was always possible that system managers would be able to find a solution, although according to even these softer Marxists the dynamic would rear its ugly head at some point again. (The “Social Structures of Accumulation” school of Marxism is the most subtle Marxist school which argues along these lines, and there are many who self-identify with this school who write insightful commentary about different eras of capitalism.)
 
My own belief is it is best to just admit when an idea did not pan out. Marx had plenty of brilliant insights to his credit. He remains to this day the most insightful social critic of the capitalist era -- which is a sad commentary on all of us who have been anti-capitalists during the twentieth and now twenty-first centuries. Nor was Marx an idiot to have believed his crisis theories. In his era, and given the state of the field of economics when he lived, they were both interesting and perfectly reasonable conjectural hypotheses. Moreover, coming from a Hegelian background he was prone to think in terms of self-contradictory systems in any case. But I think in 2010 we now know enough to know better. We have better theories that say these two theories of crisis were not logically sound. (Many others have suggested that empirical evidence has also failed to support them – although I do not want to get into that debate!) And we have better methodologies for thinking about social systems in general than Hegelian dialectics. In any case, I think Marx's crisis theories do not provide wisdom but increasingly stand in the way of greater wisdom. In my view there is no need to couch insights about the internal logic of different kinds of capitalist growth models from the SSA school in mystical tones of “internal contradictions” when this adds nothing to the argument. And in my view, when we talk about crises we should simply stick to pointing out exactly what is creating exactly what problem as they occur, including straightforward explanations of how problems often accerbate one another.
 
Finally, to be clear about financial crisis: I believe the theory that free market finance is an accident waiting to happen – which Hyman Minsky explained best– is rock solid. Unregulated finance will become more and more highly leveraged because doing so is more profitable. And because financial firms are playing mostly with other people’s money, the problems of moral hazard are quite serious. As a result, an unregulated financial industry will in all likelihood eventually become so fragile that some unexpected negative event can easily generate a crisis of “deleveraging” which will, in turn, negatively affect the real economy. theory does confirm all this. And historical evidence does confirm all this.
 
But while some Marxist economists also write well on this subject, this is NOT what Marxist crisis theory is about -- or at least the Marxist crisis theory I am criticizing. Nor is financial crisis something that is inevitable and unavoidable – prudent financial regulation can prevent it -- although I am tired of waiting and prefer moving on to participatory eco-socialism.

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689242

Re: Re: responding to Marxist "crisis theories"

By D'Arcy, Steve at Mar 20, 2010 05:56 AM

Well, clearly we're talking past each other, for the most part.

I take it that you're conceding that no notable marxist economist during my lifetime (41 years) has claimed that wage stagnation even causes stagnant rates of GDP growth, much less 'collapse' of the capitalist system. In turn, I will concede your point that Marx sometimes (at least in his unpublished manuscripts) did seem to advance an underconsumptionist, maybe even a wage-driven underconsumptionist theory of capitalist crisis. I also concede, as I did the first time, that the falling rate of profit theory has been discredited, although I want to repeat my suggestion that marx's reasoning on this was debunked several decades ago, at least by the 1930s, and probably much sooner (Sweezy, in The Theory of Capitalist Development [1942], treats the debunking as a done deal, citing Ladislaus von Bortkiewicz from 1907).

However, I'm not convinced that Marx ever promoted a 'collapse' theory of capitalism of any kind. In part, it would not have occured to him to do so, since he was consistent in advocating a very different, and incompatible account of capitalism's demise. Unlike the theorists of the Second International (e.g., Bernstein, Kautsky, Luxemburg), who tended to see the end of capitalism as an event, Marx saw the end of capitalism as an activity, namely, the "self-emancipation of the working class." He expected working people to "burst asunder" the "chains" of capitalism, once their organizational capacities were up to the task, spurred on by the social conflicts generated by the many ways in which capitalism was increasingly coming to be a "fetter" on human development. This view has little in common with the 'collapse' theories that were advocated by some (Luxemburg) and opposed by others (Bernstein) in later generations (from the 1890s through the 1930s).

In the hands of Marx, and even more so in the hands of the mainstream of recent (say, 1960s-the present) marxist economists, crisis theory is not about the 'collapse' or 'breakdown' of capitalism. It is about "turbulence" (Brenner), "stagnation" (Foster, who defines stagnation as "an underlying trend of slow growth"), "instability" (McNally"), or "volatility" (Panitch).

But I think -- and this is only a guess -- that the reason you overlook this mainstream of the marxist approach to crisis theory may be that you have an understanding of "theory" that equates it (unless I'm mistaken) with mathematical modelling. The fact is, the use of mathematical modelling to understand contemporary capitalism and its "crisis tendencies" or "contradictions" is not a mainstream approach among marxist economists. This is because they would regard it as unacceptably speculative (because of the gap between mathematical models and historical processes). You, on the contrary, regard the refusal to rely on mathematical "proofs" (to use your term) as itself speculative. So, there's a radical gulf separating these two incompatible approaches to understanding contemporary capitalism. Is that a fair account of what separates you from people like Brenner and the others I mention? None of them would ever dream of drawing conclusions about contemporary capitalism from a mathematical proof, since they would regard this as radically unhistorical and incompatible with the whole thrust of 'critical social science' (which, by virtue of historical groundedness, cannot rely crucial on mathematical models). But I sense that you regard the mathematization of a finding as, not more speculative, but less speculative. To me, your view sounds quite wrong-headed; but to you, my view will sound quite wrong-headed.

We also disagree about Hegel, although it would be ridiculous for us to dwell on it in this forum. Hegel famously wrote: "The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through." This is his notion of development through contradiction: it is a matter of forms of existence (or knowledge) that tend to unleash dynamics that they can't process in their own terms, thereby necessitating developmental shifts, yielding reorganizations which he regarded as typically "higher" on a developmental scale. It is not a matter of "collapse" or "breakdown." It is a matter of instability and reorganization in forms that enable systems to cope with problems that could not have been coped with in the earlier stage. Thus, it was, in Hegelian terms, the "contradictions" of Keynesian "Fordism" that generated a crisis to which neo-liberalism and financialization were "solutions." No collapse in this picture, just a contradiction-driven developmental process, to be analyzed as a historical phenomenon, shot through with conflict.

Our differences about Hegel will also lead us to different conclusions about the labour theory of value. I regard it (in the manner of Isaak Illich Rubin) as an attempt to demystify commodity-mediated relations by showing them to be, ultimately, interpersonal power relations ("relations between persons" rather than "relations between things," in Marx's terms). In that sense, Marx offers not a competing theory of political economy, alongside those of Smith, Say, and Ricardo, but a "critique of political economy," which is no more a type of "political economy" than Ludwig Feuerbach's "critique of Christianity" is itself a type of Christianity. The point of the labour theory of value, so-called, is to analyze capitalism as a system of exploitation of some persons by other persons. It isn't a theory of price determination, but a "critical theory," an anti-"fetishism" theory. This is one reason why most "crisis theorists" in contemporary marxism do not make much use of the notion of "value," but instead speak about dollars and cents ("price," in Marx's jargon).

Why go into all this? And why here, of all places? Because I find that a lot of people tend to adopt a very prematurely dismissive stance toward Marx and marxism. And I think it weakens the Left for non-marxists to make a habit of not reading Marx or the work of contemporary marxists, many of whom have very sophisticated and insightful things to say about contemporary capitalism. There are many anarchists, for example, who really believe that they can learn more about society by reading Bakunin than by reading Marx. And, frankly, that's a crazy thing to believe. But when people caricature or mischaracterize what marxist theory has to offer, they encourage that sort of self-defeating behavior. Frankly, I see no reason why people shouldn't turn to Marxists first (or second...) if they want help analyzing what's going on in contemporary capitalism, notably, capitalism since 1973 (the end of the 'post-war boom'). Marxism is not some outmoded, discredited intellectual tradition with nothing useful to say about "post-Fordist" capitalism; quite the reverse. And if anyone thinks that there exists a mathematical proof (showing that one can't conclude from the labour theory of value that capitalism will collapse because of a falling rate of profit) which in any way undermines the claim of contemporary marxist economics to our attention, then they are really missing the boat entirely.

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Uyxawln0wf4pq3awuhgx7q85vcgf7yc90300

Internal Contradictions

By Kane, John at Mar 17, 2010 08:13 AM

You write:  Marx hypothesized that when individual capitalists substitute machinery for labor to lower production costs they witlessly produce a long-run tendency for the rate of profit to fall because in the final analysis capitalist profits derive from exploiting labor. For over a hundred years Marxist economists predicted that such a crisis would eventually appear once all the counteracting tendencies played themselves out, and many anti-capitalist activists wondered if every crisis that came along was “the big one.” But thanks to work begun by Nobuo Okishio, modern political economists now know better.

 As a long-time fan of your work, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the work of Andrew Kliman, who does indeed assert that the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is real.  Specifically, in his book, "Reclaiming Marx's Capital," he dedicates a substantial amount of time toward this point and toward refuting the work of Okishio, whom you cite. 

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Re: Internal Contradictions

By Hahnel, Robin at Mar 17, 2010 21:39 PM

I have not read Andrew Kliman's book, Reclaiming Marx's Capital, so I cannot comment on what he says.

Warning: I'm not trying to be snide in what follows, simply honest.

I have no intentions of reading the book and here is why. From 1967 to 2003 I read everything written on this subject. I was interested and wanted to make sure that nobody had discovered some flaw in the essential message contained in the Okishio theorem. Even when my own interest flagged as every attempt Ito resucitate Marx's "tendency for the rate of profit to fall" theory turned out to hold absolutely no water despite authors' fervent beliefs to the contrary, I had to keep up to date because I taught a PhD class in advanced political economy theory and students understandably wanted to review all this literature for themselves. I no longer teach the class, and at some point one has to prioritize what one reads and studies. When nothing useful has come from a literature that is now hundreds of years old, I personally cannot justify "keeping up with it" at the expense of reading and following literatures that bear juicy fruit.

So I cannot tell you that Kilman has not finally figured out a way to save what has literally become a Holy Grail for some Marxists. But I can tell you that I am willing to bet my house that he has not.

BTW 1: The Okishio theorem is a mathematical theorem and does not contain any logical flaws. One can object to its assumptions as being inappropriate or not the same as Marx's assumptions. Or one can object to how someone interprets the theorem. But the theorem is logically sound. My PhD students learned how to prove it every year for 25 years.

BTW 2: I also don't read literature by creationists, so I can't swear they fail to make sound arguments. Nor do I read literature by climate denialists. In this case I do check from time to time to see if the overwhelming concensus of the world scientific community that climate change is real and stems from human economic activiity has weakened. If it ever does, I may have to devote time to a literature I don't have to follow right now.

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Uyxawln0wf4pq3awuhgx7q85vcgf7yc90300

Re: Re: Internal Contradictions

By Kane, John at Dec 04, 2010 06:21 AM

I do not even for a moment  pretend to know  the answer to the falling-rate-of-profit question.  But Mr. Hahnel and Mr. Kliman are two professors of economics whom I have great respect for, and at the personal request of Mr. Kliman, I am posting the following response that he has prepared. I hope that it might keep what seems to be a fairly contentious, but nonetheless very necessary, debate alive.

Here is Mr. Kliman's response: 

"Okishio's theorem has since been disproved by proponents of what is now known as the temporal single-system interpretation of Marx's value theory (see Kliman 2007, esp. chap. 7). Yet the myth still prevails that Okishio showed that that the rate of profit cannot possibly fall for the reasons Marx stated remains prevalent among Marxist and Sraffian economists. The myth affects the debate over the causes of the current crisis, by making it less than respectable to even consider Marx's law as a potential determinant of the crisis. 
 
For instance, Robin Hahnel (2010a, emphases in original), a radical economist, recently wrote:
 
The idea that capitalism contains internal contradictions which act as seeds for its own destruction is simply wrong and needs to be discarded once and for all. . 
 
Marx hypothesized that when individual capitalists substitute machinery for labor to lower production costs they witlessly produce along-run tendency for the rate of profit to fall because in the final analysis capitalist profits derive from exploiting labor. . But thanks to work begun by Nobuo Okishio, modern political economists now know better. To make a long story short: labor-saving, capital-using technical change does nothing, in-and-of itself, to depress the rate of profit in capitalism and thereby generate a crisis of capitalism.
 
And in a subsequent comment on this article, he added,

When nothing useful has come from a literature that is now hundreds of years old, I personally cannot justify "keeping up with it" at the expense of reading and following literatures that bear juicy fruit.
So I cannot tell you that Kilman [sic] has not finally figured out a way to save what has literally become a Holy Grail for some Marxists. But I can tell you that I am willing to bet my house that he has not.
BTW 1: The Okishio theorem is a mathematical theorem and does not contain any logical flaws. One can object to its assumptions as being inappropriate or not the same as Marx's assumptions. Or one can object to how someone interprets the theorem. But the theorem is logically sound. My PhD students learned how to prove it every year for 25 years.
BTW 2: I also don't read literature by creationists, so I can't swear they fail to make sound arguments. Nor do I read literature by climate denialists. In this case I do check from time to time to see if the overwhelming concensus [sic] of the world scientific community that climate change is real and stems from human economic activiity [sic] has weakened. [Hahnel 2010b]
Hahnel equivocates. Now that the disproofs of Okishio's theorem have become more widely known, attempts to defend it by means of equivocal arguments have become common. Yet equivocation--using the same term in different senses within the same argument--is a logical error; it renders the argument invalid. In the present case, Hahnel appealed to what we may call OT1, a theorem about real-world capitalism that supposedly shows that "labor-saving, capital-using technical change does nothing, in-and-of itself, to depress the rate of profit in capitalism." But after this claim was questioned, he appealed to what we may call OT2, a purely mathematical theorem. "The Okishio theorem is a mathematical theorem [that] does not contain any logical flaws" and that is therefore a true theorem--even if its assumptions are "inappropriate" (at variance with real-world capitalism) and even if "someone" wrongly interprets this purely mathematical theorem as a demonstration that labor-saving, capital-using technical change does nothing, in-and-of itself, to depress the rate of profit in capitalism. 
 
Once we have distinguished OT1 from OT2, it becomes clear that "the" Okishio theorem can do no damage to the LTFRP or to the idea that capitalism contains internal contradictions. OT1, the theorem about capitalism, does no damage because it is false. Okishio failed to prove that it is impossible for the equilibrium rate of profit to fall under the conditions he assumed, because he failed to prove that the mathematical object that cannot fall is the same thing as the equilibrium rate of profit of real-world capitalism or the LTFRP. (It is not the same thing as either of them.) OT2, the disinterested exercise in applied mathematics, does no damage because it is not a theorem on capitalism or Marx's law. Q.E.D. [1]


 

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Stephen_oct_2010

Strategy

By Roblin, Stephen at Mar 16, 2010 22:45 PM

 

 

 

In describing the EcoNvergence conferences, you say, "what most struck me was how weak, disorganized, and non-strategic we often were, and how difficult it proved to be for us to move beyond preaching to the choir." Could you elaborate. More specifically, what do you think Left activists and scholars could do to be more strategic? Clearly its just a matter of hard-work and organizing. But do you think there is a dearth of (good) scholarly work on Left strategy with respect to current movements and their initiatives? Or is not a matter of scholarship? 

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Re: Strategy

By Hahnel, Robin at Mar 17, 2010 03:42 AM

I do think it is mostly a matter of hard-work organizing. Although I think what is most needed is some rethinking about how we do that hard work and organizing -- more on this in a minute.

I do NOT think that academic scholarship has much to contribute in this regard. Academics always bring a lot of academic baggage to any project, That is just the nature of the beast and to expect anything different is naive. In some areas it is worth paying this price because the subject matter is complicated enough so academic expertise is valuable. For example: Mainstream finance theory has ignored the potential downside of financial intermediation entirely while singing only praises for the potential upside. This means mainstream financial economics is literally useless in helping people see the warning signs of financial dangers,  thinking through the causes, and coming up with effective remedies for our present crisis. Rank amateurs who weave ill-informed and incompetent theories about money and banks have poured into this vacuum. They are literally quacks who make elementary errors that students who take one class in money and banking learn better than. But they are in great demand at on alternataive radio and the internt. This is really too bad, because in this case there is a much better alternative within academia. There are academic specialists in finance who have worked as ignored dissidents outside the mainstream for decades who follow in the footsteps of a brilliant expert on the subject named Hyman Minsky , Minsky and academic economists who follow in his footsteps  do understand money, banks, and finance very, very well. If Left radio, internet, and fora would only invite these people to explain the causes and cures of the financial crisis left activists would learn valuable lessons which they could explain to others instead of filling their heads with ideas like "money without debt" and ridding the world of the evils of "fractional reserve banking." But with regard to how to activists in social movements can organize more effectively I think academics are very unlikely to provide important insights and advice.

We have to move beyond preaching to the choir because it allows us to operate in our comfort zones and makes us feel good. The economic crisis shocked many people and rendered them momentarily oopen to hearing new ideas from new sources. It provided an opportunity for the Left to open lines of communication with people living in white working class areas of Portland and rural Oregon who have been uninterested in anything "we" have to say for decades.  Instead we have continued to talk to ourselves and made no serious efforts to reach new constituencies. More people risked a rude "no thanks" banging on doors in these neighborhoods to ask people to vote for Obama in the Democratic Primary and general election than people risked banging on the same doors to invite them to an event  and hand them a short piece of literature about the economic crisis about which they were more likely to be interested.

EcoNvergence was an excellent opportunity for anti-capitalist, climate justice, and peace activists to preach to other progressive movements about their own issues. There were over 60 such organizations who were co-sponsors of the event and Noam Chomsky was a big attractor. All they had to do was advertise the conference -- really even their own workshops -- aggressively to their own memberships and emails lists. If they had all done this they would have all had the chance to present their ideas to progressive minded people from other movements who would never attend an event they organized themselves. In other words, with minimal energy and effort they could have guaranteed themselves audiences of people they don't get to preach to even when they put 5 times as much energy into organizing an event of their own. Did they do it? Not really. There were plenty of people who attended EcoNvergence. But that is because Portland and the NW has a large progressive and activist base. But there were very few who were not very much "the usual suspects." Had participating organizations done minimal outreach to their own memberships attendance would have been 2 or 3 times greater.

Why did so many progressive groups and organizations behave in this self-defeating way? That is a tough one. (1) Habit. It's hard to work differently than you have been, even if the situation and circumstances have changed and there is much more potential. (2) Overwork. Every one of the 60 plus organizations is understaffed, underfunded, and overworked. Anything beyond just keeping an organization intact and operating can be diffiiclut, so new initiatives go straight to the back burner no matter how much potential they may have. (Note: We asked for NO financial contribution whatsoever from any organization beyond what they volunteered, and gave full rights to participate and mold the event independent of financial contribution,) (3) "Won't build it if Ican't control the agenda": EcoNvergence was a "big tent" event. While all the organizations had ample opportunity to sponsor panels and speakers and control the content of their own panels, nobody could prevent other speakers from saying what they wanted to or control the content of panels organized by other groups. Leaders of some organizations are very reluctant to bring members to an event where they do not control the content. (4) "The truth is "they" make us uncomfortable so we enjoy ourselves more when "they" stay away." There is such a strong cultural divide between radical progressives and mainstream Americana that we may be as uncomfortable around them as they are around us. As much as we pride ourselves on our open mindedness it may be one of those "necessary illusions.". When all was said and done we put on a show -- a great show the lasted over four days -- that many of "them" would have felt uncomfortable and unwelcome at. 

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Stephen_oct_2010

Re: Re: Strategy

By Roblin, Stephen at Mar 17, 2010 18:49 PM

The problems of preaching to the choir and holding meetings and events with the "usual suspects" only in attendance is prevalent in the Baltimore activist scene. However, there have been efforts to bridge the divides in recent years.  

What are your thoughts on reaching out to the "other side of the aisle"? As a matter of personal experience, I've spoken to some activists in the Baltimore area about attending Tea Party rallies to capitalize on the anti-corporate sentiments present among a portion of its base through talking with people and passing out literature from a perspective they have little exposure to -- for example, a "What Glen Beck Doesn't Tell You" document highlighting how our current debt as a percentage of GDP is lower than what it was coming out of WWII, the need for fiscal policy as a way out of the recession, and so on. There's been little interest among those I've spoken to. Perhaps not the best idea, but I believe that its important to reach out to everyone.

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582867

Re: Re: Strategy

By Small, Brian at Mar 20, 2010 06:15 AM

 It sounds like the EcoNvergence event would have felt more successfull if it looked more like the union event in the Mojave described by Mike Davis  "...Imagine a picnic jointly organized by the IWW, the American Legion and the Hells Angels..." 

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