The Trouble with Leninism
Mark Evans is a founding member of Project for a Participatory Society UK, the UK chapter of the International Organisation for a Participatory Society, a growing movement of people committed to developing vision and strategy devoted to winning a new society based on participation, solidarity, equity, diversity and self-management. Here he discusses his critique of Leninism with NLP’s Alex Doherty and outlines elements of an alternative approach for the radical left. We will publish a reply from a British Leninist in the coming days.
Leninism continues to be an influential strand of political thought on the radical left in the UK. You have been highly critical of this ideology, but before we get into your views on Leninism could you first outline for us what Leninism is exactly. What are its key concepts and features?
Before getting into the specifics of Leninism it might be worth me highlighting some more general criticism of Marxism that will hopefully help readers better understand my position which is rooted in, and informed by, participatory vision and strategy.
A key aspect of Marxism is the philosophical position of historical materialism which places particular emphasis on economic activity as a driving force for social dynamics and explanation for historical continuity and change. To my mind this is not only an inaccurate picture of reality but also one that actively undermines solidarity between the various constituents that make up the left. By prioritising class exploitation and oppression within the economic sphere over other forms of oppression in other social spheres - such as sexism and racism - historical materialism establishes an organisational framework that generates unnecessary and destructive tensions within the movement.
But in addition to unfairly and unwisely elevating classism above other non-economic forms of oppression I would also argue that Marxists get economics seriously wrong and in ways that actively alienate the working class from the anti-capitalist movement. I will talk more about this later (see my answer to question 3).
As for Leninism, central to this doctrine is the conviction that, for a revolution to be successful, we need a revolutionary party. This strategic conviction emerges out of a number of interrelated insights regarding the reality of capitalism and the nature of the class system. These include -
> The rejection of reformism
> The uneven development of class consciousness within the working class
Leninists argue that capitalists will never allow their power to be eroded by a reformist party in power. It therefore follows, according to Leninists, that it is necessary to organise for the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism. Leninists also argue that mass spontaneous revolt against capitalism is inadequate to win a revolution. Hence, for Leninists, what is needed is for the most advanced and best organised revolutionaries (the vanguard) to lead the mass revolt to successful revolution.
Finally, to defend the revolution against counter-revolutionary forces, the vanguard party must be organised along democratic centralists lines.
This seems to capture the essence of Leninism - as I understand it.
Lenin is a rather divisive figure on the left - for those in the Leninist/Trostkyist tradition he is a hero, a leader of the first workers revolution, and a man whose legacy was effectively destroyed by Stalin. On the other hand anarchists and some Marxists have argued that Lenin created the institutional architecture that made it all too easy for a Stalin to arise. How do you see the historical Lenin?
Well, first I don’t think that there is any doubt that Lenin was a serious and committed revolutionary. That, I think, is beyond question. What I do think is questionable is the nature of the revolution that Lenin had in mind. Here, it seems to me, there are two quite different Lenins.
For example, we find the Lenin who said “all power to the soviets” and the Lenin who said “”Large scale machine industry which is the central productive source and foundation of socialism calls for absolute and strict unity of will ... How can strict unity of will be ensured? By thousands subordinating their will to the will of one.”
Supporters of Lenin - like Tony Cliff and his followers - tend to argue that these quotes need to be considered in their historical context and that it was events like the civil war that forced the Bolshevik leadership to resort to authoritarian measures. However, this argument is undermined by Lenin’s right-hand man, Trotsky, when he stated -
“I consider that if the Civil War had not plundered our economic organs of all that was strongest, most independent, most endowed with initiative, we should undoubtedly have entered the path of one-man-management much sooner and much less painfully.”
That said, I’m sure that (like Lenin) Trotsky also said some very nice things about workers control etc.
So we have a situation where Lenin (and Trotsky) was saying very different, and often contradictory, things at different times - some libertarian and others authoritarian in tone. How do we work out which to take seriously? Did Leninism lead to Stalinism?
Whilst this is an interesting question, for me as an organiser, it is kind of irrelevant. Rather than focusing on individuals, like Lenin, what is much more important is to undertake an institutional analysis of the revolutionary organisation advocated by Lenin and implemented by the Bolshevik Party.
One of the key features of Leninist parties is the organising principle of democratic centralism. What is democratic centralism? Why do you oppose it?
As I said as part of my answer to question one I think Marxism gets economics seriously wrong and in a way that alienates the working class from the anti-capitalist movement. To understand why I think this requires an understanding of the possible sources of class division.
Typically Marxists see capitalism as a two class system. There is the capitalist class and there is the working class. The distinction between the two class emerges as a result of their different relationships to property ownership. Basically the capitalists own the economy whilst the workers rent themselves out - a situation that inevitably generates different and opposing class interests.
Whilst I agree with this I also think that there is at least one other source of class division within capitalist economics that Marxists tend to be blind to. This additional sources of class conflict emerges out of the division of labour which under capitalism is elitist in nature. The hierarchical division of labour results from the uneven allocation of tasks that go to make-up jobs. This unevenness generates the hierarchy and allows for a minority to monopolise the empowering tasks within the economy and with it create a class of professional managers - sometimes referred to as the coordinator class.
So for advocates of participatory economics (parecon) like myself capitalism is a three class economic system resulting from both property / ownership relations and the elitist division of labour / monopoly of empowering tasks. Therefore as an organiser for a classless economic system it is necessary for me to not only be anti-capitalist but also anti-coordinator class.
But what does this have to do with democratic centralism?
Democratic centralism is a specific way to structure and run an organisation. The democratic aspect has to do with the feature that all members are free to debate and have a say in decisions. The centralism aspect refers to the outcome of elections after which all members are expected to uphold the majority position to ensure unity of action.
(Before moving on to my main point I think it is probably worth stopping here and considering what kind of society is likely to result from a revolutionary organisation run along such lines. If revolutionary organisations are to be considered seeds of the future society - as I think they should - then to my mind it seems almost inevitable that Leninism will lead to some form of mono-cultural totalitarianism with little, if any, consideration for minority opinion and rights.)
However, another often overlooked feature of Leninist organisations is the hierarchical division of labour which is maintain within democratic centralism. By maintaining an elitist division of labour Leninist organisations elevate the coordinator class to positions of dominance and, in so doing, generate a strong internal dynamic towards elitist centralisation and away from participatory democracy. It is, I would argue, as a result of this internal dynamic and class dominance that much of the working class become alienated from the anti-capitalist movement.
You see for me one aspect of the revolution for a classless economy will need to be a transition from an elitist division of labour to an egalitarian division of labour (what parecon advocates call balanced job complexes) and yet, to my knowledge, Leninists say nothing about this.
From this analysis I think we can conclude that the debate, over what would have happened if Trotsky had succeeded Lenin instead of Stalin, is irrelevant and something of a distraction. What is much more important, it seems to me, is that we develop coordinator class consciousness within the anti-capitalist movement.
Leninist parties (the Socialist Workers Party being the most obvious example) have clearly made very important contributions to left struggles in the UK over the course of several decades - how do you view the role of SWP and other parties such as The Socialist Party (formerly the Militant tendency)?
I have mixed feelings.
On the one hand Leninist parties clearly make a valuable contribution to left organising in the UK. For example they have played an important role in helping organise and mobilise the general public in opposition to government policy relating to both domestic and foreign affairs. Obvious examples include the massive anti-war march of 2003 and the anti-cuts demonstration earlier this year.
On the other hand I do think that their contribution is significantly limited by the inherent problems of Marxism / Leninism highlighted above. But more to the point I also feel that these problems actually hold our efforts back from developing into a popular and participatory movement and so in that sense are very damaging.
From this point of view Marxists / Leninists are in an impossible position. To help build the much needed mass movement would require that we transcend historical materialism with a superior theory and replace democratic centralism with a form of organisation that facilitates meaningful and fair participation by its membership. But to do this would mean abandoning key aspects of Marxism / Leninism which in the end, it seems to me, would make any continued association with or identification to the ideology meaningless.
The only real solution, I think, is to establish a new international revolutionary organisation that addresses these problems and with it escapes the limitations of Marxism / Leninism.
Why do you think that it is so important for the left to outline visions of the kind of society it would like to see?
If we want to build a popular revolutionary movement we need to recruit. To recruit we need to overcome a major obstacle - the uneven development of consciousness within the general public. How might we do this?
As we have already seen one way is for revolutionaries to organise themselves into a vanguard party and then to agitate the general public towards revolution. During a revolutionary situation (think general strike) the vanguard party captures state power and takes on a leading role to ensure that the revolution is successful in destroying capitalism. This, of course, is the Leninist approach to overcoming uneven consciousness within the working class.
Now this problem of uneven consciousness cannot be ignored - so hats-off to Leninists for at least attempting an answer, as most revolutionaries simply fail to do so as far as I can tell. But as I have tried to show above the Leninist approach to revolution does not lead us to classlessness. On the contrary, if the working class bring down capitalism but have no idea of how to run the economy along classless lines then the vanguard will establish what has traditionally been call socialism but what advocates of parecon think is more accurately described as coordinatorism - an economic system controlled by a class of professional managers. The important point here is that, without vision for a classless economy, the working class can find themselves doing the dirty work for the coordinator class who may well be anti-capitalist whilst at the same time having no intentions of losing their position of privilege within the economy.
An alternative approach to the problem of uneven consciousness, that avoids the authoritarian vanguardist tendencies of Leninism, is the development and popularisation of alternative social systems that institutionalise left values. This allows us to adopt what we might think of as a libertarian vanguardist approach to organising which, I would argue, has a number of advantages.
One advantage of developing vision is that it arms the left with a serious reply to the right-wing claim “there is no alternative”. Presenting well thought-out alternative models of how society could function is a great way to challenge such dogma and, in-so-doing, free people from the ideological control that can result from it.
Another important advantage is that it allows the revolutionary movement to draw on its long-term objectives to inform its short term goals and organisational form. The revolutionary movement should, in my opinion, be the future society in embryonic form. But, for common sense reasons, this can only be realised if the movement knows what their desired future society looks like - its basic institutions and primary functions.
Utilising vision to inform short-term goals also has a number of important attributes. For example, by drawing on our vision to inform our initial demands we ensure that any reforms that we win move us in the right direction. This helps to create and maintain an important continuity between our long term objectives and our day-to-day organising. Vision orientated organising will also tend to generate a much more constructive attitude to activism. Rather than focusing on the negative / anti of revolution a focus on vision generates a positive / pro character to organising.
My feeling and hope is that all of these benefits to vision orientated organising will help address the unevenness in consciousness whilst generating support for a growing pro-participatory movement.
The anti-cuts movement has naturally spawned a variety of organisational forms since its inception and there is plenty of debate about how best to organise the resistance. What is your assessment of these debates and how to move forward from here?
What is important to understand here, in my opinion, is the significance of the public services. To my mind there are two aspects to this.
On the one hand the public services represent an alternative to corporate led globalisation. This means that they have to be destroyed because they undermine the validity of Thatcher’s TINA doctrine - There Is No Alternative. For the corporate led globalisation project to succeed all existing alternatives must be crushed and the idea of running the economy for the people (and not for profit) be wiped from our minds. If people can see an alternative - and one that they can influence to some extent via the democratic process - then this might generate some opposition to corporate globalisation.
That is one important aspect of the public services. Another important aspect is the potential for the public services to be run by the general public for the common good. This potential is, in my opinion, the real threat that the public services represent to elites. The egalitarian idea that the public services could be democratically run by the people for the people could quite easily take-hold within this context. In fact, to my mind, the public services are the natural place for a participatory economy to emerge. Destroy the public services and this threat is removed.
So when we are assessing how well the anti-cuts movement is doing we might want to keep these two aspect in mind.
With regards to the first aspect I feel that we have made a promising start. The March 26th National demonstration, called by the TUC, was well attended and helped to expose the Lib-Con myth that the cuts are an economic necessary as opposed to a political decision. The impression I am getting is that there is a lot of organising now taking place within the union movement, as well as within newly formed anti-cuts community groups, to build on this success and to organise a powerful movement to stop the attacks on public services and bring down the Lib-Con government.
But it could be argued that the best way to defend public services would be to push for greater democratic control over them by workers and consumers. This approach links the two aspects - not only would we be defending public services against the attacks but also be pushing to make them stronger and less vulnerable to future attacks. This is my favoured approach. But to my knowledge there is not much, or at least not enough of this taking place within the anti-cuts movement. So with regards to the second aspect highlighted above I’m not sure that we are doing so well.
But it is still early days and I suspect that things will get very interesting in the coming months.



Historical Materialism
By N, Andrew at Aug 09, 2011 16:44 PM
“A key aspect of Marxism is the philosophical position of historical materialism which places particular emphasis on economic activity as a driving force for social dynamics and explanation for historical continuity and change. To my mind this is not only an inaccurate picture of reality but also one that actively undermines solidarity between the various constituents that make up the left. By prioritising class exploitation and oppression within the economic sphere over other forms of oppression in other social spheres - such as sexism and racism - historical materialism establishes an organisational framework that generates unnecessary and destructive tensions within the movement.”
Firstly, a critique of historical materialism cannot be done in a paragraph – but I would be really interested in genuine attempt to criticise it. It is in itself a debate (way beyond Leninism) so I think it is dangerous to bring this in to your debate on Lenin as for anyone wishing to debate you will start here and rightly want to write pages on this superficial criticism (and that’s before anyone even gets to Lenin). Of course this could be part of your debating style to throw sand in their eyes before they even get to the start! :-D
However, I have comments on this paragraph.
When you say Marxists primacy towards economics is an inaccurate picture of reality – why? Is this a critique of a materialist philosophy? Are you alternatively arguing for philosophical idealism? I’m really interested where the basis of this statement comes from philosophically.
Historical materialism is pretty complex for me (and considering there various fights among marxist intellectuals, extremely debatable) but also liberating (as far as I choose the version of historical materialism I wish to accept) philosophical insight. Historical materialism, which is both partisan and purposeful, is as Lukacs called it "the theory of proletarian revolution".
I’m sorry but simply dismissing historical materialism on the basis of primacy towards economics is a bit vague (and at the same time seemingly unthreatening). I think I would need a lot to be convinced that materialism/economics is not the starting point from which to understand social development. In the same way I would find it hard to believe that the theory of natural selection is not the primary foundation of evolution (although as Darwin, and Stephen Jay Gould emphasises, is not the only factor in evolution), even if we may both agree to dismiss metaphysical influences on evolution.
Can you give historical examples to back up this claim and where an alternative approach is necessary? I know there is plenty of historiographical debates among Marxists - from the fall of the Roman empire (ie, debates on the over reliance on slavery to the Roman economy, although this has been challenged) to explaining the English Civil War, French Revolution etc. What would be your theoretical position for explaining historical change? Are you arguing a liberalist historical approach, which sees historical change as a series of unconnected phenomena? Or worse, a post-modernist approach?
Your fragmented vision of the world seems a political leaning towards post-modernism (ie a rejection of essentialism)– I’m sure it isn’t, but just want clarification.
The problem with oppression, as our modern world shows, without an economic analysis we simply end up in the politics of tolerance. Why stop at race, sex etc. What about the oppression of obesity? Should obesity have equal footing to explain the world alongside economics? According to Slavoj Zizek, there are some organisations in the US which argue you should withdraw healthy eating education to children because it is an attack on the dignity of obese people.
Of course oppression is a real political, social and economic reality, and in my opinion can only truly be understood by using an historical materialist approach. Isn’t the real problem today not that there is too much emphasis on economics in explaining racism, but there isn’t enough? We seem to have removed the class analysis from the equation - which of course is great for capitalism. As a resident of North London, which is currently engulfing as I write - this is a big problem.
Historical materialism can unite those facing different oppressions through common cause, by piecing together our historical legacy. In order to be free ourselves, our brothers and sisters must also be free. The fight against class exploitation is also the fight against social oppression and vice versa. For Walter Benjamin in his melancholic messianic vision, our struggle today is intimately linked to the struggle of the past – our victory is both remembrance and vilification of the dead.
Racism, crudely, is historically linked to economic and class exploitation. Its modern variant took flight because you had a bourgeoise arguing freedom, liberty and equality, while at the same time trying to justify its use of slavery. Historical progress is not linear. Oppression does not stay the same - its level of attack both rises and falls. Placing oppression within a historical materialist approach allows you to identify the unique historical themes but also learn from it, as well as understand economically its base. That is not to say one must simply reduce it to economics - but I don't think marxists (or at least good ones) do.
It is like if you were to have a debate on the marxist analysis of art and culture. Yes you would find an extremely economically reductionist version if you read Georgi Plekhanov (ie, art is a merely reflection of economic basis of society). On the other hand, if you read someone like Terry Eaglton on the subject it is far more fluid and interesting. The same goes for reading historical marxist figures around oppression.
You say “historical materialism establishes an organisational framework” – how can historical materialism establish an organisational framework?
Are you therefore saying the problem with Marxism/historical materialism is it causes division due its aims and focus on proletarian revolution (as opposed to some kind of united/popular front revolution)? The danger with popular front revolutions (as Iran 1979 was testimony to), it doesn’t always work out well for the left!
For Walter Benjamin:
“To articulate the past historically… It means to seize hold of a memory as it flashes up at a moment of danger. Historical materialism wishes to retain that image of the past which unexpectedly appears to man singled out by history at a moment of danger. The danger affects both the content of the tradition and its receivers. The same threat hangs over both: that of becoming a tool of the ruling classes. In every era the attempt must be made anew to wrest tradition away from a conformism that is about to overpower it.”
When you say you have a British Leninist who will reply (any clues as to who it will be?)
Reply this comment
Re: Historical Materialism
By Evans, Mark at Aug 09, 2011 20:28 PM
This interview was undertaken by the New Left Project and was initially published on their website. That is where you will also find the reply article from a pro-Leninist position. I think it is called In Defence of Leninism or something, but it is really not very good. Mostly sycophantic nonsense about Lenin followed by what is either deliberate misrepresentation or misunderstanding interjected with the occasional juvenile comment. Im surprise the NLP people published it. Their required standards for me where much higher.
I am writing from Birmingham, parts of which are also up in flames as a result of rioting.
You ask -
“When you say Marxists primacy towards economics is an inaccurate picture of reality – why?”
The short answer is that I don’t think that there is an “economic base” or a “base” of any kind for that matter. Rather, the theory that I use teaches that society is made-up of two fundamental networks - the human centre and the institutional boundary - plus four social sphere - political, economic, kinship and community - and that all of these impact on, and co-define, each other. A key insight of this theory, which contrasts sharply with historical materialism, is that there is no a priori presumption that any one of these four social sphere is dominant. Rather our position is that such a conclusion can only be reached by looking at a specific society. This outlook - you may have already noticed - has consequences for organising and strategy.
You also ask -
“Is this a critique of a materialist philosophy? Are you alternatively arguing for philosophical idealism? I’m really interested where the basis of this statement comes from philosophically.”
As you will have noticed, immediately before the paragraph that you quote from the interview, I state that my thinking is “informed by participatory vision and strategy”. The links at the top of the interview will take readers, who are interested in finding out about this approach to organising, to numerous articles etc on this topic. ZNet has whole sections of its site dedicated to the subject.
Possibly my favourite introduction to the liberating theory that I use and advocate is chapter one of Robin Hahnel’s The ABC’s of Political Economy in which he writes -
“The liberating theory presented briefly in this chapter attempts to transcend historical materialism without throwing the baby out with the bath water. It incorporates insights from feminism, national liberation and anti-racist movements, and anarchism, as well as from mainstream psychology, sociology, and evolutionary biology where useful. Liberating theory attempts to understand the relationship between economic, political, kinship and cultural activities, and the forces behind social stability and social change, in ways that neither over nor undermine the importance of economic dynamics, and neither over nor underestimates the importance of human agency compared to social forces.”
You also write -
“ I’m sorry but simply dismissing historical materialism on the basis of primacy towards economics is a bit vague (and at the same time seemingly unthreatening). I think I would need a lot to be convinced that materialism/economics is not the starting point from which to understand social development.”
No need to apologise! I completely agree. I don’t think that anyone should be convince solely on the brief account that I give. Nor is my intention to threaten anybody - if you disagree that is fine! But in my defence I felt a need to touch on some important issues that relate to Leninism. I also supplied information and links for suggested further reading that people can look at if they are interested. Plus I was only give a very short amount of words by the interviewer to work with - which of course is understandable.
You ask -
“Can you give historical examples to back up this claim and where an alternative approach is necessary?”
The troubles in Northern Ireland, apartheid South Africa, Palestine / Israel, you name it...
You ask -
“Isn’t the real problem today not that there is too much emphasis on economics in explaining racism, but there isn’t enough?”
That might be the case in some places at some time but it is not necessarily the case everywhere all the time. It is not impossible for the exact opposite to be true - but historical materialism rules that possibility out. That is how it can distort reality to fit ideology which in turn can undermine the effectiveness of our organisational efforts.
You say -
“ It is like if you were to have a debate on the marxist analysis of art and culture. Yes you would find an extremely economically reductionist version if you read Georgi Plekhanov (ie, art is a merely reflection of economic basis of society). On the other hand, if you read someone like Terry Eaglton on the subject it is far more fluid and interesting. The same goes for reading historical marxist figures around oppression.”
This is one of the problems with debating “Marxism”. It may turn out that we just have very different understandings of historical materialism. But if you take a closer look at Liberating Theory you might find that it is very close to the more sophisticated Marxists you mention. For me, however, if one rejects the economic base then historical materialism becomes meaningless and I wonder why, after rejecting as central aspect of the ideology, such people feel the need to continue to call themselves Marxists.
You ask -
“You say “historical materialism establishes an organisational framework” – how can historical materialism establish an organisational framework?”
What I am trying to say here - probably not very well - is that by highlighting economic / class issues historical materialism will inform our revolutionary organisational priorities in a similar fashion. This tends to result in economic / class issues been treated as more significant than other forms of oppression. My concern is that this leads to tensions and splits within the left and not solidarity. For example Marxists and anarchists have disagreed over strategic priorities which have resulted in the historic split and breakdown of the first international. It is possible that this split was unnecessary and only occurred as a result of both groups using the wrong theoretical framework to inform their organising - the Marxists prioritising economics and class and the anarchists prioritising government and political authoritarianism. That is what we (advocates of participatory vision and strategy) are trying to overcome.
PS. you lost me with the obesity issue. As you will see if you take a look at my other writing I advocate participatory economic (parecon) as an alternative economic system to capitalism. Parecon is a self-managed worker / consumer economic system. What people eat will be determined by the workers / consumers themselves which I guess / hope will continue to vary from place to place. If workers / consumers want advice from health experts then they can invite them in to their councils and it could also be incorporated into the education syllabus, media projects etc. if desired.
I hope that helps.
Please let me know if you have any other comments or question.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Historical Materialism
By N, Andrew at Aug 15, 2011 19:35 PM
A pleasure!
This interview was undertaken by the New Left Project and was initially published on their website. That is where you will also find the reply article from a pro-Leninist position. I think it is called In Defence of Leninism or something, but it is really not very good. Mostly sycophantic nonsense about Lenin followed by what is either deliberate misrepresentation or misunderstanding interjected with the occasional juvenile comment. Im surprise the NLP people published it. Their required standards for me where much higher.
Personally, while enjoying the flexing of intellectual mussels, most debates of this kind tend to result in exaggeration and purposeful misinterpretations on all sides (guilty of it myself sometimes). They vary rarely get to the nub of the matter and most people have largely made up their minds which side of the argument they are on before it even starts. With this in mind, I will try to be open minded as I possibly can with the few follow up questions/comments I have.
The short answer is that I don’t think that there is an “economic base” or a “base” of any kind for that matter. Rather, the theory that I use teaches that society is made-up of two fundamental networks - the human centre and the institutional boundary - plus four social sphere - political, economic, kinship and community - and that all of these impact on, and co-define, each other. A key insight of this theory, which contrasts sharply with historical materialism, is that there is no a priori presumption that any one of these four social sphere is dominant. Rather our position is that such a conclusion can only be reached by looking at a specific society. This outlook - you may have already noticed - has consequences for organising and strategy.
To argue that materialism/economics is not a starting point to understanding society seems to me seriously flawed. For example, can you explain to me the origins of racism?
For if you argue the sphere of racism has equal importance to understanding how our society works, you are basically arguing that racism is natural phenomena of existence, of being human. Alternatively, you end up with a completely idealist interpretation of the world – our ideas shape the world around us, rather than the world around us shapes our ideas.
Obviosuly I can't really comment on the fact that society is made up of human centre and institutional boundary as it is quite abstract - sounds a bit like something you learn in business studies class. Although, interesting isn't this a bit Maoist/Althuesean? According to a book I recently read (I know very little in this area so am no expert):
"Althusserians created a theoretical structure which destroyed most of the content of the old notions of ‘base’, ‘superstructure’ and ‘determination’. Society consisted of a number of different structures – the political, the economic, the ideological, the linguistic – each developing at its own speed, and having an impact on the others. At any particular point in history it could be any one of them that dominated the others. It was only ‘in the last instance’ that the economic was ‘determinant’."
“The liberating theory presented briefly in this chapter attempts to transcend historical materialism without throwing the baby out with the bath water. It incorporates insights from feminism, national liberation and anti-racist movements, and anarchism, as well as from mainstream psychology, sociology, and evolutionary biology where useful. Liberating theory attempts to understand the relationship between economic, political, kinship and cultural activities, and the forces behind social stability and social change, in ways that neither over nor undermine the importance of economic dynamics, and neither over nor underestimates the importance of human agency compared to social forces.”
Is this chapter available on Znet or only via book?
I think by denying the primacy of economics/materialism is throwing out the baby with the bath water.
I’d also argue that historical materialism attempts to understand this link as well, although to be honest the degree it does so will depend on which side of the “new left” you fall upon. For example, there has also been enormous debate regarding human agency versus social forces (ie, Althuseur or Thompson). It was also one of the central contradiction identified by Marx - namely ideas in society are those of the ruling class and the emancipation of workers must be done by workers. In general there is much I agree with, except as I stated above – the point at which there is an effective break with materialism.
No need to apologise! I completely agree. I don’t think that anyone should be convince solely on the brief account that I give. Nor is my intention to threaten anybody - if you disagree that is fine! But in my defence I felt a need to touch on some important issues that relate to Leninism. I also supplied information and links for suggested further reading that people can look at if they are interested. Plus I was only give a very short amount of words by the interviewer to work with - which of course is understandable.
Erm, sorry, if you thought I was being aggressive – I simply meant unthreatening in the sense that a criticism of historical materialism for giving primacy towards economics is a bit of a tautology. It’s a bit like saying the problem with racists today is they keep going on about black people.
You ask -
“Can you give historical examples to back up this claim and where an alternative approach is necessary?”
The troubles in Northern Ireland, apartheid South Africa, Palestine / Israel, you name it...
Ok as an example, can you explain to me (or provide a link) to the origins of the problems in Northern Ireland which does not essentially have its roots in economics (ie, the early English development of capitalism and colonialism etc)?
That might be the case in some places at some time but it is not necessarily the case everywhere all the time. It is not impossible for the exact opposite to be true - but historical materialism rules that possibility out. That is how it can distort reality to fit ideology which in turn can undermine the effectiveness of our organisational efforts.
Alternatively, by insisting that all economic and cultural spheres are of equal importance in understanding our world – is this not intellectual pandering? A post-modernist fear of being seen to be elitist? It tries to be all things to all men and women, but in the long run does not allow us to investigate where we are and where we have come from accurately.
Of course I also believe that oppression, and the psychology of exploitation and oppression play an enormous part in our lives. They are essential to our understanding of how we organise ourselves and how we understand and interact with each other. I mean I’m almost at the stage where I believe we should leave decisions on how we make decisions to psycho-analysts or have one on call to give us group therapy after every meeting and explain our inability to play nicely! (ok I’m joking but it would be nice to know to what level our libidinal drive was effecting our decision to pass a union motion!)
This is one of the problems with debating “Marxism”. It may turn out that we just have very different understandings of historical materialism. But if you take a closer look at Liberating Theory you might find that it is very close to the more sophisticated Marxists you mention. For me, however, if one rejects the economic base then historical materialism becomes meaningless and I wonder why, after rejecting as central aspect of the ideology, such people feel the need to continue to call themselves Marxists.
Well perhaps I haven’t explained myself very well, because these sophisticated Marxist are not an aberration of Marxism – they are for all real purpose true classical Marxist, in the same sense that Marx and Engels also argued along these lines. It is true perhaps that early marx was a bit more abstract and his famous base/superstructure model has been overly and wrongly used (this model was rejected by Engels who tried to explain that Marx only meant it as a metaphor). Of course this assumes that we both reject Stalin as not being “true” Marxists. Plekhanov who I mentioned above, can be linked to the social democratic reformist (and revisionists) form of Marxism.
To quote Engels:
According to the materialist conception of history, the ultimately determining element in history is the production and reproduction of real life. More than that neither Marx nor I have ever asserted. Hence if somebody twists this into saying that the economic element is the only determining one, he transforms that proposition into a meaningless abstract senseless phrase.
The economic situation is the basis, but the various elements of the superstructure – political forms of the class struggle and its results, to wit: constitutions established by victorious classes after a successful battle, etc., juridical forms and even the reflexes of these actual struggles in the brains of the participants, political, juristic, philosophical theories, religious views and their further development into systems of dogmas – also exercise their influence upon the course of the historical struggles and in many cases preponderate in determining their form ...
There is an interaction of all these elements in which, amid all the endless host of accidents, the economic element finally asserts itself as necessary.’
Nevertheless you are totally correct – will the real historical materialism step forward. The truth is, like all theories, it is very debatable and complex and people have taken it down various many paths. To be honest, I waiver myself. Some times I argue the moralism of Marx (the humanist wing of Marxism – ie, early Alasdair MacIntyre) some times I argue the cold scientific Marx etc (sadly its usually based on what the last book I read was!) . It’s a position I haven’t decided upon. For example I’m (at the moment) a big fan of Walter Benjamin (mainly because I think his Thesis on Philosophy and History is a 10 page work of art). It was interesting reading a recent debate in one of the marxist UK groups. One was accusing him of being a marxist revisionist, and culturalist – while another argued he was firmly in the classical Marxist family and criticised those who try to reclaim him for the Frankfurt school etc. The point is, historical materialism is not fixed. Yes this makes it hard to argue with, but at least I think people should debate it seriously and engage with its prominent thinkers - even in the sense to assist in developing alternative theories.
What I am trying to say here - probably not very well - is that by highlighting economic / class issues historical materialism will inform our revolutionary organisational priorities in a similar fashion. This tends to result in economic / class issues been treated as more significant than other forms of oppression. My concern is that this leads to tensions and splits within the left and not solidarity. For example Marxists and anarchists have disagreed over strategic priorities which have resulted in the historic split and breakdown of the first international. It is possible that this split was unnecessary and only occurred as a result of both groups using the wrong theoretical framework to inform their organising - the Marxists prioritising economics and class and the anarchists prioritising government and political authoritarianism. That is what we (advocates of participatory vision and strategy) are trying to overcome.
This is also fair enough if you think this is the case. The problem is, while I agree that other forms of oppressions are enormously important, the tactical side of thing is important. It also does not mean that you only fight battles that are directly linked to the economic. However, you do try to link fights against oppression and well as economic fights to the system as a totality. You build solidarity by uniting these struggles in a common fight. That fight is against capitalism, which is an economic system. The only way you can end racism, sexism and class etc is by fighting for an economic systems which is based on classless society, workers control and democracy. As such, ultimately, the thing that will bring about this change is an economic one, but the only way to get there is through building a movement linked to our collective struggles.
PS. you lost me with the obesity issue.
It doesn’t matter.
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Re: Re: Re: Historical Materialism
By N, Andrew at Aug 15, 2011 19:48 PM
Apologies - I tried to italise your comments above and my reply but it didn't seem to work. Although I'm sure you can make out the bits you said from the bits I said.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Materialism
By Evans, Mark at Aug 16, 2011 17:44 PM
Regarding the intellectual tool of the “human centre and institutional boundary” you comment -
“To argue that materialism/economics is not a starting point to understanding society seems to me seriously flawed. For example, can you explain to me the origins of racism?”
adding -
“For if you argue the sphere of racism has equal importance to understanding how our society works, you are basically arguing that racism is natural phenomena of existence, of being human. Alternatively, you end up with a completely idealist interpretation of the world – our ideas shape the world around us, rather than the world around us shapes our ideas.”
and also -
“Obviosuly I can't really comment on the fact that society is made up of human centre and institutional boundary as it is quite abstract...”
Firstly, Im not arguing that “the sphere of racism has equal importance”. Im arguing that the community sphere has equal importance and that it is within this sphere (that addresses our cultural and spiritual needs) that we find the roots of racism and not in the economic sphere which is to do with production, consumption and allocation.
Regarding your second point that “our ideas shape the world around us, rather than the world around us shapes our ideas” I would say that both the idealist and materialist outlooks are wrong. The intention with the human centre and institutional boundary concept is to recognise the importance of both factors. It is an abstract concept but it is also useful ... I think. This is what Albert and Hahnel had to say on the matter in their Unorthodox Marxism -
“As a counter to extreme idealism, the orthodox materialist outlook represents a great improvement. But as a theory of ideas being reflections of material relations, or as an argument against the need to seriously study the subjective world, or as an a priory assertion of the importance of production over all other forms of human activity, orthodox materialism is an impediment to an effective analysis of the world around us.”
This brings us to the more general point of the problems of “economism” - the unwarranted attribution of importance to economic / class issues.
For me the political, kinship, community and economic social sphere are all of equal importance.
For me, to assume a privileged position for the economic sphere (or any of the other sphere for that matter) above the others is a mistake. It not only seems to me to be an inaccurate description of reality but also one that has serious and negative ramifications for organising. Instead of generating solidarity amongst the various constituencies of the left - anti-sexist activists, anti-racist activists, anti- classist activists, anti-political authoritarianism activists - by saying that economics / class issues are the fundamental problem, advocates of historical materialism are also saying that sexism, racism and political authoritarianism are not so important. And in-so-doing Marxists generate unnecessary tensions between the various constituents which have led to factions and splits within the revolutionary left.
On a number of occasions you ask for historical examples. Im reluctant to do this for two reasons. One is that Im not an historian so I probably wouldn’t do a very good job. The second is that even if I did attempt to provide you with an historical example I doubt you would be convinced. What tends to happen is that Marxists look at history through a historical materialist lens and see confirmation of historical materialism everywhere they look. The exercise is pointless unless Marxists are willing to look at the world through a different conceptual framework - which, by definition, they are not.
Instead consider the following passage from Hahnel’s The A,B,C of Political Economy (not available on-line but well worth buying) -
“All four spheres are socially necessary. Any society that fails to produce and distribute the material means of life would cease to exist. Some Marxists argue that this implies that the economic sphere, or what they call the economic “base” or “mode of production”, is necessarily dominant in any and all human societies. But any society that fails to procreate and rear the next generation would also cease to exist. So the kinship sphere of social life is just as “socially necessary” as the economic sphere. And any society that fails to mediate conflict among its members would disintegrate. Which means the political sphere of social life is necessary as well. Finally, since all societies have existed in the context of others, historically distinct communities, all societies have had to establish some kind of relations with others social communities, and most have had to define relations among internal communities as well. This means that the community sphere of social life is as necessary as the political, kinship and economics spheres.”
It seems to me that if you agree with this statement and recognise the necessity of all four social sphere then you have rejected historical materialism. On the other hand if you maintain a commitment to historical materialism then you need to say which of the four social sphere are unnecessary for social life to continue. If all four social spheres are necessary - as I believe they are - then to prioritise one above the others is a distortion of reality.
But in the end I suspect that the only way you will be convinced, and probably the only reason you should be convinced, is if you take a serious look at Liberating Theory and use its concepts to take a fresh look at historical events and see if it makes sense to you. But this will mean stepping out of your Marxist framework - at least temporarily.
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norton
By Tatsuo, Miyachi at Aug 07, 2011 06:47 AM
Thus, Stalinism is chracterized by top-down party structure,and embezzlement of labor product.
Below is alternative proposal
1.There are only two method to change capitalist society. One is to take over the means of production occupied by bourgeois class. The latter is to refuse to work under capitalist society. The former is fundamental concept of Marxist, and it achieved in Russian revolution 1917. The latter has only supplement of the former as community building. Below is that the latter become more realistic when bourgeois revolutions Are completed,development of capitalist matures as real tactics of revolution The period form 19 to 20C were bourgeois revolution. The distinctive feature is that under feudal system capitalist class emerged and then became political forces, finally took over political power from feudal system representatives. It began in England and spread to France, but their productions were inevitably emerging worker class who spread as political revolution force and spread its forces finally achieved proletariat revolution. According this idea of permanent revolution. In period of bourgeois revolution, Proletariat must adjust the political environment. According to Marx’s permanent revolution, Lenin success in proletariat revolution in which bourgeois change occurred. It succeded in Rusia but in other countries, it defeated.Within bourgeios system Proletariat were given as supplemental position,ahd this system became stability was post-war period. Thus enviromnet of political arrangement radiccaly chnaged compared with Marx,or Lenin’s period. Tactics of using bourgeis revolution and gaining political power was not to be accepted.
2. Today, tactics of permanent revolution lost its ground, How doe means Russian revolution and its collapse? Lessons from Russian revolution results from analyzing the degeneration of proletariat dictatorship. Various factors existed, in today, we must be clear to abolish commodity and money due to dictatorship of proletariat.
3. If Marx said, emerging money from commodities results from instinctively Unconscious collective action of actors who are ruled by will of commodity , To abolish commodities and money is to stop this process. But this instinctive Unconscious collective action cannot abolish from Human wills, So We must start to make a detour which cann make unnecesarry to this Unconscious collective action . Thus to exploit capital, it could acheive by proletariat,their conscious will and political power,but these unconscious collecitve action would be unable by human will,other word, political will.If so,it become clear that NEP’s Inevitability and meaning of NEP under proletaliat as cultural revolution.NEP was to overcome economical deadrock which resulted from war communism and exploit farmers. Thus NEP was trying to save revolution by revival of commodity production.But in that time govermnet saw it tactics of retreat from revolution.So if economical revival was acieved,to abolish money is premise. Today, NEP was not proved retreat from revolution rather the tactics inevitable to lead social revolution avoiding to intervene farmers.Later Lenin knew it, but already he lost powers.
3.Marx; he proved in Capital money is the collective social product which is produced by unconsicious collecive action of commodity holder.But he continued to think to abolish money and commodity due to social
revolution.young Marx aruged that the more political society become ,the less peope only understand the social problem within the political term.To grasp social problem, one must understand the social relations.This differenciation berween political spirit and social sprit needs characteristic analysis. and Marx said that political revolution with social spirit is needed, and political spirit with potical spirit is to be failed.
4.Let start with social understanding.When we want to resolve the problem of social relation, human political spirit cannot go,in other word,by human will may not go. Young Marx considered social revolution is needed by ploretaliat dictator.ButÅ@its programe was different from later Marx.To abolish commodiry and money is impossible by political will,But to abolish capital is possible for human’s will. For example, in Revolution 1917,leftist could abolish capital but could not abolish commodities and money. So, we must start with this stance.Usual alienation revolution theory seeks weakness of capitalist society is alienated labor ,so they aim to liberliation from alienated laborÅBThis idea is latter method bcause of aim at worker’s suject constraction.But this process is limited within immediate production process, and led to trade uninionism. Now,we mind reificatio theory(Versachlung)as a forom of self-alienation,we could not challenge the refication due to alienated state.Refication means that things (Sach)rule peoaple’ mind (reverse is usual)and the thigs that are produced by people unconsciously,so toÅ@resist these things,human’s will can’t go.
The latter line, ie.Å@to refuse work under capitalist may imagine strike or sabotage but its line must continue. Rather,we could difine it as Alternative lives.If workers refuse work under capitalist, and try to live, It is for the time being defined as Workers collecitve. If this area will spread,and invade into capital’s area, capitalists will become unnecessary.Historically, the reverse occured.But it will look away.The cause of failure Usual worker’s collectine,or self-management is its limited aim for example,work for survival and not open to global society,If we can these experience to means of social revolution,Its meaning will change.
5.If we will inherit proletariat dictatorship,Å@Firstly,we overcome democacy,and make clear the perspective. This relate the high political lebel of the people’smovements already overcoming maximum of programe by each leftsist parties. First,to make clear the perspective social revolution,and practrically by people’s movements to answer to abolish commedity and money. Thidly,to form the cultral Fotheory is needes.To form cultural theory,Å@new forms of cultural konoledge. Usual parties oranizaiton of people’s firstly by subject to party’s program,then organize workers by paphret,publishing, and so on .This type of oragization is Stalin’s type,which proved differnt from Lenin’s. Today,such organinization can’t go.
6.permanent revolutuion; It lost meaningless as tactics of revolution,but with historical perspective,term of contiuative revolution becomes
meaning.Revolution began with Ruussia,after it, many revolutions occured and sevral result were produced. In this sense,we live in a global transitional period.And correspondent political counsciousness is produced. From our perspective,difined current society
as global transitional with Russia revolitionary ,then, in many academic,there meny Marxists argued thead two ecnomics of contra dictal systems between caipitalst abd socalism and socialism finatry.a This view is capital collapsed and finary socislidm will ein.This line many comunist was peace movement including to use of congless, whicih Japan commnist party adopt.and this line also collpsed.Comparef witht Our world revolution ,international dictator of prolatarit lead to armed struggle.and it ended by arresting leaders.
If our tactics of labor to refuse is adopted, Politics must be chnaged.New area within capitalist, The differencin Strategy and tactics are resolves.Mass movemet result from the movement that organize in the level maximam demand.
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Re: norton
By Evans, Mark at Aug 07, 2011 14:52 PM
Are there any references to the institutional analysis I make of democratic centralism and Leninist strategy more generally?
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