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"There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Paul Street at Dec 23, 2004

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It's always nice to hear that considerable numbers of Americans tell nice and progressive things to public opinion pollsters. But when I see the happy data showing that the United States populace supports peace, justice, and democracy, not empire and inequality, in various issue and policy areas, I like to ask three basic questions: (1) how strong is their sense of urgency and relevance in regard to the progressive issue opinion they have given to the pollster? (2) how up-to- speed are they on how this issue is playing out and where it comes from? (3) how willing are they to actually do something about the issue in question? It's nice, for example, to learn that that a much larger percentage of white Americans tell pollsters that they support racial integration and equal-opportunity for African-Americans today than was the case 30 and 40 years ago. The problem is that many and indeed probably most whites no longer have much sense of urgency or need to act on behalf of civil rights and social justice for blacks. They have been convinced that racism is no longer a problem in American life and nobody is really forcing their feet to the fire on the issue --- which in fact remains very alve, all the more so because mainstream wisdom holds that "all the [racial] corrections have been made." I once had a fascinating conversation with a very successful and witty liberal-left policy intellectual who sat on the board of a leading civil rights organization. He and I were voicing shared agreement with a newspaper column that denounced the hopeless risk-averse conservatism and general listless cooptation of certain civil rights organizations both national and local. After regaling me with the story of a recent civil rights board chairman whose company was laying off thousands of workers --- including many of the civil rights organization's constituency --- and telling me that the decrepit CEOs and boards of the post-civil rights movement were doing the black community little good, my liberal-left friend then said, "but there's not much that can be done about it." He did not elaborate. It's nice to learn, as a Chicago Council of Foreign Relations opinion survey reported last fall, that: * 69 percent of Americans want more money spent on education versus just 29 percent who want more funding to "defense." * 87 % of Americans support nuclear test ban * 71% embrace the Kyoto Treaty on global warming * 76% are for US working with and under the rules of the international Criminal Court * 53 % say we have a unilateral right to go war only if we are in truly imminent dangers of attack and only 17% accept Bush's de facto preventive war doctrine * 84% think the US shoud work its international relations problems through the UN even if the UN will sometimes rules against official US wishes * 72% of Americans say the US should leave remove its troops from Iraq if that's what the Iraqi people think we should do. Great. So how many of the people polled don't know and/or care that Bush Amerika's official policy positions are the oppposite of majority opinion as measured at least by the CCFR?: anti-Kyoto, anti-ICC, anti-test ban...dedicated to the marginalization of the UN and international law? How many of them know or care that 29 cents on every one of their single US tax dollars goes to "defense" (Empire that is, including more than $151 billion so far to pay for the racist imperial oil war of choice in and on Iraq, a sum that would have permitted the hiring of more than 2,600,000 new public school teachers for one year) compared to just 4 cents on education? How many of them know that 80 percent of Iraqis surveyed last spring lacked confidence in the Coalition Provisional Authority and 82 percent disagreed with the presence of US and allied militaries in Iraq? That a USA Today, CNN and Gallup poll conducted around the same time found that 57 percent of Iraqis wanted foreign troops to leave immediately? These polls were conducted before the April uprising and the prison scandals, which certainly increased Iraqi's desire for Uncle Sam to get the Hell out. Is it that people don't know all this or that they don't care? Or do they perhaps know and maybe even care but lack confidence that anything might be done? "Nothing can be done," to quote my liberal civil rights friend. And on that note check out the disturbing front-page New York Times article that I have pasted in below: Kirk Johnson. "Fighting On Is the Only Option, Americans Say," NYT, 22 December 2004, sec. 1, p.1. According to a number of Americans the Times reporter and his stringers interviewed, "whether one supported or opposed the invasion has become irrelevant... there is only the road ahead now, with few signs to guide the way." It doesn't matter that this is an insane racist and imperialist occupation, we must proceed ahead, at whatever more ghastly price, because...well, according to a cotton farmer-lawyer quoted below, pulling back would make us "look weak" and that would be "a victory for the enemy." Would that "enemy" include the majority of Iraqi people, who resent the imperial occupation of their country? "We've got to hang in and get the job done," this fellow says. I assume he means "the job" of exporting democracy or something like that. Has he done any moderately serious investigation into what the real US objectives are in Iraq and the Middle East, pretty much the same as they have been for many decades: control and exploitation of strategic, highly prized oil resources? A "financial adviser" lady says that "the nation [the US I presume] should protect the soldiers, give them a clear mission, and then help the Iraqi people as best it can." "I still don't see any good coming from this," she feels. "I'm saddened and angered." Fine, does she know the Iraqis would like her to support her troops by ending this illegal and immoral occupation of their country? Would she be willing to do something to end this sad and angering situation: stopping this war on the people of Iraq? The saddest quote comes from a GI mother who told the Times that Tuesday's bombing in Mosul (which killed 19 US soldiers in an American mess hall) has "combined with the prospect of her son's [imminent] departure" to Iraq to leave her "absolutely devastated." "It's like watching your son playing in traffic, and there's nothing you can do," Ms. Bellows said. "You can't reach him." There we go again: "nothing can be done." Not true. Not one American family has to sacrifice any of their children on the imperial altars of ignorance, racism, greed, national pride, helplessness, and fatalism. Here are two organizations that troops, veterans, and families who are questioning this terrible, bloody war of imperial choice should think about contacting: IRAQ VETERANS AGAINST THE WAR, led by Michael Hoffman. See web site at www.ivaq.net. MILITARY FAMILIES SPEAK OUT, at www.mfso.org, which says "if you have family members or loved ones in the military and you are opposed to the war, join us. Send us an e-mail at mfso@mfso.org." See also the piece still up on the ZNet site by ex-Special Forces antiwar activist Stan Goff. This is an illegal and unjust war and it's not worth giving up a single one of our children to satisfy the imperial narcissism of the war criminals and deceivers in the White House, the Congress, the Pentagon, and the "defense" and petrochemical industries. This occupation is wrong and it should be resisted and much can be done. Note how the Times article (below) ends, with Hoffman observing that our presence in Iraq only provokes more chaos there. American troops, resist this unjust war and the murderers who are conducting it. December 22, 2004 THE PUBLIC Fighting On Is the Only Option, Americans Say By KIRK JOHNSON DENVER, Dec. 21 - Americans across the country expressed anguish about the devastating attack on a United States military base in Iraq on Tuesday. But it was the question of where the nation should go from here that produced the biggest sigh from Dallas Spear, an oil and gas industry worker from Denver. "I would never have gone there from the beginning, but that's beside the point now," Mr. Spear said, his jaw clenched. "We upset the apple cart and now there's pretty much no choice. We have to proceed." Mr. Spear's sentiment was echoed in interviews in shopping malls, offices, sidewalks and homes on a day when the news from Iraq was bleak. With 14 American service members killed and dozens injured, it was apparently the worst one-day death toll for American forces since United States forces defeated Saddam Hussein's regime in spring 2003. Many people said they were dispirited or angry, but many expressed equal unhappiness about seeing a lack of options. Whether one supported or opposed the invasion has become irrelevant, many said - there is only the road ahead now, with few signs to guide the way. One soldier who has been to Iraq and is soon to go back said he believes the war itself has changed, and that guerrilla attacks like the one in the northern Iraq city of Mosul on Tuesday have constricted the view on the ground about how to proceed. "When we went to war there was a clear-cut enemy," said Specialist Richard P. Basilio, 27, of Philadelphia, who leaves for Iraq after the holidays for a 12- to 18-month deployment as an Army computer technician. It will be his third tour to the Middle East and his second to Iraq. "Now the rules have totally changed. You don't know what's going on," he added. "You just have no idea who's your friend and who's your enemy." Mr. Basilio's mother, Janet Bellows of Daytona Beach, Fla., said the bombing in Mosul, combined with the prospect of her son's departure, have left her "absolutely devastated." "It's like watching your son playing in traffic, and there's nothing you can do," Ms. Bellows said. "You can't reach him." Polls show that many Americans were deeply concerned about the course of the war even before Tuesday's attack. Out of 1,002 Americans surveyed last Friday and Saturday by the CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, 47 percent said, when asked how the United States had handled Iraq during the past year, that things had gotten worse. Twenty percent said the situation had improved and 32 percent said it was about the same. Some people said that polls themselves were part of the problem. Charlie Eubanks, a cotton farmer and lawyer from the Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas, said he supported President Bush but had been lukewarm about going to war. Now, he said there was no choice but to fight on, and that reports on opinion polls were only "aiding and abetting" the enemy by making opponents think the American will is weak. "We've got to hang in there and get it done," Mr. Eubanks said. Some people said that part of what they struggle with is how to square the ongoing violence with their beliefs about human nature and decency. "How to deal with the rebels and the insurgency - I don't know. But I believe that people are inherently good and rational," said Traci Sillick, a financial adviser from Broomfield, Colo. Ms. Sillick said she thought the nation should protect the soldiers, give them a clear mission, and then help the Iraqi people as best it can. "I still don't see any good coming from this," she said. "I'm saddened and angered." Mike Lepis, 30, a small-business owner from Portland, Ore., on a visit to Atlanta, said the bombing reinforced the distinction in his mind between the troops fighting the war and the war itself. "I don't agree with the war, but I support the troops," Mr. Lepis said. "It leads me to believe we have less control when we can't guarantee their safety. It's particularly unsettling when you hear about violence in areas that are supposed to be secure." Carolyn Jolly, 50, a civilian employee of the Army in Fort Lee, Va., said the attack did not change her opinion that American forces should be in Iraq. But she is equally firm in her belief that they should get out as soon as possible. And she is worried. "I think we should stay through the elections," Ms. Jolly said. "I support the president's plan up to there. But if we're going to focus on Iraq without support of other nations, I see the violence increasing. I can't see a democratic Iraq. So what are we doing there?" And while some said the attack reinforced their belief that the Bush administration had failed in its goals, others found it hard to place blame. Stan Joynes, a real estate lawyer and developer in Richmond, Va., said the administration was not upfront about what would be required in Iraq. But maybe, he added, the administration did not know either. "We know now we weren't getting the whole picture," he said. "I don't think they knew the whole picture." One military veteran, Bob Mayo, 73, who served in the Air Force from 1949 to 1957, said that increasing violence in Iraq was just a sign of desperation by the nation's enemies. "It tells me that they are worried that they are going to lose," said Mr. Mayo, of Newcastle, Colo. "They are just trying to make it as painful as possible and they don't care how they do it." Mr. Mayo said he would not characterize the situation in Iraq as getting worse. "There is no worse in war," he said. "War is the worst thing that can happen." Another military veteran who has become active in opposing the war said the message of Tuesday's attack was not desperation, but greater organization by the insurgents. "It's just like Vietnam: the longer we stay there, the more anti-American sentiment will be drummed up, the more organized the insurgency becomes," said Mike Hoffman of Iraq Veterans Against the War and a former Marine lance corporal who was in Iraq from March to early May 2003. "Unfortunately, the longer we stick around, the more we're likely to see attacks like this." Reporting for this article was contributed by Lisa Bacon from Richmond, Va.; Ariel Hart from Atlanta; Karen Hastings from Harlingen, Tex.; Gretchen Ruethling from Chicago; and Mindy Sink from Denver.

Comment On This Blog Post  See All Comments (54)

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Shannon, James at Jan 04, 2005 01:48 AM
Having served in Viet Nam as an infantry officer - I can state as a matter of fact that soldiers fight for one another in order to survive. All governments throughout history have used young and stupid boys as expendable cannon fodder to protect the asses of the wealthy. Stupidity is not courage, and allowing others to manipulte you into dying for them is the ultimate stupidity. I was young and stupid - but no more. I have no use for For all you no good chicken sh-- sissy pants bed wetting co-- su----- who wave the flag and hide behind your momma's apron/the flag, as you allow our Commander-in Chief to kill others, but that is the history of educated idiots, led around like sheep to the slaughter.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 29, 2004 12:10 PM
I don´t think that anyone here paints an idealistic picture of the GIs but to generalize the comments about the soldiers is unfair and a too easy (call it naive) explanation of what is happening among the troops. I do not agree with some elitist attitudes and ad hominem comments showed here, that´s all.

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Person

Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 29, 2004 08:32 AM
I have little sympathy for American GI's in Iraq. As far as men in uniform goes, I am far more sympthetic towards the poorly equipped, emaciated Iraqi conscripts. Many were just kids who were forced into oversized uniforms. God knows how many were incenerated alive by "shock and awe". Even brown people have family and love ones! And they have no choice. Vastly outgunned, they were defending their homland from "our boys". Even among the leftists I only hear about dead Iraqi civilians as if soldiers are fair game. But not in this case. You know the sad truth? Judging from the re-election of Bush the only way this sordid war will end is when more American troops come back in bodybags. Unfortunately too many Americans(not all, obviously)are incapable of empathy.Maybe be pain will do the trick. I am sorry if I offend some people here. But let me put my bias upfront.

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4101

Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Servo, Tom at Dec 29, 2004 07:40 AM
and i would like to think that "there's sumthin i can do" about it.time to close thread?

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4101

Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Servo, Tom at Dec 29, 2004 07:38 AM
I get worked up about them and the iraqis,afghanis, everyone who DIES because of this illegal and immoral war.even if it were legal. even if congress had issued a declaration of war against iraq. i would still be against it because the war would have been used solely to support evil. i want people in iraq to stop dying.... people from all nations and walks of life.

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Person

Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 29, 2004 07:26 AM
I am afraid some of you paint too idealistic a picture of the GI's. People join the army for all kinds of reasons. No doubt many are recruited because of lack of other prospects,some are 'naive"(as baby pits it) and basically got conned by the cool ads(this is very distinct possibility even though it seems politically incorrect to say this here), some signed up because they feel their lives are so f&^ked up that they think army "discipline" may do them good(I know such people). Then you have some who join the army because they are brutes and psychopaths to begin with. There are all kinds. The fact that the recruits are predominately from the poor demographic does not imply they are morally superior. The purpose of military trainning is to turn normal people into kiling machines and to a large extent it works.

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Person

Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 29, 2004 07:20 AM
I don't know why you guys are so worked up over the GI's. There are some GI's who deserted and a few are seeking refugee status in canada. I think we should support them any way we can(unfortunately not much we can do)But over all it is a relatively small number. I have also heard soldiers who are 100% behind Bush and express the wish to kick more areses. I suspect the latter is by far the majority. I won't hold my breath waiting for a mutany any time soon. I am afraid some of you paint too idealistic a picture of the GI's. People join the army for all kinds of reasons. No doubt many are recruited because of lack of other prospects,some are 'naive"(as baby pits it) and basically got conned by the cool ads(this is very distinmct possibility even though it seems politically incorrect to say this here)Then you have some who join the army because they are brutes and psychopaths to begin with. The fact that the recruits are predominately from the poor demographic does not omply they are morally superior. The purpose of military trainning is to turn normal people into kiling machines and to a large extent it works.

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Person

Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 28, 2004 22:17 PM
joeblogs56, "What I feel has been lacking in comments on this blog is focus for action and support of such". I wouldn´t be such "drastic" (sorry, but I couldn´t find a better word, you know, english is not my first language): Paul´s article provides links to the Families and Veterans Web sites and jokerman´s comments have been really useful. Anyway, I think it is time to close this topic because we are on page 6 right now.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 28, 2004 21:28 PM
joeblogs56, my point in the "discusion" was to show that the US Army soldiers cannot be accused of being blind,stupid,naive,... for joining the US Army and refuse to commit war crimes. In my opinion, to say that the soldiers wo enlisted should have known that they were going to be asked to commit war crimes is not fair (and It is also irrelevant from a legal point of view) . The next step in this misunderstand between Army and war crimes will be the ban of the Geneva Conventions(because it would be unnecessary) and this will be a "free game". The GIs have the (international legal) right to refuse to commit war crimes but (as jokerman has said) it is quite difficult for them to stand down from service in a "legal" way due to the law in the US. I second every word you have said in the comment.

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Person

Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 28, 2004 19:31 PM
Baby, of course that the discusion is over, it has been over since you have decided to misrepresent all my posts.

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Person

Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 28, 2004 19:17 PM
Your presumed contradiction is fictive, and a misunderstanding on your part, Just as when YOU introduced "duty" as MY concept. You use generalizations and dont point to spesifics in my comment. This allso clouds any rational argument. No you have not explained any contradiction other than a hairsplitter about Army not being a defenceforce. ( words words ) and an attempt at LAW being equal to its implementation One last time:(And yes "discussion" is over) Joining the USArmed forces could lead you into combatsituations. It is a pity this was unclear at point of signing contract. What naivite.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 28, 2004 14:58 PM
Yes, jokerman, I know that the US law regarding this issue is quite hard and since Bush does not want to sign the International Criminal Court treaty (what a surprise), and the Geneva Conventions are being bypassed every single day in Iraq it is quite difficult for the soldiers to prove(if they would have the chance to do so) that their Gov´t orders them to commit war crimes. I also agree with your reference to Afghanistan.

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4101

Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Servo, Tom at Dec 28, 2004 14:39 PM
Wandering: neither am I. Even if Bush , Rummy, etc are thrown in jail (they won;t be), thery would simply be replaced by other members of the ruling owning class who share their views.... Republican *and* Democrat. I have been thinking about legal ways to evade service in Vietnam ... oops... I mean Iraq. Women may become pregnant.... the men may suddenly feel the need to identify themselves as alcohol and drug abusers (whether they are or are not), or act out a suicide attempt. In either event, they will end up in the hospital, and run a very good risk of being discharged honorably. For those who wish to refuse service in Iraq or Afghanistan (don;t forget aboutt hat place) but niot be discharged, I have no idea how to help them.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 28, 2004 12:42 PM
Baby, If "we" are going to have a "discusion", to read the posts properly is necessary (I have clearly explain were is the contradiction in your arguments so do not try to avoid and elude it), if not, I think this "discusion" is over. jokerman326, I agree with your comment about the election but sadly it has gone away and now it is necessary to search a legal way to help the soldiers who do not want to participate in this illegal war (and, as I have said, I´m almost sure that some lawyers in the US are working on it). Yes, Bush and the rest of the gang should be in jail for committing war crimes, but these trials are always "made" by the "winners" of the wars so I´m not very optimistic on it.

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4101

Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Servo, Tom at Dec 28, 2004 04:10 AM
What is fascinating to me is not that the public has been asked to particpate in a debate about whether we should throw soldiers who refuse and resist in prison, but rather, we have not been asked if we should throw rummy, w, cheney, etc into jail for starting an illegal, immoral war in the first place. I would have loved to hear *one* major candidate from the opposition party say "If elected, I will begin prosecuting those who prosecuted this illegal and immoral war." But of course, we didn;t hear that. The only way we could punish the evil doers was to vote them out.... to FIRE them. But the common man, the soldier? he gets thrown in jail. If soldiers thought that the only penalty they would get for refusing and resisting was to be fired (discharged) there might be more doing it. On the other side of the coin, if elected and unelected officials thought that they themselves might be imprisoned for the rest of their life for starting wars, maybe there might be less doing it.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 27, 2004 23:49 PM
It is my assumption that the GC will be broken in a conflict, even though that is a bad thing. I do not see the contradiction between wanting the CG upheld and expecting another outcome. ""The GC is a law for "practical purposes"; it is not a theoretical law so I don´t understand your point."" A law is purely theory before application and enforcement. Where is the contradiction between having laws and expecting crime ?

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 27, 2004 23:38 PM
Baby, The GC is a law for "practical purposes"; it is not a theoretical law so I don´t understand your point. "Thus i called it a strategy" and...? "The difference is between what I think they SHOULD do and what i think they WILL do." This does not "fix" the contradiction at all, Baby.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 27, 2004 23:21 PM
"( and do net tell me that bombing cities, killing civilians and wounded enemy "soldiers" is a combat situation)" No ! I did not tell you that. Thus i called it a strategy. " "I do not understand if you try to say that the GC is apliccable in Iraq or not.I hope you say "yes it is apliccable" because there is not a single legal argument against it." AND "We cannot misunderstand the concept of Army with War Crimes" My point about the GC ( wich is relevant for warcrimes ) was for practical purposes and not legal or theoretical ones. The difference is between what I think they SHOULD do and what i think they WILL do.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 27, 2004 22:28 PM
Baby, I do not understand if you try to say that the GC is apliccable in Iraq or not.I hope you say "yes it is apliccable" because there is not a single legal argument against it. Yes, bombing cities and commit war crimes is an strategy of Rumsfeld and all the gang but it involves the GIs so I´m not sure what is the point of this comment. Sure, you are referring to the "pre-sign up" moment in all this topic but you cannot say that a US soldier who does not want to bypass the Geneva Conventions is not naive and at the same time say that to enlist in the US Army and not be aware of the "war crime foreign policy" is naive, because these soldiers are the same persons ,Baby; before and after the sign up. This is contradictory in all the sense of the word. We cannot misunderstand the concept of Army with War Crimes (even if during the past these have been synonyms in many cases) because the next step will be to ban the Geneve Conventions and Rumsfeld and the rest of war criminals in the world would have "free game". You can read (if you haven´t done it yet) Chomsky´s article about the draft posted today.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 27, 2004 21:46 PM
Greetings Wandering C. " the GC is quite strict and not practically apliccable in all combat situations" Of course this includes Iraq. As well as other conflicts. " ( and do net tell me that bombing cities, killing civilians and wounded enemy "soldiers" is a combat situation)" No that is a strategy as i am sure we both agree on. "If you have said that a soldier who does not want to bypass the Geneva Convention (and this is the point in Iraq right now) is not naive, why you keep your original comment?; I cannot understand it." I referred to enlisting in USArmy.This ofcourse could be widened to include most armed forces. (wich is a sidetrack when discussing action taken after enlisting, i agree )

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 26, 2004 23:20 PM
Please read again Paul´s article and go to the links provided; and tell me/us if you think that the opinions of these people regarding this issue are naive. As I have said, I´m not a fan of the Army and I´m sure that I have few things in common with these people but I agree and even support them if they are brave to rebel against the criminal orders of a Gov´t wich uses the GIs as "war dogs" in order to start a new Colonial period in the world. As Paul has said, my reference to his Orwellian "Powers" is just a joke; I had to edit my comment because I copied and pasted wrong and as a result of that the original comment was not clear.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 26, 2004 23:17 PM
Baby, nobody tries to "win an argument" just to focus the discusion and, honestly, saying things like " the GC is quite strict and not practically apliccable in all combat situations" confirms that you divert the dicusion because we are not talking about "all combat situations" (as you call them), we are talking about THIS illegal war in Iraq ( and do net tell me that bombing cities, killing civilians and wounded enemy "soldiers" is a combat situation) and how the US soldiers approach this issue, but it is ok if you want to go 6 or 7 posts back and start again the same discusion. If you have said that a soldier who does not want to bypass the Geneva Convention (and this is the point in Iraq right now) is not naive, why you keep your original comment?; I cannot understand it.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Street, Paul at Dec 26, 2004 22:11 PM
I want to second jokerman's comment about taking inspiration from resisting soldiers and acknowledging that nobody knows more about their situation on the ground then they do. The left should listen as well as tell. Rumsfeld would like us to think he knows the troops' situation because he made a special Christmas visit to a mess tent but he's already gone and back behind his safe war-master walls. Baby the "orwellian" powers WC refers to have to do with my technical ability to edit the blog posts and expand comments past 1200 characters...it's a joke I introduced.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 26, 2004 21:59 PM
Wandering C I divert ? A small comment became focus of your misapprehension. "You try to divert" is a nonargumentative statement. Ellude the main point ? No, but neither do I want a misunderstanding to "win" an argument. Lets get back to the main argument. You say G.Is have right to refuse breach of geneva-convention. That is so but the GC is quite strict and not practically apliccable in all combatsituations wich brings me back to those 3 lines that brought such uproar. Term "Concervative" is pointless in your context. Jokerman. Sorry for coming across as smart. I refer you to WCs deference to Streets "orwellian" powers as a way to accept those different aka "smart". Sorry for calling recruits naive and it was not what you discussed. You discussed actions possible by enlisted personell in current condition. I blame thsi shift on fucus on my unhealthy appetite for history and reflection

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Servo, Tom at Dec 26, 2004 15:11 PM
baby, the point of the above post is this: you are coming across as a type of person who perhaps unknowingly gives yoour audience the impression that you believe you are smarter than the average member of teh working class, and therefor, they need to listen to you to become 'educated" about their lives, when the fact is THEY ALREADY KNOW.the soldiers on the lines alredy know the war is unwinnable..... they already know they are being ordered to do things that don't jive with orders or at least ideas of right and wrong. the last thing they wish to hear is someone who says "you are naive (or stupid or blind)". the soldiers are the most knowledgable of teh situation on the ground, and it should become apparent to everyone that their voices are not being listened to in washington.they are in many ways leading the resistance to war, and indeed, are on the front lines of the anti-war movement. we shouldn't be giving them advice, we should be taking it from them. we shouldn't seek to be their inspiration to act, the actions of those who actively resist this war through desertion, refusal to comply, etc should be inspiring us.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 26, 2004 15:09 PM
Since I haven´t got Paul´s Orwellian "Powers", I have to edit my last comment: "Bwong, "For argument's sake let's assume it is wrong for the soldiers not to fulfill the contracts they signed. Let's say this is wrong and irresponsible"; the GI´s ARE fulfilling their "contracts" when they refuse to participate in this illegal war and commit war crimes. There is not a clause wich says that US Army soldiers have to bypass the Geneva Conventions; we cannot accuse them of not fulfilling the "contracts" if the Gov´t is using the "contracts" in an illegal way and with bad faith in order to use the US Army as a Colonial Army. jokerman326, I agree 100%, that´s the reason why I think Baby´s point of view is quite conservative in this discusion.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Servo, Tom at Dec 26, 2004 14:52 PM
workers have an obligation to educate themselves....... hmm. okay. so baby, when will i see you outside any of the slaughterhouses in illinois educating illegal-immigrant workers about how they are being exploited, overworked, and treated worse than the animal they are cutting up? which books would you recommend to a 21 year old woman from guanajuato so that she will read them and come to the conclusion that she is a wage slave? please remember that she most likely does not speak english.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 26, 2004 14:30 PM
Bwong, "For argument's sake let's assume it is wrong for the soldiers not to fulfill the contracts they signed. Let's say this is wrong and irresponsible"; the GI´s ARE fulfilling their "contracts" when they refuse to not participate in this illegal war and commit war crimes. There is not a clause wich says that US Army soldiers have to bypass the Geneva Conventions; we cannot accuse them of not fulfilling the "contracts" if the Gov´t is using the "contracts" in an illegal way and with bad faith in order to use the US Army as a Colonial Army.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 26, 2004 14:28 PM
Ok, Let´s get the things clear: Baby, you try to divert in order to justify your arguments. I´m not going to repeat all the things I´ve said; so you can keep eluding the main point: we are not talking about what a GI should expect after the sign up, the point is if after the sign up a soldier has the right to not bypass the international law, and of course that he has the right to do so. This is not a moral discussion at all, it is a legal one and this is the reason why duty is such an important concept, but you prefer to focus on the "pre-sign up" knowledge of the soldiers, I do not because this is irrelevant: It does not matter what a GI should expect before he/she enlisted because he/she has the right to not transgress the Geneva Conventions whatever his/her thoughts were before he/she enlisted.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 26, 2004 05:33 AM
Lets repeat: If you join USArmy. You should expect to participate in killing in breach of international treaties. Indirectly at least.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 26, 2004 04:42 AM
Wandering C. Yes. War can be split into subcategories just as hair. The war in Afghanistan is "legal" In Iraq "illegal" though the execution of the occupation in Afghanistan by Nato is illegal as the occupying power does not fulfill its duty towards the occupied. Yes, we have to agree on time of percieved naivite. You mention a person not naive for wanting to uphold international law and i agree. I mentioned a person enlisting as naive if no war was expected and will gladly include breach of treaties in this. These wiews-statements dont collide. I agree with the right to object against warcrimes. You critisized my wiew of a soldiers duty. I had not mentioned duty and write this as response at wich point you write that I should use it ? "it is wrong for the soldiers not to fulfill the contracts they signed" Quote:Bwong A good point of argument. Just dont misconstrue my statement in that direction.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Gammon101, Bwong at Dec 26, 2004 01:13 AM
For argument's sake let's assume it is wrong for the soldiers not to fulfill the contracts they signed. Let's say this is wrong and irresponsible. But would that be rather trivial comparing to the much greater wrong of participating in an immoral war??!! It is kind of absurd to focus on whether one should honour a contract while much greater stakes are involved. Suppose you see someone dying in the street whule you're driving. You stop the car to help. When the cops arrive they give you a parking ticket for stopping where you shouldn't be.Hopefully most of us can see that the police has its priorities upside down. Faust signed his soul to the devil. If he could find a way to cheat the devil and get away I say more power to him, even though normally cheating is supposed to be wrong. I will leave the legal fine points to the lawyers, but the moral issue seems to be very clear.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 25, 2004 22:30 PM
You keep using the term "war" as a general concept but this is not a correct use: there are legal and illegal wars (this could be another discussion) so a I will not call "naive" a person who does not want to transgress the international law and the Geneva Conventions. The "nasty situations" as you call them are inherent in any war but this is not the point( as I have said many times); duty is not referred only to the moment of the sign up, it is projected over the years of service so when a soldier recieves an order to commit a war crime or bypass the International law and he/she refuses it you cannot tell him/her: "you are in the US Army, son, you are supposed to commit war crimes, if not, why the hell you enlisted?". Rumsfeld and all the bunch want a Colonial and Criminal Army but US citizens and of couse the soldiers must rebel against this conception.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 25, 2004 22:29 PM
Baby, You keep eluding the main point: we are not talking about what a GI should expect after the sign up, the point is that if after this the soldiers have the right to rebel against orders wich transgress the International Law. You have said that you don´t use duty as a concept, well, you should use it because it is highly important in this issue: duty is the term expressed to define the orders that the soldiers are expected or requiered to do by legal obligation; there is no legal obligation for a soldier to commit war crimes or transgress the International Law (this could be an interesting legal discussion in order to determine how are the US Army soldiers expected to act under the current situation and I´m sure that some Lawyers are working on it, maybe Paul could give us more information)...

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 25, 2004 21:31 PM
Yuletides WC :-) I say that when a person signs their new emploer will EXPECT them to do as told. No MUST in it. I do not use DUTY as concept. but cause and effect is clear. Join army and you might find your self in a nasty situation. USArmy fights every decade and this should be known beforehand thus retrospection should be unneccesary. Example: "What i am at war ? But i just wanted to join the army !" That is indeed naive. As per law: International law permitted attack on Afghanistan but not Iraq. Nuremberg45 is recognized and a trial in US or Haag based on illegality of current war would be interesting.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 25, 2004 13:40 PM
I´m not a fan of the Army but this is not what are we talking here.You are trying to say that when a person signs up he/she must do everything said by the Gov´t because it is his/her duty, and if they do not agree with the criminal policy of their Gov´t you call them "naive" because they must knew this before they signed up. I do not agree with your "retroactive" conception of "duty" and I find it quite conservative (and of course It is against the basic principles of any law).

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 25, 2004 13:39 PM
Baby, I cannot understand your comment: you think US Army is more likely to go to "war" than any other country but after that you say that US Army is a Defense Army (?). This is a really contradictory argument if you do not believe in the (ilegal,false and criminal)"preventive defense" doctrine of The Pentagon. The point here is not to discuss if the GI´s have to fight in the "wars" but wich are these "wars" and how are been falsely "created". This is a Colonial/criminal conception of an Army and there are many historic examples (as you probably know) of how the working class soldiers are used as "war dogs" for the corporations with interest in the third world. You try to elude the main point here: the soldiers/citizens have the right to rebel against a Gov´t who does not respect the International law and as a result of that orders its troops to exterminate a country(ies) and commit war crimes.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 24, 2004 23:29 PM
PS Jokerman. I still think it is naive but think i see reasons for reaction against my statement. LETS END THE COLD WAR RETHORICS

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 24, 2004 23:25 PM
Dear Paul S. I stand corrected. However, workers also have an obligation to educate hemselves. ( Despite the fact, most rebellions etc have been led by burgoise identifying with those that suffer ( Same old story of haves and havenots ) ) Dear W. Child USArmed forces are more likely to go to war than any other defenceforce ( Exept 3worldcountries in a permanent state of war ) Dear Joeblogs56 You are right ! In addition the division between europe and US in nato ment your troops were mobile and ours not. ( Explaining current powerpolitics serving int. cap. on both sides of atlantic ) The percieved neccesity of propaganda during cold war caused much of present day US nationalism and the european stance of debate is a product of that more than any inherent trait or concious effort. PS I am scandinavian, but knew about the education incentive. I also know that UScitizens make more money and have a lower standard of living than us. Appart from that i look forward to learning more in times to come. Happy Hollyday !

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 24, 2004 21:07 PM
joeblogs56, I´m not trying to set up a dichotomy (at least that was not my intention ), just show how some leftists try to evangelize instead of create a common aim that is necessary these days. The tradition of the "old" left is a good experience and is necessary but there is no need to use the Kropotkin doctrine (just like an example/exaggeration) as a guide to all the actions. I´m sure that you know some examples/guys of this. Anyway, I´m almost sure that we agree so this comment is unnecessary.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Servo, Tom at Dec 24, 2004 20:45 PM
Hey Paul, I didn't see your post to baby before I made my reply. I guess we pretty much posted the same thing, but thinking back to the time of my enlistment, i vividly remember that the idea that our government was *ever* the bad guy, and would *ever* use our troops for anything but as a last resort in a defensive war, was simply non-existent among teens of all backgrounds,which back then (85-86) made the working poor families perfect targets for military recruiters. so many of us were of above average intelligence, with acceptance letters to big-10 universities in hand, but no money.simply put, I never met any rich kids in the army, but i met many at NIU. go figure.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Servo, Tom at Dec 24, 2004 05:59 AM
Are the young enlistees naive if they believe they have the power to opt-out of fighting in wars that are not justified?perhaps, but then again, does the bush administration *really* want to say "you are required to fight in all wars, justified or not, legal or not, righteous or not!" When I enlisted, I don't remember hearing "gee, i hope they don't use us to kill and maim innocent folsk around teh world." The very idea our government did anythign like that was unthinkable to us, so there was never any doubt that we would be used only as a last resort. Of course, now we know better, and wish our teachers and community leaders had stressed more of the reality of the world than the spin. If that had happened, then maybe we might not have been so "naive." Unfortunately, the very same peopel to wag their finger and say "they joined knowing they would have to fight" are generally the same people who wail and moan when someone tries to teach the truth of us eceomic/foreign/military policy.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 24, 2004 02:06 AM
I apologize for the use of "vision": that´s a really bad translation to english of what I was thinking when I was writing the comment. What I was trying to say is that soldiers are not the private Army of the oil corporations; GI´s relatives (and of course the GIs) have the right to not participate in this invasion, and in my opinion their "duty" is to do not participate in it. There is no shame in it, I do not think that any of the GIs enlisted to increase the incomings of Halliburton, so there is no reason to follow Bush and all the gang in their crusade for a new Empire/Corporation. "conscientizacao", this is what is needed now in order to stop this madness. Maybe the Fundamentalist Pastor who wrote to you wants to enlist and go to Mosul to fight the "Saracens"; I do not think so, it is better to send the working class people and he will continue in his church trying to "sell" them that they are dying for their country.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Street, Paul at Dec 24, 2004 01:21 AM
WC I do not know Baby's "vision" (big world view) from that comment. I think I recall that Baby (he or she may chime in tell us) is writing from East of the Atlantic and so may not know about all the socioeceonomic and related cultural processes at work in the creation of the predominantly working-class armed forces and the backdoor military draft here in the US. Another problem with Baby's argument in my opinion is that it tends to divert us from the critical fact that some GI/GI family war resisters are opposing the war/occupation because it's WRONG and they refuse to participate in an in fact illegal and in their view immoral imperial operation. That's very different than just trying to get out of the duty for which you supposedly signed up.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 23, 2004 23:10 PM
Paul, I agree, some leftist writers/thinkers (and I´m talking about Europe too) are wrong with their elitist behaviour: to talk about the "pure" left doctrine during the present situation in the world is useless, the point is to try to focus the big issues and fight against them; the different thoughts of the people who do it do not matter at all if the aim is the same, for example, end this neocolonial war. This is an old problem in Europe (maybe joeblogs56 can back up me here): to talk about Bakunin/Kropotkin is a good historic exercise but I found it pretty useless if you want to change the things right now: that is the reason why I think your approach is more useful and realistic. I do not agree with Baby´s vision: sign up does not give a right to the gov´t to use the troops as colonial/Halliburton Army

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Street, Paul at Dec 23, 2004 22:37 PM
Baby, please keep socioeconomoic status/class in mind as you bemoan "the naievete" of people who signed up. You have to understand the troops come from relatively disadvantaged backgrounds and are told they will get college tuition assistance and that good jobs for people with just high school degrees have been getting shut down in this country for three decades at least. And there's very few people in their famiies, schools, and churches and maybe none in the mass media telling them what they need to know about the dark reality of US policy. More importantlly perhaps, nobody or almost nobody is encouraging them to find out for themselves and to act upon what they learn --- and it it's never a pretty story ---- about "What Uncle Sam Really Wants. " I do have technical capacity to subvert the 1200 character limit and can not pass that on, and I notice that I shouldn't use it as it tends to slow the blog down so I will do like others and just break up comments when I wish to transcend the limit The great Latin-American educational theorist and teacher Pablo Friere wrote in support of what he and others called "conscientizacao," which Friere's translator defined as "learning to perceive social, political, and economic contradictions, and to take action against the oppressive elements of reality" (Friere, Pedagogy of the Oppressed, 1994, p.17). I like the linking of learning and acting one word and think I probably should have mentioned this word in the original post.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Street, Paul at Dec 23, 2004 22:31 PM
The domestic policy differences are pretty obvious (the vicious Social Security privatization is one example) and worth more than just a dime especially to disadvantaged and working people. Are there overlaps? Of course - big time. But the differences are not to be written off. This is how a very smart left historian who wrote me from Australia (but is from the US) describes the Bush phenomenon to me: "potential fascism - neo-fascism...a new form of it, with earlier key factors --- military foreign policy, police state domestically, possible one party rule via the executive despite elections, and quasi-religious nationalism as state ideology." Later I may blog a shocking pro-war rant I received from a Fundamentalist Pastor --- quite a document --- to give some admittedly small sense of how intensely noxious this quasi and in some cases fully religious Neocon nationalism really is. If the aforementioned historian is right, and many people whose opinion I respect think he is, then there's no avoiding the need to build a united front with all kinds of people (including parents and GIs and GI families) who want to save and expand what's left of democracy in the world's most powerful and dangerous state

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Street, Paul at Dec 23, 2004 22:30 PM
Kerry like his fellow Neoliberal Clinton was terrible and people can review old debates on why I argued for voting "for" him (really against Bush) without illusion. US presidents are not all enitrely the same as some leftists sometimes seem to suggest. The differences matter. Clinton's Neoliberalism (with the evil Treasury Department at the strategic helm) versus the Bush cabal's neo-conservatism (leading with the evil Pentagon), very possibly moving toward neo-fascism, is not an irrelevant distinction. Clinton sought hegemony via economic clout, the other through sheer military dominance and of course Bush's vision is informed by no small measure of frigtening military messianism and is tied to a truly dangerous Fundamentalist constituency....ctd.

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By Organum, Baby at Dec 23, 2004 21:58 PM
Joining the USArmed forces could lead you into combatsituations. It is a pity this was unclear at point of signing contract. What naivite.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 23, 2004 21:50 PM
Paul,sure, but that does not explain the contradiction between the poll results and the election results: obviously, you know it better than me, but I think the situation could be different if the voters had "pushed" more against the war and other issues; I mean, I do not think that Kerry was better than Bush but in that situation I would have vote for Kerry, Why?, because I do not see any solution with Bush, maybe neither with Kerry but American people knew what was Bush and wich "policy" would made in the future. A change in the democratic conciousness of the people has to start by these small dichotomies. This is the reason why I think that, in the end, is all about common sense and racional thinking and not moral thoughts. OK, I´ll stop right now because I do not known how to elude the 1200 words limit. You should share your "powers" with us Paul.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Street, Paul at Dec 23, 2004 21:01 PM
Shame on me for not originally including contact information on organizations soldiers and their families can contact to develop effective opposition to the war/occupation. I used my Orwellian blog powers to re-write part of the above essay, including references to and contacts for IRAQ VETERANS AGAINST THE WAR annd MILITARY FAMILIES SPEAK OUT. On having kids, that's a bit of a diversion issue in this context but..ok... it's a double-edged sword. It's harder to tell your boss to go to Hell --- and all bosses should be regularly told to go to Hell ---when you've got young ones to feed, clothes, and educate in a savagely unequal and uncaring neoliberal/capitalist society. And more time in the masters' moronic labor market and workplaces is less time writing antiwar poems, blogs, essays, books, songs, liberating billboards, organizing demos and unions and community based organizations and teach-ins and parecons and so forth. But it can also be very inspiring and quite educational as joeblogs suggests. For good portion of humans, even radicals, it's just a fact of the life cycle and I don't think you'll get too far writing off people who happen to have procreated. Wandering Child, you know don't you that Kerry was firmly committed to maintaining the imperialist occupation of Iraq.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Child, Wandering at Dec 23, 2004 11:30 AM
After reading the poll results I wonder if during the last Election many Americans were on holidays out of the country. Do know the american people that the decisions related to all these issues (education Vs defense, nuclear test ban,global warming,International Criminal Court,UN, Iraq policy/bombing,...)depends on the election results (I´m not talking about Bush Jr/Kerry "dichotomy", I´m referring to the election process and political/democratic culture of the average citizen)?. I don´t think (and maybe nobody agree with it) this contradiction is related to Moral or parents - chidren biology (send your children to the war "a dangerous place to be" is not a very protective decision), but to a lack of education, democratic culture, and of course, common sense. It seems that the election process is some kind of tv show wich does not affect the real life of the citizens (both americans and not americans). I agree with Paul that many things can be done to end this situation, but the best oportunity (the election) has gone away and sadly the "pulling back would make us look weak” kamikaze policy is the Bible in the White House.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Dec 23, 2004 06:03 AM
I bet you don't have children, Paul. Neither do I, for that matter. But having children seems to change people deeply. They seem to be more willing to let the corporations and government do evil things, as long as everything remains fairly stable. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it has nothing to do with anything. But a lot of the things that progressives worry about and consider important seem to be of little concern to parents raising kids. If you ask me, parents raising kids are quite conservative, generally. It's hardwired biology stuff, I would guess. As for how we can move into the future, I don't have any solutions, but taking into consideration parents with kids, that would have to be a major factor.

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Re: "There's Nothing You Can Do"

By Organum, Baby at Dec 23, 2004 03:57 AM
Soon after J.negroponte arrived onstage a few bombs went of in syria close to the iranian and canadian embassies. A few days ago 60 people were killed in those holy cities by "bombs" Asumption beeing that sunnis bombed shias since USA never could do such a thing. Those 20troops died by rocket and it seem to me a response and an escalation. Accidents will happen and for some , "there is nothing you can do"

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