Check this out on the Apartheid debate:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpjQEvmtNdk

"In S. Africa, the ANC and others had not declared a state of war."

 

False. The ANC was a violent militant group trained by, among others, members of the Communist Party of South Africa.  They conducted attacks that were called "terrorist" by the government of South Africa.

SGTR

You start off by atacking Justin for his ("your") analogy failing. But his post states that he feels that the analogy does fall short. He then uses the point as the start of a discussion on the Isreal-Palestine situation.

Apart from that you seem to be suggesting that criticising the policies of the Israeli State is equivalent to prejudice against all Jews as a people.

This is also covered in the blog. It also equates to your own view of aggression against Israel as being perpatrated by 'Arabs'.

You can state your case for Israeli Defense without throwing the racism around.

don't do to your arab brothers for which you wouln't want the same happening to jewish brothers.

And you know about military operations how?

SGTR,

Don't understand. No one is "anti-Jewish" here, whatever that means. I myself am Jewish, and I'm certainly not "anti-Israel," whatever you want that to mean.

It is not necessary, in the course of a state protecting its citizens, to have complete control over an "enemy" population; that only ensures an infinite cycle of violent reprisal and does nothing in the long term to protect anyone.

Again, the Apartheid analogy falls short.  In the West Bank and Gaza the PLO, Hamas, and others have declared a state of war.  You are asking that a hostile enemy should be allowed to roam free to continue hostilities.  You are saying that the Israelies have no right to protect themselves.  No other people are held to this standard. Hence, the charge of anti-semitism.  In S. Africa, the ANC and others had not declared a state of war.  Therefore, blacks should have had the right to free movement.

 Further, in S. Africa, blacks were citizens.  In the West Bank and Gaza, the Palestinians are not Israeli citizens. If anything, the Palestinians are Jordanian and Egyptian citizens.  Even Egypt and Jordan don't afford them free movement.  Why should Israel?

I simply find it so strange that anti-Israel/anti-Jewish activists never say "Palestinians should stop waging war."  But I guess that makes you guys the bigots you are.

When we speak of ''apartheid,'' it should be made clear that the subject is not Israeli society but certain policies that stem out of the occupation of Palestinian territory. Within Israel proper, it's inaccurate and unfair to claim that there is a system of apartheid; the West Bank is another story. Someone wrote that the S. Africa example is not so instructive because that apartheid was based on racist dominion and that policies that seem apartheid-like in the West Bank, for example, are based on ethno-religious displacement, expulsion etc., not necessarily racism. Even if it were racist, that does not condemn all of Israel and Israeli society.

Stands taken in an anti-Israel pose can easily bleed into an antisemitic one, as Mr. Podur points out; no doubt true. Hopefully the ideal of being pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian will someday cease to exist in many minds as a contradiction.

So let's say, for arguments sake, that what you say is true. 

Why do you single out Israel as opposed to all the other Arab countries?  Is a country of 8 million causing problems for 300 million Arabs?  Are the records for the Arab countries "human rights" better than Israel?  If you were to objectively compare Israel to what surrounds it, Israel would come out on top every time.  Yet, Israel is the bad guy? 

I find it very strange that you are clamering for Israeli internal reforms.  Seriously, what is your motivation?  You are implicitly blaming Israel for the regions problems.  That sir, is bigoted.

And if you think that Israel has only achieved economic sucess because of the U.S., you clearly  are unaware of the tech and medical industries in Israel. 

Interesting news: Canadian authorities in their muddleheadedness are "upsetting Israeli authorities" over "immigrant absorption"...

Way to avoid the thrust of the problem boys - that the Arabs want to kill Jews and will stop at nothing, even statehood. 

Instead, you simply want to protest the Israeli economy that supports the Palestinian Arabs.  Let's face it, Israel is the only functioning economy in the middle east - and it has done so without oil.  If you cripple the Israeli economy you will harm those you want to help who recieve welfare from Israel because lord knows the Arab countries don't give a shit about the Palestinians and aren't willing to give them aide. 

By demonizing Israel, the worldwide representative for Jews, you are being a bigot. 

How come "free Palestine" signs are never directed towards Jordan or Syria?

Hi Kelvin. From the UK you raise an interesting point, one that I think is relevant to Canada also. The reason Canada (and the UK) are so close to Israel isn't because of Israel but because these countries (Canada & UK) want to demostrate their closeness to the US. A very important way to do that is to support Israel, since each distinct country that supports Israel breaks the possibility of diplomatically isolating Israel. Which means, as you say, that trying to internationally isolate Israel from a country like Canada or the UK means trying to break the "special", and subordinate relationship these countries have to the US. Which is an important thing to do regardless...

Seeing that you're erasing comments, try this one on for size.

 The reason your apartheid analogy fails is because the Arabs have been in a state of war with Israel, based on its Judiasm, since before 1947.  There is a long history of unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jewish civilizans within the sovereign borders of Israel that DID NOT result in retaliation.  Those attacks came from sovereign Arab territories.  When those territories came under the control of Israel, those attacks did not cease.  Thus, the state of war by the Arabs against the Jews - based on their Judiasm, continued. 

What you are in effect saying, by claiming Israel is an "apartheid state," is Israel should allow peoples within a territory it controls to continue their acts of war. And in those acts of war, Israel should be passive.  This is completely absurd and defies all logic and reason.  May I remind you that the PLO was created PRIOR to 1967 - when there was NOTHING to liberate! 

So while you may caution others of treading too closely to anti-semtism,  that is exactly what you appear to have done yourself.  You are in effect saying Jews are not allowed to protect themselves, they should allow their sworn enemies to continue with their war.  This is a standard you do not apply to anyone else but Jews.   It is therefore why you can be charged with being an anti-semite yourself.