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Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Chris Spannos at Jan 13, 2005

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Last night, a cold, dark icy night, at the Jewish Community Centre in Vancouver, 25-30 activists joined together to peacefully protest the new Israeli Ambassador to Canada, Alan Baker and Israeli war crimes. uploaded image
Mr. Baker's position against the National and Human Rights of Palestinians is well known. He has justified war crimes and daily massacres committed by the Israeli Occupation Forces against Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Baker also served in the Israeli Foreign Ministry as a Legal Advisor where he was a top-ranking member of the legal team appointed by Sharon's government to prepare the case against the International Court of Justice's (ICJ) ruling over the legality of Israeli's Apartheid wall.
On January 26, 2004, just four days before ICJ proceedings on the legality of the wall began, Baker said this in an interview with the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, a pro-Israel lobby group: “Israel will say that the whole question should not be dealt with by the Court. We won't go into the substantial questions of whether the routing of the fence is permitted or not permitted, or legal or not legal. We are just going to deny the jurisdiction of the Court and the propriety of the Court taking up the whole issue.”
Last July the ICJ ruled that the barrier being built around the West Bank was illegal and should be pulled down.
“The International Court of Justice (ICJ), principal judicial organ of the United Nations, ruled that ‘The construction of the wall being built by Israel, the occupying Power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law'. We believe that the wall must fall as it represents a form of apartheid against the Palestinian people” said Vancouver StopWar coalition member Derrick O'Keefe
Below are photos of the protest organized by the Vancouver StopWar Coalition in solidarity with the Vancouver Palestine Community Centre. uploaded imageuploaded imageuploaded imageuploaded imageuploaded imageuploaded image

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Abuafak, Abuafak at Mar 04, 2005 02:35 AM
RobinHood you have one might Uneducated view of the Israel--Arab conflict and "Stolen Land" "illegitmate Israel" and that ""Even the Biblical Justification Fails"""" (tho I am not advocating Biblical justification.. there's plenty enough without it) """In addition as I pointed out the EUROPEAN immigrants that took over Palestine have absolutely no connection to the ancient descendants if Isaac and Jacob."""" These are ALL 100% FALSE statements .. that perhaps you'd like to document or debate.. as I am quite ready to do so.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 26, 2005 06:02 AM
RobinHood, don't patronize me. I've made it clear that it is peace that I desire. I've made it clear that all the things you've listed are the things I want to see an end to. But in your condemnation of these atrocities (which I have ALWAYS recognized and oppposed) you gave the impression that the (final) solution to these problems was the dissolution of the State of Israel. That's not the solution.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 26, 2005 03:54 AM
Now Hesed, tell me that you are willing to acknowledge the huge crimes of the Israeli state against the Palestinians, that you are guilty of ethnic cleansing, terrorism and bigotry. Tell me that you support Israel to remove the barrier, dismantle Maale Adumim, Ariel, Emmanuel, etc., fairly settle the refugee crisis by agreement from BOTH sides. Tell me that you will renounce your racist policies that oppress Palestinians inside Israel. This will BEGIN to give you a bit more credibility and honorability in the eyes of many who read this blog. Until you are ready to admit this (for a start) - until then, let's be honest - you are a transparent bigot.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 26, 2005 03:49 AM
Additionally, what Israel presently wants is complete surrender to their demands, which, as anyone can plainly see involves giving up at least 60% of their remaining lands (West Bank and Gaza - Gaza is NOT being returned, only the settlements are being dismantled, not the occupation), relinquish control of their airspace, resources and virtually everything else that comprises a viable state, including the cantonization of the territories into chunks of disconnected pieces, and all of which is designed - let's be honest - to force them to leave the lands to the Jews. These acts constitute a slowed-down form of ethnic cleansing, which in reality never stopped since before 1948. Israel continues to kill an average of 5 to 10 Palestinians daily and wound tens. Now, Hesed do you have the courage to condemn these acts and tell me that you support the complete and total pullout of Israel from ALL of West Bank and Gaza to beyond the Green Line, dismantle the illegal colonies such as Maale Adumim, Ariel, Emmanuel,etc., remove the barrier and settle the refugee problem.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 26, 2005 03:38 AM
I and most others with a conscience prefer a binational state in place of an apartheid one, and don't believe in "special' rights for Jews over Palestinians. If this to you means the "destruction" of Israel then by all means I would like to see it destroyed and replaced with a state that has moral value.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 26, 2005 03:37 AM
Hesed, You are acring as though both sides are equally at fault. It is Israel that invaded Palestine, stole the land and expelled the native population. It is in violation of numerous UN resolutions and in violation of the judgements of the ICJ and others. It is a racist entity that does not give equal rights to all of its citizens. It continues to illegally occupy land and is continuing to build colonies on it. All of this has been condemned by virtually every legal body in the world. Its only ally is the US - it relies on it for political, legal, economic and every other kind of support. Additionally, as CMZimmermann said, I have not read anyone talking of "destroying" Israel (whatever that means). I, and in my opinion the majority of people who believe in equality despise the idea of the "Jewish State", which by its inherent design is a racist, supremacist state- just like Iran and Saudi Arabia. cont.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Jan 26, 2005 01:16 AM
Dear Hesed, I am not quite sure from where you are getting this notion that arguments are being put forth for the dissolving of the state of Israel--at least in the discussion here. Your insistence that both sides make concessions is troubling. What concessions can the Palestinians possibly make? They have nothing to concede; they are the victims of the victims. Israel, backed by the US government, holds all of the cards. What concessions has the Israeli government made? Rather, what concessions have actually been put into practice? Robin Hood is correct when he points out that the Palestinians are made to appear as the rejectionists. Take a hard look at the historical record, take a look at the actual territorial maps, have a look at what honest observers have said and are saying about the situation, take a look at the history of UN resolutions and the voting records.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 25, 2005 21:35 PM
RobinHood, I'm not trying to defend the indefensible. Your statment of: "Why don't you show some courage and condemn Israeli terrorism against the Palestinians as acts of murder" I do and I HAVE. If we're talking about the withdrawl from Gaza and the West Bank, I'm all for it. If we're talking about the end to the security fence, checkpoints, murder and incarceration, I'm with you. But if you're talking about the end of Israel proper being a sovereign Jewish State, then you and all your Islamo-fascist friends are on your own. I want to help Palestinians as much as anyone else, but not at the expense of destroying the only little piece of land on this planet the Jews have. That's not justice. You talk as if there is going to be some kind of absolute justice on this matter. Well, there isn't going to be...welcome to the Planet Earth. Everyone who wishes to see and end to the CRIMES on BOTH SIDES is going to have to make some concessions in the interest of PEACE. I suggest that everyone who wishes peace should reconsider the idea that Israel proper should be dissolved as a Jewish State because that concession isn't even on the table for negotiation.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 19:24 PM
In addition, the fraudulent 2000 Clinton/Barak lie must be exposed because the Zionists attempt to portray the Palestinians as the rejectionists, where the truth is that it is Israel tha has been rejecting Palestinian self-determination. The Saudi plan of 2002 was rejected by Israel because it calls for withdrawal of Israel to pre-June 1967 borders. The Clinton/Barak offer wanted to impose on the Palestininans a plan that would forever destroy any hope for a viable Palestinian homeland - and this on top of the fraudulent Oslo processes which undid decades of activist work and UN resolutions calling for Israel to leave illegally occupied lands. Presure must be applied on the US to force Israel to dismantle the apartheid settlements and remove the wall and withdraw ot beyond the June 1967 lines. The right of return must be addressed in some way and a full apology with substantial reparations must be the first step in a genuine peace process to build trust that Israel did so much to destroy.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 19:18 PM
The problem I have is that some people try to defend the indefensible. Israel is a reality - the entire Arab world has accepted this reality. The problem now is to get Israel out of the occupied territory and expose the Zionist attempt to rewrite history by flagrant misrepresentations of what took place - such as the non-existent "Arab orders" over the radio in 1948, the "there are no Palestinians" falsehood, the inability of the Zionists to distinguish criticism of Zionism from authentic anti-semitism, and other abominations. The fact is that the illegal occupation of the Palestinians land must end - there is no way anymore to return the bulk of their ancestral lands - but all must be done to prevent further atrocities and disposession. The apartheid wall, racist policies and continued ocupation must be ended.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Jan 25, 2005 19:03 PM
The earlier 'discussion' of sovereignty is entirley one-sided. We tend to think of sovereignty as some sort of sacred, untouchable right. 'We are a sovereign nation; mind your own business.' This sort of thing. Central to the social contract theories that are at the core--fortunately or unfortunately--of democratic theory is the concept of sovereignty. The other side of this concept is that there are situations in which a sovereign nation (just as an individual within a democratic society) forfeits its sovereignty or at least its sovereignty is greatly impaired and called into question by the actions and policies of that nation (I am not talking about imperial interventions here). This is to say that because a nation is sovereign does not mean that that nation can do whatever it wants inside its own borders. Similarly, an individual is free to do what she wants in her own home, (as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others). There is a limit to this freedom. For example, she could not justify the fact that she witholds food from her children and tortures them by maintaining that she is free to do what she wants in her own home.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Jan 25, 2005 18:55 PM
After having followed this exchange over the last weeks, I am retracting my initial defense of Hesed's initial posting. At the time, I was giving Hesed the benefit of the doubt. I interpreted Hesed's use of these statistics as a strategy to show that the 'official' facts churned out by a certain worldview do not correspond to that 'official' worldview. Anyway, all of this talk about a people's historical right to land and a nation's sovereignty is slightly misguided. Those of us critical of Israel are not arguing that Jews have no right to this land or that Jews should be eradicated. It is the case however, that Israel has no right to the occupied territories. This is an illegal occupation. continued

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 25, 2005 18:50 PM
I think some of you are too hang up about motivations. Whether Hassed thinks it is necessary to give the palestinians their due because of self serving security concerns or righteous indignation over the mistreatments of the Palestinians to me is not important(at least not the most important) as long as the right ACTION is taken. I think therefore it is counter productive to brow beat someone like Hassed and make him feel defensive simply because he doesn't share some of your views. It would be difficult to have a dialogue if you only talk with people who think like you. BTW, this idea that an action only counts if it is undertaken with the right intention is a very Christian concept. In Judasim "good work" does count regardless of intentions,so donating to charity is in itself a good act even though you may do this because you want to look good.But in Christian theology what is in your heart is more important than what you actually do, so you may as well keep your $500 if you only want to donate so you can get a tax write off.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 25, 2005 18:49 PM
Now I am not in the position to speak for Hassed. But here are my observations. He is no Chomsky but he is not Yakov Bok either. Like it or not, there will be no peace in the ME and no justice for the palestinian if Israel does not cooperate(in good faith). Israel is more likely to act in a manner constructive to meaningful diaglogues if more Israelis think like Hassed than Yakov. That is the bottomline.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 25, 2005 18:47 PM
"Your logic (as I perceive it) that we should turn a blind eye to atrocities and massacres just because we are not the victiim group does not seem very honorable to me." Robinhood No, this is not my logic. I have said here and on other blogs that we should support Palestinian's struggle for self determination and a JUST peace in the ME. By a just peace I mean a fair deal, not the kind of sham, Bantustan offer by Israel. I aslo said we should condemn Israeli atrocities. However, I don't think it is helpful to try to rewrite history. The state of Israel is here to stay. There is no meaningful diaglogue if we don't recognize this fact. In the same way, there can be no meaningful diaglogue if we deny the history of the Palestinians(like Yakov Bok does)

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 18:31 PM
Further, I did not say that the Jews should "move back to where they belong" - check my posts. I think that the Jews should move to WHERE THEY CAME FROM until it is feasable to find another home without dispossessing the natives. There is a long parade of nations in a diaspora that don't have a state - such as the Roma, Shan, Tigre, Yao, Moros, Lurs, Igorots, Homosexuals, Political Radicals and many others - who by the virtue of human decency should not be allowed to declare a state by perpetrating ethnic cleansing.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 18:21 PM
I am Jewish myself and I am in a 'position' to discuss a "state" that putports to stand for all the Jews in the world. If I see injustice, such as in the Sudan, Rwanda and Israel I feel compelled to speak out against it. Your logic (as I perceive it) that we should turn a blind eye to atrocities and massacres just because we are not the victiim group does not seem very honorable to me.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 18:19 PM
I don't think that the Palestinians want a theocracy either - like you said, bwong they are the most secular peoples in the ME. Some factions do want this, but they are in the minority. The "transformation of Palestine into another "Islamic State"" is mostly fabricated by Zionist propaganda. Plain facts show otherwise. The truth is that the Jews want a state with only Jews, damn all else - and everyone should just accept this because they say so. For Israel to be secure it seriously address the injustices - it aready is a rogue state - but it has the potential to become an extremely dangerous nuclear messanic timebomb - if the US decides to throw it into the drink with the rest of the ME. This fact should no be taken lightly.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 25, 2005 18:14 PM
"If I was alive during the US's extermination of the natives I woould oppose that too and would not fall for the "chosen people" rhetoric of the invaders" Robinhood Well you were not. But did you "move back to where you belonged" having recognized the fact that the U.S was found on theft and masscres? Apparantly not. So I don't think you are in a position to tell the Jews to move back to where they belonged.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 18:14 PM
No bwong, I didn't say that you said that. I made that statement towards my own sense of justice. Sorry if I was unclear.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 18:13 PM
I don't think that a semantics game is in order here. The peoples that have lived on the land for generations have the right to continue to live on it - an elementary truth that is supported by every international law and just elementary human decency (by the same decency that we agonize over the Jewish holocaust - remember?). The problem is that the situation is far from "rational", therefore it's impossible to have a "rational" discussion until the fundamental injustice has been addressed.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 25, 2005 18:13 PM
"Then should we stand by and allow atrocities take place while they are happening? If every state was built on theft and massacre, don't people who have an ounce of humility have an obligation to oppose such things?" RobinHood When did I say that? Apparantly you only read the first paragraph of my post.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 25, 2005 18:03 PM
But the bottom line is, we the human race is puny and insignificant in the grand scheme of things. The land does not "belong" to anyone. All man made legal and political fictions are just delusions of granduer. The Planet has been here long before the first ameoba and hopefully will be around long after we go the way of the dinosaurs(if we haven't blow it up pre emptively)Life is a miracle(even though I think God is BS) we should get along when we are alive.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 25, 2005 18:02 PM
It is moot and stupid to argue about stories and fables written 3000 years ago. First of all the bible is about as historically accurate as Greek mythology. But even if it were true that the Jews once ruled the ME thousands of years ago,which was highly unlikely, so what? The Romans used to rule the whole world. Humans migrate and demographics change constantly. We were all Africans once. A people who were alledgedly displaced 2000 years ago cannot make an equaivalent claim with those who were kicked out only 60 years ago.Too much have happened in the intervening years. BTW, I am not sure if Hessed is right that the Palestinians necessarily want a "moslem state". They probably don't if that means a theocracy. The Palestinians are the most seculear people in the Middle East.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 17:57 PM
bowong, Then should we stand by and allow atrocities take place while they are happening? If every state was built on theft and massacre, don't people who have an ounce of humility have an obligation to oppose such things? If I was alive during the US's extermination of the natives I woould oppose that too and would not fall for the "chosen people" rhetoric of the invaders.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 17:54 PM
And... "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99. If Hesed rises to the minumum moral level of acknowledging what Israel has done then there can be rational dialogue. Could the Jews in 1939 Poland have "rational" discourse with the Nazis?

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 17:53 PM
I think that Hesed should acknowledge tha the land is stolen. Here are some quotes from David Ben Gurion: "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.)

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 25, 2005 17:50 PM
I don't think RobinHood's inflamatory rhetorics helps in any meaningful dialogue. Sure Israel is a illegitimate state found on theft and massacres, but which state is not?Last time I checked ALL states are found on blood and the sword(and trickery) with NO exception. Yep, even "peaceful" Tibet was ruled by ferocious warrior monks. I am the first to agree that Zionism is hopelessly flawed and self serving, it is not worst than any cherished founding myth of any nation on earth. They are all self delusional garbage. While we must speak out against the cointinued Israeli oppression of the Palestinians and support the right of the Palestinian people for self determination, it is unrealsitic and unjust to tell "the Jews to move back to where they belonged". Israel is a reality and a whole generation have grown up since 1948. Isreal is their home.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 17:46 PM
And the simple fact remains and you, Hesed know it - the land of "Judea", "Samaria", etc. are names used only by the Jews themselves. This is land that belongs to the Palestinian Arabs , Christians and indeginous Jews (as opposed to the European immigrants) and nothing will change this. You know it. Most of the people that I spoke to refuse to even acknowledge that they are occupying another peoples. This is how far they have sunk in their Zionist wet-dream. Would you be against the ancient Romans "returning" to Palestine because "the land is theirs forever" because they say so? If you disagree with this you have no knowledge of human morality.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 17:40 PM
Jews have a right to a homeland, but not in the form of a racist and apartheid state such as modern "Israel" - for the same reason that a "White" state, an "Islamic" state or a "Christian" states are all inherently racist and undemocratic because they are not states of their citizens but of an exclusivist ethnic gorup, similar to the Nazi Aryan philosophy. If the Zionist Jews in Israel insist on retaining their atrocious and abominable supremacist dungeon they must be prepared to take the heat for it. If they want this abomination then that they should have create their "state" without displacing anyone. The rhetoric about the Jews deserving"special" treatment because of the hideous Jewish holocaust does hold up to elementary logic. The Gypsies have no right to establish a "state" in the middle of Hungary and drive out millions and murder thousands of residents and the Iroquois have no right to drive out residents of New York State to create an apartheid regime of their own. And don't scream about Palestinian "terorrism" - Israel was founded on extreme terrorism and the main terorrist leaders became "Prime Ministers" and others.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 17:25 PM
Hesed, you are an apologist for hideous and racist atrocities because they were perpetrated by the Jews. Why don't you show some courage and condemn Israeli terrorism against the Palestinians as acts of murder? You are a moral coward and your arguments ring hollow throughout the world. Everyone knows that the land that Israel is built on does not belong to it, and even the "bible" justification fails. Israel is no more legitimate than if the Norwegians declared an exclusive apartheid "state" in Illinois because the Vikings lived there beween other groups several thousand years ago. In addition as I pointed out the EUROPEAN immigrants that took over Palestine have absolutely no connection to the ancient descendants if Isaac and Jacob. The sooner you realize this the better. And don't give me the bit about Jews being an ethnic group as a basis for their colonization - why are they taking in Peruvian Indians and Ethiopian converts just to populate Palestine and displace the rightful residents? You are hypocrite and you know it. Israel is a reality, I will give you that but it is ILLEGITIMATE.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 25, 2005 09:59 AM
Joe, you bet! When someone like RobinHood comes here and states that unlike Muslims, Jews have no right to a land of their own...I'm definately going to take a harder position. Until anti-semitic people such as RobinHood recognize that even the lowly Jews deserve a place on this planet to call their own, then my position and the position of all Jews will only harden. What else is there to do when faced with such oppressive race hatred? If they think that the Jews are just gonna lay down and be destroyed, they have another thing coming.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 25, 2005 06:13 AM
RobinHood writes: "You have to realize that Israel is an illegitimate state, having formed by theft and massacre, and deep inside I suspect that you know this." Yeah, so is America, Canada, Mexico and all of South America. But guess what? Native Americans aren't getting Manhattan back either. Israel belongs to the Jews, it's always belonged to the Jews and the Jews are never giving it up. The sooner everyone gets used to that idea (because you really have no other choice) the sooner there can be peace. If death and destruction is what you want, then by all means, keep trying to force the Jews off their land. In case you didn't get the memo from a few thousand years ago, Israel is land of Judea. You and all your racist, anti-semitic rhetoric will never change that. You wanna do some good? Then stop encouraging Palestinians to go after the unattainable, it just exacerbates the whole situation.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Apartmentbuilding, Robinhood at Jan 25, 2005 00:46 AM
Hesed, You have to realize that Israel is an illegitimate state, having formed by theft and massacre, and deep inside I suspect that you know this. Secondly, what are Jews? Are theya religion or an ethnicity? If they are an ethnic gorup, as you say, then why are they accepting Ethiopians and Peruvian Indians if they convert to Judaism? In addition, the so-called "Islamic States" such as Saudi Arabia and Iran are racist in their very nature as is Israel. The European immigrants to Palestine are not the descendants of the ancient Israelites (the biblical argument to the claim that the land is theirs). The land does not belong to Israel and if any justice is done, which is doubtful, the Jews will go back to where they came from and leave the stolen land to their rightful inhabitants. And you are a racist who internalized a double standard because you believe that Jews do not have to respect the same moral standards as Muslims. Israeli aggression, occupation and extermination of the native population is what is fueling the resistance of the rightful owners of the land upon which the ILLEGITIMATE state of "Israel" is built on. Chew on that you racist tool!

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 21, 2005 05:59 AM
Likewise, Jews don't have the right to dictate the affairs of Muslims in Muslim States. I don't know what's MORE FAIR than that?

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 21, 2005 05:57 AM
Bwong, thank you very much. I thought it was offensive too. I don't know how by my recognizing the undeniable right of Palestinians to their own land and self-determination and likewise for the Jews makes me Hitler? Though it's my experience that when people who only have ONE IDEA begin to recognize their own flaws, they generally resort to name-calling. So far I've been called a racist and now compared to Hitler. What intellect around here! OvertEmigma, If you want to prove someone like me wrong, you better come up with something a little better than just calling me Hitler. If you can't see how facile your analogy is, then perhaps you need a few history lessons. Lightweight. As for the sentence of mine that you quoted: "If a Palestinian wants an equal say as to how Jews conduct their affairs then they should become Jews and apply for citizenship." ...is nothing more than a recognition that for Israel to REMAIN a sovereign DEMOCRATIC Jewish state, then the population would have to REMAIN Jewish. Does this compute?

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 21, 2005 02:11 AM
"No, the only solution now is for Arabs to accept Israel as their neighbour and normalize relations; and for Israel to stop massacring and expanding its borders" That is basically Hesed's position: a two state settlement. If I understand correctly Chris is advocating a single democratic bi national state. This may be what things should have been if you can rewrite history or what things will be in 100 years. But I don't think this is acceptible to either the Jews or the Palestinians in any forseeable future for the reasons that Hesed pointed out. Ethnocentrilism is a fact in most parts of the world, whether you like it or not and the Israeli Jews are not the only guilty party. BTW, your rhetorical device of comparing Hesed with Hitler for pointing out the obvious is very offensive. The two state solution(with a viable Palestinian state) is optimal, realistically.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 21, 2005 02:00 AM
But let's pause to look at reality. The U.S is holding all the cards. U.S troops can leave tomorrow if a large enough number of Americans make that point strongly enough. But guess what? The sad fact is the majority of American people will not press for a withdrawal unless either 1)more GI's are coming back in body bags,or 2) the occupation become so costly that the U.s economy is going down the toilet,or 3) there is a draft,or 4) all of the above. These are all the wrong reasons, granted. But the right reasons simply don't have the mass appeal that is required to influence policies. It is not that Americans don't know 100,000 upward Iraqis are killed and the number is rising. What do they do? They relect Bush!

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 21, 2005 01:59 AM
" want an end to the violence, but I want both parties to realize that the end should come not because their people are dying, but because they are killing people. There is a difference in these perceptions - one, the former, implies that as soon as they find a way to commit violent acts without losing their own people, then the violence will flare up again. " In principle(that is, morally)I completely agree with you. But what is the likelihood of that happening? Chris brought up the Iraq war to highlight his disagreement with Hesed. He said that American deaths are inconsequential comparing to the Iraqi deaths. Morally I totally agree with his sentiment.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 21, 2005 00:34 AM
Hesed: "So why is it that people who are for Muslim sovereignty are AGAINST Jewish soveriegnty?" Generalization. Gross generalization. It is my pleasure to prove you wrong (better start getting used to it). I am for Muslim sovereignty and I am also FOR Jewish sovereignty. About 57 years ago (1948), the UN under pressure from Zionist terrorism performed a grave miscarriage of justice: They usurped the land from the Palestinians and gave it to the Jewish population. That is done, and there is no going back. Take the land away from the Israelis and returning to the Palestinians is not the answer - two wrongs, do not make a right. No, the only solution now is for Arabs to accept Israel as their neighbour and normalize relations; and for Israel to stop massacring and expanding its borders.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 21, 2005 00:24 AM
...ctd Hesed: "If a Palestinian wants an equal say as to how Jews conduct their affairs then they should become Jews and apply for citizenship." Gutten-tag, Meihn Fuhrer! You almost sounded like that 20th century mad man who almost eradicated the Jewish population! Aside from the obvious flaws in your logic, do you realize what you are saying? How many Jews converted to Christianity just to be spared from Hitler's cleansing? yet, you are proposing almost the same thing? Chris has it right when he compared the similarities between Israel and Nazi Germany. The fact that many Israelis are willing to visit upon the Palestinian population the same atrocities that were visited upon them is a testament to the veracity of Chris' claim. Very powerful and extremely disturbing.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 21, 2005 00:20 AM
Chris/Hesed: Chris: "Fine as far as it goes, but because Israel is in “the position of a centralized power”, as you say, we need to be more specific so we don't promote a narrow minded, self interested, nationalist and racist motivation for achieving our goals..." I totally agree. There is a part of me, the compassionate part of me, that wants to see an end to the killings (on both sides) so desparately that I am almost ready to make a deal with the devil (Read: Bush). But, upon reading Chris' point, I have to rethink that. I want an end to the violence, but I want both parties to realize that the end should come not because their people are dying, but because they are killing people. There is a difference in these perceptions - one, the former, implies that as soon as they find a way to commit violent acts without losing their own people, then the violence will flare up again. I think this is what Chris means when he says we should not end this for selfish reasons, but humanitarian reasons. ...ctd

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 20, 2005 21:46 PM
How many Muslim states are there? Dozens? No one tells them they don't have a right as Muslims to determine their own destiny. (except for the Imperial fascist neo-cons here in America, that is) How many Jewish States are there? ONE! So why is it that people who are for Muslim sovereignty are AGAINST Jewish soveriegnty? Why do they believe that Jews are not entitled to the same rights as other people? The only answer is that they don't view Jews as equal humans. I'm not the racist, here.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 20, 2005 21:33 PM
Joe, I didn't bring those up because there is nothing to negototiate on those subjects between Chris and I. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. I DO wish for the '67 borders to re-apply. I'm against the existence of checkpoints and the fence too. I think Palestinians are every bit as entitled to their own representative state as any other people. Just as Jews are entitled to be represented in a Jewish State. Neither should be FORCED, as Chris would have us believe, to live under the societal laws of the other. They are both unique peoples who wish to retain their religion, heritage, tradition and beliefs in a society which reflects them. Btw, I was in America 83/84, all of 21 years ago back when our government didn't even recognize that there was such a things as AIDS. But that's changed, hasn't it? I put your experience of being in Israel in 83/84 in the same realm. Sorry, 83/84 are times long-gone.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 20, 2005 12:14 PM
Also, you seem like you are an OK guy who, like me, wants to make things better for people who have it rough. Unfortunately, you aren't doing Palestinians any favors by advocating for them to be Israeli citizens. So do you really want to help them, or do you just want to feel like a good person? Personally, I'm tired of the violence on both sides. I would like to see Palestinians have their own representative state and live in peace beside the Israelis. You know, calling me names like racist doesn't make it so. Nor does it make your argument any more lucent. If anything, you're the one who is out of touch by imposing your own value system and perception of "how things should be" onto people you clearly do not understand. Whether you recognize it or not, Jews and Muslims have different ideas on how they would like to live their lives. Thinking that they will abandon those beliefs to appease your world view is so very "Western Hemisphere" of you.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 20, 2005 12:03 PM
Chris, it's not racism. Muslims have their beliefs and would prefer to live in a society that nurtures and accomodates those beliefs. By the same tolken, Jews have their beliefs and would likewise prefer the same. Israel is a Jewish state, so why should a Jewish woman be forced to completely cover her skin as if she were a Muslim? Comparatively, why should Muslims have to suffer the offense of seeing an exposed woman if they prefer not to. THERE ARE CULTURAL DIFFERENCES and out of respect for each unique culture, those who prefer to live immersed in that culture should be free to do so without oppression. I don't know why you feel you are in a position to force your belief that these things don't matter onto people who clearly believe otherwise. Arrogance, I suppose.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 20, 2005 06:35 AM
If a Palestinian wants an equal say as to how Jews conduct their affairs then they should become Jews and apply for citizenship. Just as the Jews do not tell the Egyptians how to run the affairs of Muslims, Palestinians do not have the right to determine how Israel runs the affair of Jews. As far as I am concerned, your argument about them being second class citizens is moot. They aren't citizens AT ALL. I'm all for a Palestinian state, THEY'RE OWN STATE. And once they have their own state, I would be opposed to anyone who tried to force the new Palestinian state to accept Jews as citizens.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 20, 2005 06:33 AM
Chris, I get what you're saying. I also would like to see what is in men's hearts change. But you can't dictate what people feel. That's why you NEED POLICY. OK, as far as citizenship goes. Israel is a Jewish state. The Jews, just like Muslims or anyone else, have a right to self determination through democratic process. The problem is, Israel is surrounded by Muslims. If Israel allowed Muslims equal citizenship...then guess what? IT WOULD NOT BE A JEWISH STATE ANYMORE! Because Muslims would ELECT MUSLIMS! Just like any other sovereign nation, Israel has the right to determine who is a citizen and who is NOT. So Palestinians should give up the idea that they are participants in the affairs of the Jewish state because they are NOT, nor ever will be, nor SHOULD BE. They ARE NOT JEWS and Jews have a right to live the way they decide.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 19, 2005 22:26 PM
Those are the consequences of the data I've cited...peace. Contrarily, if the goal IS the utter destruction of Israel as a means to end the oppression of Palestinians, then you are corrent in saying that this data is inconsequential. So I ask you, what is your goal? If you want peace, then let's start looking at the misconceptions which are at the root of the conflict and correct them. If your goal isn't peace, but rather the desire to just see Israel eliminated, then frankly, I wish you would come right out and say it.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 19, 2005 22:25 PM
Let's make some distinctions. Chris you write: "In other words Hesed is making the case that "Israel's policies hurt Israel". Fine, but it's almost inconsequential." No, it's not inconsequential in the least, not if the goal is to convince Israelis that its policies DO NOT make them safer and in fact make everything worse for everyone involved. It's not inconsequential if the GOAL IS TO END THE OPPRESSION. You see, that's the argument which Israelis believe give credibility to their policies...they think that this is what needs to be done for security purposes, which I've demonstrated is false. Another distinction. Israel is NOT Nazi Germany. The goal (at least mine anyway) IS NOT the utter destruction of political Israel as it was with political Germany. THE GOAL IS PEACE. In order to for there to be peace, behavior on BOTH sides needs to be addressed. Israel, having the position of a centralized power, needs to officially change it's policies. In order to do that you need to convince Israelis that the "credibility" of their "terrorist" actions against Palestinians as a means of actualizing their own security is a myth.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Jan 18, 2005 23:08 PM
Dear Hesed and Spannos, I just read your 'exchange', and must say that Spannos' reaction to Hesed's original post is not justified. Hesed wrote the following, 'Being a Jew, I've had quite a few conversations with other Jews about Israels actions since Bush's "hands off" policy and the consequences. I've heard a lot of this, "Israel is much better off, now that it's hands of free to do what they must". Is it? I wonder? So I did some research.' I interpret this to mean that Hesed, after hearing others regurgitate the 'official' line that Israel is better off, did a bit of research within the parameters of this official line to see if this is the case. Hesed used 'official' statistics to counter an 'official' view of the situation. Of course, Palestinian deaths are not mentioned because these are not even considered within the 'kosher', so to speak, 'official' worldview of those with whom he has discussed the issue.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By K, A at Jan 18, 2005 04:40 AM
I agree with Yakov that the use of the word massacre is really out of place. It's obviously true that many innocent palestinians have been killed by the IDF, but the word massacre implies that Israeli soldiers walk around murdering civilians on purpose, which is a very distorted picture of the conflict. Also, many of the responses here are very judmental of a person, while it is only beneficial to critique a specific point of view. It is very important that we in the left learn to converse logically and patiently, and not simplify everything to absurd extremes.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Enigma, Overt at Jan 17, 2005 22:02 PM
I think that there was a general misunderstanding on both Hesed's and Chris' part. Hesed, after reading your post, I was left with the same impression that Chris was left with and responded to. Perhaps, in the expedience to make your point, you may not have been as clear as you should have. In any event, your abrasive language requires you to issue an apology as much as Chris owes one to you for misunderstanding your post. There is no need to get heated over misunderstandings - there are plenty of other reasons to get heated over. After all, Bush is still in control of America. ;)

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Gammon101, Bwong at Jan 16, 2005 21:44 PM
Hey Spanno, Having read your exchange with Hesed I think obviosuly you misfired. Now the more you try to make excuses the more rediculous you look. Why is it necessary for Hesed to quote Palestinian casualty figures while (s)he was simply making the point the Israel has not been "safer" under the current hardline policies? In your post you accused Hesed of approving Isreali state terrorisim while denying the Palestinians the right to arms struggle. This accusation goes well beyond disagreeing with the premise of his data. I certainly don't get that impression from reading Hesed. BTW, blowing up civilians on both sides is terrorism, whether you call it "arms struggle" or "counter terrorism". C'mon. Have some class and apologize.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 16, 2005 21:33 PM
What's crazy is that we agree, you still just don't see it. The data I cited shows that the increase in attacks against Israel is a direct result of ISRAEL'S harsher policies of oppression towards Palestinians. You write: "The implication I took issue with was that palestinian deaths were left out of the equation" Well of course the Israeli Government isn't going to count the lives of the people who blew themselves up or the people they kill with their policies. What do you expect? But that doesn't mean I agree with that mentality and it was unfair for you to assume that.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 16, 2005 08:02 AM
I think an apology is in order.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 16, 2005 07:46 AM
I wonder how it is you completely missed the point I made? You know what I think? I think you read the first line of my post that identified me as a Jew, made up your mind RIGHT THERE and then didn't even BOTHER to look at the data or the point I was trying to make with it. It's either that or the possibility that you suffer from some mental deficiency that makes you incapable of making logical conclusions from presented facts. So which is it? Are you stupid? Or do you just not like Jews?

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 16, 2005 07:36 AM
Yo Spannos! Find one fuckin thing that I wrote that re-affirms your assumption: "State terrorism is okay for you" I never said or inferred any such thing. All my post indicates is that there have been MORE attacks against Israel since it has implemented it's harsher tactics of Palestinian oppression. I bring this up as a means to contradict those who believe that grinding Palestinians into dust is an effective method of Israeli defense. Which, by the numbers, clearly illustrates is categorically FALSE.

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 14, 2005 20:37 PM
Deaths, of course, do not include the terrorist. So as you can see there have been TEN TIMES as many attacks between 2000-2005 as there were in the five years leading up to 2000. I'm aware that there are other circumstances which may have influenced this. Regardless, the claim "Israel is much better off now" is still a load of crap. Even in 2004, where we see a drop in attacks, the actual number is still FOUR TIMES higher than ANY of the WORST years leading up to 2000. So is Israel better off? This information was obtained from the official website of the Israeli Government, Ministry of Foreign Affair. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/

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Re: Vancouver Protests New Israeli Ambassador to Canada

By Hesed00, Hesed at Jan 14, 2005 20:25 PM
Being a Jew, I've had quite a few conversations with other Jews about Israels actions since Bush's "hands off" policy and the consequences. I've heard a lot of this, "Israel is much better off, now that it's hands of free to do what they must". Is it? I wonder? So I did some research. January 22, 1995 up to November 1, 2000 there were: 12 Total terrorist attacks resulting in: 121 Deaths November 2, 2000 up to January 5, 2005 there were: 125 Total terrorist attacks resulting in: 570 Deaths Year by year: 1995: 4 attacks 39 fatalities 1996: 4 attacks 59 fatalities 1997: 2 attacks 21 fatalities 1998: 1 attack 1 fatality 1999: 0 attacks 0 fatalities 2000: 4 attacks 15 fatalities 2001: 35 attacks 92 fatalities 2002: 42 attacks 232 fatalities 2003: 22 attacks 124 fatalities 2004: 16 attacks 58 fatalities

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By Bok, Yakov at Jan 13, 2005 23:55 PM
"He has justified war crimes and daily massacres committed by the Israeli Occupation Forces against Palestinians..." Daily massacres and occupation forces? Come on, stop the rhetoric. No massacres have taken place and the use of "occupation force" shows ignorance to how and why Israel is in the West Bank and Gaza. Try to be a bit objective, will you please?

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