Venezuela's Choice
Venezuelan election commentary is still in flux - reactions are still trickling in. Still, so far available analyses are mostly failing to address the election's most important implications.
Yes, the Bolivarian Revolution is still in the saddle.
Yes, Chavez is vastly more popular - despite being in office ten years - than Obama, now in office for two years.
Yes the PSUV has retained more support and influence than, for example, the Democrats in the U.S.
One could continue in that vein, but viewing the election as if it is a one off experience that is lost or won depending on the ballot count from electoral district to electoral district measuring assembly seats won by Chavistas and the opposition, so that the Chavistas can say - hooray, we won - or viewing it in comparison to what goes on in the U.S. or other typically top down and politically bankrupt societies, so again the Chavistas can say, hooray, we are doing better, is highly simplistic.
Venezuela is continuing an already decade long incredibly complex struggle for its future. This means what goes on in Venezuela cannot be usefully compared to what goes on in simpler settings.
In Venezuela, some wish to reassert or preserve old relations - basically capitalism, political bureaucracy, racial hierarchies, gender hierarchies - all the old crap.
In Venezuela, there is also a drive toward something new - a goal that is not spelled out and in fact in many respects barely even intimated, but that is nonetheless also clearly anti racist and anti sexist, clearly for the poor and weak, and maybe profoundly self managing.
The agents for reaction will do whatever they can to obstruct the agents for change - and the reactionaries have no scruples and plenty of resolve or resources for their tasks.
If a coup will work, give it a try. Or try a referendum. Or try an election boycott. They tried, and failed, and failed. Chavez was way too popular. So they needed another more sophisticated strategy.
What they arrived at was to subvert the Chavez government's efforts to move forward on behalf of the poor, and then to blame Chavez for failing to solve problems and better people's lives. As people become tired and doubtful, the opposition ups the ante. How can a reactionary opposition do all that? Let's count the ways.
1. Old owners subvert plans to produce for the poor and weak. They obstruct efforts at building housing and other projects in numerous ways, including just selling off the needed resources over seas, creating bottle necks, or even simply not working, or working slowly, or working poorly, on various projects. This is very effective, especially in Caracas.
2. Old police don't curb violence and theft - but instead engage in it. They become the criminal element in order not only to enrich themselves, but to create an environment of fear and anger. They even kill - to the same end. It isn't the stolen bounty that is the most important goal. Nor is it the dead victims. No, the most important goal is the assault on the social imagination. It is making people wary, fearful, and not willing to talk, organize, and participate. This is very effective, especially in Caracas, but throughout the country, as well.
3. Old political bureaucrats - or new ones for that matter - can obstruct rather than aid (as the Chavez government mandates) the emergence of new grassroots people's assemblies. The new structures are supposed to become the new government. It should not be surprising that old mayors and governors are slow to aid them, or even, very often, quick to subvert them, thus bringing local government often out of the revolutionary process and into a reactionary one. The bureaucratically oriented even on the left see popular progress as personal loss. Their obstructionism, rather than their advocacy, of popular participation is very effective, all over Venezuela.
4. Old media - nearly all of Venezuela's media - maintain a never ending assault on Chavez and the government including blaming them for anything and everything that causes people pain or worry - from crime to draught, from continuing poverty to frustration with efforts at local governance - even if, as is most often the case, it is the owners of the media and their allies who own other industries and who administrate cities and regions and who "police" the public, who are actually at fault.
5. The above fourfold strategy to obstruct, disrupt, and blame, it must be admitted, has been very successful. And it also must be admitted that the success can extend even unto impacting Chavista agendas. It can not only distort outcomes in the field in ways that block libertory changes and then undercut support, it can also infect even Chavista motives, inducing a defensiveness about and even denial of ills as well as isolation from the public in turn causing additional problems including, for example, local lethargy of government branches and resistance to admitting and thus dealing sufficiently with crime issues.
"But the Chavistas won still another showdown. How can you claim the opposition has had great success" - I can hear some reply, or demand, on hearing the above.
Well, if you look at seats in the parliament, and if you simply count the final tally of who won those, then these critics of my stance are absolutely right. There have been some losses, sure, but overall the election marks another victory, albeit a bit tighter.
But what if we look at the situation as befits judging not a simple parliamentary election but instead an accounting of sentiments in a broad and long social struggle?
After ten years of a government that seeks revolutionary transformation in the direct material, social, and psychological interest of 80% of the population, and, arguably, also in the social interest of quite a few more - support has dropped roughly 10%. Where support for the Bolivarian process should, in the past ten years have risen from about 60% to up near 80%, it instead appears to have fallen to roughly 50%. Momentum is undercut. The publics hopes decline, their support much less inclination to act, diminishes. Even the resolve of avowed revolutionaries starts to wither.
This trajectory has to be seen for what it is: a downslope to hell.
This trajectory must be reversed.
This trajectory cannot be reversed if the fourfold oppositional strategy listed earlier, and also the additional internal Bolivarian flaws of process and practice persist.
This trajectory cannot be reversed if efforts to deal with the fourfold oppositional features and internal failings proceed so slowly that their minor gains are swamped by continually growing pubic exhaustion and doubt.
The Bolivarian Revolution needs to regain aggressive momentum and wide spread participation.
The Bolivarian Revolution needs clarity as to its aims. Why else will people be energetic supporters? How else then by knowing what the revolution's aims are, and being able to adapt and alter the aims for themselves, can the public be part of and literally command the process?
The Bolivarian Revolution needs mobilization at the base of communities and throughout workplaces to attain its aims. How else can progress be gained and defended?
Nothing much can be achieved over night. But reticence to act due to not wanting to arouse stronger opposition so as to avoid serious conflict - or not being willing to see and admit the need - is a direct road to hell.
The Bolivarian idea, or one might say the Bolivarian hope, incredibly admirable, was that in a fair and rational debate with vote after vote - reason would prevail and sympathy for the public would win out. And well it would have, except for one thing. The opposition is not interested in a fair and rational discussion. The opposition simply wants to win by whatever means they can find, including obstructionism, lying, manipulating, fear mongering, and criminality. Waiting for a fair debate is suicide. While waiting, one's support is undercut or grows tired and despondent, and one's priorities and policies become distorted as well.
There comes a time when one must finally admit - however admirably much one wished to avoid the implications - that to have Venezuela undergo a truly democratic and self managing popular assessment of options and then freely and insightfully choose among those options - the opposition must be denied pride of place and practice.
The opposition can debate like all others - but they cannot own and control the only megaphone in society - its tv, newspapers, etc.
The opposition can work at producing social outputs like all others, but they cannot obstruct work by owning firms and directing them away from revolutionary agendas.
The opposition can help to govern like all others, but they cannot use governing positions to obstruct popular organizing and decision making and abuse participation.
The opposition can aid in fighting against corruption and theft like all others, but they cannot become the country's most egregious corruptors and thieves.
And even among the agents and allies of the Revolution, ever greater receptivity to the desires of masses of people throughout society, ever greater willingness to admit and correct errors rather than deny and paper them over, and ever more receptivity to widening participation, are also essential.
From outside Venezuela, admittedly having only modest connection to or information about the details of complexly developing options inside Venezuela, it does seem that to overcome reaction and to seriously pursue liberation something quite like the following steps must somehow soon be achieved as the necessary minimal basis for continuing success.
(1) The media must become democratic and public - critically insightful and inspiring - not a lapdog mouthpiece of the revolution, but also certainly not a lapdog mouthpiece of insane and venal reaction. Yes, there will be a price in rhetorical assault and real confusion around the world when the mass media are taken from venal and even criminal private ownership and turned into exemplary vehicles of public participation, education, criticism, and exploration - but this is a price that must be paid at some point - and sooner is better.
(2) Mayors, governors, and other officials throughout Venezuela, whatever their other inclinations may be, must become abettors of and advocates for popular power. Neither Chavez nor the PSUV should support candidates or elected officials rerunning for office who do not as a core element of their program and practice work hard to develop the popular assemblies of popular participation and rule, including supporting and working to implement programs mandated by those assemblies. Yes, those who lose support and then office may become overt opponents of the Revolution, but they will be far less damaging in that role than as trusted officials given power to subvert progress.
(3) Old police, wedded to reaction and engaging in crime and fear mongering - whether by action or by calculated inaction - must be replaced. If the new national police can push and teach and force local police to comply, fine. But, if not, then more aggressive steps must be taken. Are there centralizing dangers in such scenarios? Most certainly there are very serious centralizing dangers as well as a rhetorical cost in criticisms. But what must be done, must be done - and putting off acts which, by their delay make their eventual success harder, not easier, is self defeating. The solution to the dangers is to address policing like one addresses production, or health care, or anything else - not only improving it beyond abysmal, but thinking through what would be exemplary, in accord with self management, etc., and implementing that.
(4) The old owners must have their property appropriated for control by the relevant workforces. Their compensation should be that which the society sees as morally warranted - which is to say, at least in my view, enough to maintain a viable income level while seeking new economic involvements. Owners who have sabotaged Bolivarian agendas for the poor and weak, however, should arguably get nothing. Again, any transfers will lead some losers of land or property to overt opposition - but that overt opposition will do far far less damage than the same people's quiet opposition undertaken as heads of workplaces, rather than mere citizens.
(5) The revolution also needs to look again at itself. Not all current problems are a function of overt external opposition. Some problems reside within, albeit perhaps largely induced by the long obstruction and threats of reaction, but by this time also rooted in on going and self sustaining habits of the present. So in addition to dealing with the above four opposition obstacles, there must be a new level of practical commitment to rectifying stale or misguided practice by incorporating criticism from and the desires of the broad population into the actions of local government, of the PSUV, and of the national government as well.
The above steps are not the revolution.
The above steps don't bring plenty to the poor. They don't elevate the weak to influence. They don't remove hierarchical difference. They simply remove the obstacles to seriously and steadfastly seeking those greater aims including ever growing popular participation and popular self managing control over political life and over production and allocation, and indeed over all dimensions of Venezuela's future, with new social structures and programs suited to the purposes.
But in the absence of fulfilling the above steps, more encompassing positive efforts will continue to be subverted, the public will continue feel despondant and cowed, and Chavista support will continue to atrophy.
The road to hell - or the road to solidifying and enlarging revolution.
From outside, it appears that that is the current choice.
In Brazil, when the PT and Lula won office, they succumbed to fears of reaction and violence. To avoid that calamity they settled on a path less radical and encompassing than their rhetoric had suggested they would pursue.
In Venezuela, the path has been the opposite. Threats have provoked Chavez and the Bolivarian government to move further left, not retreat to the right. But now comes the real crossroads.
To now stand pat and keep debating the opposition while they criminally subvert projects - a calculated opposition behavior that will in coming months only become more aggressive - will end in disaster.
To rear back and decide that the Brazilian social democratic route at least preserves broad political participation and avoids overt conflict, will end in disaster.






How to reform media?
By Johnson, Steven at Oct 19, 2010 21:00 PM
Surely the way forward CANNOT be doing anything with media that would strengthen the ever-present potential for Chavismo to morph into yet another case of libertarian impulses being eventually hijacked by centrally-directed bureaucratic rule. Can the cause of socialism really afford yet another failure in this regard?
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Great suggestions
By Emersberger, Joe at Oct 02, 2010 17:26 PM
Private domination of the media should not be used -only - as a talking point to refute outlandish claims that Chvistas dominate public debate in Venezuela. It should be pointed to as a major Chavista shortcoming that they have allowed public denate to remain under the control of unelected billionaires all these years. It is flirting with disaster not to do simething radical about that problem.
One way to solve this problem woud be for ownership of large media outlets to be transfered to the state, but to have the people who run it elected by the public (or chosen by lot) perhaps with some represeatatives elected by media workers - basically making it an independent branch of government.
The international press would howl that the "free press" was being eliminated, but they do that now anyway. I still come across mainstream articles that openly call Chavez a "dictator".
Mark Wesibrot pointed out that the recession in Venezuela was avoidable. Chavista fiscal policy was too conservative. Despite the global crisis Bolivia made use of fiscal policy to avoid recession. I woudl add to your suggestions - learn from Bolivia's marco rvonomic policy in recent years.
I'm not sure it is that easy to look at trends based on election results or approval ratings because the Chavez government's popularity has tracked economic performance. For example, in 2005 when he had a 71% approval rating, only 26.4% of Venezuelans said they supported socialism, only 15.5% said they supported capitalism, 7.8% said they support neither type of system, and the rest, about 50% did not answer or were undecided.
If you tracked the results of that question over the years (and maybe someone has done it) then you would have a better sense of the trends of revolutionary sucess.
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Re: Great suggestions
By Albert, Michael at Oct 02, 2010 18:56 PM
Better fiscal policy is better, I agree - but I can't really judge that. Weisbrot is a good source, though.
As to polls, well, I agree, and I don't agree. I think the government should have roughly 80% support after ten years. Okay maybe 75%. So for me, that they don't, is a sign that some things need to be done, or done differently.
Some things that I think are very much worth trying to do, beyond more specific policies, are to incorporate the population in public debate and decisions about policies and directions - with a clear picture of where it is all going - much more than now. To reduce or end the obstructionism and manipulation and otherwise detrimental actions of current media, owners, police, and also elected officials, who are not assisting or even blocking the development of popular assemblies. I have no doubt there are other issues to address, as well.
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Security Blueprint
By Small, Brian at Oct 02, 2010 01:57 AM
This article made me think of the recent DN! show on Afghanistan, War and Women. Ann Jones and International Rescue Committee camera distribution might help out in Venezuela's security situation, generate some bottom-up approaches.
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How long can a revolution last when focussed on one person?
By J, Nick at Oct 01, 2010 10:36 AM
I do not have time right now to delve into the very important work on consciousness, place and power (Michael's article is not focused on that topic anyway), but suffice it to say that while social transformation requires meaningful and sustained resistance to the constant battering of oligarchs, it also requires Freirean reflection. Chavez has shown himself to be remarkably durable, able to fight off so much that the entrenched interests have thrown him. However, why are people, particularly who support breakdown of the oligarchical structures and replacement with democratic socialism, still only able to associate the "revolution" with one man? This question points to Albert's important comment that "even among the agents and allies of the Revolution, ever greater receptivity to the desires of masses of people throughout society, ever greater willingness to admit and correct errors rather than deny and paper them over, and ever more receptivity to widening participation, are also essential." Virility is important, particularly when dealing with those who will do anything and say anything to effect one's downfall. However, combined with such virile strength must be the cultivational or humble strength to reflect, to admit vulnerabilities and mistakes to friends. Sustained social transformation can only take place when processes are there for generational transition. I think the Zapatistas and Subcommandante Marcos offer important paths forward in this way. Rather than being about Chavez, Chavistas, etc., Zapatistas have tried (with limited success I believe) to make it about the legacy of Zapata, through Commandantes who are of and from the poor, and who are men and women.
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Re: How long can a revolution last when focussed on one person?
By Administrator, Site at Oct 01, 2010 13:32 PM
You write - "Peter Waterman comments that `If, in Venezuela, around 50% of voters consider - after all these years of the Chavez Revolution - that they prefer the old corrupt capitalist and pro-US elite, then this is a reality to which Chavez and his party will have to adjust.'"
You then answer Peter..."I think this rationalist position vastly underestimates the power of persuasion, coercion, seduction and manipulation exercised by Venezuelan oligarchs. Habermas' "deliberative democracy" only works if people are allowed to and/or compelled to base their positions on reality."
Mainly, though, I would answer that there is zero reason to think that all those who voted for opposition candidates support old ways - rather, they, and also those who abstained, are just upset with how things are going - at least - and at most feel the fault for how things are going rests with the Bolivarians.
When things start getting worse rather than steadily better, and people lose faith that there is a much better place in the future - because the contours of that better place are never elucidated and therefore have no independent weight - reaction starts to make some sense, or at least dissension.
You add "I do not have time right now to delve into the very important work on consciousness, place and power (Michael's article is not focused on that topic anyway), but suffice it to say that while social transformation requires meaningful and sustained resistance to the constant battering of oligarchs, it also requires Freirean reflection."
I think that you are right that the battle to transform society is of course largely about information and allegience - which is why the problem of media in Venezuela must be addressed far more centrally than it has been. If owners disrupt programs and opposition media than convinces the public that it was, instead, government incompetence or corruption - and if policy and criminals run amuck in accord with the aims of the opposition (despite their rhetoric) but opposition media convinces the public, again, that it was due to government incompetence and corruption - and if there is, of course, also some actual government incompetence and corruption - clearly there is a problem.
But there is another related issue, as well. The Chavistas do not have a clearly enunciated vision for society. If you ask Venezuelans, even those who wildly support the project, what the aims are, the answer will be things like dignity, fairness, or even participation, equity, etc. But the public, and I even think many inside the government - perhaps nearly all - cannot explain much less have strong opinions about much less contribute to the definition of actual institutional aims, because these are unstated.
There is only so long that vague comittment to justice will sustain struggle, particularly if progress is much slower in fact than rhetoric talks about, or even begins to appear to be decline.
You continue: "Chavez has shown himself to be remarkably durable, able to fight off so much that the entrenched interests have thrown him. However, why are people, particularly who support breakdown of the oligarchical structures and replacement with democratic socialism, still only able to associate the "revolution" with one man?"
I think this is very well put. Because it notes that part of the problem is in the eye of the beholder. The reality is this - roughly. Chavez is of incredible importance to the process. It is partly because he has a tremendous facility for eliciting support - he is trusted, appreciated, etc. People do not want to go from a known and trusted leader to someone who may turn out otherwise. It is also, however, partly because he has such close military history and ties that serve to protect the whole undertaking and are very likely indespensible to it. And finally, truth be told, it is partly because he is audacious and capable and has repeatedly shown himself to be willing to change and move forward, where others display far less willingness.
Okaym that said, would it be better if the country was full of people with these characteristics and even better ones - sure. But it isn't. So he is President. And will remain so, unless things fall apart.
But Chavez isn't by any stretch the totality of Boliviarian activity. All those who talk about how bad it is one man is so central almost never look for or talk about all the mind boggling grassroots involvement that exists. They, in other words, tend to focus on Chavez as alone critical even more than anyone in Venezuela does. This is odd...
You conclude, "... I think the Zapatistas and Subcommandante Marcos offer important paths forward in this way. Rather than being about Chavez, Chavistas, etc., Zapatistas have tried (with limited success I believe) to make it about the legacy of Zapata, through Commandantes who are of and from the poor, and who are men and women."
At the risk of annoying some folks, I don't get this at all. One movement elevates Zapata, the other Bolivar. One has a commandante who seems never to be other than entirely in command - the other has a repeatedly elected president who often must succomb to other elements in society. One has been courageous and admirable, and so too the other. The biggest difference is, however, that the Bolivarian project holds federal power and is dealing with an entire complex economy, polity, and society...and bettering the lives of millions of people.
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Re: Re: How long can a revolution last when focussed on one person?
By J, Nick at Oct 02, 2010 11:59 AM
Regarding the following: "I would answer that there is zero reason to think that all those who voted for opposition candidates support old ways." This is a also very important comment. Rationalist arguments such as assumptions that people are voting their fully informed desires serve as much to mystify, in service of the status quo, as they do to examine nuance and complexity. I think such arguments are directed more at people outside Venezuela who are tempted to ask "Why should I care?" If such people believe that Venezuelans are voting their preferences, then the answer is clearly "I shouldn't care."
However, there is a troubling connection between the devaluation of people's preferences above and the questioning of people's abilities represented in this comment: "that said, would it be better if the country was full of people with these characteristics and even better ones - sure. But it isn't. So he is President. And will remain so, unless things fall apart." The Cuban leadership could say this is why Mr. Castro and his brother have been in power so long. The North Korean leadership, I am sure, also says this about their dynasty though I know of few people outside North Korea that would call them progressively transformational.
When a movement is defined through one person, it is easier to destroy or at least marginalize the movement by either successfully calling the person a devil or a kook; or killing them, putting them on a pedestal, and coopting their message.
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Re: Re: Re: How long can a revolution last when focussed on one person?
By Albert, Michael at Oct 02, 2010 14:24 PM
Nick,
Sorry I had a couple of posts under the name Site Administrator - rather than Michael Albert. I relate to the site with two browsers one for admining the pages, etc., the other for interacting as me. Sometimes I get them mixed up.
The fact that some people voting for the opposition or abstaining don't want the old ways, doesn't imply they were not voting rationally. It can mean they were rational, but had wrong information. It is not irrational to draw wrong and even self defeating conclusions based on wrong information. It can also mean, however, that they are annoyed, or upset, or angry, and trying to convey that - again either in light of accurate information or wrong information. The issue about wrong information is mainly what is the source - and what can be done about it. That is why the proposals I offered focused on curbing the obstructionism and outright sabotage by old owners, old officials, and old police - and also turning the media into a grassroots controlled, diverse and contentious but not privately held and overwhelmingly manipulative operation.
The issue of Chavez as president has zero to do with questioning other people's abilities. His history, and accumulated ties and relations with others and the trust in him, are what propel his support. That you can make a vaguely similar argument in other cases where you would reject it, doesn't mean, by analogy, that it is not worthy here. Rather, you have to look case by case.
In Venezuela, Chavez has been elected in highly contested campaigns, over and over. It seems worrisome that he might be there another term, or two, or three - and did so to me, as well.
However, when I visited and interviewed many very libertarian activists and also folks in normal jobs and walks of life, asking very strong questions about this - by far stronger than I have seen asked in any other interviews - I got quite compelling answers that convinced me that this issue was of relatively minor impact as compared to many others, like those I mention in the piece.
Chavez has been prime advocate for and instigator of creation of about 30,000 assemblies - aiming at developing 50,000 eventually - that are mandated to utilize direct grass roots decision making to govern their neighborhoods, towns, cities, states, and ultimately the country. In other words, far from Chavez being president leading toward an aggressive centralization of power into structures that would block any road toward self management, on the contrary, it has been building vehicles suited to self management and doing so more aggressively and faster than anywhere else I know of. When you couple that admittedly unusual reality, with the fact that Chavez's ties throughout society and in the army, in particular, are very personal ties developed over decades that can't be transferred to others or quickly developed by others, and are central to preventing the opposition from using violence to win - the case for him as president, even over and over, is very strong.
You point out, "When a movement is defined through one person, it is easier to destroy or at least marginalize the movement by either successfully calling the person a devil or a kook; or killing them, putting them on a pedestal, and co-opting their message."
Well, this insight, in many forms, is, honestly, not very complex. What I think you and others should realize is that Venezuelans have no problem - zero problem - understanding it for themselves. This implies, clearly, that they must see other factors as well. They see the risks, that is, and they proceed nonetheless, so they must also see benefits that they feel outweigh the risks. We sometimes instead of assuming serious rationality on for others - have a tendency to see one side of an issue - and to run with it - assuming if people disagree with us, they must not see what we see or must be irrational. There is always, however, another possibility. That is, that they are rational, and serious, and seeing what we see, but beyond that, we are not seeing something that they see. We ought to always be open to that possibility, and strive to discern if it is the case.
In this instance - and again, one has to look case by case - no one I talked with had the slightest difficulty seeing, and vocally admitting, the dangers of a long Chavez presidency, from the highest levels of involvement to folks in neighborhoods. And yet, to a person, everyone felt that the dangers associated with no term limits for their revolution, their society, and thus their lives, were minuscule compared to the dangers that would follow were Chavez replaced. And it was not idolatry speaking, or a love of central power, or just passive acceptance - or any other such thing. It was a careful and reasoned estimate of the dangers and benefits of contending options in light of each person's understanding of Chavez's ties in society including with the military, his ability to communicate to the population, his political leanings, and his trustworthiness.
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Against The Revolution, The Reality
By Waterman, Peter at Sep 30, 2010 18:00 PM
I can see no reason to consider the results of the Venezuelan election as an obstacle to the creation of a 21st Century Socialism (as distinguished from a 20th Century Russian, Chinese, North Korean or Cuban kind).
A 21st Century Socialism, if not merely a new logo or corporate re-imaging of the failed or stagnating 20th Century kind, would surely have to consider the existence of critics and opponents as normal. If, in Venezuela, around 50% of voters consider - after all these years of the Chavez Revolution - that they prefer the old corrupt capitalist and pro-US elite, then this is a reality to which Chavez and his party will have to adjust. The alternative would be to continue operating with a Manichean logic (in which there is allowance for only two positions, binarily opposed, with one virtuous and one vicious).
And what on earth this could possibly have to do with Parecon as, presumably, a bottom-up expression of radical democracy remains to me a mystery. Unless, of course, Parecon can also be a policy imposed by the Vanguard top-down, as in the case of the hypostatised Revolution in Yugoslavia.
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Re: Against The Revolution, The Reality
By Albert, Michael at Sep 30, 2010 18:23 PM
Sometimes artistry of writing, or obscurity of writing - I guess which it is is always in the eyes of the beholder - is really helpful. Other times, not so much.
And at least for me, your comment here makes no clear reference I can follow to any words I wrote - nor to anything in Venezuela, either - so I don't honestly see how I can reply explicitly to you.
If you think the suggested proposals I offered are somehow violations of what is needed for a desirable revolutionary project, or that it violates the logic of my other beliefs, okay, fair enough - but then please say how and i can either agree, or I can explain why I don't agree.
Let me give a couple of examples, as long as you have me writing...
Someone - I think probably not you - might say that to turn over control of workplaces to workers and their constituencies (consumers), thereby taking it away from owners - violates important property rights and would lead inexorably to the kinds of results you mention. Okay, if you say that, we could discuss it.
Or, more reasonably and often - and I think you might say this, I don't know - someone might say that to interfere with media is really very dangerous and could lead to a diminution or even total annihilation of dissent and debate. I tend to agree that it could have that effect - and that such steps have often had that effect. I also think leaving the media in the hands of private owners who then obliterate rationale debate themselves, is not acceptable either. So the task is to transfer the media, like transferring other units producing for society, so that they operate under social, not private, control. It is not easy, but certainly not impossible, and at the moment, very important, though also, always, a positive direction.
Or, also more reasonably and often - and I think you might say this too, I don't know - someone might say that to have the military or a national police interfere with local police forces risks a slip slide into something more or less like a kgb or stazi or even gestapo operating above all other forces in society. I agree with this concern, too, but I also think leaving the protection of the public in the hands of people who are themselves violating the public and who are also abetting criminals violating the public is not viable either. So - again, steps to correct the situation must be undertaken, with as many and as exemplary safeguards against missteps or willful abuse as possible.
And again, more reasonably and often - and I think you might say this too, I don't know - someone might say that for the PSUV to withhold support from incumbents who have failed to act on the mandate to assist in the formation and elaboration of local assemblies and failed to pursue the directives of those assemblies could lead to the PSUV eliminating dissidence internally. Again, it could happen - but there is no reason why it must. And a rather obvious additional point is that you can't have people's power at the same time as you have mayors and governors promoted for office and welcome in and celebrated who say one thing, but then do another - as in, they seek to obstruct, circumvent, or even crush people's power.
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Re: Re: Against The Revolution, The Reality
By Nack, Jonathan at Sep 30, 2010 21:57 PM
There is no question in my mind that the revolutionary process has lost some support, and this was born out by the vote.
I also think Michael is right that the way forward is through deepening the class struggle against the oligarchy, not through reaching compromises with elements of the oppostion.
The election result has, IMHO, a lot of more nuance and complexity worth noting.
On the plus side for the revolution, the opposition participated fully in the election and accepted the results. This is the second straight election they've done so. They've been forced to abandon their claims that the election process is a fraud, and have now tacitly acknowleged the government's legitimacy.
The PSUV won 59 percent of the seats in the legislature, which gives it an absolute majority which is very signficant for two reasons. First, the PSUV demonstrated once again that it dwarfs any other party (the opposition is split into dozens of parties, each with little support).
Second, is that disaster was averted. Those who follow Venezuelan politics knew it would be unlikely for the PSUV would achieve it's stated goal of a two-thirds majority. Therefore, the result was within realistic expectations of the Chavistas, if not their stated expectations.
This election could have been a disaster, if increased anti-PSUV sentiment spread from the urban centers, where the bourgoisie mantains considerable hegemony, to the rural areas, where support for the revolution is more deeply rooted. That didn't happen.
Much of the decline in support for the revolutionary forces can be traced to the world economic crisis, which caused a precipitous drop in the price of oil in 2008 through the first months of 2009, which sent the Venezuelan economy into recession after years of impressive growth. The economy has started to turn around and could be about to begin another prolonged period of growth.
Another major cause of declining support for the revolution has been the crisis with the electric grid, water systems, and other basic infrastructure. A years long severe drought, which greatly increased the frequency and length of blackouts, ended this Summer. There is also hope that the government has realized that it hasn't given enough attention to basic infrastructure and is prepared to invest more heavily.
A comparison between Brazil and Venezuela is tempting, but the situations in the two countries are starkly different. I think it's unlikely we'll see President Chavez's government ever be as accomodating as Brazil's is to the capitalist class. It's not just that Chavez is more radical, but that he still holds a much stronger hand than Pres. Lula ever has.
The Workers Party had to form a coaltion government and has never held even a bare majority in the Brazilian legislature. Also, the Workers Party and Pres. Lula do not control or deeply influence the Brazilian military, by far the most powerful in Latin America.
In Venezuela, to the contrary, Pres. Chavez and pro-revoultionary forces exert great control over the military, including revolutionary indocrtination of the troops. Most of the old guard of commanding officers have been purged. These are huge difference to anyone who knows Latin American history.
While I wish that all that Micheal is proposing would occur, there are tremendous problems, contradictions, and complexity in every area. I think the revolution has successfully defended itself in this election, and will continue to progress. Probably not as rapidly and difinitively as either Micheal or I hope for though. How rapidly will depend on a great many other things which, happily, are in the hands of the Venezuelan masses.
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Re: Re: Re: Against The Revolution, The Reality
By Administrator, Site at Oct 01, 2010 13:08 PM
"On the plus side for the revolution, the opposition participated fully in the election and accepted the results. This is the second straight election they've done so. They've been forced to abandon their claims that the election process is a fraud, and have now tacitly acknowleged the government's legitimacy."
A lot of folks are saying roughly, or even almost exactly this, including many who I highly admire and learn from, including suggesting the election is a positive outcome.
I have to say, I don't really get it.
The reason the opposition even while creating mayhem in other ways, now accepts and also even focuses on elections isn't because they believe in democracy, much less self management, nor is it because they have become so weak they have no choice. It is rather because they are feeling that they can win via elections - and they feel that way, I believe, because they feel their mayhem, and their media, and other factors, will continue to undermine support for Chavez and the whole Bolivarian project.
I fail to understand why their confidence in that regard is a positiive result, rather than an indicator, at the very least, that steps must be taken to deal with precisely the circumstances that give them such confidence. I would much prefer that they had so little appeal their only avenue was minority based - not that they think they can generate a majority.
Similarly while "averting disaster" is of course much better than suffering disaster - he not busy being born is busy dying, and in political and social struggle, averting disaster is not being born...
In every election for years now, there has been celebration even thought the margin of support drops - but, in fact, for the margin of support to not grow each time is a bad, not a good, sign.
So I have to say that while your view may be right - or not - in either case you aren't really addressing the points I raised. I am saying that the lesson of this election is not remotely that it is a sign of victory for the revolution. Rather the election reveals decline - and the decline while partly abetted by natural disaster (water/power), and partly by outside pressures (US interference) - also stems from faults inside the Bolivarian process and in its choices which make the effects of both natural and social difficulties as well as other internal impediments on change much more devestating to Bolivarian support, and, in particular, points to the need to deal with the five problem areas I noted.
Venezuelan revolutionaries - and those who comment on events there - cannot change the aims of the U.S., nor the viscissitudes of weather, nor the aims of the domestic reaction either. What they can do is clarify the aims of the Bolivarian project, or to seek its clarification, while building support for it and participation in it. And as steps to that end, and to overcomeing obstacles, they can proactively deal with issues of propery, police, old and otherwise obstructionist officials, and the media, or call for doing so. They can act to weaken and even overcome the means of conducting mayhem and manipulation on the part of the opposition - and they can do better at their own agendas - and those are the places to focus attention...
I actually think U.S. interference will now have one main purpose - to tie up Chavista thought and action in worries about invasion or other outside intervention, even as the real arena of struggle and success or failure is not a matter of U.S. invasion, but is instead, the five areas I noted.
If the five areas are addressed effectively, the opposition would not think - and it would not be the case - that it could even come remotely close to winning elections, nor would it be possible for the U.S. to do too much damage from without, much less to find a basis for intervening or stand much chance of having an intervention be anything other than a disaster. But if the five problem areas persist, or grow worse - then prospects will at best be much worse.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Against The Revolution, The Reality
By Nack, Jonathan at Oct 02, 2010 16:22 PM
With respect, you seem to have glossed over my first three paragraphs, I wrote that I agree with your thrust, including your five points. I also agree, and wrote, that the election shows loss of support.
The comments I wrote following my first three paragraphs are about other details I find relevant.
IMHO, the revolution is encountering difficulties, and some errors have doubtlessly been made, particularly regarding infrastructure such as electricity and water.
When I visited Merida two years ago, they had great water problems and some electricity outages. This was before the drought. Venezuelans were going around saying, we have so much oil, why can't they improve these things?
I remember having a drink with James Suggett of Venezuelanalysis.com, and telling him, "We can call it socialism, democracy, or revolution, but if they can't keep the power and water on, they will tend to lose support.
It's actually a matter of democracy. If you consulted the Venezuelan masses, you'll find that nothing is higher on their agenadas than water, electricity, and in the case of the poor, cooking gas.
These issues, as well as bureacracy, corruption, and crime, are among the biggest challenges facing the revolution. I think your five points touches on them well.
That's my humble and respectfull assessment of where the revolution is at.
As far as this past election, as an individual event, while it clearly demonstrated some loss of support, it was still a qualified success.
I don't think you're right about the opposition still being able to use non-electoral means to overthrow Pres. Chavez, and are thus participating in the elections as a matter of strategic choice. They have been forced to participate in elections and government,because their non-parliamentary efforts have all failed.
At this time, the oppostion has no abilitiy to take over either by military coup, economic disruption, or mass protest. They simply can't do it. They tried and failed and have the ability at this point. That's not to say that they couldn't some time in the future, if support for the government continues to decline, but for now, and the immediate future, these options are not viable for the opposition.
The Bolivarian revolution has wanted the opposition to fully participate in elections and to recognize the legitmacy of the results. They've achieved that, and that, my friend, is a victory. I think the opposition is participating in elections, not because they think they can win - I think that's wrong - but because they've been forced to,
The opposition has a long way to go before those in it, with a head on their shoulders, think they can win in a national election. They also know they have little chance of defeating Chavez in 2012, so they're pretty sure they won't be taking power by election until at least 2018. That, of course, is unacceptable to the old ruling class, but they haven't got an alternative.
Finally, I'll return to a point we agree on, that the way forward for the revolution is through deepening the class struggle and implementing more socialism and more participatory democracy. Not primarily through elections.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Against The Revolution, The Reality
By Albert, Michael at Oct 02, 2010 18:37 PM
Hi,
Not sure if we agree or disagree - hard for me to keep all the comments and folks making them, in order...but...
> With respect, you seem to have glossed over my first three paragraphs, I wrote that I agree with your thrust, including your five points. I also agree, and wrote, that the election shows loss of support.
I admit I tend to fly through expressions of agreement, and also to not comment back on them - seems pointless...
> IMHO, the revolution is encountering difficulties, and some errors have doubtlessly been made, particularly regarding infrastructure such as electricity and water. When I visited Merida two years ago, they had great water problems and some electricity outages. This was before the drought. Venezuelans were going around saying, we have so much oil, why can't they improve these things?
Well, I do think the draught was a big deal - but of course the government isn't responsible for nature - but the response is their choice. I continue to think the opposition obstruction is quite substantial - so, for example, while infrastructure going unfixed may be bad policy, it could also be hung up due to obstruction. And the discussion of say the water shortage, so people understand - and the determination of who will bear the pain it imposes - also matters of choice, but again, obstructed by the media, etc.
We agree on water, cooking gas, corruption, crime, bureaucracy, etc. Some of which is completely under control of Caracas, some very much obstructed until other issues are addressed - media, etc.
> As far as this past election, as an individual event, while it clearly demonstrated some loss of support, it was still a qualified success.
Well, I guess it really is in the metric used for assessing it. One can say I was afraid we would lose a majority of reps, or lose the vote badly, etc. We didn't - that's a great victory. Then next time one could say I was afriad we would drop to 40% but we made 45%, another victory. Then we have a sequence of victories we are celebrating while, in fact, we are losing...everything...
To me, declining support is a very very serious problem - because it should be rising support.
> I don't think you're right about the opposition still being able to use non-electoral means to overthrow Pres. Chavez, and are thus participating in the elections as a matter of strategic choice. They have been forced to participate in elections and government,because their non-parliamentary efforts have all failed.
Why does failing earlier preclude trying again and succeeding? Why does having more support for the opposition, and less for the government, mean the opposition cannot even think about what it tried earlier, but from a stronger position. Myself, I think a coup is silly strategy in any event...but that's a different matter.
> At this time, the oppostion has no abilitiy to take over either by military coup, economic disruption, or mass protest. They simply can't do it. They tried and failed and have the ability at this point. That's not to say that they couldn't some time in the future, if support for the government continues to decline, but for now, and the immediate future, these options are not viable for the opposition.
I don't know how anyone can know that - nor do I understand what it is that has happened that means they cannot even try, when before they could try - but, okay, let's not belabor that, because I think it is quite clear that they are going to use the electoral road for some time, whether because they must (as you suggest) or they think that is the better bet for a victory (as I suggest).
> The Bolivarian revolution has wanted the opposition to fully participate in elections and to recognize the legitmacy of the results. They've achieved that, and that, my friend, is a victory. I think the opposition is participating in elections, not because they think they can win - I think that's wrong - but because they've been forced to,
Well, maybe. I guess we can agree to disagree.
> The opposition has a long way to go before those in it, with a head on their shoulders, think they can win in a national election. They also know they have little chance of defeating Chavez in 2012, so they're pretty sure they won't be taking power by election until at least 2018. That, of course, is unacceptable to the old ruling class, but they haven't got an alternative.
I hope you are right - but honestly, that is not nearly enough. What I hope is that things will progress very very dramatically so all this is moot.
> Finally, I'll return to a point we agree on, that the way forward for the revolution is through deepening the class struggle and implementing more socialism and more participatory democracy. Not primarily through elections.
I think our differences are not very important compared to our agreement...
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Absolutely right!
By Nack, Jonathan at Oct 04, 2010 17:31 PM
I also really value and appreciate your perspectives, even where we disagree. Perhaps especially then.
I didn't say that there couldn't be a coup attempt, or large scale economic disruption some time in the future. I don't think they have the material conditions do try that stuff now, however, nor in the near future.
The officers in the mitlitary are solid. You saw what just happened in Ecuador. When given the opportunity to rebel, their military chose to stay loyal to the constitution. The loyalty of the Venezuelan military is much greater than that in Ecuador for a variety of reasons.
While small scale, low intensity, econmic disruptions by the opposition will continue, the opposition has been forced to abandon their large scale disruptions when it became clear that they actually weakened their support and increased support for the revolution. That kind of confrontation plays right into the revolution's and Pres. Chavez's hands. It's what the revoluton does best.
I think the opposition, led by the oligarchy and U.S., will stick with their strategy of participation in elections, while attempting to use their remaining influence to block and slow changes. IMHO, they will do this, not because they are succeeding, but because they don't currently have a viable alternative.
The oppositions electoral prospects are not good. They haven't significantly spread their support outside of major urban centers. They have little chance of defeating Pres. Chavez in 2012, as he is much more popular than his party, the PSUV. So, the oligarchy'is likely to remain as no more than oppositon in national government, while governing some local areas,
None of this is acceptable to the oligarchy. IMHO, the basic situation still speaks to the strength, not the weakness, of support for the revolution and the new constitution and poltical reality it has brought.
Still, we know that old ruling classes die hard, and even when they are overthrown by armed revolution, which they certainly haven't been in Venezuela, they maintain the capacity for a comeback in the long term future.
For the time being, I think there continues to be breathing space for the revolution. This is the time for the revolutionaires to make measurable progress on the five points you raise, and some others too. If they can do those things, then the revolution's electoral prospects will rise from pretty good to very bright.
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