Violence Begets Defeat or Too Much Pacifism?
"But remember that if the struggle were to resort to violence, it will lose vision, beauty and imagination. Most dangerous of all, it will marginalize and eventually victimize women. And a political struggle that does not have women at the heart of it, above it, below it, and within it is no struggle at all."
- Arundhati Roy
Chris Hedges has written a very aggressive attack on what is called the black bloc element of the current occupy movements. There have been a number of replies and reactions. The issues are actually not new, but have a long lineage. How do we evaluate matters of violence and non violence? What even characterizes obstruction, property damage, or aggressive or violent options, and how might folks reasonably argue their preferences?
Pacifism often comes from a religious or a philosophical stance and says violence, or even property damage, is a bad personal choice - no exceptions. Many pacifists argue publicly on behalf of political nonviolence using evidence, values, and experience. They usually respect and interact positively with those holding different opinions. In my experience, perhaps the best exemple of this type of stance was by David Dellinger, someone whose work is worth revisiting today. There are some other pacifists, however, who don't primarily use evidence, logic, and experience to argue for nonviolence, but instead assert that to reject nonviolence is immoral. Their morality/religion trumps political debate.
When adherents of a political view assert that all other actors must agree or be irrelevant, it is often called sectarianism. Agree with me or you are a political infidel. In philosophy or religion, similar rigidity is often called fundamentalism. Agree with me or you are a moral infidel or mental midget - or worse, an ally of one type of devil or another.
Here's the hard part: When a pacifist says that everyone must be a pacifist because all other options are immoral, it is fundamentalism. Lifestyle, philosophical, or religious pacifists have every right to argue that the movement should always be nonviolent. But if they do it by proclaiming they have greater morality and dismissing those who have different views as morons or badly motivated, they can't expect to be taken seriously. The same also goes for those who assert the limits of nonviolence and the merits of militancy from atop a high moral horse. Those who say disruption and violence are essential to building movements and winning change, and add that anyone who thinks otherwise is a tool of the state, are also sectarian.
So what characterizes obstruction, property damage, or aggressive or violent options, and how might folks reasonably argue for their preference?
With any tactic we can usefully ask:
-
What are its effects on those who utilize it?
-
What are its effects on those it seeks to pressure?
-
What are its effects on the those protestors seek to reach out to?
-
What are its effects on enduring movement organization and culture?
The "black bloc" side of this debate claims that tactics "exceeding" nonviolence tend to be good in that they delegitimate authority; reduce tendencies to obedience; uproot accommodationist habits and culture; inspire participation among working people and minorities; enlarge courage; graphically pinpoint protestor's anger; promote increased media coverage that communicates the movement message more widely; and also raise social costs for elites, pressuring them to relent. In their view, “cannibals prefer those who have no spines.”
The "pacifist" side claims that tactics "exceeding" nonviolence tend to be bad in that they help authority rationalize its legitimacy; increase tendencies to thoughtless individualism, amorality, and paranoia; put off unorganized working people and minorities (not to mention those unable or unwilling to participate in violent settings); curtail open discussion and democratic decision-making; obscure the focus of protestor's anger; distort media coverage from substance to bricks and fighting thereby disrupting communication to broader audiences; and also give elites an excuse to change the rules of engagement to their advantage. In their view, violence is suicidal.
The point-by-point contrast highlights the complexity of judging tactics.
Is having teach-ins, marching, rallying, doing civil disobedience, and obstructing large numbers of people the best way, or is destroying draft card files, a missile nose cone, a war-making facility, or targeted windows, trespassing, rioting, resisting arrest, or even escalating to pro-active aggression against police, scabs, or other sectors, a better choice?
To know, we have to decide which claims by advocates of different stances are true and which false, and how we regard the overall tally. A complicating factor is that we have to consider each case on its own merits. We can't we have an across-the-board, always-binding judgment, as convenient as that might be, because in some situations aggressive tactics yield all the positive affects their advocates expect, yet in other situations aggressive tactics fail to deliver any potential benefits. Likewise, in some situations aggressive tactics yield all the debits their critics anticipate, yet other times aggressive tactics minimize or even eliminate the debits. Thus there are no universal rules about abiding or exceeding non violence, and the best we can do is to assess each tactic people might opt for in each situation, seeking to maximize potential benefits and minimize potential ills. Thus, with this mindset, a person is neither black bloc or pacifist - but, instead, open about the options, careful to choose good ones, and then to implement them in worthy ways, case by case.
For example, proponents and critics of aggressive tactics need to pay priority attention to not providing authorities a rationalization to obscure the government's wrong-doing. Proponents and critics must be sympathetic to those disagreeing with them and work hard to increase democratic participation and reduce tendencies to anti-social individualism, paranoia, or passivity. They must try to find ways to increase the possibility of wide participation and open discussion and decision-making, and particularly to prevent their tactics from alienating sought-after constituencies. They must put a high onus of evidence on themselves on behalf of avoiding adventurism or endangering others or otherwise weakening the balance of power between the movement and elites, whether by action or inaction. They must raise social costs today consistently with being able to do better tomorrow. They must undertake or refrain from actions in ways that don't fracture the movement, reduce sympathy for the movement, or obscure its message among constituencies it seeks to reach. And both advocates and opponents of any particular tactic must avoid pressuring movement participants into hostile stances toward one another, rather than battling only opposed elites.
Pursuing violent tactics by disdaining participation and democracy or by wildly imagining non-existent conditions appears to be macho play-acting rather than seriously seeking maximal impact. Opposing violent tactics by equating minor disruptions or destruction with the catastrophic violence of elites looks like fundamentalism rather than seriously seeking maximal positive impact.
On the upside, when groups pay serious attention to strategic concerns so that others are aware of their motives, logic, and attentiveness - as well as of how they take into account the views and agendas of their protest partners - then while folks may still sharply disagree about choices, the dialog can be one of respect and substantive debate.
Surely we can all agree that respect and substantive debate are worthy goals. Then doesn't it also follow that having protest norms that facilitate differing groups communicating usefully is much better than having protest norms which pit differing groups against one another in ideological death matches? "Different strokes for different folks" is a good slogan, as long as we add that the different folks need to also pursue mutual concern, understanding, and empathy.
There are demonstrations in which trashing, for example, grows organically from the event's logic and intentions. An example might be clearly enunciated assaults on particular draft boards or ROTC buildings. There are other demonstrations where trashing is counter-productive and irresponsible due to endangering innocent folks and diluting the message and solidarity of the event.
Consider a massive event where those who tirelessly organized it were committed to legal marches and rallies and also to illegal but nonviolent civil disobedience. Imagine 100,000 people attend. Imagine in the first days success is overwhelming and mutually respectful ties develop between usually fragmented constituencies, (for example Green disobedients and Teamsters, Lesbian Avengers and steel workers). Imagine developing optimism is contagious. Movement participation is climbing and, targeted meetings or events are effectively disrupted.
But then the police begin to employ gas, clubs, and rubber bullets. At this point, highly organized trashers break off and attack windows and police. Afterwards they celebrate that due to their mobility and organization none of them was arrested or harmed. Perhaps these militant dissenters taunt and otherwise provoke police and then disappear, leaving others, often utterly unprepared families, to bear the brunt of the response. Do we admire more the courage of knowing folks who could easily see what was coming and escape if they wished to, but who instead used their talents to help protect their less well prepared co-demonstrators, or those who brought down escalated repression and then fled the scene?
Imagine that various contingents who provided energy, song, creativity, and militancy at the rallies and civil disobedience, had then also, on top of that, not gone off breaking windows when the police got violent, but remained with other demonstrators, shielding them, assisting those who were hurt, helping those suffering from gas. This would have capped their otherwise positive involvement with exemplary behavior on behalf of their fellow demonstrators, rather than tailing off into counter productive window breaking. The image of dissent and activism conveyed by this would have been creative militancy plus humanity and solidarity.
Does this mean, however, that there cannot be a time and place for confrontation and property damage? No, it doesn't mean that, at least not to me. Instead, the time and place for such behavior is when it will meet widespread approval and increase the power of protest rather than providing an excuse for folks to tune out or to become hostile to protest. Up to the trashing, in the above example, the most militant contingents likely added energy, creativity, art, music, and often greatly needed militancy, courage, and steadfastness to many demonstration venues. They uplifted participants' spirits and otherwise played a very positive role within the rubric of the demonstration's guidelines. It was only when some went off breaking windows against the demonstration's norms, in this example, that a problem arose. And we should note that it isn't just trashing that is sometimes warranted and sometimes not. Sometimes civil disobedience is out of place, too. It too can be at odds with the mindsets of people's planning so that spontaneously undertaking civil disobedience would violate an event's logic and the expectations and plans of most people present. It would then, at least in part, alienate people who were moving toward dissent, and not spur new insight and solidarity. Other times, however, employing civil disobedience makes excellent sense and is even pivotal to success. For that matter, sometimes even a march can be adventurist; other times it can be the ideal tactic.
In other words, what tactics at an event are warranted and will help a movement grow and strengthen, and what tactics at an event are unwarranted and will hurt a movement and its cause, is very rarely a matter of unyielding principles but instead depends on how the event has been portrayed and organized, who is at the event, what their expectations are, what the event's prospects are for impacting social outcomes, and how the event and the tactics are likely to be perceived by constituencies beyond the border of the event.
Regrettably, though, this is not inevitable. It has often typically been the case that once activists enter a trashing mindset, they most often don't care about such calculations. At that point their inclination becomes a feeling that to trash is good because, after all, the targets are criminal corporations and damaging them is a step toward demystifying and destroying them. Anyone against that must be pro-corporate, they announce. Their mental energy no longer tries to determine the impact of possible tactics, but only what target to hit. They begin to think it is the height of wisdom to deduce that McDonalds and Nike are better targets than random passersby or a family grocery store. For a relatively minuscule number of participants to impose on a massive demonstration tactics that are contrary to the demonstration's definition is not only unwise for its effects, but also undemocratic in a way that should never typify movement activism.
Of course, the above hypothetical example is largely real. The anti corporate globalization uprising that took place in Seattle, Washington, in the U.S. - which is just one among a great many similar cases - had, before any trashing occurred, already hamstrung the WTO. They had evidenced militant creativity, organization and knowledge. They had begun to generate new allegiances and ties among diverse constituencies. They had combined many levels of creative and militant tactics in a mutually supportive mix. Speeches at rallies, in many instances, made the obvious leaps from opposing free trade to opposing free markets, and from opposing global profiteering to opposing capitalism, per se. The ground work was laid for gains to multiply. Then, the addition of trashing, however emotionally understandable it was, predictably did not win useful visibility that would otherwise have been absent. It did not enlarge the number of folks participating or empathizing with the demonstration. It did not cause more substantive information to be conveyed either in the mainstream or on the left - on the contrary it replaced substance about globalization with an endless litany of noise about police and activist tactics. It did not respect much less enlarge democracy. What it did do, instead, was (a) divert attention from the real issues, (b) provide a pretext for repression which would otherwise have been unequivocally seen as crushing legitimate dissent, and (c) and, arguably most important, cause many to feel that dissent is an unsympathetic undertaking where some feel that they have the right to undemocratically violate the intentions and desires of most others.
Again, the issue is not whether trashing or other aggressive actions per se are good or bad. Suppose that back during Seattle the black bloc hadn't embarked on breaking windows but had become a support group for those suffering police assaults, rallying spirits and protecting bodies. Suppose that hundreds and then thousands more students and workers had joined the civil disobedience efforts because of the sense of community they embodied and the clarity of their aims. Suppose that support actions had occurred all over the country, spreading like Occupy spread more recently. Suppose that the state had used gas and charging cops repeatedly to break up such efforts. And suppose, in this context, a good part of the city's population, the "audience" around the country, and a huge majority of the constituencies that had gone to Seattle, or wherever, to demonstrate felt solidarity with the demonstrators. Now imagine, after a long pattern of totally non violent response, including efforts to actually talk with police troops, that the police charged some peaceful convocation or march yet again, and folks finally had had enough and didn't accept a beating, but instead suddenly stood their ground. Suppose they then turned and decided it was time to push back. Imagine that this led to battles, and then even to cars turned over, barricades built, and so on. The property damage by protesters in such a melee would dwarf anything committed by the trashers in Seattle and it would no doubt exuberantly (though not wisely) extend beyond corporate targets and damage even some property of innocents. Some would say this couldn't possibly be good but in fact, instead, as described, this could have had a completely different flavor and logic from the trashing in Seattle - and could have expanded, rather than diminished, the involved movements and constituencies. There is always a judgment call in the use of tactics.
Sometimes a tactic is wise, other times the same tactic is mistaken.
What was wrong about the political folks who trashed in Seattle or in our hypothetical first case, above, or in some non violent Occupy events and engagements, was that (1) despite their other genuine and valuable contributions to the events, their judgment was horribly faulty. And (2) they egocentrically thought that their judgment alone was sufficient justification for them to dramatically violate norms accepted by hundreds, thousands, and sometimes tens of thousands of other demonstrators.
Changing society isn't a matter of breaking windows, obviously. It is a process of developing consciousness and vehicles of organization and movement, and of then applying these to win gains that benefit deserving constituencies and create conditions for still further victories, leading to permanent institutional change.
Cultivating movement coherence, trust, and solidarity - not just in a small affinity group but far more widely - is a big part of this agenda. Coherence, trust, and solidarity are typically not furthered when small groups undemocratically violate the agenda of massive demonstrations to pursue their private inclinations, even when the small group has a plausible case for its preferences.
The fact that corporations are so vile that attacking them is morally warranted if it will do good, doesn't mean they are so vile that attacking them is morally warranted if it will do harm. Organizing against the Vietnam War, I often used to appear in front of very large and animated audiences, give long talks, and then field questions. It was a tumultuous time and the most prevalent question was often, "Would you burn down the school library if it would end the war?" My reply always took more or less this form, “who wouldn't burn down a library to save a million lives? Of course I would, in an instant. But there is no connection whatsoever between burning a library and helping the victims of U.S. imperialism in Indochina, nor is there any connection between burning a library and altering the fabric of our own society so that the U.S. no longer engages in such pursuits. Worse, such behavior would have exactly the contrary impact, benefiting those committing the vile bombing. Can we now please get on to something serious such as how to communicate effectively to new constituencies about the ills of the war, and how to build sustained and serious resistance to it, and leave the posturing and baiting behind?"
Back then, it was often very brilliant, well-trained, and highly capable minds that drifted into the Weathermen and other such formations bent on violence as a kind of tactical and strategic priority. What was always quite notable was that these individuals could engage carefully, critically, and caringly in many domains, but reverted to odd leaps of faith and fancy regarding their out-of-touch lifestyle and tactical choices. Our movements must do better.
The events in Seattle, for example, were stupendously successful in bringing the WTO into the awareness of people in the U.S. - and adding to awareness and hope all over the world - in making clear to tens of millions that there was great opposition and in laying seeds for further effective activism of many diverse and powerful constituencies willing to respect and relate to one another, to pursue multiple agendas, and to use diverse tactics. This was all achieved, however, not via the trashing, but in spite of it.
I think it is fair to say that the Occupy phenomenon is an extension of, and owes much to, the anti corporate globalization movement, among others, and is now dramatically extending the impact of activism, though also entering a very rocky period. And the same issues keep arising. Some of the pronouncements of defenders of contemporary trashing recall a very brilliant and eloquent friend of mine, who came to my apartment one 1969 night, about 2 AM, and with a bunch of others snuck in and said "We are the Vietcong, we need a place for the night...the revolution is imminent, we are underground, don't mind us, go back to sleep. Wake to a new society."
They had as an excuse for their delirium that they hadn't done just one demonstration, but had been enmeshed in full-time activism for years. Their environment was almost exclusively their friends in Weatherman and they had all lathered themselves into a well motivated but utterly out of touch turmoil of hope, rage, desire, paranoia, anticipation, and abstract rationalization that was so divorced from reality as to render them, so long as the mindsets persisted, very nearly useless as positive agents of social change.
These were in many cases the best minds and best hearts of the sixties generation. So we need to please note that those who find themselves angry at young activists who trash should not make the callous and ignorant mistake of thinking trashers are by nature all anti-political, uncommitted, insensitive, or unsympathetic - much less police agents. Life is not so simple. It isn't the case that those you disagree with are always in some way abhorrent. Militants - even those who violate non violence agreements thus subverting the vast majority of voices - are overwhelmingly movement people, indeed some of our best movement people.
For those who are involved in or who have supported trashing to sharply disparage and even pose as enemies of change those who don't support trashing, or vice versa, isn't going to get anyone anywhere useful. There is misunderstanding on both sides, but the distance to unity and progress is much less than many other chasms we need to traverse, if only we don't unnecessarily widen it. We all should be able to carefully bridge the gap and agree on the broad logic of how to assess tactics - though not to always agree on every judgment about every single specific tactic, of course - and especially to agree on how to abide collective norms at our demonstrations.
Hopefully those who have trashed, at times - which includes me - won't take these words as disparagement of your potential and aspirations. Hopefully, instead, you will seriously consider that perhaps with the best intentions you have, at times, mistakenly repeated one flawed part of sixties movement history - indeed the saddest and least functional part - and will in reaction to this insight rise above the temptations and confusions that bedeviled many of the best in that generation.
The simple fact is that we live in a world, particularly in highly industrialized societies, where the means of violence are almost entirely the province of states. The prospect for any dissident force to overcome military and police violence with counter violence is zero. Watch any video of any conflict between police - much less military - and activists, in any such society - and it is obvious that the military aspect of the conflict is entirely one sided, and would only get much worse if escalated. The only real mitigating factor is growth in the numbers of those dissenting and refusal by the military elements to follow orders. These are the aims those concerned about violence need to focus on.
Sometimes self defense is essential. Sometimes even aggression is desirable. But for the most part, and certainly in the large, violence is the turf of the status quo, not of change, and certainly not of a new world. Little forays into violence - which is all anyone on the left in industrialized countries can do - typically curtails broad participation, justifies repression, diverts consciousness and focus to the inessential, promotes attitudes and mannerisms and habits that are contrary to healthy movement building, all to engage in a battle on turf that is without any doubt theirs, not ours. There is, therefore, a very high burden of proof on exceeding non violence because in the world we inhabit violence typically neither works to win gains, nor, even more, to build support.
What would be sensible is choices aimed at turning cops and military away from their commanders, on the one hand, and increasing the numbers and committed awareness of dissenters so much that we can't be intimidated by shows of force, and the use of force will only add to our ranks and entrench our commitment.
So, on balance, on the question of violence and non violence, such choices are contextual and should be made in light of the whole panoply of effects we can predict. More, choices by a few should not be made in ways that trump choices of the many, imposing violations of non violence on those favoring it by deeds undertaken against agreed norms. Those favoring any tactic that others reject should undertake their own separate efforts, not piggyback on larger ones that do not accept their views. And finally, in any event, at the very least in highly industrialized countries, choices to utilize property damage, much less great violence, have a very high burden of proof, precisely because we know that typically their negative effects are great, and their positive benefits minor, if real at all.






Revisiting Fredy Perlman
By Koutroubis, Peter at Feb 26, 2012 03:46 AM
Reply this comment
The user who created this comment no longer exists.
Can't pull no Rip Van Winkle
By Walsh, Vincent at Feb 12, 2012 03:21 AM
Storytellin’ time again, my friends
Brings me back to that fateful late summer in Chicago
Demo’s convened to put up the Humph
While Ginsberg-Genet-Burroughs
Chanted poetry in the Park
I was a lone volunteer medic
Standing near the flag pole
When a couple of freaks ran down the Stripes
And sent up the Cong
Squad car sittin’, four cops jumped out
One freak ripped off a cop’s helmet
Wailed him on the head
Then I watched as this other kid
This 6’8” stringbean from Austin, Texas
(whom I met by chance in Maine
two hectic years later)
As he got a full dose of Mace point-blank
In the upper face
Collapsed like an empty sack
I waded in, hauled him up over my shoulder
Ran to carry him to safety
Only to turn, see 75 cops in a marching wedge
Stamping their feet and slapping their clubs
Chanting: “Kill, kill! Fuck, Fuck!”
We linked arms to protect the women and little children
When some asshole behind threw a goddamn cinder block
Aimed at a cop, hit me! instead
Damn near fractured my shoulder blade
Then the cops charged
Broken bodies everywhere
Heads profusely bleeding
Cracked open so you could see layers of bone
Through thickly matted hair
Gas so thick it was sheer torture
Just to have to keep breathing
That night and the next things got far worse
If that’s even possible to begin believing
And I guess I’d have to say
That’s when my real education in American Democracy
Actually began, and quite frankly
It’s been in many ways increasingly disheartening
As far as violent state repression here at home goes
Just goes to show
In case you don’t already know
‘Can’t pull no Rip Van Winkle
When it comes to individual rights, social justice
Innate capacity for healthy human growth
2/11/12
Reply this comment
Re: Violence Begets Defeat or Too Much Pacifism?
By Annabel, Patrick at Feb 11, 2012 20:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nAKcWZST1M#Occupy #Anonymous Warning to #BlackBloc FAKE Anon Response
Enjoyed the article and feel it leaves the door open to discussions with many people of differing mindsets...
Peace
Reply this comment
Non Violence Or?
By Hay, Jeff and karen at Feb 11, 2012 18:41 PM
Reply this comment
Re: Non Violence Or?
By Albert, Michael at Feb 13, 2012 14:07 PM
I actually answered yesterday - but it seems it isn't here...very odd. The internet!
You would have to ask her, her view on that. For me, nothing I wrote - or think - rules in or out any particular tactic or strategy in EVERY situation. Such choices are contextual. On the other hand, we can discern, in some cases, that some choices are very unlikely to help in current probable situations - and for those there is a high burden of proof, very high, on use.
It is odd the extent to which many people - even advocates of participation and self management - think that it is their right, or even calling, to routinely violate the will of their body politic...
> For instance, it was the view of the majority of the Direct Action and Tactics group to speak to the Assistant Mayor of Santa Cruz regarding an imposed "permit" that the City delivered to Occupy. It was the majority opinion of the General Assembly that the "First Amendment is our permit".
Well, that committee is wrong, horribly wrong, and should not exist as a committee - or with those members.
> Long story short, certain members of the Direct Action and Tactics group decided to meet "autonomously" with the Vice Mayor.
If that is okay, why is it wrong for a little group to decide to bring torches or guns to a legal peaceful march? But my guess is the committee members were not black bloc folks, but, on the contrary, probably strong critics of the black bloc. Albeit hypocritical ones...
> In the view of my wife and I, these meetings led directly to the Vice Mayor gaining control of the media narrative (he was frequently quoted by the press and on t.v. saying that "I was assured by the Occupiers" regarding any number of things - this despite the autonomous group claiming that they made it perfectly clear they did not speak for Occupy Santa Cruz).
Plausible, but I can't comment - I am not there...
> Additionally, in our view, this autonomous dialogue facilitated the closure of the Occupation. No stones were thrown, no windows broken, and yet the outcome was the passive acceptance of an edict by the City Manager (accompanied by the threat of police violence and or arrest) to vacate the encampment on the date specified by the authorities.
Facilitated - as in helped provide justification for - is again, plausible, but I am not there...
> Elements of this same group are also looking in to having a comrade of Arizona's Sheriff Joe Arapaio come to speak regarding the civil supremacy of a sheriff's authority over even the Constitution of the United States.
That sounds like a right wing libertarian bit of nonsense, honestly, again, from a distance...
> That particular group is now meeting with the Santa Cruz Sheriff to discuss the foreclosure problem here in Santa Cruz and their view of "sheriff supremacy" as a means to stopping foreclosures.
Would they have agreed with "sheriff supremacy" as a way to hold off civil rights gains in the south? Jeeeeeez.
On the other hand, hoping that a caring and enlightened sheriff will refuse to do his or her mandated job seeking, instead, just outcomes - and then supporting the choice of the sheriff - that's a different story.
> In our view, these "autonomous" actions have undermined and essentially ended what was a vibrant Occupation practicing participatory democracy and getting that message heard by a wider audience.
Again, I am guessing, from a distance. It sounds like these choices were horribly ill conceived as preferences, and even worse as willful violations of shared agreements. BUT - I think blaming them for dissolution goes a step too far. Rather, that owes to the desires of the state, on the one hand, and occupy not having devveloiped enough membership and cohesion to withstand bad choices and state actions, on the other. Or tha would be my guess.
> On the other hand, another autonomous group decided to break in to a long vacant Wells Fargo Bank building with the objective of having a community center from which Occupy could function.
In this case, the intention might well be wise - something one would hope most would favor - again, I am not there, can't know or even have a strong opinion. But, even if the idea was good, to implement it against the will of the group would not be good...
> Interviews in the tv media was with a young female 20 something student from UCSC who clearly articulated a case against "private property". This break-in was eventually responded to by the police in full military riot gear coming to expel the new occupants of the bank building.
Suppose there had been 1000 or 5000 people in the building. And more around it. And the community had been informed of the plans for the building, and so on. Then, the ability of the state to clear it would arguably be stymied - doing so would only build more support for the movement... So, as mentioned above, the real underlying issue is what it almost always is - numbers of supporters and their degree of clarity and commitment.
> Those occupiers got word of the pending assault and got out of the building ahead of the police arrival.
So why go in in the first place? This is the point. Actions are not worthy or worthy not based on some abstract judgement about being morally warranted - or being great if everyone decides to hop on. Actions are worthy or not based on the extent to which they are well conceived and carried out so as to virtually guarantee wide support and participation - and, being morally warranted, and able, over time, to build the movement. This had the latter two virtues, but then anything that isn't idiotic does, but obviously not the first.
> Many within what is left of the Occupy movement here consider it the fault of those who broke into the bank building as to why the Encampment was evicted rather than the actions of the "autonomous" conversations with the Vice Mayor.
Same as above - what allows the state to destroy our efforts is their strength - a given - and our weakness. Yes, little choices can weaken us further, or give them rationales that play well with the public...but more critical is our level of support, etc. I am sure you know this!
> In fact, the Vice Mayor used the seizure of the bank building as his reason for evicting the encampment claiming that he was assured "none of this sort of activity would happen". Though those that broke into the bank building did so without General Assembly approval it is also the case that those who assured the Vice Mayor that no such actions would take place also did so without General Assembly approval.
Their actions were horrible for the implication for structure - and because they had the untoward effect of rationalizing an attack, and seemingly no positive effects.
This is the non violence side behaving in a sectarian fashion - such behavior is not confined to those favoring non - non violence.
> For example, the female student who organized the original gathering to decide upon an encampment and an Occupy movement here in Santa Cruz and who facilitated the original G.A. was forced into marginalization when she said she would not agree with the desire of many in that original meeting to declare the Occupation "entirely non-violent". She was not advocating violence rather was not on board with a blanket agreement on non-violence.
As above...
> No discussion took place and subsequent attempts at those types of discussions were always rebuffed and marginalized.
Let me qualify - if the group was truely overwhelmingly in favor of non violence as a policy, then it may have been warranted to reach that conclusion and not continually revisit it due to some very small number of dissenters. I think dissent should be highly respected and given space to work out its views, argue for them, etc. - but that doesn't mean every dissident perspective gets to continually delay and obstruct and otherwise occupy everyone else's time.
> Which as you would probably understand resulted in a deepening sense of anger, resentment and alienation of the people wishing to express their viewpoint regarding the possible use of violence.
And of course the views should have been aired and accesses - and if in a small minority - then it should have been respected as a dissident position, given some means to continue evolving, even experimenting, etc.
> It seems to us that this frustration and deepening sense of anger often leads to poorly thought out acts of violence as does a frustration that many feel towards the "autonomous" groups that are seen as "selling out" the Occupation.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Non Violence Or?
By Hay, Jeff and karen at Feb 13, 2012 18:46 PM
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Non Violence Or?
By Albert, Michael at Feb 13, 2012 19:13 PM
Reply this comment
Types of violence
By Polson, Rufus at Feb 10, 2012 22:23 PM
To my mind, it's not only a question of violence or not-violence, either. It's what kind, both what sort of specific acts and, maybe even more importantly, the organizational environment bringing them to pass. The "violence" of property destruction is I think a bad tactic most of the time in our current situation (whether or not you can really define it as "violent"). But it's hardly the same as the "violence" of assassination, which is different again from the "violence" of fighting back against cops. But also, violence created by an enraged mass uprising is different from violence caused by a small, exclusive or clandestine group. So for instance, a while back in Oakland California, a police officer murdered an unarmed black man at a transit station while he was on the ground on his face handcuffed. Frankly, the authorities would never even have charged him if they hadn't realized that there was a strong likelihood of a truly major riot if they didn't, and if there hadn't been the memory of the Rodney King riots reminding them of what could happen. Such a riot would have involved plenty of property damage, but would have been a popular reaction, very different I think from typical Black Bloc style actions. As a rule I think insular, exclusive or clandestine organizations are the least useful and most counterproductive to progressive movements whether they are violent or not--the Weathermen were wrongheaded partly because they were messing with explosives and that was a terrible tactic under the circumstances, but partly simply because they were wasting their efforts in a sealed-off space insulated from the larger movement, rather than helping build it.
I don't think violence, by most definitions, is going to be very productive in North America for the immediately foreseeable future*. But if there are going to be people who disagree, the best result I can imagine would be an amicable split--a quasi-separate sub-movement, with respect between them but an obvious distinction. An example might be the difference between movements associated with Martin Luther King on one hand, and with Malcolm X or the Black Panthers on the other--all mass, organizing movements (not insular groups like Black Bloc has tended to be) but with quite different attitudes towards violence. Such a distinction between a fairly explicitly non-violent movement and a separate movement more connected with quasi-violent tactics seem to me in the past to have been fairly successful, accidentally setting up a sort of good-cop bad-cop dynamic in which the authorities realize that if they don't deal with King, they will have to deal with X, and where the X/Panther type movement gains legitimacy and grows if the authorities are too oppressive in their approach to the nonviolent King-type movement. This type of separation helps avoid problems of incoherent tactics undercutting one another within a single action.
On a side note, I read an article on this controversy by Peter Gelderloos, "The Surgeons of Occupy",
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/09/the-surgeons-of-occupy/
which is not bad on the subject--repelled by the extreme language of the Hedges piece that set all this off, it's a bit more sympathetic to the Black Bloc than I am, but it's a measured piece I have some sympathy for. But it really annoys me that one rhetorical device he uses to sort of reclaim the Black Bloc is to, again and again, kind of tacitly equate Black Bloc with Anarchism. This is nonsense. Most Anarchists aren't Black Bloc, and many people who really disagree with the Black Bloc are Anarchists. I'm one of them. And I don't think Black Bloc are necessarily Anarchists either. I'd go further--I think there are a moderate number of self-identified "Black Bloc" types who talk about being Anarchists, but who don't mean anything by it beyond "I am angry at the state and think I look cool wearing black". So I cringe when I see an article that makes it seem like if you're beating up on Black Bloc you're beating up on Anarchism.
(Some people will say Black Bloc isn't a group or groups, it's a tactic--but for practical purposes, there are groups and individuals strongly identified with Black Bloc tactics and others which are not, so I don't really have a problem with pointing to affinity group Y and saying "Those folks are Black Bloc")
* Although I might make an exception for fighting back against violence initiated by the police--oddly perhaps, I think the general public probably cares less about demonstrators hitting back at cops in stormtrooper armour bristling with shields and weapons, than they do about demonstrators committing property damage against Starbucks or whatnot. I suppose the difference is the Starbucks are not bristling with weapons and pretty much by definition have not actively attacked the demonstrators--it seems gratuitous, where fighting back against cops tends to look rather courageous. And while the shops are not human, those police often don't look very human either; their armour and fondness for anonymity backfire rather when it comes to those newsclips of clashes with protestors.
Reply this comment
In Support of Nonviolence
By Vincent, John at Feb 10, 2012 18:34 PM
What’s made the Occupy Movement unique is its message of openness and respect creating an environment for men, women and children of all ages to participate regardless of their socioeconomic status or political beliefs, as long as they felt they were part of the 99%. Unprovoked violence and property damage that is not a direct response to a life threatening situation tends to negate that message; it lessens the empathy many nonparticipants have for those taking to the streets and it discourages them from becoming participants, which after all is what is needed if the movement hopes to succeed.
Oakland Mayor Quan’s response to the Occupy Movement was inappropriately violent and clearly demonstrated that those in power were more interested in ending the Movement and restoring “order” than addressing the plight of the participants. Does that justify a shift to more violent tactics on the part of the movement? I don’t think so. It points to a need to focus the attention of nonparticipants on the abusive nature of those in power, and their unwillingness to allow citizens a public space to work collectively and creatively to address issues that pertain to them. It means new tactics are required, but ones that are nonviolent and maintain the message of openness and respect so the movement can reach out to others and grow.
Reply this comment
Re: In Support of Nonviolence
By Albert, Michael at Feb 12, 2012 14:27 PM
The sad thing is, I think, that what Chris did that was new, and the only thing he did that was new, was to make various errors and use some really dubious - I would say harmful - rhetoric. The issue has been addressed often. Various media outlets, and to a degree people throughout the movements, just don't as excited by and thus as drawn in by sober careful discussion, sadly...
Let's see if Chris's effort does, in fact, lead to serious discussion rather than lots of name calling.
On the tactics themselves - lots of people seem to think the issue about a tactic is - does the situation make it morally warranted? Did what THEY did, warrant, morally, what we then did?
But things that are warranted can be unwise, dumb, or even suicidal. This should be absolutely obvious, it is so elementary and so easy to see. Yet it is constantly ignored and people will argue for tactics not by assessing their implications for movement growth and commitment, but simply by reiterating how bad the other side is, or how bad the oppression is, etc.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: In Support of Nonviolence
By Vincent, John at Feb 13, 2012 17:20 PM
I agree, a violent response by THEM – by that I assume you mean the mayors and police – does not morally warrant a violent counter response, and I think it is suicidal if your goal is to reach a wider audience beyond those directly taking part in the movement. It’s too easy for THEM to escalate violence and maintain the upper hand if that tactic is used. That’s why creative alternative tactics that build mass within the movement are needed. The movement needs additional popular support if it wants the power to achieve meaningful goals, which I think can only be achieved by engaging with those who direct the violence. For example, if you want to takeover and hold an empty building in Oakland, you’re not going to be successful using force. The movement needs to demonstrate to a wider audience that converting the building to public use is the right thing to do and its the moral responsibility of the city to caring it out, or at least let others do it. But that’s just my opinion; as you say more serious discussion is needed.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: In Support of Nonviolence
By Albert, Michael at Feb 13, 2012 19:17 PM
My own suspicioin is that taking empty buildings and putting them to good ends can be quite viable. But you need a large enough supportive movement, and enough people directly involved, so simple or even very carefully orchestrated eviction is effectively impossible. If it is possible, it will be done.
What makes it impossible - well - not REALLY impossible, rather, ruled out by elites as an option. The answer is - doing it, evicting folks, will only enlarge the movement's support. In that case, they will try to coopt it, hassle it, make it invisible, etc. etc.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Re: In Support of Nonviolence
By Vincent, John at Feb 13, 2012 21:05 PM
That's what I'm saying, you need to grow the movement by bringing in more people that will be supportive of actions such as taking over buildings. You can't expand without appealing to a broader socioeconomic crossection of the population and violent acts, sabotage, or whatever, are not going to be very apealing to the general public.
I'm not sure I understand your last sentence. If people could take over a building, say one that was a little less prominent and visible without having to resort to violence, they then put it to good use one that benefited people in need, and then they were forcibly evicted, yes that would help grow the movement. The only violent action in that scenario would be that of the elites. It would be the forced eviction that would gain the support, not the alternative, a forceful takeover of a building, which I don't think would be sucessful.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: In Support of Nonviolence
By Vincent, John at Feb 13, 2012 22:19 PM
"The security and surveillance state has a vast arsenal and array of tools at its disposal...We do not have the tools or the wealth of the state."
"The Occupy movement, by naming corporate power and refusing to compromise with it, by forming alternative systems of community and society, embodies ...[a] call to “live in truth.”... Occupy’s most powerful asset is that it articulates this..."
"“We would not have a movement if violence or property damage were used from the outset,” Kevin Zeese"
"“...Lisa Fithian is an author of one of the most concise arguments for nonviolence, "Open Letter to the Occupy Movement: Why We Need Agreements.” The essay points out that without agreements that enshrine nonviolence, “the young [are privileged] over the old, the loud voices over the soft, the fast over the slow, the able-bodied over those with disabilities, the citizen over the immigrant, white folks over people of color, those who can do damage and flee the scene over those who are left to face the consequences.”
"“The Occupy movement includes people from a broad diversity of backgrounds, life experiences and political philosophies,” ... “Some of us want to reform the system and some of us want to tear it down and replace it with something better. Our one great point of agreement is our call for transparency and accountability.""
"...We can’t be transparent behind masks. We can’t be accountable for actions we run away from. We can’t maintain the security culture necessary for planning and carrying out attacks on property and also maintain the openness that can continue to invite in a true diversity of new people. We can’t make alliances with groups from impacted communities, such as immigrants, if we can’t make agreements about what tactics we will employ in any given action.”
Reply this comment
The Threat of a Reasoned Viewpoint
By Dominick, Brian at Feb 10, 2012 18:17 PM
In 1999, you and I both published pieces here on ZNet that were accepted by probably 80 or more percent of activists in North America, but were viciously panned by extremists in the "black bloc" and "pacifist" camps, simply for sympathizing with the better aspects of each "side". Calling for sensible approaches that do indeed respect a "diversity of tactics" and a "diversity of activists" while avoiding disempowerment or hastened repression upsets the extremists at least as much as does taking the opposite of their view. Calls for reason are harder for fundamentalists to grapple with than are equally "lathered up", as you put it, calls for a perceived inversion of one's preferred tactical code.
Nevertheless, the way forward is sensible and appropriate tactics that fit a strategy that invites and enlarges broad participation. I think some version of my "compromise proposal" would make a big difference. I hope someone influencial will make it their own (or make their own) and shop it around the Occupy circles for feedback and/or adoption.
Reply this comment
Provocateurs
By Keller, Keith at Feb 10, 2012 18:17 PM
In discussing the “black bloc,” the first thing which needs to be said up front is that most of the “black bloc” are provocateurs, frequently undercover police or military, which engage in counterproductive thuggery which, in turn, is used by the authorities as a pretext for massive police violence to “keep the peace.” Self-defense is one thing, a violent response to police violence understandable. The “black bloc” is a different category altogether.
Reply this comment
Re: Provocateurs
By Dominick, Brian at Feb 10, 2012 18:19 PM
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Provocateurs
By Keller, Keith at Feb 10, 2012 19:08 PM
Alternative media and common sense. In Seattle, black bloc thuggery went unpunished as peaceful protesters were attacked and arrested. Black bloc thugs were seen and photographed returning to police areas and removing their costumes. Same thing occurred in Italy during the extremely violent crackdown on protesters. At the G20 in Canada, police cars were left unattended to be vandalized and burned by the black bloc, photographed by the media, then used as a pretext to ban assembly. I don’t have handy links for you, but I’m sure you can go to google and locate some. Here is just one of many I quickly found: http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/comments/m01ay I thought that this was so well known as to be uncontroversial.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Provocateurs
By Keller, Keith at Feb 10, 2012 19:12 PM
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Provocateurs
By Dominick, Brian at Feb 10, 2012 19:57 PM
I'm definitely not a big fan of the black bloc and similar tactics, at least as they're commonly practiced at North American actions. As Michael writes here, there's a time and a place for many kinds of tactics, but I think the black bloc is usually misused. That said, I'm also against polarizing language and over-the-top and/or baseless accusations. Hedges's commentary and subsequent Truthout interview were riddled with inaccuracy and absurd conjecture. And claims that "most" black bloc participants are somehow agents, cops, or soldiers is really just way off base. As Michael said, in fact, many of them are very serious organizers who spend 99% of their activism doing institution building or other types of work, and in fact they're often the MOST passionate about the cause. They choose a very unwise tactic, I contend; but casting aspersions on them personally is exactly the wrong move.
Sadly, many of them will viciously attack those of us who try to raise reasonable critiques of their practices, because like pacifism, black bloc mentality is based largely in a form of fundamentalism. Both versions make me more than a little sad.
Reply this comment
fundamentalism
By Karman, Leen at Feb 13, 2012 10:52 AM
Reply this comment
Re: fundamentalism
By Dominick, Brian at Feb 13, 2012 15:19 PM
Pacifism is commonly understood -- including by many self-proclaimed pacifists -- to be the belief that all violence is always wrong. Any absolutist belief like this is basically a fundamentalist stance. Fundamentalism is a strict adherence to dogma or doctrine, typically accompanied by an insistence that others follow suit.
As a vegan, or someone who sympathizes strongly with veganism and practices it pretty thoroughly, I am often openly critical of folks I call "vegan fundamentalists" who seem to believe that any action, however indirect, that can be connected to harming animals is wrong and worthy of condemnation; it seems to me, they are kind of cutting off the nose to spite the face. Same for anarchist fundamentalists who argue that any form of authority is always wrong, period. Doctrines and ideologies can inform, but strict adherence to them almost always winds up causing damage in terms of public perception and in terms of seriously hampering broader efforts to achieve similar goals.
So for uber-vegans to attack liberal animal rights activists for not being vegan enough, etc -- criticism has a time and place, but fundamentalist beliefs typically lead to over-the-top condemnations, and so forth. So you can see where this behavior might cause someone to say "fuck it, I'm out of here" rather than "gee, you're right, I'll join you at your extreme because you're such a great example of who I want to be."
Well, this happens with pacifists, too. A lot of people are not impressed by "turn the other cheek" mentality. Resistance is inspiring, including self-defense, including active engagement, even antagonism of the enemy, sometimes. Fundamentalist beliefs that no form of violence is ever okay are going to spoil movements just as quickly as rash, unstrategic violence.
Which is NOT to say that anyone should have to engage in a practice that violates their own moral belief. So I'm not saying don't BE pacifist or nonviolent. Just as I would never tell someone they have to stand passive in the face of police brutality. BUT, we might say, if you aren't willing to fight back, stay away from a group of people whose tactic is to fight back, and if you aren't going to be nonviolent in the face of police violence, stay away from a demonstration where that's the agreement the participants have.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: fundamentalism
By Karman, Leen at Feb 13, 2012 20:30 PM
No, you are right, the beginning wasn't respectful. Which didn't start with mine "Where the hell ..." but started with your statement about pacifism without any explanation of your point. I am/was really angry. You started your contribution to the discussion with the conclusion that you and Michael Albert had set the conditions some 10 years ago, to mention afterwards, in a subordinate clause, that pacifism is in its base fundamentalist - as if the 80% agreed on that. (I call these subordinate clauses "collateral damage".) Nevertheless, I'm glad we can discuss it now without any clause beforehand.
I'm not bothered with what vegans and uber-vegans or vegan-fundamentalists do with each other.
You have three problems to solve if you want to say things like that:
- what is the definition of pacifism
- what is the definition of fundamentalism
- where do the two meet
You failed to explain either of those (well, you gave some indications, but I think it’s important to have a contextual coherence).
As you say: "pacifism is commonly understood ...". I do not know if you did research, but there's not such a thing as a pacifist bible, and the pacifists I know are not so theoretical. It's your job to stand up for your statement (what I'm intend to call a prejudice) and I do not want to generalize, but a lot of pacifists I know are also anarchists (as I am), and these people do not like to be pushed in whatever direction.
I'm interested to know what your definition is of fundamentalism. Because, your statement made me thinking. If it is so easy to use a term like "fundamentalism" which gained significance after 9/11 and is emotional connected with violence, if not directly with terrorism, and to label anything which according to your personal opinion is too rigid or too less flexible, then we have really a big problem in our society.
If someone has an opinion, and he is not willingly to adjust it to our "most valuable" critiques, then the problem is also ours: because we should ask ourselves why we define our critiques most valuable.
So I expect a better answer than the comparison with vegans and uber-vegans!
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: fundamentalism
By Dominick, Brian at Feb 13, 2012 20:39 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't think we have anything further to discuss here. I've explained myself sufficiently and politely, and I see nothing in your response that challenges the susbtance of my statements, which I set forth in good faith. I kind of doubt anybogy gives a shit what a bunch of old white dudes have to say on this subject anyway, for better or worse.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Provocateurs
By Albert, Michael at Feb 10, 2012 21:54 PM
Just as it was nonsense that most of the weathemen, or black panthers, or even sds were under cover, in my day - and perhaps it is your day, too. I helped organize, at one time, what was then called a white riot... No doubt there were folks who thought only an undercover cop would do such a thing - but they were wrong.
Some are undercovers? Yes. Most are, not even remotely.
Do the tactics sometimes play into the hands of the police and authorities? Yes. Does a non violent stance sometimes also do that? Yes.
To extrapolate from such observations to motives is a way of discussing the issues that is certain to accomplish nothing good. Just as someone claiming that most pacifists are automatically, on that account, against fundamental change and enemies of activism, is both false and also a sure fire route to not communicating well with serious pacifists. The analogy is rather strong.
We all have to learn that when someone has a view different from ours, even markedly different, and even one that we think has harmful implications - it does not demonstrate that their motives are bad nor does it justify us in taking low level or even high level possibilities and asserting that they are inevitable truths.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Re: Provocateurs
By Brussel, Morton k. at Feb 11, 2012 18:52 PM
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Provocateurs
By Albert, Michael at Feb 12, 2012 14:31 PM
There is a very large difference between saying the state will infiltrate movements, and does, sometimes just to spy and later catch people - sometimes to literally try to get the movement to do things that are harmful to it. All this happens, of course.
However recognizing this - and, more - recognizing that some types of movements or sub group are much much easier to infiltrate than others, is not the same as saying everyone or most people in some section of the movement, or a whole movement, is either an infiltrator or a provocateur, etc. etc.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Provocateurs
By Dominick, Brian at Feb 13, 2012 15:25 PM
Morton, you've definitely misunderstood me. I am very much aware that there are police infiltrators inside the black bloc. As they are in all parts of our movements. They infiltrate meetings of elderly peace activists, for god's sake. In fact, they're probably far more dangerous in many of these other circumstances, as they might entrap people into commiting crimes they otherwise wouldn't consider. And the black bloc is highly aware of the fact that it is infiltrated; its participants actively discuss it, possibly to a fault. So nobody is denying that it can and does happen in the US.
I had been challenging Keith to provide evidence to a far-more sweeping claim than the notion that there is some infiltration in US black blocs. His assertion was that the preponderance of participants were provocateurs or undercover cops. I don't think that's what you're claiming, and I certainly wasn't claiming that no black bloc participants are plants, traitors, or undercovers.
In any event, as Michael has poited out, this is hardlty the most relevant matter. The real question is whether black bloc tactics can be or are being used to further and deepen movement commitments, enhance net movement recruitment in solid ways, etc. I think variations on militancy can be used for just this purpose, though I have doubts that what we know as the black bloc will do so.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Re: Provocateurs
By Keller, Keith at Feb 11, 2012 20:20 PM
Michael Albert said: “The idea that most of the black bloc is undercover is, I am sorry Keith, total nonsense.”
I never said that most of the black bloc is undercover, I said that “most of the “black bloc” are provocateurs, frequently undercover police or military, which engage in counterproductive thuggery which, in turn, is used by the authorities as a pretext for massive police violence to “keep the peace.”
When was the last time which the black bloc didn’t engage in hooliganism? When was the last time that this hooliganism did not receive inordinate publicity? When has this needless and counterproductive violence not been used to justify a police crackdown on peaceful demonstrators? The infiltration of the black bloc by the police and military is well known. In Seattle, some of the younger troops were used because they better fit in. The Seattle action was successful because it disrupted the WTO, not because windows were smashed. Their actions are inevitably counterproductive which is why the police leave them alone to do their misguided thing, frequently infiltrating and encouraging them.
Reply this comment
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Provocateurs
By Albert, Michael at Feb 12, 2012 15:20 PM
Keith,
Michael Albert said: “The idea that most of the black bloc is undercover is, I am sorry Keith, total nonsense.”
> I never said that most of the black bloc is undercover, I said that “most of the “black bloc” are provocateurs, frequently undercover police or military, which engage in counterproductive thuggery which, in turn, is used by the authorities as a pretext for massive police violence to “keep the peace.”
Okay, I guess my reply should have quoted directly - I am sorry about that - but regarding the phrase: "most of the “black bloc” are provocateurs, frequently undercover police or military" - again, I am sorry, but it is nonsense... Perhaps loose langauge. Perhaps misconception.
> When was the last time which the black bloc didn’t engage in hooliganism?
Well, whenever they last did, in your view, my guess would be in the hours before that - even in your view - they didn't. And instead my guess would be that they were active in ways you would appreciate, often with great energy.
But beyond that, breaking a bank window, or hurling a tear gas cannister back at cops, and most of the rest of what the black bloc does - at least, what I guess they do - is not "hooliganism." I think it is often ill advised and harmful, but that is not because it breaks a law, or a window, or moves a tear gas canister away from demonstrators, It is instead because, in context, it tends not to add to movement prospects for growth, diversification, etc.
Calling it "hooliganism" - whatever you might precisely mean by that - dismisses it in a way that does not communicate anything substantive other than your distaste. It brooks no discussion - is there anyone in favor of hooliganism? More, it rejects ithe activity - whatever it is - always and in all contexts. Finally, as a result, it allows those who are engaging in actions you dislike to dismiss you, in reply, as being against self defense, against property damage, against anything other than, well, whatever you currently favor. Calling them hooligans makes your voice sound exactly ilke voices in the mainstream - thus dismissable, in the same breath.
> When was the last time that this hooliganism did not receive inordinate publicity?
The breaking of windows, etc., will typically receive lots of coverage. But not always. If and when reporting it would add to movement appeal, movement growth, etc. - coverage will decline, in the mainstream.
> When has this needless and counterproductive violence not been used to justify a police crackdown on peaceful demonstrators?
Same answer - they do what they do to win... so if it aids them, they will do as you say...
But if all the media and authorities have to do, to prevent some activity, is blabber about it as being horrible, hooliganism, worthy of repression, etc., and then that activity is off limits for us - well, I hope you see the problem. When they call legal peaceful demos hooliganism - will you dismiss those involved as hooligans. No, I don't think so. So then they issue is NOT what they say, the issue is the impact of the activity on movement prospects.
> The infiltration of the black bloc by the police and military is well known.
No - it is well assumed - with reasonable justification - up to a point. You only know it when you identify the infiltrating cops.
But so? The occupy movement at large has infiltrators too, no doubt, even in the absense of the black bloc. If having infiltrators means a movement can be dismissed - the other side has a very good tactic - put infiltrators everywhere.
Infiltrators have two main ways of doing damage. 1. Accessing information that harms people or whole movements - open and accountable movements are barely susceptible to this, which is a very good argument in their favor. 2. Influencing the movements to do things which, then, allow authorities to clamp down, or arrest, or, even better, which diminish the movement's appeal.
Your point is that the black bloc is susceptible to 1 and 2. I would agree. I think it is. But honestly, I doubt the infiltrators are earning their pay, because I doubt they are managing to get the black bloc folks to do anything they wouldn't have done anyhow...
> In Seattle, some of the younger troops were used because they better fit in. The Seattle action was successful because it disrupted the WTO, not because windows were smashed.
I don't know how to emphasize enough - that actions are not successful or not based on whether they accomplish some limited tactical aim or not - whether breaking a window or literally demolishing a building, or disrupting a meeting or literally shutting it down or in. Rather, actions are successful or not if doing them does, or does not, increase movement effectivity and comittment, enlarge movement appeal, etc. The issue is always implications for future growth, not effect on some current target.
> Their actions are inevitably counterproductive which is why the police leave them alone to do their misguided thing, frequently infiltrating and encouraging them.
The police leave alone to do their thing lots of groups - including the larger occupy, often... If you want to reject some group, or even just some tactic, you have to argue carefully - not just make simple declarative statements, sometimes true, sometimes false, but in neither case definitive...
What are "their actions"? Most of the time they are doing what you would praise, I would wager, at occupations, like others there. So, instead of that, you mean their hurling tear gas cannisters back, their trying to hold off cops from clubbing people or arresting people, their hurling rocks at cops, their breaking windows, etc. None of this is "inevitably counterproductive" - at least in my view - though I would agree that now, in the U.S., it typically is. So now, do you think I am a hooligan? If not, then don't use the word for others...
All that said, again, I think tactics that go beyond civil disobedience, and sometimes even civil disobedience itself, hell, even just marching, are quite ill suited to current conditions. Other times, each and all can be appropriate, if there is a sufficient scale of support.
Here is the way to know - on balance - how things are going. Is the occupy movement getting steadily larger? Are its participants feeling more and more attached to it, steadily better informed, more insightful, more confident and empowered? Is the broad public, who is not yet involved, feeling steadily more positive - or the opposite?
It is so elementary, again, it feels pedantic to say the above. But, okay, I think the answer to those questions has been, for a while, going in the wrong direction. It is partly due to winter. It is partly due to repression. It is partly, however, due to unappealing and sometimes counterproductive choices of the participants in occupy... So the task is to figure out ways to deal with the first two factors - and to identify poor choices and replace them with good choices.
Reply this comment
Final Comment
By Keller, Keith at Feb 13, 2012 17:35 PM
Michael Albert, I wasn’t going to comment again on this thread, however, your response to me veritably cries out for a response from me. Let me begin by slightly altering my original phraseology to hopefully clear up some misunderstanding. I now say that “most of the “black bloc” are provocateurs, frequently INFILTRATED BY undercover police or military, which engage in counterproductive thuggery which, in turn, is used by the authorities as a pretext for massive police violence to “keep the peace.” By “provocateurs,” I mean someone who provokes, as surely the black bloc does. Now I don’t care if only a few of the black bloc actually is engaged in vandalism, the group as a whole is by association identified with counterproductive vandalism. In other words, it isn’t just a couple of guys who show up, it is an entire bloc which shows up, and when they do it spells trouble. By frequently infiltrated, I mean that on significant numbers of occasions government agents have posed as black bloc members and acted as agents provocateur. I live in Seattle and participated in the 1999 action and can attest to numerous reports of infiltration of the black bloc, whether the majority of the black bloc was aware or not. Here is a link to police infiltrators unmasked in Canada, but it could be anywhere: http://occupyoakland.org/2012/02/police-caught-as-agent-provocateursblack-bloc-in-montebello/
I said “When was the last time which the black bloc didn’t engage in hooliganism?”
You replied: “Well, whenever they last did, in your view, my guess would be in the hours before that - even in your view - they didn't. And instead my guess would be that they were active in ways you would appreciate, often with great energy.”
I really don’t care what these guys do when they aren’t smashing windows, I am referring to any instances of when the black bloc arrived at an action and worked with the organizers of the action to coordinate their activities. I personally am unaware that this has happened. Normally, the group shows up and initiates property destruction even if this is counterproductive to the wishes of the event organizers. According to Paul Hawken, in Seattle the black bloc numbered about 100 and was in full view. They could have been arrested anytime, but weren’t. They came with crow bars, hammers and acid filled eggs, and came specifically to cause property damage. They were eventually joined by local vandals. http://www.yesmagazine.org/pdf/Hawkin_WTO.pdf
In response to my calling the black bloc vandalism “hooliganism,” you said: “More, it rejects ithe activity - whatever it is - always and in all contexts.” I’m not sure how much nuance is justified in describing counterproductive vandalism, you are making this into something it is not. The black bloc seems to have one tactic which they force upon others, and that is the problem. They don’t do this stuff unless there is a larger group that they can escape into. There it is in a nut shell. The black bloc suffers no consequences for their actions while peaceful demonstrators are tear gassed, pepper sprayed, clubbed and arrested. I provide a link to the G20 action where black bloc provocateurs smash and set on fire a police car (a FELLONY) with the police strangely absent, then blend into the crowd which is then attacked by police. http://www.newsofinterest.tv/politics/activist_issues/index.php#noitv_video_black_bloc_g20_flash
I am going to quote an activist from Olympia, Washington on how “helpful” the black bloc is to principled non-violent resistance: “In Olympia, Washington we have a very militant anti-war movement. At one point tactics included direct action against shipment of weapons to the military in Iraq – including tanks and missile. During one demonstration, a local women’s affinity literally lay in front of tanks being brought over public streets to ships to send to Iraq. And while they were laying in the street in front of tanks, Black Bloc anarchist threw stones at police cars, breaking cop windows with cops in them. They threw the stones over the bodies of the women and into the police cars. The cops got out of their cars, the Black Bloccers ran away. And the police beat and brutally peppered sprayed the women (not from a distance but from inches away).” (Gar Lipow)
http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/black-bloc-inspired-by-weathermen/
Now a quote from a former Weatherman on the black bloc: “During the Vietnam antiwar movement the demonstrations were marshaled. We never would have let a gang of ultraleftists to hijack a demonstration in order to give cops the excuse to attack everybody. Furthermore, I have no problems with vandalism. Someone bombed a Starbucks from my apartment building a couple of years ago. Who cares? I just don’t want shit going on like this during a mass demonstration. Those 150 black bloc motherfuckers should have attacked Whole Foods on another day if that’s what gets them off.” (Louis Proyect) http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2011/11/03/occupy-oakland-activists-fend-off-black-bloc-agents-provocateurs/#comment-58015
I said “The Seattle action was successful because it disrupted the WTO, not because windows were smashed.” You replied “…that actions are not successful or not based on whether they accomplish some limited tactical aim or not - whether breaking a window or literally demolishing a building, or disrupting a meeting or literally shutting it down….The issue is always implications for future growth, not effect on some current target.” Seems to me that you are giving mighty short shrift to a major turning point in the resistance to corporate globalization, while simultaneously giving undue credence to the long term efficacy of vandalism.
My final comment concerns the inherent misogynistic nature of the black bloc. "But remember that if the struggle were to resort to violence, it will lose vision, beauty and imagination. Most dangerous of all, it will marginalize and eventually victimize women. And a political struggle that does not have women at the heart of it, above it, below it, and within it is no struggle at all." (Arundhati Roy)
Reply this comment
Re: Final Comment
By Albert, Michael at Feb 13, 2012 19:22 PM
Reply this comment
By Reeve, Phyllis at Feb 10, 2012 18:06 PM
Reply this comment