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David Peterson's Blog

Web Address: http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/davidpeterson
Bio: I am an independent writer and researcher based in Chicago. (More)

All Peterson Blogs

War and the Warrior Classes

By David Peterson at Dec 01, 2005


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As one gentleman lamented in a recent post to the ZNet Blogs:
We present arguments against the war as if it were possible to make arguments in favor. War is always wrong.
Gravely important issues are bound up within these two little sentences. Both for the Americans and for the rest of the world. There are no just wars. Now. Compare the point of view of the Chicago Tribune, whose editorial voice, in its god-awful The Road To War series, continues to defend the Bush regime's military seizure of Iraq, some two-and-three-quarter years after the fact:
In putting so much emphasis on weapons, the White House advanced its most provocative, least verifiable case for war when others would have sufficed. With his support for Palestinian and other terrorists, Hussein was a destabilizing force in the Middle East. His ballistic missiles program, which threatened such U.S. allies as Israel, Kuwait and Turkey, grossly violated the UN's last-chance Resolution 1441—as did his refusal even to divulge the status of his weapons programs. Worse, with the UN failing to enforce its demands, Hussein freely perpetuated the genocidal slaughter of his people. Based on Hussein's indisputable record, the president had ample cause to want regime change in Iraq. Put short, the bumper-sticker accusation that “Bush lied—People died” would be moot today if the president had stuck to known truths. ---- "What we know today," November 20, 2005 The opponents of military action could not seriously argue that Hussein had complied with the UN's repeated demands. Nor could they point to brighter days if only the U.S. and other nations held their fire. This particular argument for war, one of nine advanced by the White House, was not disputable. Iraq had rebuffed the world, and the UN had failed to respond. ---- "Iraq rebuffs the world," November 25, 2005 The Bush administration inherited from President Clinton's administration a U.S. policy of regime change in Iraq--and multiple intelligence warnings that Saddam Hussein had designs on nuclear weaponry. In March 2002, Robert Einhorn, Clinton's assistant secretary of state for non-proliferation, described for the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee the alarming assessment of Iraq that the intelligence community was relaying to the White House during Clinton's second term: “How close is the peril of Iraqi WMD? Today, or at most within a few months, Iraq could launch missile attacks with chemical or biological weapons against its neighbors (albeit attacks that would be ragged, inaccurate and limited in size). “Within four or five years it could have the capability to threaten most of the Middle East and parts of Europe with missiles armed with nuclear weapons containing fissile material produced indigenously--and to threaten U.S. territory with such weapons delivered by non-conventional means, such as commercial shipping containers. If it managed to get its hands on sufficient quantities of already produced fissile material, these threats could arrive much sooner.” Einhorn spoke at a time when the Bush White House was smarting from the accusations that it might have prevented the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, had it accurately assessed the threat to the U.S. from Al Qaeda. What would be the consequences for Americans if the administration now ignored years of dramatic intelligence warnings about Iraq's nuclear capabilities? The difficulty, of course, was that a White House responsible for protecting this country from assault had little choice but to rely on the same agencies that grossly underestimated Iraq's nuke program before the Gulf war. Remember, the consensus of those agencies was that Baghdad had been reconstituting its nuclear program since 1998 and that, with fissile material, Iraq could have a workable bomb in short order. Today we know that those assessments reflected manifest failures of U.S. and European intelligence agencies. Kay criticized the flawed work of those agencies on Jan. 28, 2004, before the Senate Armed Services Committee. But he also had the grace to highlight how difficult it is for analysts to discern other governments' deepest secrets. On multiple points, such as the murky accusations about Iraq's quest for uranium and aluminum tubes, the administration spouted assertions that were at best dubious. Each of us is free to conclude whether that represented a hyping of what little was known about Iraq's nuclear capabilities--or a determination to protect this country and its allies in the region. That said, assertions that the Bush administration strong-armed intelligence analysts in 2002 and 2003, or misled the nation in making its nuclear case for war, challenge logic. During and after Clinton's presidency, the intelligence community repeatedly warned the White House that Iraq was one cache of fissile material and one year short of wielding a nuclear bomb. If the White House manipulated or exaggerated that intelligence before the war in order to paint a more-menacing portrait of Saddam Hussein, it's difficult to imagine why. For five years, the official and oft-delivered alarms from the U.S. intelligence community had been menacing enough. ---- "The quest for nukes: What we know today," November 30, 2005 Citizens of this nation have the right, and the responsibility, to debate whether their government should act pre-emptively against threats it suspects but cannot prove. But citizens also have the right, and the responsibility, to demand that their leaders protect this nation, its overseas interests and its allies from terror attacks. The gravity of those rights and responsibilities should deter our respective zealotries, whatever their bent. The cost of being wrong--of taking the nation to war for uncertain causes, or of underestimating foes until the day they murder thousands--is daunting. We Americans demand that our policymakers act, or be willing to accept the consequences of their inaction. On Nov. 14, the 9/11 Commission issued a progress report on its earlier recommendations: what has been accomplished, what still needs to be done. The progress report's first section, labeled "Nonproliferation," suggests that commission members think our collective concern about future terror attacks is little better than it was on Sept. 10, 2001. In wording more pointed than in its landmark 2004 report, the commission members now state: "Preventing terrorists from gaining access to weapons of mass destruction must be elevated above all other problems of national security because it represents the greatest threat to the American people." Had those words washed across the U.S. in 2002, they would have convinced some Americans of the urgent need for an attack on Iraq. The same words would have convinced other Americans of the need for more certainty that Iraq, not some other enemy, was a real proliferation threat. So two questions hang in midair: Would an Iraq still ruled by Saddam Hussein have reconstituted its deadly weaponry or shared it with terror groups? Or was that possibility sufficiently remote to declare America safe from those threats? The Bush administration argued before the invasion that the answers were yes to the first, no to the second. Of the nine reasons the White House offered in making its case for war, the implications of this warning about Iraq's intentions are among the most treacherous to imagine--yet also the least possible to declare true or false. ---- "The once and future threat," December 4, 2005 The Bush administration portrays conflict in Iraq as part of a challenge to terror prompted by Sept. 11, 2001. Years from now, will the war in Iraq be judged a blow to global terror--or a foolish diversion that allowed it to flourish? Historians easily will discern that coalition and Iraqi forces prevailed against radical Islamists mounting their Alamo moment against the advance of liberal democracy--or, conversely, that the extremists scored a galvanic victory by forcing the Great Satan to retreat. Iraq has served as a unifying cause for Islamist extremists, many of whom have been killed or captured there. That said, those who survive will carry what they've learned about jihad and terror to their homelands. The ultimate answer to whether the war is a blow to global terror likely pivots on who prevails: the troops or the terrorists. The bottom line on Hussein as a past and probable instigator of global terror: The administration's case reflected the intelligence community's evidently exaggerated surmise--and the administration's convictions--beyond the less bombastic facts on the ground. *** Without proof that Hussein armed, or would arm, global networks, how could an American president assert that the possibility of such ties was a compelling argument for war? One man's thoughts: "After 9/11 ... if you had been president, you'd think, Well, this fellow bin Laden just turned these three airplanes full of fuel into weapons of mass destruction, right? Arguably they were super-powerful chemical weapons. Think about it that way. So, you're sitting there as president, you're reeling in the aftermath of this, so, yeah, you want to go get bin Laden and do Afghanistan and all that. But you also have to say, Well, my first responsibility now is to try everything possible to make sure that this terrorist network and other terrorist networks cannot reach chemical and biological weapons or small amounts of fissile material. I've got to do that. "That's why I supported the Iraq thing. ... You couldn't responsibly ignore [the possibility that] a tyrant had these stocks. I never really thought he'd [use them]. What I was far more worried about was that he'd sell this stuff or give it away." Bill Clinton has since hedged his support for his successor's war in Iraq. But it is hard to read Clinton's you-are-there parable in the June 28, 2004, issue of Time magazine without sharing, if only for a moment, the burden every American president will carry from this era forward. ---- "Did Iraq export terror?" December 7, 2005 The fledgling reformation of Mideast politics could collapse as abruptly as it began. But the U.S. is now on record as insisting that democracies in Afghanistan and Iraq not be lonesome for company. In a remarkable June speech, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice startled Egyptian and Saudi leaders accustomed to having their way with Washington: She said Bush's pressure for a more democratic Middle East applies not only to rogue governments, but to America's allies as well. Rice rejected the timid U.S. diplomacy that let so many Lebanons fester. "For 60 years my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region, here in the Middle East--and we achieved neither," she said at Cairo's American University. "Now, we are taking a different course. We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people." She confessed that the U.S. has "no cause for false pride" and "every reason for humility" in advancing that agenda. "It was only in my lifetime," Rice said, "that my government guaranteed the right to vote for all of its people." Decades will pass before we know all of the Iraq war's ripple effects. That said, the ouster of hostile regimes in Kabul and Baghdad clearly curbs some threats previously faced by such U.S. allies as Turkey, Israel and Kuwait. And for remaining terror regimes, the Middle East is now a smaller place. In April 2004, Mideast-oriented Web sites sizzled with excerpts from an influential speech (which begat a book, "A View from the Eye of the Storm") by Haim Harari, the former president of Israel's Weizmann Institute of Science. Harari, a physicist, had isolated an intriguing finding from a different field of academia, geography: "As a result of the conquest of Afghanistan and Iraq, both Iran and Syria are now totally surrounded by territories unfriendly to them. Iran is encircled by Afghanistan, by the Gulf States, Iraq and the Muslim republics of the former Soviet Union. Syria is surrounded by Turkey, Iraq, Jordan and Israel. ... I do not know if the American plan was actually to encircle both Iran and Syria, but that is the resulting situation." The Bush administration's case for war included arguments, particularly about illicit weapons, that proved dead wrong. The White House was correct, though, that democracy in Iraq could spark revolutions of rising expectations. As a result, several other regimes have faced the question, "Why not us?" Rulers who have survived by fomenting hatred of the Great Satan now confront the aspirations of their people. The oft-stated belief here is that this side effect of the war is as welcome as some others are tragic: For one repressive head of state after another, Al Jazeera's coverage of U.S. soldiers protecting eager Iraqi voters makes for unpleasant viewing. ---- "'The virus of democracy'," December 11, 2005
(Quick comment: Wish that I could reproduce the exact same version of the photo that the Trib published on the editorial page of its December 11 edition to accompany this democracy-spreading installment in its Road To War series (Perspective, Sect. 2, p. 10). Still. Here is the same Associated Press photo, though with a slightly different cut:
As you can see, it depicts a young woman, with both her arms extended outward from her shoulders, each of her hands holding the national flag of Lebanon, and is reminiscent of one of those "Fight or Buy Bonds" posters from around the time the Americans seized the First World War:
In the Trib's rendition of the same, the woman looks Madison Avenue all the way. I'm sure she has spent at least as much of her short life on the dance floors of European discothèques as she has the streets of Beirut. The photo's caption reads: "Lebanese protestors demonstrate against Syria in Beirut in March. The next month, Lebanon was liberated from 29 years of Syrian military occupation." A "Cedar Revolution" indeed.)
The White House was correct, after Sept. 11, to pursue Iraq as a likely suspect. Subsequent investigative reports have faulted the U.S. intelligence community, and two administrations, for not better using their imaginations to protect this country by pressing for better intel. Iraq was a likely suspect. Its chronic refusal to heed United Nations mandates made it more so. President Bush also was correct to demand that no rogue state be allowed to ally with Al Qaeda. To do less--to accept the UN Security Council's refusal to enforce crucial demands on Iraq--invited catastrophe. As the 9/11 Commission said about U.S. tolerance of bin Laden before the attacks: "Since we believe that both President Clinton and President Bush were genuinely concerned about the danger posed by Al Qaeda, approaches involving more direct intervention against the sanctuary in Afghanistan apparently must have seemed--if they were considered at all--to be disproportionate to the threat.... It is hardest to mount a major effort while a problem still seems minor. Once the danger has fully materialized, evident to all, mobilizing action is easier--but it then may be too late." But by stripping its rhetoric about Iraq and Al Qaeda of the ambiguity in the intel data, the White House exaggerated this argument for war. Bush synthesized a better argument, properly invoking Sept. 11, during an Oct. 6, 2004, campaign stop in Wilkes-Barre, Pa. He said that given the dictator's prior use of illicit weapons, his record of aggression, his hatred for the U.S. and his identification by Democratic and Republican administrations as a terror sponsor, "There was a risk--a real risk--that Saddam Hussein would pass weapons, or materials, or information, to terrorist networks. In the world after September the 11th, that was a risk we could not afford to take." That argument, before the war, would have lacked the impact of implying that Iraq played a role in attacking America. It would, though, have had the virtue of being true. ---- "Iraq and Al Qaeda," December 14, 2005 The risk in considering body counts this large, cruelties this ghoulish, is that at some point the victims seem more like statistics than individual men, or women, or children. In detailing how Saddam Hussein's regime had mistreated his people--and mocked United Nations Security Council Resolution 688--the Bush White House was spot-on, even reserved. Few if any war opponents, in this country or elsewhere, have suggested that the administration exaggerated this argument. Nor have the opponents asserted that an unmolested Hussein would, out of gratitude, have eased his repression. Those UN inspectors who, for a time, supposedly contained his menace? Their specialty was searching for weapons sites, not exhuming mass graves. ---- "Butchery in Baghdad," December 18, 2005 The Bush administration invested this nation's blood and treasure in a radical conviction: that the greater Middle East could be ruled less by wild furies than by the citizens of many lands who have the greatest stake in its future. Iraq is that conviction's fiercest crucible. If the country's alloy of rival groups does not melt, the peoples of more nations may be tempted to embrace self-rule. We are in an era in which history is hostile to despots. Thus far, that alloy has survived terrorist attempts to provoke a civil war, to intimidate Iraqi democrats, to drive out the U.S. troops who shield a fledgling government. Over time, Americans in uniform will leave Iraq. The hope here is that they come home with tremendous pride in a mission they truly have completed. Only when our soldiers are gone, when Iraqis alone must nurture this new Iraq, will we learn whether that U.S. blood and treasure have enabled a treacherous patch of Earth to liberalize and thrive. We cannot yet know if this Iraq--by its example to other nations or by the envy it provokes in them--will be the democracy that transforms a region of primitive governments. But freedom now has a foothold where it had none before--in a region that has spawned many hatreds. Given that history, this nation and its allies will likely be safer now that free Iraqis have a promising future to grow and protect. ---- "'Your liberation is near'," December 21, 2005
Anyone detect a pattern here? Hands-down, the Chicago Tribune is officially apologetic with respect to its favorite state's March, 2003 war of aggression. The Trib promises that, one week from today, December 28, it will share with readers its “verdicts on each of the Bush administration's arguments”---of which, by the Trib's count, there have been nine in all. Like a kid staring at his presents under the Christmas tree before the official day arrives, I can hardly wait to open next Wednesday's Trib and see what's inside. I don't believe that even the regime itself responsible for this criminal enterprise pretends to have made as many as nine different arguments for the military seizure of Iraq.
(Quick aside. For a fortuitously timed counterpoint to all of this bunk, yesterday's important report from Michigan Representative John Conyers, the ranking minority member of the Judiciary Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives: The Constitution in Crisis: The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution, and Coverups in the Iraq War, December 20, 2005. (For the PDF version of the complete report.))
And now, having completed the nine installments in its The Road To War series, what verdict has the editorial voice of the Chicago Tribune finally shared with its readers?
Did President Bush intentionally mislead this nation and its allies into war? Or is it his critics who have misled Americans, recasting history to discredit him and his policies? If your responses are reflexive and self-assured, read on. On Nov. 20, the Tribune began an inquest: We set out to assess the Bush administration's arguments for war in Iraq. We have weighed each of those nine arguments against the findings of subsequent official investigations by the 9/11 Commission, the Senate Intelligence Committee and others. We predicted that this exercise would distress the smug and self-assured--those who have unquestioningly supported, or opposed, this war. The matrix below summarizes findings from the resulting nine editorials. We have tried to bring order to a national debate that has flared for almost three years. Our intent was to help Tribune readers judge the case for war--based not on who shouts loudest, but on what actually was said and what happened. The administration didn't advance its arguments with equal emphasis. Neither, though, did its case rely solely on Iraq's alleged illicit weapons. The other most prominent assertion in administration speeches and presentations was as accurate as the weapons argument was flawed: that Saddam Hussein had rejected 12 years of United Nations demands that he account for his stores of deadly weapons--and also stop exterminating innocents. Evaluating all nine arguments lets each of us decide which ones we now find persuasive or empty, and whether President Bush tried to mislead us. In measuring risks to this country, the administration relied on the same intelligence agencies, in the U.S. and overseas, that failed to anticipate Sept. 11, 2001. We now know that the White House explained some but not enough of the ambiguities embedded in those agencies' conclusions. By not stressing what wasn't known as much as what was, the White House wound up exaggerating allegations that proved dead wrong. Those flawed assertions are central to the charge that the president lied. Such accusations, though, can unfairly conflate three issues: the strength of the case Bush argued before the war, his refusal to delay its launch in March 2003 and his administration's failure to better anticipate the chaos that would follow. Those three are important, but not to be confused with one another. After reassessing the administration's nine arguments for war, we do not see the conspiracy to mislead that many critics allege. Example: The accusation that Bush lied about Saddam Hussein's weapons programs overlooks years of global intelligence warnings that, by February 2003, had convinced even French President Jacques Chirac of "the probable possession of weapons of mass destruction by an uncontrollable country, Iraq." We also know that, as early as 1997, U.S. intel agencies began repeatedly warning the Clinton White House that Iraq, with fissile material from a foreign source, could have a crude nuclear bomb within a year. Seventeen days before the war, this page reluctantly urged the president to launch it. We said that every earnest tool of diplomacy with Iraq had failed to improve the world's security, stop the butchery--or rationalize years of UN inaction. We contended that Saddam Hussein, not George W. Bush, had demanded this conflict. Many people of patriotism and integrity disagreed with us and still do. But the totality of what we know now--what this matrix chronicles-- affirms for us our verdict of March 2, 2003. We hope these editorials help Tribune readers assess theirs. ---- "Judging the Case for War," December 28, 2005
Yes. You read these paragraphs correctly, friends. Incredibly, as late as December 28, 2005, the editorial voice of this major American newspaper can still argue that, “After reassessing the administration's nine arguments for war, we do not see the conspiracy to mislead that many critics allege”! And it can still conclude that:
Seventeen days before the war, this page reluctantly urged the president to launch it. We said that every earnest tool of diplomacy with Iraq had failed to improve the world's security, stop the butchery--or rationalize years of UN inaction. We contended that Saddam Hussein, not George W. Bush, had demanded this conflict....[T]he totality of what we know now...affirms for us our verdict of March 2, 2003.
Well. At least in denying that its investigation uncovered any evidence of a conspiracy to mislead on the part of the regime that launched the war in March, 2003, the Chicago Tribune was honest enough not to assert that the principals behind this late 2005 exercise in defense of the American aggression were free of any similar conspiracy. Now that really would have been too much to stomach. And it only gets worse, I'm afraid, much worse, as we move from the States-based warrior classes to the life-negating point of view of the American political leadership, and to the legions that it assembles, even today, to carry out its mission of ruling the world by force:
"President Outlines Strategy for Victory in Iraq" (the President's Speech at the U.S. Naval Academy), White House Office of the Press Secretary, November 30, 2005 "National Strategy for Victory in Iraq" (for the PDF version of the complete document), White House Office of the Press Secretary, November 30, 2005 "Fact Sheet: Training Iraqi Security Forces," White House Office of the Press Secretary, November 30, 2005
"Bush in Iraq, Slouching Toward Genocide," Robert Parry, ConsortiumNews.com, December 1, 2005 "Victory, Mr. President?" Rupert Cornwell, The Independent, December 1, 2005 (as posted to Truthout) "Bush Speech Offers 'Clear Strategy' - For Victory or Disaster?" Ray McGovern, Truthout, December 1, 2005 "Profusion of Rebel Groups Helps Them Survive in Iraq," Dexter Filkins, New York Times, December 2, 2005 (as posted to Truthout) "Bullet Points over Baghdad," Paul Krugman, New York Times, December 2, 2005 (as posted to Truthout) "Probe into Iraq coverage widens," Rick Jervis and Zaid Sabah, USA Today, December 9, 2005 "All the News That's Fit to Buy," Alexander Cockburn, CounterPunch, December 10/11, 2005 "Military's Information War Is Vast and Often Secretive," Jeff Gerth, New York Times, December 11, 2005 (as posted to Truthout) "'Intelligence' and the Invasion of Iraq," ZNet, April 1, 2005 "'Scrutinizing Bush's Record'?" ZNet, July 14, 2005 "Iraq and the Chicago Tribune," ZNet, November 20, 2005 "War and the Warrior Classes," ZNet, December 1, 2005 "Propaganda -- Overt and Covert," ZNet, December 5, 2005
Postscript (January 13, 2006): In the editorial reproduced below from today's Chicago Tribune, the Trib bids us to "remember how Iran has challenged the world, again and again, and the world has blinked, again and again." But---do you suppose that the Chicago Tribune has ever appeased American Power? Or, worse, how about engaged in sheer apologetics on behalf of one or more of the Americans' wars of aggression?
Letters to the Editor: ctc-tribletter@tribune.com Chicago Tribune, Editorial January 13, 2006 Iran and the art of appeasement The British, French and German foreign ministers acknowledged Thursday what has been obvious for months, if not years: Negotiations with Iran over its nuclear ambitions have reached a "dead end." The ministers called for Tehran to be referred to the UN Security Council, which could impose sanctions. Yes, this sounds familiar. For two years, Iran has broken its agreements and defiantly batted away deal after deal to blunt its nuclear programs. It has proven the Europeans were utterly foolish in their faith that they could reason with the radical regime. Iran is betting that the Europeans can be made to look even more foolish. After the foreign ministers spoke on Thursday, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said Iran's top nuclear negotiator told him in a phone call that Tehran wants to resume negotiations with the Europeans, this time with a deadline. Iran is back in the bomb-making business. It was probably never out of business. On Tuesday, with international inspectors watching, Iranian officials ripped the seals off equipment and began work on enriching uranium, the key to building a bomb. Such a move, International Atomic Energy Agency director Mohamed ElBaradei has said, is a "red line for the international community." So in reference to Iran, the Nobel Peace Prize winner has moved from "failed to meet its obligations" (ElBaradei, 2003) to "confidence deficit" (ElBaradei, 2004) to "losing patience" (ElBaradei, 2005) to the crossing of a red line. Yes, the mullahs are having peaceful nights. The rest of the world should be having fitful nights. Once Iranian scientists master the intricacies of enriching uranium on a large scale, there will be nothing to stop them from making material for bombs. Iran probably already has nuclear warhead designs. There are reports that Iran is scouring Europe for nuclear weapons components and is seeking to extend the range of its missiles, which already threaten Israel. One U.S. official described the move to refer Iran for sanctions as "do-or-die diplomacy. If we fail to get broad support on this, there will be few options left for the international community to curb Iran's program." The U.S. and the Europeans are lobbying Russia and China to accede to a referral of Iran to the Security Council. That move is likely to happen, possibly at a meeting in early February. Only a unified Security Council ready to isolate Iran economically from the rest of the world has any chance of stopping the Iranian bomb program. But the chances that the council will vote tough sanctions remain bleak. The Russians are loath to lose lucrative trade with Tehran, as are many European states. The Chinese depend on Iran for 13 percent of their oil imports. There are reports that Israel is planning a pre-emptive strike on Iran's nuclear sites. (Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad recently called for Israel to be "wiped off the map.") If it happens, if Israel or some other nation launches a military response, the condemnation from some quarters will be expressed in harsher terms than "losing patience." But if it happens, remember this week. And remember how Iran has challenged the world, again and again, and the world has blinked, again and again.
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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Peterson, David at Jan 14, 2006 01:12 AM

Friends: In the editorial reproduced below from today's Chicago Tribune, the Trib bids us to "remember how Iran has challenged the world, again and again, and the world has blinked, again and again." But---do you suppose that the Chicago Tribune has ever appeased American Power? Or, worse, how about engaged in sheer apologetics on behalf of one or more of the Americans' wars of aggression?
Letters to the Editor: ctc-tribletter@tribune.com Chicago Tribune, Editorial January 13, 2006 Iran and the art of appeasement The British, French and German foreign ministers acknowledged Thursday what has been obvious for months, if not years: Negotiations with Iran over its nuclear ambitions have reached a "dead end." The ministers called for Tehran to be referred to the UN Security Council, which could impose sanctions. Yes, this sounds familiar. For two years, Iran has broken its agreements and defiantly batted away deal after deal to blunt its nuclear programs. It has proven the Europeans were utterly foolish in their faith that they could reason with the radical regime. Iran is betting that the Europeans can be made to look even more foolish. After the foreign ministers spoke on Thursday, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said Iran's top nuclear negotiator told him in a phone call that Tehran wants to resume negotiations with the Europeans, this time with a deadline. Iran is back in the bomb-making business. It was probably never out of business. On Tuesday, with international inspectors watching, Iranian officials ripped the seals off equipment and began work on enriching uranium, the key to building a bomb. Such a move, International Atomic Energy Agency director Mohamed ElBaradei has said, is a "red line for the international community." So in reference to Iran, the Nobel Peace Prize winner has moved from "failed to meet its obligations" (ElBaradei, 2003) to "confidence deficit" (ElBaradei, 2004) to "losing patience" (ElBaradei, 2005) to the crossing of a red line. Yes, the mullahs are having peaceful nights. The rest of the world should be having fitful nights. Once Iranian scientists master the intricacies of enriching uranium on a large scale, there will be nothing to stop them from making material for bombs. Iran probably already has nuclear warhead designs. There are reports that Iran is scouring Europe for nuclear weapons components and is seeking to extend the range of its missiles, which already threaten Israel. One U.S. official described the move to refer Iran for sanctions as "do-or-die diplomacy. If we fail to get broad support on this, there will be few options left for the international community to curb Iran's program." The U.S. and the Europeans are lobbying Russia and China to accede to a referral of Iran to the Security Council. That move is likely to happen, possibly at a meeting in early February. Only a unified Security Council ready to isolate Iran economically from the rest of the world has any chance of stopping the Iranian bomb program. But the chances that the council will vote tough sanctions remain bleak. The Russians are loath to lose lucrative trade with Tehran, as are many European states. The Chinese depend on Iran for 13 percent of their oil imports. There are reports that Israel is planning a pre-emptive strike on Iran's nuclear sites. (Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad recently called for Israel to be "wiped off the map.") If it happens, if Israel or some other nation launches a military response, the condemnation from some quarters will be expressed in harsher terms than "losing patience." But if it happens, remember this week. And remember how Iran has challenged the world, again and again, and the world has blinked, again and again.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Peterson, David at Dec 28, 2005 23:34 PM

Friends: For a copy of the final installment in the Chicago Tribune's The Road To War series, its defense of the American aggression over Iraq, see "Judging the Case for War," December 28, 2005. Incredibly, as late as today, some 33 months after the Americans launched their war of aggression over Iraq, the editorial voice of this major American newspaper can still argue that, “After reassessing the administration's nine arguments for war, we do not see the conspiracy to mislead that many critics allege”! And it can still conclude that:
Seventeen days before the war, this page reluctantly urged the president to launch it. We said that every earnest tool of diplomacy with Iraq had failed to improve the world's security, stop the butchery--or rationalize years of UN inaction. We contended that Saddam Hussein, not George W. Bush, had demanded this conflict....[T]he totality of what we know now...affirms for us our verdict of March 2, 2003.
Well. At least in denying that its investigation uncovered any evidence of a conspiracy to mislead on the part of the regime that launched the war in March, 2003, the Chicago Tribune was honest enough not to assert that the principals behind this late 2005 exercise in defense of the American aggression were free of any similar conspiracy. Now that really would have been too much to stomach. For those of you with some concern about the real world, I strongly urge you to take a look at the report from the ranking minority member of the Judiciary Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives, John Conyers:
The Constitution in Crisis: The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution, and Coverups in the Iraq War, December 20, 2005. (For the PDF version of the complete report.)
It provides a powerful counterpoint to all of this bunk shoveled at us in recent weeks by the Chicago Tribune.
"'Intelligence' and the Invasion of Iraq," ZNet, April 1, 2005 "'Scrutinizing Bush's Record'?" ZNet, July 14, 2005 "Iraq and the Chicago Tribune," ZNet, November 20, 2005 "War and the Warrior Classes," ZNet, December 1, 2005 "Propaganda -- Overt and Covert," ZNet, December 5, 2005

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Dec 20, 2005 02:07 AM

Continued: Graeme, you wrote: 'Killing children is far more than "distasteful" for me...I feel it represents a position widely-shared by enough of the human population to make it a useful starting point to assess the morality of any particular action, state or non-state...' My point was not that killing children is a matter of taste but that your use of ‘moral concern' takes on the structure of arguments from taste. You say that you are not universalizing your ‘moral concern', yet you state that, ‘it is a truism, at least to me, that killing innocent children is wrong.' Appealing to what you think enough of the human population thinks of a particular issue as the foundation for making a moral claim is philosophically unsound and dangerous. Afterall a a large portion of the world's population think that capitalism has won or that Britney Spears is a great artist. The point of all of this is that your subjective ‘moral concern' about the results of war, although admirable (and I do agree with you and have been involved in writing and activism that fights against war), does not have the power to really argue against someone who does not share this moral concern. Without some sort of universal concepts and claims (some sort of theory), moral claims do not have any force or their force is only applicable within a particular culture or like-minded persons.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Dec 19, 2005 22:18 PM

Continued: Graeme wrote: ‘if we take its conditions seriously, we would have to conclude that there has never been a single war in history that meets "Just War" criteria, making the theory itself suspect, at least to me.' This is precisely the point of establishing such criteria, although I would not say that there has never been a war in history that meets these criteria. Such criteria limit the morally justified and acceptable limits of what should be an absolute last resort, i.e. going to war. If these criteria were to be taken seriously, not only would war be reduced and prevented, but we would be able to see that most wars are immoral. I cannot speak for Walzer and others who advocate ‘just war' arguments, but I started thinking about the conditions under which war and violence would be justified because I was contantly being pressed in an email discussion concerning my anti-war and pacifist views. The more I though about this, the more I realized that a categorical rejection of violence would exclude all kinds of situations in which a failure to act would result in greater suffering for all involved. Thus, I wrote this: http://post-thought.blogspot.com/2005/08/continuation-of-politics-by-other.html in order to make my position against war and violence clear without sinking into hypocrisy or always having to supply caveats.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Dec 19, 2005 21:48 PM

Graeme, You wrote: 'Thanks for your reply. As I said earlier, it is entirely possible that our disagreement is largely a semantic one. Still, I feel there are several key points which you continue to misconstrue (I hardly see how "just war arguments" isn't a "proper term" when we are explicitly discussing Just War for instance, but I digress).' I think that the characterization of criteria for establishing the justification of war (or violent conflict, which applies to situations in which indviduals find themselves and not just governments) as ‘just war arguments' confuses two different views of justice. This characterization of these arguments in this way implies that justice is achieved through war or violent conflict. A war would be laudable if found to be just. This is not my view. Rather, I view ‘just war arguments' as a set of criteria that establishes justification of a response. The difference is subtle but important. My criteria were formulated less as a ‘justification' of war and more as a strategy to counteract imperial war and quick trigger fingers.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 17, 2005 04:29 AM

In general, it usually better to have no rules than to have rules that are not enforced.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Ess, Shyela at Dec 15, 2005 16:33 PM

I agree with Graeme. I think morality is priori, we are hardwired, if you will, to act in a way that preserves ourselves and fellow human beings. The abstraction of theory comes later as a means of understanding what it is to be human. The scant proof I have regarding is this claim, addressing the topic, is the plethora of propoganda and other means of persuasion used to convince people war/killing can be justified.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Dec 13, 2005 05:01 AM

In my last post, I meant the Kant of the second critique, not the third. CMZ

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By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Dec 13, 2005 01:57 AM

Graeme, To continue. You have repeatedly said that one does not require a theoretical position to claim that war is immoral. You have referred to a certain 'moral concern'. You wrote, 'if I see someone shoot a child in the street I don't have to consult any theory to figure out it's wrong.' Of course one does not have to consult a theory or be familiar with the Kant of the 3rd critique for example. My point was that any moral claim relies on a considerable amount of theory irrespective of whether or not the person making the claim is aware of that theory. You seem to rely on this moral concern for making moral claims. In your example, you explain the situation of a kid being shot in the street as morally wrong (although more context would be needed to make this claim). What you seem to rely upon here is some sort of moral sense which seems to be similar to the notion of taste, which is entirely relative and subjective. My point is that without certain theoretical concepts and procedures, moral concern cannot be 'universalizable' or shared within a community. In other words, moral claims rest upon an enormous history of theoretical considerations. Your claim that you are against war because of its consequences is also a theoretical position in the sense that I am trying to explain. I look forward to your response.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Dec 13, 2005 01:27 AM

Graeme, In the discussion of 'just war arguments' (which is not really the proper term for such arguments) you wrote: 'No, and I cannot "categorically deny" (i.e., disprove) that aliens exist.' Your use of a logical possibility here is out of place. We are not talking about the realm of logical possibilities. Constructing criteria to determine the morality of a violent response is not a question of dreaming up possible scenarios in which war would be just, rather it is a heuristic tool with which past wars, present decisions, and future conflict can be judged within a common framework. Thinking about and discussing such criteria help to cultivate critical stances and attitudes. It is an attempt to probe the acceptable limits of violence. You also wrote, 'I think it is far more naiive and irresponsible to allow the powerful any more tools to co-opt to their agenda.' This has nothing to do with our discussion. I am not quite sure how to respond to this. 'As I have said earlier, sometimes violence is unavoidable and justifiable, but it cannot by definition be just.' I think that part of our disagreement stems from the use of technical terms. In terms of my criteria, I am using the term 'just' in the sense of being justified and fair and not morally praiseworthy.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Peterson, David at Dec 12, 2005 02:20 AM

Friends: Three worth chewing on. Particularly Alexander Cockburn's.
"Probe into Iraq coverage widens," Rick Jervis and Zaid Sabah, USA Today, December 9, 2005 "All the News That's Fit to Buy," Alexander Cockburn, CounterPunch, December 10/11, 2005 "Military's Information War Is Vast and Often Secretive," Jeff Gerth, New York Times, December 11, 2005 (as posted to Truthout)

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 10, 2005 09:13 AM

"And that, ladies and gentlement, is called a tangent." But being a historical know-it-all is all I have in this world. Don't take that away from me.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 10, 2005 08:35 AM

""English;" i.e., Anglo-Saxon." Yeah, but the Angles and Saxons came from upper and lower denmark, respectively. The area of germeny right south of the Danish border is called "Saxony". Being on the Baltic, the "northerm mediterranian" meant they were culturally and linguistically similar to the "norse" germanics - for instance, Tuesday comes from Tiu, which was the Anglo-Saxon term for the "Norse" god Tyr. The "Norse" mythos was the mythos of most Germanics -we just call it "Norse" because they were the last to hang on the old ways and all the historians were from people that had been christian for centuries and no longer identified with them as culutrally similar. Beowulf was english, but the story predates the writing by centuries and came down from the old pagan oral/musical traditions aka. the Bards.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Dec 08, 2005 20:38 PM

There is obviously still some confusion concerning the concept of a 'just war'. It is not the case that 'just war' theories would celebrate a war because it passes a test. In other words, a 'just war' is not an end in itself. Rather, such theories construct very stringent moral criteria to demonstrate that war is immoral and should be avoided. But we cannot categorically deny that there are circumstances and contexts in which a violent response or intervention would be justified. It is naive and at times irresponsible to state that all violence is unjust, especially in situations in which one is subject to immoral and unjustified violence. Graeme, I fail to see how it is possible to make any moral claims without a considerable amount of theory. One must have notions of justice, fairness, equality, human relationships, goodness, etc. as well as some theoretical position on the context in which moral claims are articulated in order to make any sort of moral claim or to be against war.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 08, 2005 08:50 AM

Graeme, Actually, Tacitus was writing about the "Germanic Tribes" - not just modern "Germans" - who ended up settling pretty much all of central/western Europe. And I've always thought Beowulf was a "Norse" tale in general, and it was just the English version (imported by the Norse raiders) that was written down and survived. "Serious"? I don't know. I've always felt the occasional urge to go raid the French coastline, but I don't know if thats my viking blood or just a good old fashioned American dislike of the French :). "Pathologically Violent"? Hell yeah. These were people who saw heaven as a place where you got to die in battle every day and get resurrected in the morning. But, I still love those guys. I love all the European barbarians - Celts and Germans. They drank big, talked big, fought big, and LOVED the bling-bling. You could translate most of beowulf into modern street slang and a lot of people would relate to it. Beowulf, upong arrival, more or less announces "I'm up in this Hizzie. Y'all better recognise".

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 08, 2005 04:38 AM

"...The Germans have no taste for peace; reknown is easier won among perils and you cannot maintains a large body of companions except by violence and bloodshed...You will find it harder to persuade a German to plow the land and await it's annual produce with patience than to challenge a foe and earn the prize of his wounds. He thinks it spiritless and slack to gain by sweat what he can buy with blood." (Tacitus, "Germania") "Sorrow not wise warrior, for it is better to avenge your friend than to mourn. Each of us must await the end of this world in turn. Let him who may win glory while he can. That is best for the warrior after he has gone from life" (Beowulf). My ancestors were burning french cities before it was cool.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Peterson, David at Dec 07, 2005 20:25 PM

Friends: Sincerest apologies for not having kept up with this vital discussion with the same fidelity that some of you have managed. But I assure you that my access to this website has been as problematic as yours. Nevertheless. My belief is that there is such an incommensurability between the nature of war in the eras (let us say) of Aquinas, Augustine, and earlier, no matter how bloody they already were, and in (quote-unquote) modern times, that the notion of just war (which I never would have accepted in any era) cannot possibly be entertained today. (By the way, the Church of Rome clings to the notion of just war with such fervor that one can only conclude that the very this-worldly Church grew up with forms of official violence. See, e.g., the Catechism's treatment of "Safeguarding Peace," pars. 2302 - 2317, in the section devoted to "The Fifth Commandment." I've always felt that the Church of Rome was related to the tradition of official violence. Even more closely related than cousins.) Instead what we find when we examine contemporary defenses of the justness of war---even Chapter VII-type defenses (e.g. Art. 51's "inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security"), which ought to be understood as the outermost extreme cases, with enormously difficult conditions of proof---are advocacy of the selective right of certain powers to prey upon others. Nothing more. The Americans excel at this. Also the honorary Americans. (For one of the more prominent defenders of imperial wars of aggression and the crimes of war (torture included) that routinely accompany them---if and only if they are perpetrated by the greatest of the Great Powers, see "From Tragedy and Bloodshed, Michael Ignatieff Draws Human-Rights Ideals," Danny Postel, Chronicle of Higher Education, March 8, 2002. And for a nice critique of the weapons-polishing approach of this creepy apologist for American Power, see "Michael Ignatieff's Pseudo-Hegelian Apologetics for Imperialism," Edward S. Herman, October, 2005.) Let me try to illustrate my point in this manner. A just-released Associated Press - Ipsos poll of attitudes toward "torture" in nine different countries (the U.S., U.K., Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, South Korea, and Spain) asked respondents the following questions:
1. How do you feel about the use of torture against suspected terrorists to obtain information about terrorism activities?... 2. Would you support or oppose allowing the United States to secretly interrogate suspected terrorists in (Country) to try to obtain information about terrorist activities?...
In response to No. 1, only 36% of U.S. respondents stated that "the use of torture...can never be justified." (The response was only 10% among South Koreans.) And in response to No. 2, only 32% of U.S. respondents would oppose "allowing the United States to secretly interrogate suspected terrorists" in another country. (For more on this particular poll, see "Most Living In Eight Countries Allied With U.S. Want Nothing To Do With Secret Interrogation Of Suspected Terrorists," Dec. 6, 2005.) That responses to poll questions such as these are not universally opposed to the use of torture under any circumstances ought to give us cause for worrying about the state of the world. But---suppose we were to rewrite No. 1 to read as follows:
How would you feel about the use of torture against members of your family to obtain information that might save a lot of innocent people's lives?... - Often be justified............ - Sometimes be justified............ - Rarely be justified............ - Never be justified............
I would hope that everyone's response to a question such as this (if you even bothered to touch it, that is) would be to the effect that, under no circumstances would the torture of a member of your family ever be justified. But if the torture of a member of your family would never be justified, then why would the torture of anyone else ever be justified? We can easily repeat the same thought-experiment for cases of war as well. Indeed. Mutatis mutandis, we can repeat it for every nasty human endeavor you care to mention. For example, when would it be justified to torture members of the Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Gonzales families? Before the American Government launches a war of aggression against a sovereign country, in order to determine whether the Goverment is lying about its expressed reasons for launching the war? And when would other states and non-state actors be justified in attacking targets within sovereign U.S. territory? And so on. This is just another version of Chomsky's reductio ad absurdum (mentioned earlier). But remember: The reduction to absurdity works in some cases only because it works in all cases. Otherwise, we're all goners.
"War," New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia Online "Torture and the Americans," ZNet, June 18, 2004 "Torture and the Americans II," ZNet, June 18, 2004

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Nclucas, Natty at Dec 07, 2005 08:56 AM

The Korea example was YOUR example. I never said “read the Korea example,” I was talking about his theoretical observations about a situation wherein one country or group has to decide whether or not to use violence based on expected consequences, which is what you were talking about. In the case of Korea, which was YOUR example, not Walzer's, the war under just war theory would be unjustified because of the expected consequences: violent reprisal by the United States.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Nclucas, Natty at Dec 07, 2005 08:33 AM

If you are actually at all interested in “the realities of actual situations,” which I've seen no evidence of so far, I don't understand how you can say theory is “not of any practical use.” If you had the slightest understanding of, for example, science, you would know that theories and theory is essential in the understanding and progress of scientific knowledge. If we are to reject theory, it seems to me that we are rejecting some of the most important elements of the development of science, and knowledge generally. The equation of theory with religion is a tremendous error. You could argue that just war theory should be rejected not because it is a “theory,” which I think is patently ridiculous, but because it is based on the notion of morality, which is largely a subjective judgment, hard to justify rationally. I'm not sure how much I accept as far as the notions of justice, morality, etc. go at this point. My main concern is that I'm not sure if I can find a rational reason for being in favor of justice. However, it might be instructive to ask: why oppose war? For what reason are you against war if you don't believe it's a matter of morality or justice? What is the REASON for you to be against war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, etc.?

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 07, 2005 08:15 AM

"Decide that it is, in fact, just. Go shoot babies in the face. For profit. Feel better?" Exactly.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Dec 07, 2005 04:04 AM

Yeah Graeme, that's what I think regarding WMD's also. I have for a long time thought that the goal in the mideast has never been stability. That in fact the goal is to destabilize it, ie like Israel/palistine, Iraq etc. for a number of reasons: a) instability helps legitimize dictitorial rule which helps fleece the oil. b) Decreases likelihood of a democracy to form and therefore of an equitible distribution of oil revenues, which would lead to a demand for more of their own resourses. c) keeps open the possibility of a regime change if someone gets "uppity" and demands more $ or of the "world's oil". D) Allows the west to play the dictators by making them filthy rich while the rest of their populations starve. E) Instability is self fulfilling and self perpetuating, so it is easier than other forms of economic empire. So, as you can see by keeping the mideast in chaos is very benificial to the maintenance of hegemony. Therefore, the US's main goal in Iraq is to all an insergency to forment and hopefully spread to other unmanegeable dicators (read Iran). This also makes Bush appear as if he is doing something to combat terrorism, which he in no way wants to stop, but I'll save that for another diatribe.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Cmzimmermann, Cmzimmermann at Dec 06, 2005 20:49 PM

Graeme, You wrote: 'Trying to come up with a perfect scenario for a just war is like counting angels on the head of a pin.' You also mention that you think that arguments for a just war are useless. I think that you are missing the point of establishing criteria by which a particular war or the decision to go to war (or to act violently) would be considered just and justified. It is not a question of coming up with a perfect scenario, rather such criteria would create a framework in which the morality of violent conflict can be treated and discussed. It is a way of developing some sort of commonly recognized set of guidelines. This is similar to the criteria that establishes the legality of war as set out in the UN Charter. If you have a moment, please check out my brief attempt at such criteria: http://post-thought.blogspot.com/2005/08/continuation-of-politics-by-other.html

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Dec 06, 2005 05:02 AM

Hey, this is a bit of topic or more accurately off discussion but, what do you think about the US government and WMD's? That is, do you think that anyone in the admin actually thought that Iraq had WMD's? Tariq Ali makes the claim that if they had them we would not have invaded because he would have used them against our troops and killed thousands instantly. It makes some sense but, maybe the admin really does not give a rats ass about soldier lives. It would have really advanced their global agenda of spreading democracy and illiminating threats if he did have them. So what do you think?

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Nclucas, Natty at Dec 05, 2005 09:43 AM

“We can discuss theories for hours if you want, or we can deal in realities.” You haven't even discussed the theory, you've just made some rather mindless assertions. “Trying to come up with a perfect scenario for a just war is like counting angels on the head of a pin.” Look, the goal isn't to come up with a “perfect scenario for a just war.” Also, your argument is pretty clearly illogical, on the most elementary levels. ”So which is it, read this scenario or don't read it? I couldn't care less what Walzer has to say about it anyway.” I said read his theoretical observations, skip over the real life examples. There's no contradiction there. If you don't care about perhaps the most important book written on the subject, I'm not really sure why you are arguing about it in the first place. Yeah, when they talk about “just wars,” they're talking about definition 1. Not the second definition. Walzer talks specifically about the kind of scenario that you mentioned: Korea would be unjustified in attacking the U.S. because of the expectable consequences. That's not very complex, it's pretty simple really.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Nclucas, Natty at Dec 05, 2005 07:08 AM

“Jonas: I think ‘just war theory' is mainly nonsense because the conditions you list are virtually impossible to meet in a real war.” This is again a perfect example of the “irrelevant conclusion” fallacy. Yeah, we may agree the conditions are virtually impossible to meet (actually I don't really think so), but that doesn't disprove just war theory. Your example doesn't prove anything, except that a war by North Korea would be unjustified because of the expected consequences. Read Walzer, he talks this exact scenario. Don't read Walzer's examples, they generally do not follow from his theoretical and ethical observations.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Vos, Quinlan at Dec 05, 2005 06:14 AM

I don't like to comment on the ZNet things, there are too many rightists and leftists and other assorted clowns who comment there for it to be worthwhile. I am completely uninterested in whether or not some war can or cannot be labeled "just", debating about what constitutes a "real humanitarian intervention" is absolutely boring. I do not care whether or not any particular action by some state is "just" or "unjust", my goal is to bring down capital-state as soon as possible, it's entirely irrelevant to discuss things like the justice or injustice of something the state does. The state, like all institutions of concentrated power, acts in its own interests. The interests of the state are directly contrary to my own interests. Thus I oppose it, not just any particular actions which it may do, but the institution itself. With regards to non-state actors, like the EZLN, I think it's worth mentioning that they haven't carried out any real military action in about 12 years, so they're probably a poor example of a "war against the government of Mexico." I think you misrepresented Ward Churchill, I do not think he argues that it is "impossible" to have nonviolent change, but if that is what he is saying, it'd be interesting, if "nonviolent change" were possible, to give ANY historical precedent for something like that, anything at all. The truth is that there are none. And Michael Walzer and all of the "decent leftists" at Dissent can go screw themselves.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Nclucas, Natty at Dec 05, 2005 05:53 AM

"Now, that doesn't mean that some wars are *necessary.* But *just,* never." What you're thinking of is "good," not "just." If war is necessary, that means there is a justifiable reason to go to war. War is never good. "NC simply states common wisdom when he says its ok to fight to stop a greater evil - though the reason why NC's opinions give weight to a truth that is obvious to any 4 year old is beyond me." It's obviously not that "obvious" to people who are pacifists, as David Peterson now appears to be. There's no need to be condescending.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 05, 2005 03:38 AM

"This is what we have been saying." Maybe what you have been thinking - I'm not so sure you speak for everyone. I "spectated" an anti-war march in DC in the run up to the war (took the metro in, walked around, watched the people, read the signs, chatted with a few.). And I definitely got the strong impression from many people I chatted with that they had not thought about anything past the "hypocricy" angle. If they did then they were very lazy about communicating/articulating it because all of their focus was on the past, and our guilt. NC simply states common wisdom when he says its ok to fight to stop a greater evil - though the reason why NC's opinions give weight to a truth that is obvious to any 4 year old is beyond me. Therefore, it is obvious that those who opposed the war felt that the rule by Saddam was a lesser evil than the war. It seems to me these arguments could be grounded in body counts, money/resources wasted, etc. However, the majority of anti-war messages consisted of generalized moralising like "war is not the answer" (when we all know that, sometimes, it damn well is) without ever saying WHY it wasn't the right answer for this time and place.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Nclucas, Natty at Dec 04, 2005 12:25 PM

As far as Chomsky is concerned, it would be useful to hear what he actually has to say on the subject: "there are people of course who go much further and say that one must oppose violence in general, quite apart from any possible consequences. I think that such a person is asserting one of two things. Either he's saying that the resort to violence is illegitimate even if the consequences are to eliminate a greater evil; or he's saying that under no conceivable circumstances will the consequences ever be such as to eliminate a greater evil. The second of these is a factual assumption and it's almost certainly false. One can easily imagine and find circumstances in which violence does eliminate a greater evil. As to the first, it's a kind of irreducible moral judgment that one should not resort to violence even if it would eliminate a greater evil. And these judgments are very hard to argue. I can only say that to me it seems like an immoral judgment...So I can't accept a general and absolute opposition to violence, only that resort to violence is illegitimate unless the consequences are to eliminate a greater evil."

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Nclucas, Natty at Dec 04, 2005 12:04 PM

I would also recommend reading Michael Walzer's book Just and Unjust wars. Whatever you may think of Walzer (I personally despise him), he gives a very good introduction to what standards a war must meet to be considered "just." His examples often do not follow from his theoretical observations, such as his shameless apologetics for the state of Israel (he argues that the Six Day War was a legitimate defense against Arab states which were about to wipe Israel of the map, the usual bilge), but it's still worth reading. I must confess I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue. It seems to me that you are stating that because the "humanitarian interventions" undertaken by the United States have been basically imperialist in nature, we should reject just war theory. If so, you are committing the logical fallacy of Irrelevant Conclusion; which means an argument that is given to prove one thing instead proves something else. We both agree that the U.S. war in Kosovo was terrible, but that doesn't in any way disprove just war theory.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Nclucas, Natty at Dec 04, 2005 11:25 AM

We don't say anything to them, because "the New Humanitarian-types" are unlikely to listen. It's quite true that those types are responsible for justifying domination and aggression by the United States, and that the military interventions undertaken by the United States are not in any way "humanitarian." I fail to see how this is an argument against just wars. I do disagree with people like Ward Churchill, I believe it is possible to have nonviolent change, I just think there are times when violence may be necessary. There are, to my knowledge, two examples of states undertaking something that could accurately be called a "humanitarian intervention" since WWII: India's invasion in support of East Pakistan in 1971, and Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia in 1979. I would strongly suggest looking into these, as they are highly relevant and are pretty clearly humanitarian. Furthermore, there have been many more examples of wars carried out by people, rather than states, which could be called just, such as the Zapatista struggle I mentioned above.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Peterson, David at Dec 04, 2005 05:28 AM

Keir et al.: I believe you've loaded one side of the comparison---the "other nations of the world [responding] in kind...by launching indiscriminate attacks against civilian targets with the intent of coercing the (non-military) population into total physical and cultural submission...." Nevertheless. We are in fundamental agreement. And I for one would never prescribe that other states and non-state actors to do unto the Americans (or the British, the Spanish, etc.) as they in fact have done unto others. By the way, this is what Chomsky means by employing the reductio ad absurdum against those New Humanitarian-types who like to argue---along with the current regime in the White House, let us not forget---that the world ought to "establish a right to intervene against war [and] oppression" even before they occur. The absurdity being that once the first link in the chain of pre-emptive intervention is started, no one will escape it, and everyone will be guilty. So that we always must suspect hidden motives lurking behind the expressed morality of the Right-to-Interveners, as they would never accept that the same principle applies equally to them. But, clearly, we face the dilemma that for a lot of people---and in particular those who are used to dishing out violence on a grand scale, rather than taking it---that none of the expressed principles really matter, ultimately. That, in fact, all that matters is the power to dish it out. And to call this just. Or, worse, simply not to worry about it. Now. What do we say to them?

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 04, 2005 02:57 AM

"There is also ample evidence that the CIA created his political party, and that the United States supported him while he committed the crimes for which he should have been overtrhown for" One of the reasons I supported the war in 2003 was precisely besause, having made him, we had a responsbility to help unmake him. This anti-war argument never appealed to me - Is it hypocrtical to clean up a mess you made? Is it okay to let loose a rabid dog into someones house and then say "Time to go and let them handle their own affairs"? Of course, you could say we have done a poor job of "cleaning up" the place, and perhaps our efforts were doomed from the start - 2 years later I wish I hadn't been so trusting when it came to W's motive or ability (both are deficient). Still, the simple argument "We created this mess so why clean it up now?" is obviouslly deficient too. Most people are raised to beleive that it is precisely the people who caused the mess who are obligated to fix it. Go ahead and disagree on the method of fixing it, or the practical realtiy of our ability to fix it, but don't dismiss the notion of fixing it because of vauge notions of "hypocricy". Its both intellectually vaccuous and morally deficient itself.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Peterson, David at Dec 04, 2005 02:45 AM

Friends: On the subject of so-called just wars: How about a case in which the world's pre-eminent superpower fabricates "intelligence" about a severely diminished third-rate power's possession of certain weapons systems, the superpower ultimately launching an invasion of the third-rate power, without Security Council approval, and in clear violation of the UN Charter as well as customary international law, such as it is? If other states around the world were then to come to the defense of the aggrieved party, even launching reprisal attacks against targets within the domestic territory of the aggressor, would this count as a just war?

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Cacioppo, Jonas at Dec 04, 2005 01:20 AM

No, I do not agree that "there are no just wars". The school of philosophy known as just war theory lays out the criteria for such a war: the cause, the intent, authority, proportionality, whether it is a "last resort," the probability of victory, the existence of an "actual or imminent" threat and, lastly, a sharp line between combatants and civilians. Let us allow an example of the conditions for a just war, as a hypothetical: North Korea invades the South, obliterating Seoul and taking port cities like Pusan by force. A clear violation of the cease-fire agreement and UN mandate. A clear war crime, as many civilians are indiscriminately massacred along with South Korean military forces. So, do the US forces there take up their arms along with the South Korean fighters and invade the North? I think that would be a just war, albeit one that may involve nearly apocalyptic consequences.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Man, Laughing at Dec 03, 2005 10:29 AM

Yes, Yakov there was ample evidence that Saddam should have been removed from power. There is also ample evidence that the CIA created his political party, and that the United States supported him while he committed the crimes for which he should have been overtrhown for (not just evedence, its a fact). That said, there is much better evidence for removing Bush from office, something that you never point out because it not only trumps your argument, but further erodes the facist underpinnings of your arguments. Yakov, no one on this board has once failed to challenge and defeat the pre-war evidence for attacking Iraq (with the exception of you Calvin, and Abyss). Moreover youre the one engaging in dishonesty when you claim that we had a right to attack Iraq. Also, this is about overthrowing capitolism. Happy now? How many times does it have to be grinded into your face Yakov. Your argumes fail, whenever you come here you get stomped. Isnt it about time you started to consider the possiblity that your wrong?

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Nclucas, Natty at Dec 03, 2005 10:05 AM

To claim that groups like ANSWER are the only ones involved in the anti-war movement is obviously false. Opposition to the war took place throughout the world, creating what the New York Times called the world's "second superpower." So while ANSWER may have helped to organize a couple of demonstrations in the U.S., it's ridiculous to assume they're "organizing the anti-war movement." In fact, the war was opposed by some of the most well-respected people in the world. The Pope John Paul II condemned the war, calling it immoral. Nelson Mandela said the war was about oil and claimed it would lead to a "holocaust" in Iraq. So it makes little sense to believe that opposition to the war was limited to obscure stalinist groups, when the Catholic Church and other organizations were an important part of the organizing. However, I disagree that wars are never justified. There are some pretty obvious hypothetical situations I could construct to show how a war could be justified, but I don't think it's worth the effort. Many of these situations could be applied to the real world, in certain instances. For example, I don't think the Zapatistas struggle in Chiapas, which could be considered a war against the government of Mexico, is unjustified. Pacifism makes little sense, to me at least. That's not to say that nonviolence can't have any effect in bringing about social change, however, but there are times when violent action will be justified.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Peterson, David at Dec 03, 2005 08:11 AM

Friends: The bottom-most line is that I reject all attempts to rule the world by force. Or, more locally, to threaten or resort to the use of force to compel others to act against their will. Neither the former Iraqi regime nor the current regime in Washington agree with me on this one. Nor do hordes of others. Clearly, the world is a worse place to live because of it.

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Dec 02, 2005 05:03 AM

Yakov, there are many diverse people against this illegal war. Yes, some are opposed to capitalism, that is not a crime. Unless we have made it illegal to hold certain political orientation. Sure I'll bite; not sure what "evidence" you are refering to, but the reason for going in was WMD's which there were none. So was that a lie or not?

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Re: War and the Warrior Classes

By Bok, Yakov at Dec 01, 2005 22:53 PM

The bottom line is that there is and was ample evidence that supported and supports removing Saddam Hussein from power. The anti-war movement dislikes that evidence not only because it trumps their arguements, but it further erodes the socialist underpinnings of the movement itself. The anti-war movement, by failing to address this, and ignore the evidence, is engaging in dishonesty. Say what you're really about - attempting to dismantle capitalism. After all, it's groups like ANSWER that are organizing the anti-war movement, not the Quakers. I'm sorry, but the evidence is against the anti-war movement, plain and simple.

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