Do you know of Pancho Villa? Or about the Banana Republics? How about William Walker and his plan to conquer Central America, and then resigned just to conquer Nicaragua and turn it into a slave state?

US has long financed the governments to allow the US and other "hacendados" the rights to exploit the natural resources of the region, or every region, or flat out done so for control of key mercantil trade routes, or control of the region.

The thing is, that reaching the year 2006, and US long sponsorship to the dictatorships that you've talked about, that the region is as it is. If the sponsorships didn't last for so long, the puppet goverments/dictators financed by the US and the oligarcs, would've been long gone: a perfect example in El Salvador is La Matanza by Maximiliano Martinez, Anastasio Aquino, El Mozote in the recent civil war, and most recently the fascist regime of ARENA-PCN that just rig elections to win. Maybe, if such sponsorship ceased, El Salvador could be right now a truly democratic and developed state.

And you know something? D'Aubuisson studied in the School of Americas', was the founder of ARENA, ARENA is the oligarchy owned party. Just the existance of such party and PCN should be considered a violation to the Peace Accords. The reason why CIA finally decided to support Duarte, was because D'Aubuisson was too extreme even for them. Yet Duarte's presidential term was sabotaged by the oligarchy, with such things as the agrarian reform ruined, simply put, he was a president of a nation that he didn't control nor could control. And now present days, USA still supports ARENA, directly intervening into the democratic process of the country,, which is illegal, in name of ARENA. And more than 12 murders a day, high cost of life, constant migration of thousands should refute completely your false assertion that "El Salvador must be living it's most prosperous era". It is simply false.

Also, according to the UN's Truth Commision: over 96% of the human rights violations carried out during the war were committed by the military or the paramilitary death squads, while 3.5% were committed by the guerrilas. The point is, that the ogvernment AGAIN proved to be the genocidal maniacs and engaged on brutalizing every opponent, disappeaing them, exiling them. You couldn't even fight such a regime through diplomatic measures. The offensive was response to the government's such extreme measures.

 

 

But like I said, does the
Salvadoran hate the common (non-white supremacists and the other types
of wrong) US citizen?

No*

---

 

Just a correction. Also, I would urge people to study the real nature behind the developed world's supposed "anti-Western, anti-Americanism". What should be said is "anti-colonialism", "anti-fascim", "anti-exploitation". If people read about Islamic nationalism, pan-Arabism, Arab nationalism, Communism, liberation theology, Christian Democracy, people would learn that those movements/ideologies have become famous because they are movements of independance, against the oppressing movements that subjugated the different nations. It is in a way a "global shout" against global tyranny.

And I can tell you that even though El Salvador has had an identity problem since old, being the bastard children of conquistadores, and having a heavily class-tight society, in which there was descrimination against meztisos, natives, and african slaves (to the point where meztisos wanting to earn the creole's approval also became discriminate, to the point that Martinez even banned people from African lineage to be in the country, call Meztisos the Irish of Central America, in reference to the discrimination Irish received in North America when they arrived and how they fought to be accepted as "whites"), I can tell you that as of now, El Salvador's hatred is gear to the same thing USA citizen's hate (or should hate too), the US government, the predatory corporations, the foreign policy and all the misery it has created world wide (All of Latin America being a massive project to control the region by the US, and fight against... communism). But in general, Salvadoreans do not hate those that treat em right, don't marginilaze us, don't treat us like animals, do not allow impunity to go rampant, fight for social justice, fight for the respect of civil liberties and human rights. But like I said, does the Salvadoran hate the common (non-white supremacists and the other types of wrong) US citizen. We are just recentful towards the government that created a hell in our country and even sponsored it, to the point that the Salvadoran Diaspora began, and salvadoreans are forced to leave their country to subexist.

 

 

(this was supposed to be my original post, but it seems like it wasn't posted)

 

You come to me as a very honest person, something that



USA desperately needs to do in it's foreign policy,



and something that El Salvador could really use to get



away from the cesspool that the Fascist Regimes that



rule us have created, with the OFFICIAL Fascist Axis



of Evil (ARENA-PCN-PDC) and the genocidal puppet



governments before it.







After the civil war, ARENA has used anti-democratic



measures to win the elections: instilling terror on



the population by insinuating that if they didn't win



Salvadoreans would be deported (etc., accompanied by



USA as accomplice), retaining international donations



to use them as party campaign incentives, purchasing



votes, emitting false DUI's to minors by ARENA's



Juventud ARENERA recruiting, and so much more.







 







In my opinion, the only distinction between the war



times and the peace times is that ARENA hasn't



"openly" financed death squads (with US aid) to



exterminate opposition. Now, they choose to completely



manage state services with incompetence, to the point



that the PNC (Civil National Police) is incapable of



handling the rising crimes (made by the gangs, which



anyone knows is a product of both the



socio-economic/social injustice that the country lives



in, and US foreign policy deporting ASAP people with



criminal records, thus exporting the gangs to El



Salvador, who were regufees fleeing the civil war in



the first place but were never assimilated into



society). So the country is still engaged in an almost



unstoppable homicidal spree, by factions that ARENA



created as a byproduct of it's callous regime. This in



my opinion, to instill into the population the



apparent need of hiring the Private Security Business



which provides millions to ARENA members.







 







To top this, thanks to the extreme point that has been



reached, thanks to ARENA's incompetence and



unwillingness to finance the police properly, there



has been talks on the country to instill a regime of



State of Exception, by ARENA's cronny PCN, and talks



of the President of being willing to deploy soldiers



nationwide, and also talks of ARENA to impulse a so



called "Anti-Terrorism Cuban Law" in the country. I



believe this a con to militarize the nation and make



it very difficult to civilians excercise and demand



their liberties, or else be doomed as "breakers of



public peace", when protests are a gurantee against an



incompetently run goverment, and schemes to privitaze



(water, that is the essential service missing, along



with the national university and the Social Security



Service Institute).







 ARENA has also managed with incompetence every other



service in order to promote the need to privatize, and



make other institutes seem ineptly run (MARN- Natural



Resources Minister, the current Minister gave



permission to build a GOLF COURSE in one of the last



sylvan lungs of the city, the Minister is affiliated



to ARENA). The fascist Axis of Evil has recently



passed a legislative combo as a response to the NEEDED



and much delayed ratification of the OIT Conventions



the country needed to ratify in order to "benefit"



from the SG Plus. The legislative combo is designed to



limit/control/restrict syndicates from their movements



and in some cases from even forming, forbidding in



many cases even the act of protesting. And in this



country, the syndicates have been the vanguard defence



against predatory monopolistic privatization the



regime has engaged on. And I reiterate, what the



goverment has set is a series of monopolies, reason



why such things as having Central America's 2nd most



expensive electricity go uncontested unchallenged. And



we don't only have the second most expensive



electricity in the region, but the companies have



"created a crisis" and want to further increase the



cost.







 







So as you can see, Terrorism in El Salvador still



continues. The regime has been establishing a new



framework to commit fascist/anti-democratic actions



while appearing as flat out "legal". And the United



States, as always, retains the Cold War framework to



support such evil regime in the country, and spread



"terror" worldwide with the face of "spreading



democracy world wide to create a new world order"



(like father like son, same reasoning Bush Sr. used to



invade Irak, former greatest ally in the Middle East



to fight against communism and Islamic



nationalism--all currents ascending as response



against oppression/colonization, along with Christian



Democracy and many other currents). Duplicity is what



I call US's foreign policy.







 







Other problems facing the country (El Salvador): since



the dolarization, everything costs dollars, but people



still earn in colones. The minimum wage is not enough



to satisfy the basic needs of the population. This



creates the massive immigrations of today, as opposed



to escape from genocide by the government. The double



irony of it all, is that the country is so badly



managed that remittances have become the backbone of



the country's economy, and despite of the low wages



and expensive life expenditures, migrants from



Nicaragua/Honduras come yearly to do jobs that



Salvadoreans won't do. Why? Because when they return



to their country, the measly dollars that they earn



that in El Salvador are not enough, turn into millions



back in their hometowns.So the immigration is



sponsored, encouraged by the state in order to mantain



the marginal consumist society they've created, and in



order to get rid "peacefully" of OPPOSITION, or rather



anyone that would vote against them.







 So without remittances the country would collapse,



thanks to the oligarchy, and the consumist society



that they have tried to mantain in the country would



cease to exist, destroying the "illusion" of



prosperity the government has created by building



MALLS to-and-fro around the nation.







 







Please continue being an honest man in your combat



against fascism. I know 100% that El Salvador could



use a man like you... too bad that the government



controlled by the elites would probably hire a hitman



to silence you, as they've done in the past. Or



sabotage any reform attempts, and then just call them



a failure (like what happened with Duarte's



presidencial term and the Agrarian Reform). 







 







Any new regime that comes to power, finally emerging



victorious from all the corruption, will inherit a



very sick and agonizing state: an immensely indebted



state, one dismembered with all services privitzed,



with an understaffed/underpayed/unequipped police, and



the oligarcs will just flee to retire in the USA,



their bank accounts filled with the nations money



bursting, drinking a martini in some hotel room



laughing at how they "Got Away with It (raping a



nation)".







 







Seriously. Do stay honest, do not let money coerce your



integrity. 

 

The current regime promised foreign ivnestment, etc. anything and everything to privitaze with the free market, but the only things to come to El Salvador are sweat-shops. Places where people are ENSLAVED, and people cannot demand ANYTHING or else the sweat-shops just fire them and hire other "desperate people" willing to be submitted to slavery, or in some cases just cease operations competely and just MOVE to another country. Unfortunately, thanks to the current regime, that is the only type of labour my fellow compatriots can do, being the unskilled labour market the greatest market in the region, with analphabetism still found. So what I'm trying to say, that the regime has us (the population) easily exploitable, because one we do not know our civil rights, or we are in a position that it is impossible or unwanted to demand our basic human rights with fear of reprisal (they want us to comform with slavery). Either way, because what proliferates is the "unskilled labor" sector, people are by default incapacitated by the state to perform tasks that require greater skill or even expertise. 

With bad education, monopolies, etc. the regime make us exploitable, but also sponsors the brain drain of academics or whatever that see here no future. Small to medium companies are a difficulty to mantain, and even with the TLC it is hard to import/export such things into your small businesses and prolong your existance. 

 

American women are oppressed under the American patriarchy, says the Left. Yet, as Flynn points out, “If women in the United States live under a ‘patriarchy,' what term could accurately describe the situation faced by women in other parts of the world?” Noting some of the truly patriarchal traditions practiced in many countries throughout the world today, such as genital mutilation, arranged marriages, forced abortions, and “honor killings,” The Left perceives that America as an imperialistic, power-hungry, and greedy nation. Just the opposite is true. “The major wars involving the United States since it became the world's preeminent military power,” Flynn writes, “have been fought to prevent empires-Nazi imperialism, Japanese imperialism, Communism, after all these wars, America's territory remained essentially the same.” Flynn also notes that for such an “imperialistic” nation America donates large sums of its citizens' money to foreign countries in need. In addition to giving far and away the highest amount of money to foreign countries, the U.S. also gives one of the highest percentages of GDP for foreign aid. Having received very little in the form of foreign aid itself, the U.S. has proven time and again to be the world's most generous donor of foreign aid. Have we made mistakes? Sure. But there isn't a day that goes by where I don't say: God Bless America and God Bless our Troops.

Undoing the Lies. I urge everyone here to read this book: "Why the Left Hates America" to get a truer sense of reality. Here are some valuable excerpts that I hope The Abyss reads: While the Left espouses the belief that America is inherently racist, millions of “immigrants of color,” as Flynn points out, “flock to our shores and borders by the millions instead of spending their lives being ruled by people of the same hue or ethnicity.” The notion that slavery and racism are uniquely Western is one of the Left's favorite and most repeated mantras. Yet when one's judgment is guided by facts, rather than by obscure political ideologies, what is quickly realized is that it was not slavery that was unique to Western Civilization; nor was it the mere abolition of slavery that was unique, but rather the abolition of slavery by eligible slaveholders. As Flynn points out, Western Civilization is indeed the only culture in the history of the world to do such a thing.

"What has left wing got to do with butchering and impoverishing innocent people? " The Abyss - what is your problem? It seems like the name describes you perfectly though, where your taking this debate to. Your hatred of America and even the American people themselves is astounding. The truth is, Salvador was a basketcase long before America came in. Chomsky and the Far Left loves to simply complex subjects but reality never is quite that simple (West Bad Everyone Else Good, Third World Victim, US can do no right) There were peasant uprsings, brutal dictatorships, revolts, and all of that well before the US ever came into the picture. The US just got caught in a very difficult positions. Also is the question of balance. Where do we see the Communist atrocities committed by the guerillas? The fact that the US supported the moderate Duarte over the far-right wing ARENA? And where is El Salvador now? Probably enjoying the most free, most democratic and most prosperous era in its history. Where does the praise for the US come in for that? It doesn't.

To pre-empt being called "anti-American" - despite the fact that "anti-Americanism" is virtually non-existent in the world (though, that may soon change, if things continue as they are) - I must explain what I mean by the term "Americans". When I use the word “Americans" in a negative sense, I am not referring to individual American citizens (I am happy to be a friend to an American citizen - one who's civilized, that is); rather, I'm referring to a class - albeit, a very large class! - of people who have chosen to identify themselves very strongly with a group they call "Americans". This group stands apart from the rest of the world, and even apart from a sizable portion of its own population. It encompasses right-wing Christians, the elite, as well as vast swathes of “ordinary” citizens. Members of this group do not necessarily care about each other - though that is the impression they must give. Some members are tightly bound to this group, whilst others are on the edges, where the force of attraction is weaker, and the effect of propaganda diminished.

Roger_the_anti-chomsky writes: "Could it be that Salvadorans, Vietnamese and Cubans love and admire America more than Left Wing Americans do?" What has left wing got to do with butchering and impoverishing innocent people? It's to do with having a conscience, Roger. Something you don't seem to have. Could it be that Americans wallow in their own filth. AMERICA IS GREAT! WE'RE THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD! YEAH, DUDE! AMERICA IS SO KOOOOOOL!!! How old is Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn - 12? How many more people have to die for Americans to get it into their thick skulls that taking life is not a game. So arrogant, so filled with pride, Americans just won't listen. When confronted with the horrors, all Americans can say is how much they LOVE AMERICA - and, look, here are some greedy, selfish foreigners who "love" America, too! Americans aren't just misinformed, they are deeply misanthropic. Material possessions and ignorance is all their culture values. GOD BLESS AMERICA. BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WILL!

Is Chomsky serious? If he had a good life in some other country, he'd emigrate to America would he, leaving all his friends and family behind? Howard Zinn also lacks the will to resist peer pressure. Zinn said (I'm paraphrasing): “The American government hides the facts from the public, because they fear the reaction. That shows how GREAT the American people are.” When people are brimming with pride, they don't bother to question what they are told, or the “facts” they are given. Unfortunately, Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn – among many others - are too full of pride THEMSELVES (about their nation) to realise this. "I think figuring out how to stop it is the best way to get un-culpable." Yes, I accept that America needs a well-funded independent and progressive media - as does every country. At least, then, those Americans who are "prone" to finding out the truth - however much it hurts - will be able to do so.

I think what's also relevant is the dog-like, attack reflex of many Americans whenever you give them the unpleasant truth. It is this aggressive response that partly explains why Americans do not know what is going on in the world. America is a religion, and, as anyone who has met a deeply pious person will know, you dare not say anything negative about a religion. Whenever America is attacked by a hostile group or country (a rare event!), Americans see red and become fixated on one thing: retaliation! Bombing Afghanistan and Iraq was an act of retaliation. What actually took place – and the number of innocent people murdered/put at risk - is irrelevant to the American people. Someone had to pay for 9/11, and someone did. Now, the American people can go back to what they were doing, secure in the knowledge that no one who lays a finger on America gets away with it. Pride also keeps people away from the truth. And the Americans seem to wallow in pride. Even Chomsky succumbs to it, calling America "the greatest country in the world," which is why, he says, he lives there.

bigjohn writes: "I wanted to comment on TheAbyss's perspective" Thank you for responding without attacking or insulting me. ;) "However, in spite of our relative ignorance and arrogance, I think we are similar to other global populations in this." Probably true in respect to the wealthy, "democratic" countries, if you are looking at it in terms of the apathy of the masses. However, two wrongs don't make a right. When Germany caused the world troubles sixty years ago, did other countries - nations that weren't paragons of virtue! - stand by and excuse the German people? It wasn't just the government. The German people stayed silent in the face of what was going on, allowing Hitler to escalate his brutal policies. Germans only expressed regret after their country was destroyed. The Americans, I fear, might be going down the same path. Until they, personally, are made to pay for the actions of their government, they won't give a damn what their country is doing. "Chomsky has observed that states are violent to the extent that they are powerful, and we live in the most power state in the world. I think that's a relevant thought."

Roger_the_anti-chomsky writes: "Could it be that Salvadorans, Vietnamese and Cubans love and admire America more than Left Wing Americans do?" Could it be that people are people, many are selfish and cruel, many lack the impulse or imagination to challenge the system, and admire not America, but rather what they THINK it can offer them: material prosperity and freedom from oppression. America's a bully. If you can be with the bully, rather than your own crowd, you might escape victimization. You might even prosper. That explains why so many Mexicans - among others - risk their lives crossing the border into America each and every day. Finally, when some people say they love America, what they really mean is they love the community of people they're around.

The United States will become a predominantly Hispanic semi-tropical lot of Wal-Marts & McDonalds and not much else. Excluding CEO's living in Greenwich Village CT, Cambridge Ma, and little penthouses in south Manhattan who are largely responsible for this sorry state of affairs. And the only trees growing in Central Park will be palm trees all the others will be dead. Now that global warming is beginning to impinge on the conscience of the man in the street as Dr. James Hanson (NASA) predicted. So those sybaritic CEO's and their heirs weren't kidding when they said they would "nullify the customs of the ages" including the immemorial seasons themselves.

Granted that what Chomsky says about the depraved institutional structure of the United States and other countries is correct and that the state/corporate housekeepers of this corrupt system are "moral monsters" is true it does not follow that the "people" or the "working class" are any better. Although I admire Chomsky's scientific accomplishments and his challenging of illegitimate authority it seems to me that every recommendation he makes as to the correction of the above malfeasances is based on a projection of his own ideals unto a populace that is either knowingly hostile to them or belligerent about it's own ignorance. Americans want Wal-Mart, McDonalds, TV, Christianity and the Harley Davidson stench of gas fumes in the air. And they don't need goading from their masters, it's of their own free will and choice. Chomsky is a talented man and talent is individual and non-distributable. And revolutionaries always realize that the bulk of average mankind do not share their insights. Of course he would bring up something like slavery in reply; and say how impossible it must have seemed to end slavery. But what ended slavery was the industrial revolution not "popular struggle". And the industrial revolution was the result of the genius of a few white, male, European scientists and inventors. The industrial revolution created it's own problems through the misuse by average mankind of the fruits of individual genius. And so it goes.

Now, as I stated in another post. It's quite ironic how these people #1 Chose to live in this country and in many cases risked DEATH to do so and #2 Are PROUD to be living in this country and LOVE this country if HALF of what Chomsky says is correct. Those opinions are not exclusive of immigrants either (who some rather elitist and hypocritical lefties accuse of being part of the "wealthy" or "oligarchy" while they live the good life in privileved America) that attitude is also shared in the home countries themselves. In Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc those same very countries that Chomsky rails about, have ELECTED the Pro-US, US-backed candidates that are with America and President Bush on the War on Terror, and on free market policies. (Lefties can't stand to be told that) Why? Because it flies in the face of reason: If you have been oppressed and live in a democratic society, why on earth would you continously, and very often, OVERWHELMINGLY vote for the candidate and the party that supports and is supported by your oppressor? Check out the recent elections in El Salvador if you don't believe me. (And by the way, this was the FMLN's BEST showing in El Salvador ever! It was still a landslide.) Could it be that Salvadorans, Vietnamese and Cubans love and admire America more than Left Wing Americans do?

"I have found that Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Palestinians, Indonesians, Vietnamese, etc, etc. despite having more that enough reasons to hate ALL of us, don't hate Americans at all. In most cases they understand... " That's an understatement. I have spoken to many recent immigrants you have just mentioned, Vietnamese and Cuban in particular, and they not only do not "hate" us Americans, but in fact LOVE us, our country, our culture, and are VERY thankful to be living in this country and to be called Americans. Many Vietnamese I know have patriotic hats, T-shirts or bumper stickers with phrases like "USA" or "Freedom Isn't Free" Most that I know, and polls confirm this at least with Cuban and Vietnamese, are conservative, traditional and mostly Republican.

The Washington Post has a good article on Negroponte in today's paper: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52001-2005Mar20.html?sub=AR Registration required (but worth it)

I worked with a young woman (probably 24?) from El Salvador for several months in 2003-2004. We occasionally discussed politics in Central America. She, coming from a reasonably affluent & educated family, expressed her wonder-- this stuff, of course, ain't taught in El Salvador. She laughed because she had to go to college in America to hear how horribly we had screwed them over, within the reach of her childhood memories.

AP2K: "It is lucky for us that people in other countries are less ignorant and can make the distinction between US citizens and US government/military." That's right. American citizens as opposed to those aliens from Venus who have occupied the White House, Congress, taken over the Pentagon, the intelligence services, the media, Wall Street, and who carry out military operations abroad. VENUSIANS, with a totally different genome to AMERICANS. Americans, you should note, are innocent, pure, naive and artless; poor lost souls in a violent, bloodthirsty country controlled by squat, twitching, blue men from Venus.

Tom: "...America was huge, it was a giant. It swam through the seas eating up all the littler countries - drinking them up as it went along. We were eating up the world, boy, and that's why the world rose up and put an end to us. So I'm not contradicting myself. America was great like a whale - it was giant and majestic, but it stank and was a killer. Lots of fish died to make it so big. Now haven't I always taught you that?" **** "2047: for 60 years America has been quarantined after a devastating nuclear attack. For the small community of San Onofre on the West Coast, life is a matter of survival: living simply on what the sea and land can provide, preserving what knowledge and skills they can in a society without mass communications. Until the men from San Diego arrive, riding the rails on flatbed trucks and bringing news of the new American Resistance. And Hank Fletcher and his friends are drawn into an adventure that marks the end of childhood..." THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson

m.considine - I agree fully and I think this is true for a lot of nations that are or were oppressed by US foreign policy. It is lucky for us that people in other countries are less ignorant and can make the distinction between US citizens and US government/military. I have found that Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Palestinians, Indonesians, Vietnamese, etc, etc. despite having more that enough reasons to hate ALL of us, don't hate Americans at all. In most cases they understand... If we could just learn from them and not hate all Muslims for 9/11, etc.

Martinez (by Pablo Neruda, from Canto General) Martinez, the quack from El Salvador, distributes flasks of multicolored remedies which the ministers accept with deep bows and scraping. The little vegetarian witch doctor passes his time prescribing in the palace while torturous hunger howls in the cane fields. Martinez then decrees: and in a few days twenty thousand assassinated peasants decompose in the villages that Martinez orders burned with ordinances of hygiene. Back in the Palace he returns to his syrups, and he receives the American ambassador's swift congratulations. "Western culture is safe," says he --- "western Christianity, and besides, good business, banana concessions and control of customs." And together they drink a long glass of champagne, while hot rain falls on the putrid gatherings of the charnel house. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html

What's interesting is that the Salvadorans I have met in this country love Americans--either they are not knowledgeable of our government's support of repressive regimes, or they don't equate this with the American people as a whole. Acutally I would say many Latin Americans like and respect--almost look up to--"Norte Americanos", while being widely opposed to our government policy.

@Jose: You may want to check out an article by Dennis Hans postet at commondreams.org some days ago.