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Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Paul Street at Nov 04, 2005

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I'm guessing that some of this blog's readers have already purchased the latest Noam Chomsky book - Imperial Ambitions (Metropolitan, 2005) a remarkable set of interviews with Chomsky (2003-2005) conducted by the award winning radio journalist David Barsaniam, who has a special gift for asking evocative questions that bring NC's unmatched brilliance to bear on numerous, urgent, and wide-ranging issues of interrelated contemporary, historical, domestic and global relevance. Somewhere in this excellent collection (currently sitting a few miles from my computer), there's an interesting exchange on a problem that seems to uncharacteristically baffle the conversants: why there's so much religious and particularly so much extreme religious belief in the U.S. It's a fascinating and important issue in a country whose "messianic militarist” (Ralph Nader's description) president once invoked “Christ” as his favorite political philosopher (“because he changed my heart”) and announced his imperialist war(s) on (of) terror and the Arab world as “a crusade.” A friend of school prayer and the death penalty and a religiously based opponent of abortion rights, gay rights, civil rights, evolutionary science, and stem-cell research, Bush is possibly the nation's most theocratic president to date. More to the mass-belief point, Bush finds critical electoral support among the highly mobilized group of Americans – equaling perhaps a third of the first “modern” nation's citizenry – who call themselves Fundamentalist Christians and who believe literally in such biblical prophecies as Armageddon, and the Second Coming. These beliefs, taken from the book of Revelation, “imply acceptance,” as the prolific Marxist geographer David Harvey has noted, “of the horrors of war (particularly in the Middle East) as a prelude to the achievement of God's will on earth." As various scholars have noted over recent decades, the high levels and often extreme nature of religious belief in the U.S. are more than a little counter-intuitive for the standard Western social-scientific thesis and observation that theological commitment and explanation tend to fade in direct positive relation to the advance of science and industry. The argument, I think (and no this is not my "field," for what that's worth), is that the frankly fantastic cosmology that lay at the pseudo-explanatory heart of religious thought is rooted largely in peoples' related senses of ignorance, mystery, and powerlessness regarding the workings of the natural world and the universe. By demystifiying and subduing (or seeming to subdue) so much of the natural world that had for so long haunted humanity and above all by opening the door for human dominance over much of that world (for better and/or worse and yes we are finding out what an illusion this "dominance" can be), the advance of "modern" technology and its handmaiden scientific explanation tend to enshrine glorious (or awful, depending on your perspective) self-active Human Agency, thereby de-throning Gods, Devils, spirits, goblins, spells, magic, and other such mysterious super-natural agents and powers. Fine, so why does the United States, which steps into the glorious (and/or grotesque) vanguard of nature-subordinating material modernization (replete with simply astonishing rates of industrialization and urbanization) through the march of the significantly science-based "second industrial revolution" (with related triumphs of mass production and managerial revolution) during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, exhibit such seemingly counter-intuitive widespread and extreme religious belief? America's religious and fundamentalism levels are simply “off the charts,” reminding Chomsky of a “developing” (presumably pre- industrial) nation. My working draft thesis has three parts, which I suppose are interrelated and combine to suggest that the nation's distinct political history is part of what's going on: 1. One of the reasons for relative non-belief (secularization) in modern Europe is the interrelated histories of feudalism, monarchy, and the Catholic Church, whereby Christianity became a significantly embedded and established exploiter institution at the heart of the old regime and a dedicated and transparent enemy of democratic revolution and the broad populace. This history favored anti-clericalism and related general suspicion of religious belief in much of Europe, the usual leading comparison region. The organized feudal and state churches of feudalism and absolutism helped discredit Christianity and helped determine anti- and non-religious strains in the heart of modern popular movements in the “Old World.” There was no real established church or comparable related feudal social order in the British North American “New World” and this made for a different religious history that did not tend to make popular and democratic movements anti-clerical or anti-religious to the same degree. Christianity or some bastardized versions thereof (the American great black activist and escaped slave Frederick Douglass wrote eloquently about the “wide difference” between the “pure, peaceable, and impartial Christianity of Christ” and the “corrupt, slaveholding, women-whipping, cradle-plundering, partial, and hypocritical Christianity of this land”) developed in America without the same tar of association with unjust aristocratic and related state power. 2. For various reasons that are the subject of a vast academic and other literature, the American historical, social, and political context and its leading actors (individual and collective capitalists) tends to militate against the sort of common-sense Marxian, laborite, and left-syndicalist --- broadly class-based --- explanations that European workers and intellectuals commonly (and I would say rightly) developed to make sense of ---- and communicate the basic truth about ---- current public affairs and daily social experience. It's difficult and even damn-near impossible to make sense of current events and that experience without that elementary social-historical common sense….without class analysis. Just name the issue --- warfare, empire, environmental destruction, deindustrialization, corporate globalization, overwork, racial conflict and inequality, the corruption and perverted priorities of government, etc. ---- and you find that class and class interests provide critical and central parts of the explanation for what's happening. But for various reasons, this basic common sense is exceptionally unavailable to ordinary Americans. The traditional Western analysis invokes ignorance and a feeling of helplessness vis-a-vis nature and natural forces as the cause of religious belief. But surely a feeling of mystery and powerlessness about sadly all-too determinant SOCIAL FORCES AND THEIR ROLE IN HUMAN EXPERIENCE might well have quite the same effect. I suppose something along this sort of thought occurs in social-scientific thought on this issue but usually minus my leftist emphasis on class-based explanation as the essential component of the demystifying tonic that is tragically unavailable to America's Joe Six Pack. My point, I guess, is that many more ordinary Europeans have tended to possess an elementary Marxist understanding of basic essentially of how their societies work and that understanding and mastering social as well as natural forces is part of the antidote to religious fantasy. 3. The relative disabling of democracy and the "left [positive social and democratic] hand of the state" (Pierre Bourdieu's wonderful phrase) in neo-Jacksonian, so-called “free market” (corporate-ruled) America tends to leave non-affluent people (the majority) feeling hopeless, helpless, and marginal in the face of God-like “market” and “economic” forces. This tends to encourage a fantastic cosmology in the “richest nation on earth,” which has the 26th highest life expectancy among the world's states and the most unequal distribution of wealth and power in the “advanced” (industrialized or post-industrialized) world. I read something suggestive in an essay by Pierre Bourdieu on this. He noted that the relative disabling of basic social-democratic policy in (admirably anti-clerical) France had given rise to an upsurge of highly personalized spiritual belief among many who no longer felt empowered in the real material and social world and who had therefore turned to more ethereal realms to find (illusions of) agency and satisifaction.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Mjc7373, Mcorbin at Nov 17, 2005 21:35 PM
"Those who don't feel pain cannot feel joy either, as joy is not just the absence of pain." From what I've read on Buddhism, the "transcendental joy" experienced by breaking out of the desire/suffering cycle is supposed to be an experience that is beyond the scope of ordinary happiness and is not simply a product of the absence of pain. That's the theory as I understand it.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Fuller, Mark at Nov 17, 2005 19:02 PM
Americans have lived in a vacuum that has acted like an echo chamber over the years with very little outside influence. The population is rendered captive and deliberately ignorant. The power systems in this country are monolithic; whereas in Europe a Frenchman could always turn to the media systems of 5 adjoining countries for a sanity check. Essentially the level of truth telling in Europe has a higher threshold than in America. Europeans have also witnessed two world wars and churches lining up with fascists. The connection between churches here and the state are less overt. There is also a culture of ignorance in America. You are not "cool" in school if you are smart; coolness goes to the jocks. Everything is America is "faith based" from the selling of Christ to toothpaste and politicians. If you have faith you don't have to think...much. I'm sure there are parts of the country where you'll find "Ford" men or "GMC" men a fanatical faith based allegiance to a manufacturer. Political discussions in America take on the same construct as discussion on ESPN; us vs. them, who can over simplify the most? Evidence of the suppression of critical thought is replete with idiotic comments like, "two things you should never discuss are religion and politics". If you those two things are off the table, what is left? Sitcoms and conspicuous consumption one might suppose. It's no wonder the rantings of religion have so much appeal...

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 16, 2005 20:16 PM
".. You can measure happyness in individuals by looking at certain chemicals and analyzing brain waves.." I believe that. There is evidence that prayers "work" too if you truly believe. Self deceptions obviously have beneficial pyschological effects or no one would be bothered. You can probably achieve the same ends with drugs or lobotomy. The question is whether blissfulness is the utimate goal. A terrible storm was raging. A Greek philosopher(Eupicurus?) was in a boat with his disciples. The disciples were in panic. Meanwhile a pig was happily eating, oblivious to the danger. The philosopher pointed to the pig and said, "Behold the wise man! See how he remains blissful in the face of disaster!" A silly question often comes up in parties: Would you rather be happy and stupid or lucid but sad? Reality is not so stark but the question is not entirely invalid. "And if you do your homework, it was a fedual theocracy whose citizens happily supported it.." Indeed I did. But it wasn't watching Richard Gere movies. Graeme also linked an article earlier challenging the rosy perceptions of pre invasion Tibet.I questioned some of his sources but at least it was food for thought. Recently that was a BBC documentary showing CIA involvements in Tibet before the Chinese invasion. The Tibetian Lamas were ferocious martial monks steeped in regional intrigues. They were rulers of men like the RC priests or the mullahs. Let's be at least a bit skeptical to the PR.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Man, Laughing at Nov 16, 2005 12:00 PM
There are sects of Bhuddism (Zen) which advocate principles radically different to what you would charatirize as a spiritual lobotomy. Moreover, this `lobotomy` is proven to be effective. There was a documentary on the topic. You can measure happyness in individuals by looking at certain chemicals and analyzing brain waves. People who meditate regularly have a higher `happyness level` then people who dont, and Bhuddists Monks happyness scores off the charts, it literally is so high it cant be completly measured. `I think the Dalai Lama is a crook even though I support Tibet's right to self determination 100%... Tibet was a fedual theocracy under Dalai.` And if you do your homework, it was a fedual theocracy whose citizens happily supported it. In comparision to say, America, it would be an improvemnt.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 16, 2005 06:13 AM
"Yes, and I find Spinoza's God to be among the most beautiful expressions of faith possible." Einstein was invited to talk in a synagogue in the 1940's(?). He basically told the audience it was childish to worship a personal God. The Jewish community was scandalized. Needless to say he was never invited back. Yet Spinoza's God doesn't satisfy the need for the faithful. Soren Kierkegaard lamented that he wanted the God of Abraham and Issac, not the philosopher's god. "I really recommend reading some of the Dalai Lama's work.." I think the Dalai Lama is a crook even though I support Tibet's right to self determination 100%. Here is a guy in a bath robe who claims he has the right to rule because he's the reincarnation of some Buddha. C'mon, that is even more hilarious than the Pope. Let's not romanticize the hereditary monks. Tibet was a fedual theocracy under Dalai.His Regent(he was 17) signed an agreement with Mao renouncing Tibet's national aspiration. In return the monks's property and privilegde would be respected. The Chinese later tore up the treaty and kicked out the monks anyway.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 16, 2005 02:44 AM
Kazansakis contrasted the buddha's dettached wisdom with Zorba's fiery passions in his beautifully written "Zorba the Greek". I choose Zorba's folly anyday. He who cannot hate is incapable of love either as both are intense emotions. The desire for justice is bounded up with the hatered for those who perpetrate injustice. Some Buddhists, by shifting everything to cosmic justice(karma) seem to evade human responsibility. I had a Buddhist roomate many years ago. He showed me approvingly a seris of lectures by a very senior Taiwanese monk. The monk began by saying that humans are just sacks full of shit with both end open. And then he claimed the holocaust was the collective karma of human's mistreatment of animals,--meat eating! In addition of being rather absurd I find his views deeply offensive. Of course I am not saying all Buddhists are like this guy, but his views are fairly main stream buddhism where I come from.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 16, 2005 02:12 AM
"Heck, the dude died of pork poisoning.." That's new to me. Instant Karma for killing the poor little pig. :) All Buddhist monks and nuns in South East Asia(China, Japan,Thailand, etc) are strict vegetarians. The spiritual lobotomy may be a caricature. The belief(at leas some schools popular in Asia) is that suffering is the result of desires and attachment. The only way to transcend suffering is to eliminate desires and let go of all attachments.It's like removing the pain centre to kill pain once and for all. But what is life without passion? Passion inevitably creates longing and attachments hence suffering. But I prefer to wallow in my humanity. Those who don't feel pain cannot feel joy either, as joy is not just the absence of pain. This may be just my shallow understanding. I am moved by the horribly twisted and contorted figures in Rodin's scruptures.I am captivated by the explosive colours in Van Gogh's paintings,--like the glare of a mad man. The dark and powerful images of Kathy Kollwitz haunt me. Somehow the calm detattchment of classical Chinese art,--informed by Taosism and Buddhism,-- never appeals to me.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Semayat, Wolde at Nov 16, 2005 01:04 AM
"saying that even questioning capitalism makes us lose our humanity" Fred, there´s no sense in that. I think you don´t get the point this time. "by accepting the presumption of legitimacy of debate on certain issues" You sometimes have accepted some completely hollow presumptions and try to fight against. And it gives them legitimacy. And read the hole thing which Kerr posted. It doesn´t mean that any argument which end "lose our humanity" is valid. It doesn´t even speak about same thing you are refering. Anyone can lose their humanity if there is not anymore human voice which tries to speak. Only robot voices ranting their long ago established arguments. Most of the times all i here is silence when i read Calvin and you. No disrespect - you have something to say too. I am now only speaking about your point in Chomsky argument which Kerr posted. And taking it so seriously that i´m talking about it. There are two kind of debates. Those of which go for prestige and controll of legitimacy. And those which tries to fiend some common ground and new ways of thinking and speaking. So to really SPEAK in broader sense is not revealing some stats for example, but to create new ways to reach other people and own thoughts. But offcourse if you like to take use of well placed locations and have an argument from there, without thinking why or what kind of debate is going, do so.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 16, 2005 00:18 AM
"You imply that it is IRRATIONAL to have faith ..If there's no evidence either way, belief has no rational content of any kind.." What is an "agnostic faith"? It seems an oxymoron. Of course we ultimately "believe" in something. It is an article of faith that the world exists and it's not just my imagination that I'm posting on znet now. But if you're saying ALL beliefs ("faiths") are "religious" hence there is no escape your definition is too broad to render the term meaningless. My definition of religion is any belief system which holds that there are some personal, human like gods or creators who take special interests in us and that the universe is invested with human meanings. The stories differ and there are different degrees of silliness and sophistications ranging from the bible thumpers to liberal theologians. But essentially they are all vulgar attempts to reduce the true mystery and wonder of the universe to ninth grade soap operas. One can be deeply "spiritual" without being religious. Recognizing how nature transcends petty human concerns is a form of spirituality. Einstein wasn't "faithful" in a religious sense. His "god" was just a shorthand for nature,--Spinoza's God. Don't know enough Buddhism. But my impression(at least one version) is that it suggests ending suffering through spiritual lobotomy.Can't feel any more pain if you remove your pain centre. Tolerating silliness doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 15, 2005 05:13 AM
'Of course, in order to maintain my status as a right-wing troll" r4d Nobody calls you that except Robert I will kick your intellectual balls Allen. Seems you like the attention. "Marxist commitment to "world revolution", a fundamental part of most leftist philosophy..". This is a strawman. Most leftists are not even marxists. "Cryo ..act lefter-than-thou - people like you are holding up the revolution :p." When did you hear me evangelizing about "world revolution"? "a few nutty proffessors actually do punish conservative students..." You exaggerate. Sometimes the stories are smear jobs against professors with certain leftish political opinions like supporting the Palestinians. "..revealed religion and science have an equal claim to explain.. before the Big Bang.. after death.." pageboy Obviously you don't understand the difference between "scientific" explanations and make belief stories with lousy plots. Science doesn't have a definitive claim about pre big bang. It doesn't claim to know ANYthing with certainty. Religion offers absolute certainties wich are certainly wrong. "I dont think that science.. eliminate the necessity of religion.." Of course not, science cannot disprove a null concept with zero empirical content. There is a subjective need for religions.Our unevolved ape brains need delusions sometimes. But that doesn't validate religion anymore than a crack addict requiring his fix validates crack.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Mjc7373, Mcorbin at Nov 15, 2005 04:57 AM
"EVERYONE is racist and sexist. DUH! And every other kind of ungracious impulse. That is human nature." Forget claiming that any behavior is human nature, it's impossible to know one way or the other. I mean, what test could you use to verify if something is or isn't? I think the common mistake is to assume if a pattern of behavior is widespread that it can be concluded that it is human nature.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 14, 2005 20:32 PM
'Black crack houses are, on the other hand, temples of fair play and moral rectitude.' What is your point? That only blacks do crack or that they don't have the luxury of getting high in the privacy of their own homes or cottages like white, suburbanite crackheads? The vast majority crack users are white though blacks get busted disproportionally more often.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Blairhead, Calvin at Nov 14, 2005 03:52 AM
Nice source Freddy. You are citing a Jewish graphologist as an expert on serial killers? Graphology has long since ceased to be admissible as evidence in a court of law, being as how its 70% bollocks. So much for your sources. I'd stick to prolixious verbosity if I were you little sumo. What's next from the Monologue? Using astrology to validate your opinions on foreign policy? Your last sentence doesn't actually mean anything. You seem to be losing the plot Monologue.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Blairhead, Calvin at Nov 14, 2005 02:46 AM
"white corporate fraudsters" The biggest corporate fraud of modern times was the looting of Russia by Jewish oligarchs.Whites do tend to dominate financial institutions and there is, of course, some fraud. Black crack houses are, on the other hand, temples of fair play and moral rectitude. "Hate crimes" Like the ones prompted by hatemongers like the black racist Dr Kambon or Jewish Professor Noel Inatiev who both call for the extermination of the White race? Or do you mean ones like this? http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=582 Or like this? http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=550 Or, if you don't like my sources, how about this from one of yours? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriss_Donald Keep the dream alive Freddie! Talking of Hitler, is Paris burning?

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Blairhead, Calvin at Nov 14, 2005 02:00 AM
"dispro white serial killers".....cept the thing is Fred, this anti-White myth is busy dying right now, drowning under a flood of internet freedom of information. http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/14431/ At least 15% of serial murderers are, in fact, Black. Add this to the fact that many "White" serial killers are actually Hispanic, like Richard Ramirez, or even Jewish like David Berkowitz, and reality begins to shine through your gossamer thin deceit. Nice try loser! "But Paul's a busy guy" Did you know that one of the duties of junior Sumo is wiping the asses of the seniors who are too fat to do this themselves. If you ever fancy a career change........

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Andrewiainpage, Pageboy at Nov 14, 2005 01:47 AM
Calvin youre just a philistine and flailing desperately. Are you seriously going to suggest that somehow the US is culturally superior to most European states? Yet most people here, as well as the rest of the world, see the US as the aggressor in Afghanistan, Iraq, and all the other petty wars and coups theyve funded over the past 50 years. Pre-emption, the policy (not a new one in US) of attacking a country before it attacks you, is aggression. Get a dictionary. Also, if you can say that the US is the most culturally superior country in the world you know nothing about politics, history, literature, art, or any other aspect of culture. Culture has not been advanced by Americans - even your imperialism is derivitive. For the first time in history the most powerful country in the world is not the most culturally advanced (cf Greece, Rome, Britain). What does that fact tell you? Your democracy is dysfunctional - you cant even see its been taken over by fascists. All youve brought to global culture are a few good books and films, jazz, and Elvis. The rest is junk - and I hate Elvis! Plus the US has the biggest debt in the world - that cant go on forever. Nice economy. Youre just leeches. And if you think an economy is superior without a health service youre plain stupid. Oh no sorry, I forgot, thats just a commie plot. Philistine go back to school. You and your hated govt are destroying culture and economies in every corner of the world. God save America.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Semayat, Wolde at Nov 14, 2005 00:34 AM
"It's far more comforting than admitting your economic inferiority is the result of cultural inferiority." And because of supposed cultural superiority USA have duty to attack other nations and take the role of oppressor? And by the way why you have the role of dismisher here? Why you have right to dismis other peoples ideas in such way? Or put it other way. Where comes that need to judge? "Don't most rapists claim that their victim was asking for it? The reality tends to be that they are too ugly and/or dysfunctional to have normal relationships." What are you refering with this? Honestly, i don´t understand it. Could it be because my cultural inferiority? Yeah babe papa Calvin...put me in order now!! Bring it on...all your eternal fears. I am asking you..

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Blairhead, Calvin at Nov 13, 2005 20:46 PM
"I enjoyed FC's concluding description of loathsome kkkal" Paul Street. Yup! You enjoyed it a lot more than the debate we had on soccer moms. That's why you've been hiding behind Fred "the monologue" Christie ever since. Red Fred, the man who thinks that Botswana's wealth has nothing to do with the fact that its basically a big diamond sprinkled with sand and the NOPD is a White institution despite the fact that it is 54% Black with a Black police chief. "Never mind the quality, feel the width".

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Blairhead, Calvin at Nov 13, 2005 20:23 PM
"and right now most of the world see USA as a oppressor. No raging of Calvin can deny that" Of course they do my litte Ostling. It's far more comforting than admitting your economic inferiority is the result of cultural inferiority. Don't most rapists claim that their victim was asking for it? The reality tends to be that they are too ugly and/or dysfunctional to have normal relationships.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Semayat, Wolde at Nov 13, 2005 19:08 PM
"Anti-Americanism"..in my reply there wasn´t that even Calvin found some. I was just poin-ting to the USA war policy like most could have guessed, i hope. People are not so different all around the globe. But states take different roles and right now most of the world see USA as a oppressor. No raging of Calvin can deny that. There´s no objective truth about this or anything. Just people who make judgements by what they see or their instincts make them to believe. For me morally comes from here. Not pur-suing some rules to the maximum but to be honest about where we are coming with our thoughts and judgements. It´s all come down who you crucified like Ringo sings. "ultimately motivated by subjective desires that are, themselves, irrational" I agree with that. "It is simply a stupid waste of time to try and get everyone to see things your way", cause it is directly connected to the way people experience world. And actually spea-king at itself is kind of defending your way of existence and feeling of life. So it´s hard to even judge most dogmatig mind so far it is really the way such mind experience the world. Root of human individuality comes from here. Offcourse dogmatig mind can also be just a smashing tool for some instinctive rage or will to controll other people. Jason Gurney once wrote: "Sometimes it looks like life is like a dream where man can´t do what he want´s - he can only invent explenations to behavior of his nature."

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Andrewiainpage, Pageboy at Nov 13, 2005 03:26 AM
"Religion has its place" - thats all I was trying to say. I dont agree with extremists on either side of the science/fundamentalism divide. Sorry Im not very PC or lucid. All Im saying is that revealed religion and science have an equal claim to explain what happened before the Big Bang and what will happen after death - the two essential questions of the meaning of existence. I didnt say that either explanation was actually rational or less of a myth than the other. Personally though, although I find it more plausible that the universe is an act of creation, because I believe in the essential truth of the Bible, that doesnt mean I take Genesis literally and think it should eb kept out of the classroom. Also I went to a lecture by the Dalai Lama last year and found it very moving. I also love Homer, but not for religious reasons. Furthermore, I dont think that science does eliminate the necessity of religion - it simply proves that Gods mind is far more interesting and complex than Christian fundamentalists and the all too human people who wrote the Bible would have us believe.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Andrewiainpage, Pageboy at Nov 13, 2005 01:06 AM
"Scientific explanations need not refer to any deity yet have explained with far more detail, predictive ability, etc. the explanatory myths of the old days." So? People dont turn to religion to find out where the universe came from or explain the randomness of weather unless they are ignorant heathens. True religion is a very personal thing and not a reaction to external forces of any kind and nothing to do with the universe or nature or society. Rationalise it however you want, youre no better than the ones who use an explanatory mythology, and its going to make no difference to a person who has seen or even felt God. Personally, I think it is the height of ignorance for fundamentalists to ignore the discoveries science makes (such as those despicable creationists in the American education system - why arent they interested in the way Gods universe works?). But the fact is that the proposition that God made the universe is more rational, at least as rational, and definitely more human, than that the universe is an accident. Science will never, ever be able to see back in time to before the Big Bang or into the afterlife, so these areas will always be the province of religion. And even if there are more important things to worry about, life just wouldnt be as interesting without these questions. A worldview that relies entirely on science ignores just as much of life as a fundamentalist one.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Nov 12, 2005 06:08 AM
In the introduction to "The Way of Chuang-Tzu", Thomas Merton has an analysis of a taoist parable that I thought was simply brilliant. Parable is at http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/taoism/cz-text2.htm do a text-search for "Three in the Morning" - its is only 1 paragraph long and, at first glance, seems rather pointless :). Merton, in his analysis, said that while people can be rational, they are (like the monkeys in the story) ultimately motivated by subjective desires that are, themselves, irrational - not bad, just not a product of reason. Knowing this, there is a fundamental limit to how much we can expect to get people to "be reasonable", see "the facts", and be persuaded to agree with us. It is simply a stupid waste of time to try and get everyone to see things your way - no matter how factual or reasonable you think your argument is. A man who insists that everyone around him "be reasonable" and see things his way is a man who is, himself, being unreasonable.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Nov 12, 2005 05:08 AM
" lefter than thou attitude also invites attacks" But its so common.... It seems to me that one of the problems of "fundamentalists" comes from the fact that, in Christianity, it is undeniably "fundamental" to spread the religion to others. Islam shares this same message - that the "goal", however long term, and however acheived, is ultimately to be the sole religion left on the planet. Economic conditions aside, it seems impossible to spread that message to 100 people and not expect at least 1 to interpret it as license to act like a bully. Spread it to 1 billion, and that makes at least 10,000,000 righteous assholes. Some will be violent. Others will just be annoying jerks who ban books and hijack school boards. Of course, in order to maintain my status as a right-wing troll, I must add that the Marxist commitment to "world revolution", a fundamental part of most leftist philosophy, seems remarkably close to the Christian/Islamic commitment to world dominance. The Message is simple - "sustainable coexistance with capitalism is not possible. Its the whole world or nothing at all". This naturally also produces jerk-ish behavior in people who take it very seriously. Of course Cryo is going to act lefter-than-thou - people like you are holding up the revolution :p. This is why a few nutty proffessors actually do punish conservative students for their views.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Nov 12, 2005 04:36 AM
bwong wrote: Cryo readily admits,-or at least doesn't contest,-that blacks, minority and women have real grievances. He just writes them off as unimportant to his "real" leftist project. Of course, everyone has grievances. Fat people. Old people. So very many. But using identity politics to try to help people have better lives is counterproductive. Better to help EVERY working person have a better life. That way you unite, not divide. Of course the rich and megacorps appreciate the fruits of their decades long evolution of the fauxleft, as it helps them stay rich. His argument is based on the implicit assumption that the white working class is inherently racist and sexist. EVERYONE is racist and sexist. DUH! And every other kind of ungracious impulse. That is human nature. It is quite patronizing and offensive. Imagine that: a fauxlefter becoming offended. I thought I had seen everything....

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Yurallnuts, Realpc at Nov 12, 2005 03:56 AM
By demystifiying and subduing (or seeming to subdue) so much of the natural world that had for so long haunted humanity ... the advance of “modern” technology and its handmaiden scientific explanation tend to enshrine glorious (or awful, depending on your perspective) self-active Human Agency, thereby de-throning Gods, Devils, spirits, goblins, spells, magic, and other such mysterious super-natural agents and powers. Maybe you haven't noticed that mental illness is still not understood. Tranquilizing drugs are not a cure. Maybe you didn't notice that cancer is not understood and not curable. Or that no one understands much about how DNA works, or that string theory still fails to explain subatomic particles. So how did modern science 'de-throne" all these supernatural agents? We have no explanations or understanding of the central mysteries of the universe.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 11, 2005 19:24 PM
r4d, I agree with you totally.I make the same point often. In fact I told people to lay off Cryofan at first because I thought this was the message he tried to get across, abeit clumsily. It is one thing to argue against navel gazing identity politics and quite another to dimiss all legitimate concerns relating to race and gender etc on the ground that it MAY offend the "red necks"(Cryofan's term)and distract from the struggle for economical justice. Cryo readily admits,-or at least doesn't contest,-that blacks, minority and women have real grievances. He just writes them off as unimportant to his "real" leftist project. This is even worse than the liberals who sincerely believe that racism doesn't exist. It's telling that calvin the Nazi actually praised him for "independent thinking". Not that I am accusing Cryo of racism. I just think he's an idoit. Cryo is the last person to accuse others of elitism towards the poor whites. His argument is based on the implicit assumption that the white working class is inherently racist and sexist. It is quite patronizing and offensive. His theory of an omnipotent "elite" playing the white workers like puppets and his proposed antidote of "counter propaganda" betray his utter contempt to the ordinary people. His idea of "leftism" is to "reprogram" the puppets with some master meme. Cryo's rather offensive, lefter than thou attitude also invites attacks.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Nov 11, 2005 06:47 AM
"And wouldn't radical irrational oppressive religion be another sign of white inferiority?" Not any more than the violence of arab fundamentalists indicates their inferiority. Not any more than the "primitive" technology of the colonised were signs of their inferiority. Not any more than the rates of crime and drug use in the communities of some US minorities are signs of their inferiority. Racism is the product of sloppy thinking. It is common because sloppy thinking is common and it will not be stopped by more sloppy thinking.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Nov 11, 2005 05:54 AM
Bwong, I think he touches on a point. "Poor White Trash" get discriminated against by rich whites too. In many ways they are the "invisible" people in the race debate. In most discusion "white" is preated as " affluent". Read about "white privilege" and you'll hear about "not being followed around stores" - but go to any rich store dressed like WT and see if they don't follow you like a black man. And, frankly, the urban/suburban cultural bias against them is also pretty blatant. Poor Whites get depicted in stereotypical characters on par with Amos and Andy, but who takes them seriously when anyone complains?

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 10, 2005 20:15 PM
By insisting the left should ignore the concerns of non whites and women ,Cryo is shooting himself on the foot. He succeeds in alienating the most likely supporters of economical justices.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 10, 2005 19:23 PM
Even within the limit of economical leftism cryofan's premise is questionable. He takes for granted that the "white working class" has most potential for economical leftism while everyone else is just "meat puppet" masturbating with "identity politics". Even strictly in economical terms the "white working class" is far from the most oppressed. Immigrant workers, women and blacks are considerably worse off economically than "white workers" who have cushy union jobs. It's patent nonsense to presume that racism and sexism are only of interest to tenured professors. They have far reaching ECONOMICAL impacts. Case in point. A long strike in a meat packing plant in Brooks, Alberta has just been settled. Some key demands were better work conditions, more reasonable work tempo("so that workers don't have to wet their plants"), wage hike and expanding union power. The workers were divided along racial line. Immigrants (mostly Africans) were solidly behind the strike while the "white working class" employees were against. The white workers have traditional loyalty to the boss and blame the immigrants for rocking the boat.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Man, Laughing at Nov 10, 2005 14:52 PM
`Laughing Man's reflections (which make me look like a spelling bee champ)` I conkede mi spellin and grammar sluck. Frederic, I agree in many ways that Europe is behind on several issues. But the key point isnt a question of civilization, intelligence, or compassion, but a world view of futility. `Japanese fear of crime is truly incredible. I wonder if it's their general distaste for perceived miscreance, but they have among the lowest crime rates in the world.` Well, partially it has to do with that people would rather blame things on burglers or pickpokets rather then their own incompetance, but somehow this has translated into a national phobia. Its reached the point where there are private security firms that secure houses, and people put bars on their windows and pull metal shutters over them at night.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Nov 10, 2005 02:48 AM
Frederic wrote: I think you overestimate Europe's independence. They're far more colonized than they imagine, and as the latest riots in France show, perfectly capable of oppressing a local minority. .... Europeans are often worse than Americans....measures of European racial tolerance indicate them to be LESS tolerant than Americans....culturally biased.... black students....black students.... stereotype....discriminated minority.... white students....black students....women Gee, I cannot see why on earth white middle class Americans believe that the American Left is for minorities and against whites. I cannot believe the white middle class think that American liberals are obsessed with race/gender politics. Where do they get these wacky ideas? Rush Limbaugh? Sure, Limbaugh talks about it, but there is no evidence to back it up....is there? But you are doing a great job, Fred. Just keep driving the white lower middle class Americans away from the Leftist Economics by praticing White Hating Identity Politics. You are doing your part to keep plutocrat wallets as fat as possible!

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Street, Paul at Nov 09, 2005 21:17 PM
I enjoyed FC's concluding description of loathsome kkkal, who has reared his ugly cyber-head yet again. Laughing Man's reflections (which make me look like a spelling bee champ) are eloquent and on-point and largely consistent with the great young Marx selection ("the passage," as David put it) that D. Peterson wonderfully linked. My main point in the post is that Americans feel especially helpless (to use LM's term) in the face of seemingly alien and all-too determinant social (not just natural) forces because of the nation's "exceptional" long (pre- and post- Joe)McCarthyism...the particular difficulty faced here by those who would advance a common-sense class-based ("Marxian") analysis of basic social phenomenon and current events. Recent chilling published computer simulations on speeded up/runaway global warming (see the latest Journal of Climate and the November 2 NYT, p.5) suggest why people need cosmic illusions under the toxic chaos of "modern" capitalism in its petro-addicted phase: the human species appears to be intelligently designing its own relatively imminent (in historical terms)extinction.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Man, Laughing at Nov 09, 2005 17:28 PM
Currently, Europe is slipping out of religious doctrine because they no longer feel intrinsically bound by circumstance. Protest, decent, and critial thinking are far more present in the lifes of Europeans. They know on a fundamental level that they can overthrow their governments (they did it several times), and are much more conchous of propaganda and much more sceptical of the government. It should be noted however, that this does not necesserally imply that religon/belif is bad. Its just a coping mechanism. In the face of percived insurmaoutable odds people manufacture systems that make themselfs feel better about themselfs/their surroundings. One of the most repeated argumetns of religous proponents is that they have `felt god`. While this experiance may be explained by various chemical reactons, and self induced euporia, the result is very tangible. People who `feel god` are mearly experianceing the feeling of having put all responsablitys outside of oneself, and viewing the world as a place which will not only forgive them for their mistakes but takes the concequences out of their hands. They are no longer shaken by the fact that they will die and be no more, fear of death, the eternal plague of man is signifigantly reduced. They are promised happyness in the futrue even if they are unable to achive it now, and suddenly all the burdens the world has placed upon them are lifted.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Man, Laughing at Nov 09, 2005 16:59 PM
Furthermore the Japanese are thoroughly convinced that there are criminals lurking in every corner. Again, if you inquire into why this is, the rational is outstanding. More often then naught, there isnt any rational. Its just simply a fact that cannot be questioned. When asked about the evedence behind statments like `its dangerous to go out after 9:00pm because you can get mugged` you dont even get a real answer, usually along the lines of `because everyone knows that`. In the event that there actually is `evidence` of robbery/breakins it follows the lines of `a person who I know came back home and found her room messy` when further pressed they concede that nothing was stolen, but it was the work of a stalker, ignore the fact that stalkers dont make themselfs known to their targets. In the dark ages, europe had a very similar set up. Peoples lives were determined by family of birth rather then individual merit. Born a peasent, die a peasent. People resort to belif in order to confort themselves that there is a world in which they are not punished by fate. The same pattern can be seen in all fudalist countries. Islamic extreamism today is a result of the helplessness people feel in the face of world powers. Islamic extremeism yesterday was propagated by monarchys similar to the ones in Europe.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Man, Laughing at Nov 09, 2005 16:38 PM
At birth Japanese people get put into schools whose value is determinded directly by how much they cost. If its expensive, its good. They then spend the next 12 years of their lifes jerking off because nothing they do in school actually matters. Everything is contingent on the collage enterence exam, grades dont actually effect the equation. If you get a high score on the the test youre admitted into a collage, with an equevelat score requirement. Once you get into collage you cant get kicked out, the vast majority of collage students dont study or learn and for good reason. Companies do not actually care what you do in collage, just what collage you went to. The higher the difficulty of enterence, the more prestigous the collage, and therefore the higher the value of the graduate. From collage you go into your job, wich you (your parents) select on a basis of job security and pay. After that, you are employed on a lifetime contract, where advancement and raises are correlative to the amount of time spent in the company. Leaving is not a good idea, because when (if) you get a new job you have to start at the bottom of the latter. The American system is almost entirely self evident to anyone who will be reading this. The government tries to indoctrenate people into beliving that they have not effect and are worthless. The evidence is boring to repeat.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Man, Laughing at Nov 09, 2005 16:02 PM
Belif in the irrational is directly linked to the feeling of helplessness in the individual/populace. This isnt just about Christianity, but about all belif not based on observable/predictable exterior phenomena. Take for instance Japan. Insofar as I can tell 90% of the population is convinced of the existance of ghosts/curses/magic and rampant crime. When you ask them about the evedence you get really intersting responses. When questioned about ghosts a person said that their freinds house was haunted because she heard the sounds of someone walking outside the house, subsequently followed by the same sound inside the house. Curses are justified by the fact that a teacher bought a ring, something bad happend (no relation to the ring itself), and then the teacher returned the ring to the seller claiming it caused the irrelated incident. People think that fourtune tellers are accurate because one of them told the individual in question that `something will happen next month` and then something did happen. This is relevant because Japanese people live the most predetermined lives I have ever seen. The rest of a persons life is entirely based on birth. (If you have issues with this comment on http://www.thecatharsis.proboards30.com/)

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Buban, Mike at Nov 09, 2005 09:07 AM
At the risk of sounding corny, I believe because i've been taught that God exists and because I've felt his/her comfort. That being said fundamentalist christianity is a dangerous thing. It has perverted the teaching of Jesus and by using scapegoats the fundamentalists prove my point. If I remember correctly, nowhere does Jesus point out scapegoats. He pushed compassion for all, and most importantly our enemies. Turn the cheek not once or twice but 7 times 77 times. Jesus would never have looked at a gay, liberal, or republican and condemned them without trying to save them first. One other thing, being a christian means that you follow the teachings of the New Testament and not the Old Testament. So when our current President claims with his mouth to be christian and with his hands he demands an eye for an eye, he is no longer a christian, he is truthfully a...Jew, for that is the old covenant. So perhaps all of us crazy paranoid conspiracy theorists are right....LOL

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Nov 09, 2005 03:48 AM
" hatred of Christians if you prefer traditional English." This is the "Big Lie" that assholes, who happen to be Christian, tell themselves to justify their own assaults on the rights of others.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Blairhead, Calvin at Nov 09, 2005 03:04 AM
"Yep, only now americans are like those romans in Gibson movie" Anti-Americanism, the racism you can eat between meals without spoiling your appetite. The ideal chaser to bigotry-lite,or hatred of Christians if you prefer traditional English. Americans are not quite evil enough to put of the millions of immigrants that flock to her bounty though Wolde, are they?

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By Semayat, Wolde at Nov 09, 2005 00:05 AM
Yep, only now americans are like those romans in Gibson movie. And if there would be new Jesus he would be surely crucified by who? Iraques? Iraques are surely putting down all the rebellious ones in the west...And in the end Karl Rove surely is up to the job, that old Pharisee. Could it be that in the end every country deserves the kind of kings they have?

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Blairhead, Calvin at Nov 08, 2005 23:06 PM
The question, “ Why does fundamentalist Christianity hold such a powerful appeal to so many Americans” sounds a bit rich coming as it does from the proselytizers of a fundamentalist political ideology. What's the matter, can't stand the competition? America prefers Mel Gibson to Michael Moore, or at least that's what the box office says, maybe your current crop of propagandists aren't up to the job? Or maybe you just have a flawed product?

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Nov 08, 2005 03:46 AM
"Trying to make religious doctrines into law seems even more desperate, and leaves me wondering if those advocating the laws have any faith in their ideas winning people over freely." I think they know how unpopular they are now, but I also think this is why people invent notions like "false consciousness" - to internally reconsile their desire to help with the knowledge that their "help" is unwanted. We don't feel guilty about restraining mentally ill people who might hurt themselves or others, do we? Classify everyone who doesn't follow as mentally ill, convince yourself that their actions are dangerous to themselves or others, and - viola - you have your recipe for guilt-free oppression (and you even get to do it in the name of the oppressed to boot). Of course, this describes more than just right-wing evangelicals.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Mjc7373, Mcorbin at Nov 07, 2005 10:12 AM
"The state "uses" religion the way a windmill "uses" the wind -" True. I often wonder if the world would be better off if religion was simply a personal matter, and was kept out of politics and the public arena all together. You can just about equate how little faith people have in their beliefs with how fervently they try to recruit more followers. Trying to make religious doctrines into law seems even more desperate, and leaves me wondering if those advocating the laws have any faith in their ideas winning people over freely.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Cacioppo, Jonas at Nov 06, 2005 04:49 AM
I don't think we live in apocalyptic times, but perhaps in times of apocalyptic politics. An administration running this great country that is particularly adept at wearing its dogma on its sleeve compounds this. American belief in fundamentalist Christianity, which is by itself a minority view within the Christian faith, does not comprise the numbers we may (mistakenly) think it does. It is instead a matter of loudness and influence. And it is not necessarily a matter of fundamentalism - which purports to take Jesus' teachings literally, a possible boon for socialistic domestic policy and nonviolent foreign policy if these sorts of people actually run the government - but of an apocalyptic strain within it that subverts them. Self-fulfilling prophecies do not serve American interests, to say the least. And I fear theocrats of all persuasions, besides.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Street, Paul at Nov 06, 2005 04:38 AM
Extreme religious origins are clearly relevant in the case of New England settler elite, which was truly a bunch of wacked out fanatics, including terribly doctrinaire people like Osama bin (John) Winthrop. But most settlers and immigrants came mainly out of less advertised material motives, even in the case of New England (see Roger Daniels, Coming to America...his early chapter on English newcomers/conquerors in 17th century). rd420's immigration angle is certainly part of the story both (a) in terms of deepening the fear that "Lying for Empire" rightly says is part of the explanation (by the way Chomsky's Imperial Ambitions book emphasizes extreme fear as reason for longstanding American religiosity)and (b) undercutting the class-based labor institutions that tend to spread common-sense Marxian demystifications of social reality. Part of the explanation may simply be institutional in the basic sense that churches now way outstrip unions and political parties/machines and other agencies as vehicles of grassroots political socialization and mobilization in the U.S. Probably there's something also to say about the unmatched corporate thought-control and brainwashing that has developed in the U.S. since the early 20th century (see Alex Carey, Taking the Risk Out of Democracy) thanks in part to our strong free speech tradition. Top-down thought-control hollows out the mass mind, leaving it ripe for Marx's opiate. Another contributing factor is probably America's unmatched auto-driven sprawl pattern of modern un-"settlement." It creates enormous alienation and loneliness and exacerbates savage time-squeeze resulting part from pandemic overwork, which is both cause and reflection of the related health care crisis (see Juliet Schor, The Overworked American) and is itself part of the pseudo-Christian devil's brew.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Blairhead, Calvin at Nov 05, 2005 15:21 PM
Its important to remember that in this context "religious extremism" doesn't mean an open hatred of homosexuals, the open oppression of women, genuflection towards the deity in ritual mounting position five times a day and the open veneration of terrorists. It is essential that the left in its struggle does not fall foul of religious extremists who might violently resist defamation by wimp intellectuals.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Andrewiainpage, Pageboy at Nov 05, 2005 08:42 AM
""it was Mao who said that "religion is the opiate of the masses". But then I have no objection to drug use either-as long as you don't become a junkie!" Actually it was Marx." Sorry abou that. I heard of Mao saying it once and presumed it was his. Nice Hemmingway quote though. Also very poetic and insightful r4d20; is that yours? Furthermore, I think on reflection that your Puritan founders have a tremendous influence today. I know that the early Republican's were also influenced by the English Republicans of the Revolution. It is like Marx says at the beginning of the Eighteenth Brumaire, about how the French Revolutionists (whom he compares to the English Revolutionists) draped their ideology alternately in that of the Roman Republic and Roman Empire. Bush is like Cromwell and the media is like Milton, except without the heroism or the intellect they just sound hollow. The US govt definitely seems to be in the Roman Empire phase of its identity. The only question is: to what purpose? The bourgeois revolution and its illuminati are yet to fully realise their destiny.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Nov 05, 2005 08:30 AM
Interesting essay. I definitely agree that a wider scope approach to the problem is needed. Americans need information that relates their society and its problems to mankind in general in a historical context. When I am able to get back to work on my documentary, I think I am going to reframe it in the context of how poorly America is doing compared to most western european countries with respect to healthcare. This will give me a springboard to search for WHY we have failed and they have succeeded. And now it is even becoming apparent to the mid level corporate media types that our healthcare system compares poorly to all other western nations. here are some good and recent articles on the stats: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110301143.html http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/health/feeds/hscout/2005/11/03/hscout528934.html

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Peterson, David at Nov 05, 2005 07:45 AM
Paul: Great post---"Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist 'Christianity'?" I for one have always felt degraded by the religious form of life. Not the experience of inwardness, reflection, the imagination---not the fact of being human. But, rather, all of the God-stuff. The notion of a realm separate from life. A soul. Along with the judgment that life itself is unworthy of life. You know the passage?
To call on people to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
Or the dunce cap. Same difference.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Nov 05, 2005 06:15 AM
"I think America has always been more religious comparing with other developed countries, now as it was then. The reason may locate somewhere in the U.S's history." I think there a 2 major factors 1) we were founded by very religious people. It was more than just the Puritans of Wew England - people with lots of faith are going to be overrepresented in any activity that involves that kind of risk - cynics aren't the kind that move across the world to live a frontier life. 2) Waves of Immigration - periodic invasions of swarthy foreigners who "are taking our jobs" helps keep the pot simmering.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Nov 05, 2005 04:00 AM
"People need to be forgiven for the actions that the "system" requires they do." The doctrine of salvation has proved popular in a variety of different environments - from the fall of rome to the third world today. "Sin" may be a christian concept, but everybody (except sociopaths) has some things in their past they feel remorse for, and being forgiven has a powerful appeal. "But a belief in God can also lead to a feeling of independence from the state. " Exactly. The state "uses" religion the way a windmill "uses" the wind - it harnesses its power by working with the wind, but it does not control the wind and can be destroyed by it when it's whipped into a raging storm.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Gammon101, Bwong at Nov 05, 2005 03:47 AM
Are fundamentalist beliefs on the rise in the U.S? I can't imagine folks in the pious hey days of the 50's were less religious. Maybe we just hear about them more these days because of debates on gay rights and abortion, etc. But in the GOD (good ole days) these issues were hardly speakable when religion was the norm. It's possible that as society is becoming more secular religions stand out more. I think America has always been more religious comparing with other developed countries, now as it was then. The reason may locate somewhere in the U.S's history. "it was Mao who said that "religion is the opiate of the masses". But then I have no objection to drug use either-as long as you don't become a junkie!" Actually it was Marx. A Hemmingway character said (to some Mexican Marxists),"religion is opium for the masses, sport is opium, so is sex, so is music..what do you want to do with the masses? Operating on them without anesthetics?"

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Andrewiainpage, Pageboy at Nov 05, 2005 02:37 AM
But a belief in God can also lead to a feeling of independence from the state. The hypocrisy I see in the American govt and its supporters would never be tolerated by truly religious people. That is why monks and hermits have nothing to do with them.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Andrewiainpage, Pageboy at Nov 05, 2005 02:29 AM
Firstly,the English Revolution of the mid-seventeenth century,which was for us our bourgeois revolution,and which paved the way for democracy,Enlightenment,and liberty,was actually motivated by a more extreme and fundamentalist religious ideology than Catholicism. It is true that Puritan ideology was anti-clerical,but in no way was it anti-religious. The purpose of the Revolution was to break the power of absolute monarchy and the bishops,but also to re-establish true religion. It actually reflected a deeper and more pervasive spirituality in society in general that had emerged in reaction to the hypocrisy of the medieval Catholic Church and feudal monarchies. Religion was used by the revolutionaries to legitimise their actions,but they were without a doubt sincere and enlightened,whereas Bush and co are ignorant hypocrites. Secondly,for me,the whole point of being in nature is that it is an autonomous existence seperate from God where matter and humans interact according to physical or materialist laws. This does not preclude the possibility that these laws and the matter they govern were once created, even if this cannot be replicated in the lab. Scientific laws and materialist theories do not explain away (or explain belief in) God and they never will. This argument has never stood up for me-it is too simplistic. Also,it was Mao who said that "religion is the opiate of the masses". But then I have no objection to drug use either-as long as you don't become a junkie!

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Semayat, Wolde at Nov 05, 2005 01:41 AM
I am very much in the same boat. People tend to grab something when social reality seems to be out of their controll. But why to grab something rock solid in fanatic way and make it question of power here in our life in earth? Is this american speciality like Chomsky claims? In Finland, for example, new kinds of "spiritualism" have been rising at some ways. People tend to drift away from official lutheric church, but still seek new believings and religious experiencies. But here´s very few want to make it a question of prestige and politics or loyalty to the cause in a straight way. No-one´s trying to seriously claim to be possessing any fundamentall truth. Any comments why it could be so? Why americans are tying themselves to hard rock believings? Is it just a question of weird public reality or is part of USA unable to live in modern confusion seeking their way through the smoke screen endlesly? Or is it just a social pattern of behavior hard to break down which goes on?

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Man, Laughing at Nov 04, 2005 08:56 AM
`What about a theory that positions the rise in fundamentalist christianinty in its ability to offer salvation in a world that is inherently unethical. The ability to scape goat, gays, liberals etc..while offering penance for the sacraligious economy and its muscle (the US GOVT). People need to be forgiven for the actions that the "system" requires they do.` This presupposes that the populace in question is on a higher level aware of its immorality. Wether they are or not remains to be seen, but you need to show that they are bifore you make this claim. Otherwise, I agree.

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Re: Why Do So Many Americans Believe in God and Fundamentalist "Christianity"?

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Nov 04, 2005 05:41 AM
What about a theory that positions the rise in fundamentalist christianinty in its ability to offer salvation in a world that is inherently unethical. The ability to scape goat, gays, liberals etc..while offering penance for the sacraligious economy and its muscle (the US GOVT). People need to be forgiven for the actions that the "system" requires they do. Or it could be that in the age of 60-70 hour work weeks and diminishing pay, "religion is the opiate of the people." Marx

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