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Occupy_iowa_city_rally

Paul Street's Blog

Web Address: http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/paulstreet
Bio:         Paul Street is an independent radical-democratic policy researcher, journalist, historian, and speaker based in Iowa City, Iowa, and Chicago, Illinois.&nbs... (More)

All Street Blogs

"You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Paul Street at Dec 13, 2005


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Perhaps some of this blog's readers (and yes, it's getting hard to read this blog...I am afraid the system will collapse before I get this post entered...) saw the piece I did on how local media supports and "normalizes" the death of US GIs in Iraq. See my essay "Normalizing Evil on the Local News," at www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=9276§ionID=21. This article elicited some interesting reflections from self-described "Christrians" who accused me of "dishonoring" a recently killed (in Fallujah) Marine (Andy Patten of Byron, Illinois) mentioned in that article. Some of those who wrote to me constructed some rather unfortunate arguments in defense of the war and the criminal White House that took their friend's life. I penned a response to their hurt but nonetheless still ruggedly rightist reflections in my "Letter to the Friends of a Lost Soldier," available at: www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=72&ItemID=9301. Here's the oddest letter yet, just sent to me by a self-described descendant of Norwegian immigrants to the U.S.: "Mr. Street:" "I suppose that you would consider World War II an illegitimate war and all of the soldiers killed there a waste. Maybe you would enjoy living under Nazi rule. Maybe we should have just allowed Sadaam Hussein to maim and torture more people beyond the Kurds. What would you consider to be normal and necessary death overseas? Why should we even care about anyone else other than ourselves anyway? We fund all kinds of domestic programs and yet are we ahead in terms of people becoming better citizens or contributing more to our society because of what we have given them off the public dole? What is your statistic to back up that most of the American populace is against the war? I would imagine that if Clinton was at war in Iraq and everything was the same as it is now, you would have no hue and outcry. If America is as bad as you say it is, why are people still desiring to come here from other countries and make a life for themselves? My inlaws came here from Norway in the 1950's for all that America has to offer. Why are so many students here from other countries such as at NIU? Why would they want to go to school in America if they can go somewhere else? As a woman myself, do you have anything to say about how women are treated in Iraq and other middle eastern countries? Would you rather leave that alone because you don't care about the woman who were maimed and killed by Sadaam and his cronies? Are we so concerned with our image as a nation that we have to appease the whole world with whatever we do? Lets just all be one happy little nation and mind our little p's and q's and we'll live happily ever after. Maybe the pilgrims with their imperialist ambitions should never have come over here and we should all be living under British rule. Then we wouldn't have rocked the boat. " "You seem like you would be a good candidate to live in Norway. It is a 'wonderful' socialist country. All of your healthcare would be paid for. Just hope you don't come down with cancer or another serious illness. Several of my husband's relatives were given a clean bill of health in Norway and then came here for a vacation and within days of coming here were taken to the hospital. Two of them were diagnosed with terminal cancer and the other with advanced heart disease. One died here before he could get back to Norway and the others died soon after they got back to Norway. Other relatives have come over for treatment because their 'lovely little' socialist medical system has no incentive for innovative care and therefore offers no hope for serious diseases or doesn't even diagnose them." Ok, that's the note. Now it's me talking again. What's the worst thing in this terrible letter? Hard to say. Maybe its the writer's preposterous analogy between Saddam and Hitler, made without much other than superficial basis. The fascist Axis was a true and profound threat to world peace and democracy. I would have been the first person to the recruiting station to fight Hitler. An uncle of mine died fighting the Nazi army in North Africa. Maybe its the writer's ignorance of Uncle Sam's role in funding, equipping and generally protecting Saddam as he butchered not only Kurds but Iranian soliders and many others. She is unaware of the US-led economic sanctions that maimed and tortured Iraq to the tune of at least 1 million deaths (not counting the huge civilian death count from the first US war on Iraq) and which simultaneously deepened Saddam's power in Iraq. Maybe its her ignorance of how the situation of Iraqi women has worsened thanks to the U.S. invasion, which is empowering reactionary Muslim elements who repress females. Or maybe its her gullible acceptance of the Cheney-Bush administration's Orwellian rhetoric whereby the massive US assault on Iraqi civilians, society, and infrastructure (in 2004 a conservative British medical journal estimated more than 100,000 premature Iraqi deaths because of Bush's monumentally illegal war of aggression and choice) is an expression of America's liberating and Christian love.... for.... well, the Iraqis (you know...tough love). Maybe its her lack of understanding that the U.S. has by the far the weakest welfare state in the industrialized world. What does she mean "ahead in terms of people becoming better citizens?" That term would require a bit more elaboration it seems to me. Apparently she means people moving off "the dole." I guess that would leave out people like Bush and Cheney, whose chickenhawk lives have been defined by the aristicratic cradle to grave dole called elite class privilege. Both of them have received no small amount of corporate welfare over the decades. Maybe its her ignorance of readily available polling data showing that 62 percent of the U.S. populace disagrees with Bush's Iraq policy. Or maybe its her ignorance that leftists like me harshly opposed and criticized Clinton, including his Iraq policy: it's endlessly amusing to see how the right likes to think that regressive/neoliberal Bill Clinton was "left" and that the left liked him. Maybe it's my critic's false claim that I said America was a bad place. Or her dangerous confusion between America/Americanism and the Bush administration. Or her authoritarian suggestion that someone who disagrees with her vile president's morally unjust and idiotic (even from a conservative perspective) war should LEAVE THE COUNTRY--- there we go again (http://blog.zmag.org/index.php/weblog/entry/why_dont_you_leave_the_country/) --- and go to, well, curiously enough, her ancestral land Norway. So much for America as the land of free expression: "what, you dare disagree with the current administration? Deport thyself, infidel!" No, the worst thing I think is the way she beats up on not-so poor (see below) little Norway, a country to which she claims ethno-historical connection! I love America, but I also have some reasons to love Norway too. Check out the UN's 2005 Human Development Report numbers at http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/ http://cfapp2.undp.org/hdr/statistics/data/rc_report.cfm Norway is, well, NUMBER ONE on the most sophisticated system of national quality-of-life ranking yet devised by social researchers. The U.S. is number 10, which is pretty good, but it ain't Norway. Here are some comparisons that ought to interest my Norwegian-American critic: PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION LIVING BENEATH 50% OF MEDIAN NATIONAL INCOME: Norway: 6.4% US: 17% HEALTH EXPENDITURES PER CAPITA* Norway: $3,409 US: $5,724 * My critic probably thinks socialized health insurance means higher costs. Not true: the American corporate system, ruled by the capitalist profit imperative, is remarkably expensive because of high drug costs, huge doctor and administrative salaries, and massive bureaucratic bloat in the the medical industrial complex. LIFE EXPECTANCY* Norway: 79 US: 77 * I'm very sorry about my critic's husband's relatives, but people live longer on the whole in Norway, with its supposedly awful publicly funded health care system. INFANT MORTALITY* Norway: 3 per 1,000 live births US: 7 per 1,000 live births * More than twice as high in supposedly "free market" America, where more than 44 million lack health insurance GDP PER CAPITA* Norway: $48,412 (highest in world) US: 37,648 * So do Americans need to start working harder than those lazy Norwegians, who have been made so lethargic by social democratic programs? SHARE OF NATIONAL CONSUMPTION BYTHE POOREST 10 PERCENT OF POPULATION Norway: 4% U.S.: 2 % SHARE OF NATIONAL CONSUMPTION BY THE RICHEST 20 PERCENT Norway: 37.2% US: 45.8% RATIO OF THE 10 PERCENT'S INCOME TO THE BOTTOM 10 PERCENT'S INCOME: Norway: 6.1 (times higher) US: 16 (times higher) GINI COEFFFICIENT (Measure of total inequality) Norway: 25.8 US: 41 UNEMPLOYMENT RATE (2004): Norway: 4.5 US: 6 Now that Bush's war on Iraq has proven so successful perhaps the president should be preparing for a new messianic assault on evil Marxist Scandinavia, including first and foremost the nation ranked at the very top of the planet in terms of human development. But of course the UN's Human Development Report is just part of the international liberal socialist secular humanist commie terrorist intellectual east coast academic conspiracy that evangelical authorities so rightly condemn, right? Right. Jesus spins in his grave when America's "Christian" right starts thinking. Forgive them for they haven't got a clue. Maybe some day my critic will learn about the radical Jesus that Gerrard Winstanely knew about, the wonderful egalitarian anti-authoritarian leveller of men --- the great enemy of hierarchy who finds his vision more closely fulfilled in relatively secular Norway than in avowedly "Christian" America.

 

 

  

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Person

Wow, I definitely would not

By Tricanda, Tricia at Sep 08, 2006 05:17 AM

Wow, I definitely would not consider it an insult to be told I should relocate to Norway. I think the woman who took the time to write the letter in question should spend some time in the country she has decided to criticize. Norway is an amazing country in terms of its physical beauty, politics and standard of life. I've actually debated surrendering my Canadian citizenship and moving permanently to Norway. It's a country that really seems to have it all together. So Paul, if you do get exiled to Norway, perhaps I'll see you there, and we can enjoy a functional system of socialism together!

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P Street's rant has style..

By Kissenger, Clark at Feb 02, 2006 20:02 PM

Paul wrote: But of course the UN's Human Development Report is just part of the international liberal socialist secular humanist commie terrorist intellectual east coast academic conspiracy that evangelical authorities so rightly condemn, right? Right. Jesus spins in his grave when America's "Christian" right starts thinking. lol, ( I am laughing) This is way more entertaining than our TVs. I think we Canadian would be pleased to rename the states " the United States of Norway..

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 19, 2005 02:44 AM

"ELITE bend the populace to THEIR will, and make THEM obey. I am proposing that the POPULACE bend the ELITE to THEIR will." The people forcing others to bend are, by definition, the "elites". You just want to be one of the ones doing the opressing.

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Occupy_iowa_city_rally

Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Street, Paul at Dec 19, 2005 01:33 AM

Ok, the blog host notes that cryofan has CONFUSED me (Paul) with "r4d20." This is an odd confusion. I just went inside comment record to correct that (whereupon this note will seem superflous). I'm not excited about these exchanges on either side but I don't wan't the record to stand uncorrected on who said what. cryofan clearly means to be saying "r4d20" in these last posts. MTBrad is right in my estimation about the real point being the underlying social system and its institutions.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Dec 18, 2005 14:22 PM

Cryofan, It is rediculous to blame individual captialists for the structural problems of captialism. Trying CEO's for murder, maybe if you can show knowledge of the murder. But it is silly to say that anyone involved in a bad social system should be shot. What about anyone who pollutes, people die from pollution all the time, should we kill anyone who has ever ridden in a car, or used a plastic product? Wouldn't we prefer to rehabilitate these people to be active members of a better society? The problem is a system that rewards and privledges bad behaviour over good. Lie, cheat and oppress and you get rich, help, be honest and fight for human rights and you get zero. The problem is not the people the system!

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Dec 18, 2005 03:07 AM

umm..[r4d20]....totalitarianism is where the the ELITE bend the populace to THEIR will, and make THEM obey. I am proposing that the POPULACE bend the ELITE to THEIR will. Make the elite do as the people want them to do. I really hope you see the differnce.... I want Leftist who will GET OFF OF THEIR FRIGGING KNEES. Now get up off of your knees, [r4d20]. Quit licking the boots of the elite. Get mouthing their propaganda catchphrases ("ooooh, you're a totalitarian if you want to punish the elite for their crimes").

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 18, 2005 02:22 AM

"fascism by definition is a form of corporatism" Ok, how about we replace "facist" with "totalitarian scumbag". Both sum up the REAL "faux leftists" who are attracted to leftism out of a desire to hurt the people on top rather than help the people on the bottom.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Dec 18, 2005 01:56 AM

Hardly. You're just a facist with a different list of "people to kill". Vive Le Difference.. Oh, BTW, fascism by definition is a form of corporatism (check with Mussolini on that). I expressly am an enemy of corporations. See above where I call for trying CEOs for murder.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 18, 2005 00:49 AM

"THAT is a Left with BALLS!" Or a left with Gas Chambers. Whatever. Same thing. This is amazing. You say you want to make a better world, but youre first OOB is to shoot 10,000 people? Leftist? Hardly. You're just a facist with a different list of "people to kill".

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Occupy_iowa_city_rally

Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Street, Paul at Dec 17, 2005 23:34 PM

I suspect there's some very international law that could make dominant ("mainstream") U.S. war media chiefs formally eligible for extreme (maybe even capital) punishment for their pivotal role in aiding and abetting Bush's monumentally illegal war of aggression on Iraq. No, such proceedings are not going to occur but calling for the chiefs' heads is more than mere "drivel" in my opinion. I reiterate that I only want dominant media sociologically decapitated...I want their murderous roles ended. I doubt all that many people (redneck, radical, or whatever) will follow cryofan's call for public executions (!), but the call is less morally inconsistent with western law and tradition than some might wish to acknowledge.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Dec 17, 2005 21:20 PM

I wrote: And if found guilty, I want to see them publicly executed, to help change our culture. All in accordance with the rule of law. If we need to change a few laws to do that, I propose we do so. and in response, you wrote: Cyrofan - you want to execute people publicly in accordance with the rule of law? Talk about a contradictory statement! What do you mean by your comment?

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Bok, Yakov at Dec 17, 2005 20:24 PM

Paul, you have talked extensively about writing a report for the Urban League and then going to a specific University in DeKalb. Your Z-net profile says as much. Don't flatter yourself by thinking I'm "stalking" you. Cyrofan - you want to execute people publicly in accordance with the rule of law? Talk about a contradictory statement! Yes, we should get rid of lobbyists - NOW, The Sierra Club, the UAW, MADD - all those evil lobbyists that are corrupting our system and causing wars. I am utterly convinced that Z-net supporters do not have a clue of how "the system" works other than spewing "The evil corporations lord over us all!"

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Dec 17, 2005 19:59 PM

I am not talking about millions of people here. I am talking about 98% of the politicians and lobbyists in washington, the elite media, the megacorps CEOs, the plutocrats, the major nonprofit foundations/thinktanks management. What is the total? 10 thousand maybe? THESE are the elite that drive America, the top of the dominance hierarchy. They drive the culture-evolution/propaganda machine that steers the American livestock. THey are responsible for this latest of many wars that has killed tens of thousands. I call that mass murder. And they are murderers. All for the sake of opening markets. I want to see them tried in a court of law for these murders. And if found guilty, I want to see them publicly executed, to help change our culture. All in accordance with the rule of law. If we need to change a few laws to do that, I propose we do so. Same thing goes for their crimes in healthcare extortion here in America. 18000 American citizens die every year who would not die in Sweden, etc, because we have no healthcare system. All for profit. I call that murder. Guess what I want done about it. Same thing goes for their crimes with respect to mass immigration and the corresponding flooding of the American labor supply. Flooding the job market has taken much money from millions of lower class Americans, and has obviously shortened their lives. All for profit. I call it murder. Guess what I want done about it. THAT is how the TRUE left should think! THAT is a Left with BALLS!

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 17, 2005 04:02 AM

"Yes, I am tiring of your snide commentary" Yeah, saying Norwegians rock is no damn snide. as for calling for heads of the "media masters" - such drivel deserves snide commentary.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Cranch, James at Dec 16, 2005 20:57 PM

Well, it may be inflammatory and devoid of content, but I don't think anyone heeds it. (Even if they did, I don't think I'd be in favour of censoring him).

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Occupy_iowa_city_rally

Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Street, Paul at Dec 16, 2005 19:44 PM

Never mentioned a SPECIFIC EMPLOYER. Never. "Yakov Bok" (name taken from a character in a Bernard Malamud novel)must be stalking me. How pathetic. And the rest of this brief note is a lovely piece of vicious right-wing slander. Now I think the case for banning this fellow is unimpeachable. This really ought to do it, finally, one would think and hope.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Bok, Yakov at Dec 16, 2005 17:42 PM

Let me just remind everyone that Paul opened up his employement situation to the board by saying he's no longer employed at the Urban League. So, are you going to tell what happened? Did you realize your fight for Utopia is futile so you moved on the a university where you can attempt to brainwash young minds just like good socialists before you like the Nazi Youth and Pol Pot's reeducation camps? Are you working towards tenure so no matter what type of crap you spew you'll always have a job? What could be more socialist than that? G-d bless the safety net.

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Occupy_iowa_city_rally

Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Street, Paul at Dec 16, 2005 05:42 AM

...and of pseudo-enigmatic know-it-all "capitalist" cynics with bizarre and anonymous cyber-handles. But in all seriousness, I personally only require sociological decapitation: abandonmnent of their vicous and murderous role in enabling imperialist mass murder in the name of freedom...and you know... all that other sort of leftist rot that you know so much better than to embrace, 20d42. Quit doing all that and they can retire to wherever old war propagandists go and cryofan's guillotinues (sp) can go back into the people's communal sheds. "Broadly defined groups of unamed people"? Just don't follow you there, 4r20d: it's a fairly simple matter of basic business and media research to identify the key names in top publishing, editing, owning, and supervising functions of a private congomerate media structure that becomes ever more and more concentrated over time. Yes, I am tiring of your snide commentary if you don't mind me saying so...or even if you do, old 0r4d2.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 16, 2005 05:10 AM

" who is right to call for the heads of the media masters." and we've moved on to calling for the deaths of broadly defined groups of unamed people.

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Occupy_iowa_city_rally

Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Street, Paul at Dec 16, 2005 04:46 AM

Bok's last query is truly creepy. That guy'll make you want to take a disenfectant shower. VWood you are right but please pay the writer of that sentence no mind: he revels in his irritating know-it-all "capitalist" (as self-described) cynicism, which finds good fuel in the rantings of cryofan, who is right to call for the heads of the media masters.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Victor_wood, Vwood at Dec 16, 2005 02:02 AM

"Or, more likely, they just dont want to waste their time arguing a hopelss case. Right or wrong it will never happen so get over it and move on." Why do we always assume this to be a hopeless case? Why are these leaders above the law? Why can Bush and the Congress of the United States and other lesser powers send young men and women somewhere to die without justification? Why can such people wreak havoc upon men, women and children across the world - killing whole families, maiming thousands, denying people food, medicine, shelter and all the other needs of life? Why can such people conduct covert wars that train, equip, and fund death squads that overthrow any country's duly elected democratic system that shows some independance from US "interests". Why? But more importantly, why can't we argue about that? Why can't I say clearly, freely and publicly without intimidation, "This is wrong. It is time for these folks to be stopped."? Why is that a waste of time? Why?

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Bauerly, Mtbrad at Dec 15, 2005 06:02 AM

Funny how guys like yakov tie the political and economic system together when they want to, then other times claim that the two have nothing to do with each other in the US system (see his comments on fascism and socialism). Talk about your cherry pickin. Corporate captialism is a very, very large part of US political economy. Counting the number of small firms does little to show the power and influence of corporate capitalism in the US. How about if you compare corporate donations to political campains and parties in the US vs. canada. As for the UN, you might want to look at the structure of the UN. The veto power of the SC sort of makes all discusion of supporting certain countries moot. If not for US blockage, Isreal would have more resolutions against it than Iraq and all other members of the "axis" combined. The removal of the sanctions against was blocked or threatened to be blocked numerous times by the US. Paul your employment decisions are non of our business. Why don't you tell us all about your work Yakov?

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Dec 15, 2005 03:23 AM

I am not for capital punishment for ordinary people, just for the elite. It is needed in order to initiate cultural change away from dominance hierarchies....

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Bok, Yakov at Dec 15, 2005 02:55 AM

Paul, I said you hate the American political AND economic system. Corporate capitalism is a small, small part of that. In fact, compare the number of small businesses in America employing under 50 people, to the number in Canada. I think you'll be suprised. I didn't say anything about supporting the Tribune's editorial staff. I said read the facts. Big difference. You're inconsistent with your support of the UN. You're for it when it appears to be against the U.S., but against the UN when it supports the U.S. That is Cherry Picking. Please tell us the problems you had with the Urban League.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Dec 14, 2005 23:57 PM

yeah, paul, whatever. But I notice you did not respond to my main point: if what the media (and the politicians) are doing is really really bad (and I think it is), why are you not calling for them to be indicted and tried as mass murderers? I am.

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Occupy_iowa_city_rally

Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Street, Paul at Dec 14, 2005 20:36 PM

I have no idea who took r4d20's initial or second comment seriously. It certainly wasn't me. I would have to say that 98.9 percent of what yakov chronically writes on this blog is utterly moronic. I can't love America if I don't love corporation capitalism. Ok, right. BTW, such criterion would make Jefferson and Madison incapable of loving the nation they helped "found." It's "cherry-picking" to point that the sanctions were U.S. led. Ok, right. Good one. I live in Chicago so therefore I must support the Chicago Tribune's take on the Iraq War. Smart! And I guess if I lived in Lenningrad in the 1980s I'd have had to accept Pravda's take on the USSR war in Afghanistan, right? Good Lord. cryofan you are just completely out of control with this the "faux left hates rednecks" thesis. It's just gotten bizarre. Blog commenter bwong brilliantly explained at least twice that YOU are the one with the terrible image of the white male working-class as racists and mysognists, etc I don't live in Chicago anymore; had some issues with my former big city overseers there and my next job was out of that town, which I love even (imagine) while I hate its corporate-dominated political economy and arrogant elites. I can chew gum and walk at one and the same time. And I will return to Chicago (in a sealed train, I hope) at the first signs of proletarian revolution there, when the true left radical rednecks prepare war-crimes trial of the Tribune's top managers.

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By Cryofan, Cryofan at Dec 14, 2005 02:18 AM

Or, more likely, they just dont want to waste their time arguing a hopelss case. Right or wrong it will never happen so get over it and move on. oh, darling, you are SO manly....

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 14, 2005 01:42 AM

"The American Left will not call for these urgently needed cultural corrective measure because the American left is a FAUXLeft set up for failure by having been ideological neutured by the largesse of elite-funded think tanks and foundations" Or, more likely, they just dont want to waste their time arguing a hopelss case. Right or wrong it will never happen so get over it and move on.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Dec 14, 2005 01:34 AM

Normalizing Evil on the Local News by Paul Street Local news authorities should.... stop normalizing an unjust and disastrous war.... You're right, it is NOT acceptable. In fact, like all the other American wars, consent was manufactured from the public by way of lies by the political and media elite. And they maintain just enough power to continue this slaughter by normalizing it. But why isn't the American left calling for these mass murdering political and media elite to face indictment and trial for murder? Why isn't the Left calling for the death sentence upon conviction in a court of law for these normalizers? I call them murderers, and I want them to be indicted, tried, convicted and sentencd for these mass murders associated with the Iraq war. The American Left will not call for these urgently needed cultural corrective measure because the American left is a FAUXLeft set up for failure by having been ideological neutured by the largesse of elite-funded think tanks and foundations. This fauxleft has been feminized ideologically. Only feminine attributes are associated with the American left in the public eye, by and large. People need someone to hate. THe elite set up a fauxleft and gave them the redneck to hate. If you want a TRUE left, hate the elite, like the ones that normalize this war. And call for them to be tried for murder in accordance with the rule of law. If you really are a leftist, that is...

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Bok, Yakov at Dec 13, 2005 23:13 PM

Cryofan - a central tenant of the Nazi economy was a government controlled/directed welfare state. To say corporation were behind Nazi evils is to not understand economics or history. Yes, in Nazi Germany there were corporations, but the government told them what to produce, when to produce, and how to produce. That is straight up socialism. If you think corporation are evil, one has to question your understanding of corporations. For every one Enron, there are literally thousands of law abiding honest corporatioins, from a mom and pop corner store to a solo practioning doctor, to a manufacturer employing hundreds. Don't forget, many charities are corporations. Does that make them evil as well?

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Cryofan, Cryofan at Dec 13, 2005 17:34 PM

Hitler wasn't the force behind nazi germany, but instead corporatism. I think he was just their best front man to get the people united and working and doing things that provided return on investment, another cycle of destruction and rebuilding. Like the cycle of locust-driven destruction or something...

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 13, 2005 08:01 AM

Norwegians. Don't make the mistake of taking my comments too seriously.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Bok, Yakov at Dec 13, 2005 05:27 AM

Paul, if you hate the American political and economic system, how can you say that you love America? Take those away and America ceases to exist. You as a "historian" should know that. Loving baseball hardly makes one American. Afterall, the Soviets claimed to have invented baseball. It's also interesting how you appeal to international rule when, in your view, it works against America, i.e., your interpretation and application of international law, but when it works against you, you disfavor it, i.e., the UN sanctions against Iraq which you lable "U.S. led." You are cherry picking. Further, if you take the international law that you appeal to, i.e, the UN, in conjunction with Gulf War 2 being an extention of Gulf War 1, the U.S. is acting in accordance with the UN. Your own previous posts have led to the UN documents from Gulf War 1 that justify current U.S. action. Yet, you ignore them. Finally, you live in Chicago. Did you not read the Tribune's series on the War? The facts were laid out, nothing was omitted. Thank G-d you are not serving on a jury, otherwise, justice would never be served with your interpretation.

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Street, Paul at Dec 13, 2005 05:05 AM

Keir, knowing what we know in retrospect, yes, there were reasons not to engage in that campaign. Howard Zinn says this now (and for some time) and he was a US bombadier over Germany (must have flown numerous death-defying missions) I believe. At the times, though, I imagine I would have been in there. No reason to think I would have had any more ability to see through it all than Zinn or for that matter than the uncle I never met. But then this is all counterfactual. I had a Marxist English history professor who had been a precocious leftist (a Communist by his teen years) and who enlisted with U.S. forces as a very young man precisely to fight German fascism. He recalled that not a single one of his fellow troops shared his ideological motivations for fighting in the "good war." As he remembered it, "all they wanted to do in Europe was to get drunk and to get laid." Until these troops opened up a major concentration camp (Dachau, I believe)and witnessed the Nazi's barbarism first hand, that is. At that moment, he recalled, they started shooting every Nazi they could see. Don't follow r4d20 even at the level of knowing who he means by "we."

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Re: "You Seem Like a Good Candidate to Live in Norway"

By Tolsen1, R4d20 at Dec 13, 2005 03:50 AM

Thats right. We kick ass.

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