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Forum Post Waters: Nitpicky Bullshit

Forum Post, June, 29 2011 Joseph Waters

I have to say that I think a lot of the debate over Parecon is just nitpicky bullshit. I consider myself an Anarchist, but of the old-school variety (think Kropotkin, Goldman, Berkman, Malatesta, Rocker, etc.). I have no problem with Parecon, exce...

Forum Post Albert: Re: Re: Anarchist concerns

Forum Post, June, 27 2011 Michael Albert
Albert's ZSpace page

In response to your friend - a bit briefly, given that I will be posting a full article soon …   > I agree with some of these criticisms but I find that a lot of them seem to be strawmen, so I want to sharpen the ones that I t...

Forum Post Albert: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist concerns

Forum Post, June, 27 2011 Michael Albert
Albert's ZSpace page

Okay, since I am working on the longer essay, I will be very brief, and a bit more "assertive." Do you agree that if some anarchists are turned off by not using anarchist lingo - that is a sad commentary on them, not on parecon? It ough...

Forum Post Guerin: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rewards encourage behavior

Forum Post, June, 27 2011 Jon Guerin
Guerin's ZSpace page

Yes there are other ways to find your talent.  However, I still think it's a good idea to encourage people to do what they are talented at and to produce quality work.  We can apply the same logic for onerous work to quality work....

Forum Post Weber: Re: Re: Re: Rewards encourage behavior

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Mark Weber
Weber's ZSpace page

My one-cent-worth: how did Isaac Newton, or Beethoven, or Spinoza, or Babe Ruth, find out what they were good at? It seems to me that the best way to encourage people to "find" their respective talents is to provide to everyone exposure (as in ed...

Forum Post St. John: Re: Re: Anarchist concerns

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Patrick St. John
St. John's ZSpace page

Sorry if I'm piling on here, but I'm interested in you writing the best essay possible -- I received another message from a fellow comrade, posted below! ------ My name is also Patrick, from Western Mass and hopefully familiar enough wit...

Forum Post Guerin: Re: Re: Job Complex Limits

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Jon Guerin
Guerin's ZSpace page

That sounds good.  Sorry for my misunderstanding.  My mistake.  Thanks for the clarification.

Forum Post Guerin: Re: Re: Abuse of Power

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Jon Guerin
Guerin's ZSpace page

I am a human being, and I represent myself.  Feel free to ignore or comment on whatever you like based on the merits of the idea.  If it makes no sense or doesn't seem worthwhile, then ignore it.  I have lots of ideas and am cre...

Forum Post Guerin: Re: Re: Rewards encourage behavior

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Jon Guerin
Guerin's ZSpace page

You are assuming people will want to do what they are talented at.  My point is that people may not know what they are talented at, and people do not always want to do what they are talented at for whatever reason. Thus, it is in the ...

Forum Post Evans: Re: Anarchist concerns

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Mark Evans
Evans's ZSpace page

(kind of off topic so sorry to stick my nose in here Mchael) Hi Patrick - thanks for highlighting the link to the LibCom / PPS-UK debate. I had no idea that LibCom had replied to my post.  If I remember rightly the person who set-up the exc...

Forum Post Albert: Re: Job Complex Limits

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Michael Albert
Albert's ZSpace page

Again, I just don't know if this is your concern - or you believe it is an anarchist concern, or what... Briefly, people can work all over the place, so long as they can fit into production processes intelligently - that is to say, hold coher...

Forum Post Albert: Re: Abuse of Power

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Michael Albert
Albert's ZSpace page

I am not sure if you are raising your views, or just views... I don't think any anarchist has ever said anything like this - so I may not add it to the list. If it is your views, and you want a reply, then after the reply essay, I guess raise...

Forum Post Albert: Re: Rewards encourage behavior

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Michael Albert
Albert's ZSpace page

This will all be dealt with - but meanwhile, two things to note. (1) The determination of the onerousness of work is done by assessing the work, socially, not the experience of a particular person doing it. For me, doing surgery would be the worst...

Forum Post Albert: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist concerns

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Michael Albert
Albert's ZSpace page

The thing I find most strange, honestly, about all the concerns is that while for various folks who feel them  - not you, I suspect - they are deep and strong enough to cause the rejection of the vision - often quite forcefully - for those sa...

Forum Post Albert: Re: Re: Anarchist concerns

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Michael Albert
Albert's ZSpace page

I agree with you that some of - in fact in my view pretty much all of - the criticisms are confused, or misinformed about parecon in the first place, or wrong in simple ways...but that you or I feel that way about some, doesn't mean no one fin...

Forum Post Albert: Re: LibCom's renumeration criticism

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Michael Albert
Albert's ZSpace page

You are quite right - it gives one a feeling of reaching so hard to find something to disagree with that one becomes attached to claims one would otherwise easily dismiss. This is true for a good many of the concerns folks raise...or so it seems t...

Forum Post St. John: Re: Anarchist concerns

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Patrick St. John
St. John's ZSpace page

I just was emailed some additional comments from a friend, so I'm posting them below, unedited. Thanks again! -- I agree with some of these criticisms but I find that a lot of them seem to be strawmen, so I want to sharpen the ones that I th...

Forum Post Guerin: Job Complex Limits

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Jon Guerin
Guerin's ZSpace page

Why limit the mixing of desirable and undesirable work to a job complex?  Let's say I'm an engineer who works indoors most of the time, but I enjoy the outdoors.  I'd prefer to do yardwork in the park over sweeping ...

Forum Post Guerin: Abuse of Power

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Jon Guerin
Guerin's ZSpace page

How does parecon prevent abuse of power?  Decentralizing decision making is good, but this only goes so far.  Having those effected by the decisions vote is not enough protection against abuse.  Democratic councils can and will be m...

Forum Post Guerin: Rewards encourage behavior

Forum Post, June, 26 2011 Jon Guerin
Guerin's ZSpace page

Rewards encourage behavior.  Just because people want to be rewarded does not mean they are being greedy or unreasonable.  People do things for all kinds of reasons, so it's best to reward people to encourage positive behavior.&nb...

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